COBBETT'S
DURING THE
SECOND SESSION OF THE FOURTH PARLIAMENT
OF THE
UNITED KINGDOM OF GREAT BRITAIN AND IRELAND,
AND OF THE
KINGDOM OF GREAT BRITAIN THE TWENTY-FIRST
Appointed to meet at Westminster, the Twenty-first Day of January, in the Forty-eighth Year of the Reign of His Majesty King GEORGE the Third, Annoque DominiOne Thousand Eight Hundred and Eight.
VOL. XI.
COMPRISING THE PERIOD
BETWEEN THE 11TH OF APRIL AND THE 4TH OF JULY, 1808.
LONDON:
PRINTED BY T. C. HANSARD, PETERBOROUGH-COURT, FLEET-STREET.
PUBLISHED BY R. BAGSHAW, BRYDGES-STREET, COVENT GARDEN; AND SOLDBY J. BUDD, PALL-MALL; J. FAULDER, NEW BOND-STREET; H. D. SYMONDS,PATERNOSTER-ROW; BLACK, PARRY, AND KINGSBURY, LEADENHALL-STREET; AND J. ARCHER, DUBLIN.
1808.
TABLE OF CONTENTS TO
I. DEBATES IN THE HOUSE OF LORDS.
II. DEBATES IN THE HOUSE OF COMMONS.
III. ACCOUNTS.
IV. KING'S SPEECHES.
V. KING'S MESSAGES.
VI. PETITIONS.
VII. PROTESTS.
VIII. REPORTS.
IX. TREATIES.
X. LISTS.
I. DEBATES IN THE HOUSE OF LORDS.
Page
1808. April 11. DEBATE on the Roman Catholic Petition
1
1808. April 12. DEBATE on the Indictment Bill
30
DEBATE on the Roman Catholic Petition
30
DEBATE on the Offices in Reversion Bill
31
1808. April 29. DEBATE on Danish Vessels detained previous to Hostilities
86
1808. May 2. DEBATE on the Debtors Bill
99
1808. May 10. DEBATE on the Offices in Reversion Bill
139
1808. May 11. DEBATE on the Scotch Judicature Bill
142
1808. May 12. DEBATE on the King's Message respecting the Duchess of Brunswick
158
DEBATE on the Offices in Reversion Bill
159
1808. May 13. DEBATE on the Debtors Bill
252
1808. May 16. DEBATE on the Indictment Bill
277
1808. May 17. DEBATE on Viscount Sidmouth's Motion respecting Danish Merchant Ships detained in British Ports
300
1808. May 19. DEBATE on the Marriage Indemnity Bill
414
DEBATE on the Indictment Bill
416
1808. May 20. DEBATE on the Earl of Lauderdale's Motion respecting Scotch Teinds
449
1808. May 23. DEBATE on the Marriage Indemnity Bill
488
1808. May 24. DEBATE on the Irish Customs Regulation Bill
539
DEBATE on the Indictment Bill 541.
1808. May 25. DEBATE on the Indictment Bill
544
1808. May 27. DEBATE on the Roman Catholic Petition
643
1808. May 30. DEBATE on the Roman Catholic Petition
706
DEBATE on the Orders in Council
707
DEBATE on the Indictment Bill
710
1808. June 13. DEBATE on Mr. Palmer's Claim
857
DEBATE on the Treaty with the King of Sicily
857
1808. June 14. DEBATE on Mr. Palmer's Claim
870
1808. June 16. DEBATE on the Bank of Ireland
901
1808. June 17. DEBATE on the Droits of Admiralty
912
DEBATE on the Local Militia Bill
914
1808. June 21. DEBATE on the Curates' Residence Bill
958
DEBATE on the Local Militia Bill
958
DEBATE on Mr. Palmer's Claim
959
1808. June 22. DEBATE on the Curates Residence Bill
975
DEBATE on the Bank of Ireland
976
1808. June 23. DEBATE on the Stamp Duties Bill
995
DEBATE on the Bank of Ireland Charter Bill
996
DEBATE on the Sugar Distillation Bill
998
1808. June 27. DEBATE on the Appropriation Act
1085
DEBATE on the Curates Residence Bill
1086
1808. June 28. DEBATE on the Curates Residence Bill
1093
1808. June 29. DEBATE on the Appropriation Act
1095
DEBATE on the Stamp Duties Bill
1096
1808. June 30. DEBATE on the Stamp Duties Bill
1106
DEBATE on the Buildings in Hyde Park
1111
DEBATE on the Curates Residence Bill
1111
DEBATE on the Grant to Maynooth College
1114
1808. July 1. DEBATE on the Orders in Council
1126
1808. July 4. DEBATE on the Affairs of Spain
1138
II. DEBATES IN THE HOUSE OF COMMONS.
1808. April 11. DEBATE on the Royal Naval Asylum
3
DEBATE on the Irish Supplies
8
DEBATE on the Budget
11
DEBATE on the Offices in Reversion Bill
18
1808. April 12. DEBATE on the Roman Catholic Petition
32
DEBATE on the Local Militia Bill
39
DEBATE on the Curates' Residence Bill
54
1808. April 13. DEBATE on Sugar Distillation
55
DEBATE on the Curates Residence Bill
61
DEBATE on Irish Protestant Charity Schools
63
1808. April 14. DEBATE on the Local Militia Bill
66
1808. April 26. DEBATE on the Irish Clergy Residence Bill
67
DEBATE on the Petition of the East India Company
68
1808. April 27. DEBATE on the Dead Bodies Interment Bill
79
DEBATE on the Fifth Military Report
80
DEBATE on the Cultivation of Flax in Ireland
80
DEBATE on the Irish Spirit Drawback Bill
81
DEBATE on the Irish Supplies
84
1808. April 29. DEBATE on the Paymaster General's Accounts Bill
87
DEBATE on the Maynooth College Grant
89
1808. May 2. DEBATE on the Local Militia Bill
100
1808. May 4. DEBATE on Annuities to the Scotch Judges
117
1808. May 5. DEBATE on the Assessed Taxes Bill
120
DEBATE on Maynooth College
121
1808. May 6. DEBATE on the Affairs of the East India Company
129
1808. May 9. DEBATE on the Crown Lands
131
DEBATE on the Expedition to the Dardanelles
131
DEBATE on the State of the Rochfort Squadron
132
1808. May 10. DEBATE on the King's Message respecting the Duchess of Brunswick
141
DEBATE on the demised Revenues of the Crown
141
DEBATE on the Curates Residence Bill
141
1808. May 11. DEBATE on the King's Message relating to the Duchess of Brunswick
142
DEBATE respecting the Westminster Election—Case of Privilege
143
DEBATE respecting Dr. Duigenan
145
1808. May 12. DEBATE on Mr. Palmer's Claim
161
1808. May 13. DEBATE on the Crown Lands
259
1808. May 13. DEBATE on the Life Annuity Plan
261
DEBATE on the Local Militia Bill
274
1808. May 16. DEBATE on the Irish First Fruits Bill
277
DEBATE on the Expedition to the Dardanelles
285
DEBATE on Mr. Palmer's Claim
289
1808. May 17. DEBATE on the Conduct of Marquis Wellesley—Carnatic Question
315
1808. May 18. DEBATE on Mr. Palmer's Claim
394
DEBATE on the Criminal Law Bill
395
DEBATE respecting the Westminster Election—Case of Privilege
403
DEBATE on the Sugar Distillation Bill
404
DEBATE on the Local Militia Bill
406
1808. May 19. DEBATE on the Parish Settlement Bill
423
DEBATE on East India Papers
424
DEBATE on Wages of Journeymen Cotton Weavers
425
DEBATE on the Sugar Distillation Bill
428
1808. May 20. DEBATE on Mr. Palmer's Claim
473
DEBATE on the Expedition to the Dardanelles
475
1808. May 23. DEBATE on the Roman Catholic Petition
489
DEBATE on the Sugar Distillation Bill
493
1808. May 25. DEBATE respecting the Westminster Election—Case of Privilege
544
DEBATE on the Roman Catholic Petition
549
1808. May 26. DEBATE on the Fifth Military Report—Medical Department of the Army
639
1808. May 27. DEBATE on the Life Annuity Bill
697
DEBATE on the Bank of Ireland
700
DEBATE on the Sugar Distillation Bill
702
1808. May 30. DEBATE on the Suspension of the Habeas Corpus Act in Ireland
712
DEBATE on the Small-Pox Prevention Bill
713
DEBATE on the Charter of the Bank of Ireland
714
1808. May 31. DEBATE on the Bank of Ireland Charter Bill
720
DEBATE on the Conduct of Sir Home Popham
721
1808. June 1. DEBATE on the Budget and Loan
764
DEBATE on the Conduct of Marquis W'ellesley—Resumed Debate on the Carnatic Question
767
1808. June 2. DEBATE on the Scotch Judges Annuity Bill
798
DEBATE on the Military Commissioners Bill
802
DEBATE on the London Vaccine Institution
803
DEBATE on the Affairs of the East India Company
804
DEBATE on the Bank of Ireland Bill
807
1808. June 3. DEBATE on the Promissory Notes Bill
810
DEBATE on Courts Martial
811
DEBATE on the Sugar Distillation Bill
816
DEBATE on the Local Militia Bill
824
1808. June 8. DEBATE on the Plymouth Dock Police Bill
828
DEBATE on the Irish Budget
829
DEBATE on the Curates Residence Bill
833
1808. June 9. DEBATE on Vaccine Inoculation
841
DEBATE on Irish Tythes
844
1808. June 10. DEBATE on Publicans Licenses
848
DEBATE on the Local Militia Bill
849
1808. June 13. DEBATE on the Affairs of the East India Company
859
DEBATE on the Sicilian Subsidy
861
DEBATE on the Improvements in Westminster
863
DEBATE on the Affairs of Spain
865
DEBATE on the Sugar Distillation Bill
867
1808. June 14. DEBATE respecting the King's Proctor
870
DEBATE on the Curates Residence Bill
876
1808. June 15. DEBATE on the Criminal Law
877
DEBATE on the Affairs of Spain
886
1808. June 15. DEBATE on Foreign Property in the Funds
898
DEBATE on the Finance Committee
907
DEBATE on the Commutation of Tythes in Ireland
908
DEBATE on the Expiring Laws Bill
911
1808. June 17. DEBATE on the Copy-right Bill
918
DEBATE on the Naval Asylum
919
DEBATE on the Conduct of Marquis Wellesley—Resumed Debate on the Carnatic Question
921
1808. June 20. DEBATE on the Scotch Local Militia Bill
947
DEBATE on the Curates Residence Bill
956
1808. June 21. DEBATE on the Scotch Judicature Bill
973
DEBATE on the Assessed Taxes Bill
974
1808. June 22. DEBATE on the Copy-right Bill
988
DEBATE on the Oyster Fishery Bill
993
1808. June 23. DEBATE on Army Clothing
1002
DEBATE on Mr. Palmer's Claim
1010
1808. June 24. DEBATE on the State of the Empire
1042
DEBATE on the State of the West India Merchants
1056
DEBATE on Mr. Palmer's Claim
1062
DEBATE on the Scotch Judicature Bill
1062
1808. June 25. DEBATE on Mr. Palmer's Claim
1084
1808. June 29. DEBATE on Mr. Alexander Davison
1096
DEBATE on the Finance Committee
1098
DEBATE on the Dismissal of the late Mr. Dalrymple
1102
DEBATE on the Buildings in Hyde Park
1104
DEBATE on Corporal Punishments in the Army
1115
DEBATE on the Buildings in Hyde Park
1122
1808. July 2. DEBATE on the Sugar Distillation Bill
1130
DEBATE on the Salary of the Chairman of Ways and Means
1130
DEBATE on the Prisons in Ireland
1131
DEBATE on the Dismissal of the late Mr. Dalrymple
1134
1808. June 4. DEBATE on the Affairs of Spain
1141
III. ACCOUNTS.
FINANCE ACCOUNTS of GREAT BRITAIN, for the Year ended 5th Jan. 1808.
CLASS I. Public Income i
II. Consolidated Fund iii
III. Arrears and Balances xi
IV. Trade and Navigation xiii
V. Public Expenditure xv
VI. Public Funded Debt xxxi
VII. Unfunded Debt xxxv
VIII. Disposition of Grants xxxvii
FINANCE ACCOUNTS of IRELAND, for the Year ended 5th of January, 1808.
CLASS I. Public Income xxxix
II. Consolidated Fund xliii
III. Arrears and Balances xlv
IV. Trade and Navigation xlv
V. Public Expenditure xlvii
VI. Public Funded Debt lv
VII. Unfunded Debt lvii
VIII. Disposition of Grants lvii
Account of the Amount of all Exemptions granted to Foreigners, in respect of the Duty on Dividends in the various Funds of Great Britain lxv
IV. KING'S SPEECHES.
SPEECH of the Lords Commissioners at the close of the Session
1139
V. KING'S MESSAGES.
KING'S Message relating to the Duchess of Brunswick
141
KING'S Message respecting the King of Sicily
845
KING'S Message respecting a Vote of Credit
858
VI. PETITIONS:
PETITION from the East India Company
68
PETITION respecting the Report of the Distillery Committee 253, 392, 394,
412
PETITION against the Curates' Residence Bill
257
PETITION of the Roman Catholics of Ireland
489
VII. PROTESTS.
PROTEST against the Rejection of the Roman Catholic Petition
695
PROTEST against the Bank of Ireland Charter Bill
996
PROTEST against the Sugar Distillation Bill
1114
VIII. REPORTS.
Appendix
FIRST REPORT from the Committee on the Distillation of Sugar and Molasses, Lxxxi
SECOND REPORT from the Committee on the Distillation of Sugar and Molasses xcviii
THIRD REPORT from the Committee on the Distillation of Sugar and Molasses cii
FOURTH REPORT from the Committee on the Distillation of Sugar and Molasses cvii
FIRST REPORT from the Committee on the Laws relating to Lotteries cxxv
SECOND REPORT from the Committee on the Laws relating to Lotteries cxxvii
THIRD REPORT from the Committee of Finance cxxxiv
IX. TREATIES.
TREATY with the King of Sicily
845
X. LISTS.
LIST of the Minority, in the House of Commons, April 29, on the Grant to Maynooth College
98
LIST of the Minority, in the House of Commons, May 25, on the Roman Catholic Petition
638
LIST of the Minority, in the House of Lords, May 27, on the Roman Catholic Petition
695
LIST of the Minority, in the House of Commons, May 30, on Sir J. Newport's Motion respecting the Bank of Ireland
717
LIST of the Minority, in the House of Commons, on the Carnatic Question
947
LIST of Public Acts passed in the Second Session of the Fourth Parliament of Great Britain and Ireland
Appx.
During the Second Session of the Fourth Parliament of the
United Kingdom of Great Britain and Ireland, and of
the Kingdom of Great Britain the Twenty-first, appointed
to meet at Westminster, the Twenty-first Day of January,
One Thousand Eight Hundred and Eight, in the Forty-eighth
Year of the Reign of His Majesty King GEORGE the Third.
1808
1
HOUSE OF LORDS.
Monday, April 11, 1808, 1808.
[ROMAN CATHOLIC PETITION.]
Lord Grenville
presented a Petition from the Roman Catholics of Ireland, praying that the disabilities respecting them might be removed; which was read at the table. His lordship stated, that there was an informality attached to it, in consequence of some of the names signed to it, not having been written by the persons bearing those names, although written by their authority. He believed, however, that petitions had been received where an informality of this kind existed, but where, as in this case, there were other names to the petition, signed by the parties themselves. He moved, that the Petition do lie on the table, and stated, that he should also move, that the lords be summoned for the 11th of May, with the view of then moving the consideration of this petition.
The Earl of Moira
regretted, that upon this occasion, he found himself compelled to differ in opinion with his noble friend. His sentiments with respect to the object of the petition had been declared and were well known; but when parliament had so recently decided, and when so many persons stood pledged upon this subject, he could not concur in the propriety of discussing it in the present session. He thought, that the urging at this moment of these claims, tended rather to retard
2
The Lord Chancellor
observed, with respect to the informality, that where such informality existed, the reception of the petition was a matter of courtesy.—The Petition was ordered to lie on the table.
Lord Grenville
observed, with regard to what had fallen from his noble friend, that he had not advised the presenting this petition; neither had he given any opinion respecting it, his advice not having been asked. He had stated, on a former occasion, his opinion, that it would not be expedient for the catholics to petition at the present moment; they, however, might be influenced by circumstances of which neither he nor any one besides themselves could judge. All he was anxious to state was, that he had not advised the presenting of this petition, neither had he given any opinion against presenting it; nor did he mean now to give any opinion on the subject. Perhaps, if he had known the circumstances that led to the petition, he might have thought it expedient that it should be presented. The petition however having been presented, he should call the attention of the house to the question, whether it was not fit that the matter of the petition should become a subject of discussion. Understanding that the 13th of May would be more convenient than the 11th, he moved that the lords be summoned on the 13th.—Ordered.
3
HOUSE OF COMMONS.
Monday, April 11, 1808.
[ROYAL NAVAL ASYLUM.]
Sir Charles Pole
rose, in pursuance of his notice, to move a certain Resolution relative to the above institution, somewhat similar to that which he had lately proposed as to Greenwich Hospital. He knew it would be objected to what he was about to propose, that this charitable institution had been originally supported by private voluntary donations, but it appeared to him to be now under the immediate management of government, the more especially as parliament had been called on to vote considerable sums of money for its support. No doubt the private donations from other individuals were very important, but still there appeared no reason for separating its mode of management from that of Greenwich Hospital, as described in the Charter. Here the hon. baronet gave a statement of the most important public and private contributions to this Asylum. He observed, that a very large portion of that called "private contribution" was given from the Patriotic Fund, which was avowedly for the purpose of relieving the distresses of the relations of those who fell in the naval battles of their country. Surely, then, the offices of this charitable and naval institution could not be better bestowed than upon those who had survived these battles, but unfortunately were disabled. The sum subscribed by the Patriotic Fund amounted to 40,000
l.
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4
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5
Mr. Rose
said, he was happy to concur with any motion that was made for the benefit of those who served in the navy, or the near relations of those who fell in battle; but he must inform the house, that the present motion was unnecessary; as the commissioners were framing regulations for the conduct of the Naval Asylum. Two years ago an account of the state of the Naval Asylum was laid before the house, and the hon. admiral now only came forward with a pompous parade of his complaints, though he never said any thing on the subject while he was himself one of the lords of the admiralty. The institution was established originally by voluntary subscription; and when it was taken under the protection of his majesty, and the duke of Cumberland was appointed president, it was then agreed to retain Dr. Clarke, who first suggested the idea of the institution, and two commissioners, at the request of the original subscribers. He declared that he was not personally acquainted with any of the parties, nor did he recommend a single person to any office, and for these reasons he moved the previous question.
Mr. Whitbread
said, if the right hon. gent, had imputed to his hon. friend the charge of having brought forward the present motion with that simplicity, manliness, and good sense which distinguished all his efforts in that house, it would have been a charge more likely to be credited than that of parade and ostentation. As to the motion itself, he could see no one ground for rejecting it. He thought it very strange, that a person who had been so active in informing against non-residents, should himself have been all the
6
Mr. Biddulph
said, that he had never heard of a transaction, that could with greater justice be termed a job, than the appointment of Dr. Clarke; but could not agree with his hon. friend on the floor in his expression of surprize, that the reverend doctor should himself prove to be one of the non-residents he had been so active in detecting; as it appeared to him to be nothing more than an illustration of the truth of the homely proverb, "set a thief to catch a thief."
Mr. Lockhart
entered into a vindication of the character and conduct, and appointment of Dr. Clarke, who, he said, was a gentleman of high respectability and accomplished manners; and such a man only was fit for the situation he filled, and the official intercourse he had to maintain. His employment, however, was not such as could be easily filled, as the hon. admiral stated. He had not only the disbursements of the charity to audit, but the accounts of the officers in every department. He had to prepare the estimates, to manage the contracts, and to examine the accounts of all the builders and other tradesmen employed. Besides, to his superintending care of this institution in its infancy, was its present existence owing; and his continuance in the situation which he held from the beginning, was at the special and stipulated recommendation of the private subscribers, who had contributed 40,000
l.
Mr. Windham
supported the motion. He said, an hon. member had given a very comical reason for the appointment of doctor Clarke, viz. that he had good will to the navy. Why, upon the same ground every man should become an auditor, for every one bore good will as well as the good doctor; it was said, however, that the doctor was concerned
7
The Chancellor of the Exchequer
observed, that at the commencement of the institution, it was made a point by the founders that Dr. Clarke should be placed in his present office; and it would be a little hard if he who was himself one of the first founders of this establishment should be himself precluded from all its advantages. An hon. gent. (Mr. Whitbread) thought a great point was gained for him by the motion for the residence of spiritual persons in Ireland, since he had found out that Dr. Clarke possessed livings to a great amount. This very bill should set the hon. gent, at ease, for by it Dr. Clarke would be reduced to the dilemma of either relinquishing his valuable livings, or of relinquishing the situation of auditor of the Naval Asylum.
Sir Charles Pole
said a few words in reply, in which he stated the case of a purser who had served a long time in the navy, and who certainly was full as competent to fill the situation of auditor as a doctor of divinity.—The house then divided, For the Resolution, 46; Against it, 71. Majority, 25.
8
[IRISH SUPPLIES.]
The Chancellor of the Exchequer
Mr. Foster
proposed the usual annual giants. He stated, that he would postpone any of them on reason assigned.
Mr. M. Fitzgerald
hoped he would postpone the whole, as the papers were not yet printed. He objected particularly to the grant of 1,200
l.
Mr. Foster
agreed with the right hon. member as to the irregularity of the distribution, and promised to attend to that subject; but this was merely for 250 copies for the use of the public offices. He saw no reason for postponing the whole of the propositions.—The grant was then agreed to.—On the proposition for grants to various clerks in public offices,
Mr. Biddulph
observed, that no statement had been made respecting their necessity. He thought that some explanation ought to have been given as to the insufficiency of the salaries of these officers, before these sums were voted by parliament.
Mr. Foster
said that these grants had been always made ever since he had been in parliament.
Colonel Barry
also stated, that the sums had been always allowed by the Irish parliament, and that the officers looked to them as part of their emoluments.
Mr. Biddulph
would not oppose them now, though he was not quite satisfied with the answer, and would inquire further into the subject.
Mr. Foster
observed, that the hon. gent, might find in the journals what these officers had done for the grants.
Mr. Tierney
said that the question was, whether their regular salaries were not a compensation for their trouble? If they were not, he thought that an addition to their salaries would be a better mode of rewarding them than these annual votes.— The grants were then agreed to.
Mr. Parnell
wished that the grant of 23,103
l.
9
Mr. Foster
hoped the hon. gent, did not wish to prevent this charitable institution from receiving the necessary supplies for the present year, because he objected to the principles on which it was founded. These might afterward undergo alterations, but the present grants were absolutely necessary.
Mr. Tierney
thought the matter might be compromised by granting a small supply for the present, and afterwards, when a larger supply came to be voted in another committee, the subject might be thoroughly investigated.
Dr. Duigenan
said, he did not fee] at all surprised to perceive the hon. gentlemen opposite anxious to oppose the prosperity of the Protestant establishment. This establishment was solely for deserted and helpless children, who were, in consequence of their forlorn condition, received into these schools, and educated in the Protestant religion. During the vice-royalty of the duke of Bedford, these schools had been subjected to the examination of a committee, by no means overstocked with Protestant zeal. Their report was highly favourable to the institution. The grant had been uniformly made, for 50 or 70 years back, without any objection. The catechism in use, he believed, was the usual Protestant catechism, set forth in the Rubric, and was calculated to correct the political errors of the Roman Catholics, which were founded on their monstrous religious tenets.
Mr. Parnell
said, the catechism was very different from that in common use. The first question in this catechism, he stated, was, 'What religion are you of?' To which the child was taught to reply, 'I am, thank God! a Protestant.' Such opinions were merely calculated to revive all those latent sparks of animosity, which, but for the culpable industry of some, might have long since been extinguished. The whole system of education in those schools, he maintained, was destructive to the peace and tranquillity of that people, who had been too long and too lately reminded of those mischievous and unfounded assertions, those envenomed calumnies, and antiquated stories, which had hitherto been employed most effectually as the means of exciting those against each other, whose natural benevolence of dis-
10
The Chancellor of the Exchequer
thought the opposition of the hon. member, even supposing he had the document to which he wished to refer the house now in his hand, perfectly irregular, since there could be no motion made in the committee for the reformation of the general establishment.
Mr. M. Fitzgerald
maintained, that the antiquity of these establishments and grants were alone but sorry reasons for their continuance. Many others, which had commenced nearly about the same time with these, loudly called for abolition. It was not the character of the lower order of Irish to neglect their children, nor were the Catholics of Ireland the most prone to commit this unnatural crime; they had at least the feelings and humanity of men, if they had not their political advantages. He maintained, that the children educated in these schools were not proper objects of charity. Their education and temporary support were too often made the means of purchasing them perhaps by the inadvertence of their parents, from the religion of their forefathers. Hence whatever pains might be taken, there was not above one-fifth of those who received their education in these schools, who were added to the number of the established church. It was, then, a great delusion held out to parliament to suppose the supplies yearly granted for this purpose were in any degree proportioned to the advantages the country received. In most Catholic and remote parts of Ireland, those schools had been much on the decline, while they had proportionally increased within the vicinity of Dublin.
Mr. Elliot
rose to justify the character of the board appointed under the government of the duke of Bedford. By enumerating some of the persons who composed that board, he thought he could justify them from any intentions hostile to the established religion. These were the primate of Ireland, the provost of Trinity
11
Dr. Duigenan
said, the evils of Ireland were of a particular description, and arose from the prejudices of the lower order, and the mischievous principles disseminated by misguided and depraved characters of the higher order. The publications of the day were fraught with the venom of party; and a late pamphlet published in Dublin by an association of priests, to the amount of 110, had set forth a detail of all the flagitious and criminal misrepresentations of the conduct of England to Ireland. When such extravagancies were committed without reprehension, he was almost surprised to hear there existed in Ireland an Attorney-General.
Mr. Parnell
thought these works, if they did exist, had been published by way of reprisals; many of a Very inflammatory nature having been published on the opposite side of the question, by the friends of the learned doctor. He had still, however, to congratulate the country, from the disposition betrayed by the learned doctor, that he did not fill the situation of Attorney-General for Ireland.—This Supply was also granted.
The house then resumed; the report was brought up, and ordered to be received to-morrow.
[BUDGET.]
The Chancellor of the Exchequer
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l.
l.
s.;
l.
l.
Mr. Biddulph
thought the arrangements for the service of the present year might and ought to be made without any additional taxes. He recommended the creation of a contingent fund by the sale of Crown-Lands, to which the public might become tenants. The sums for which Crown rents might be sold were almost inconceivable. One hundred pounds had been demanded of him for a rent of 8s. 9d. Such parts as might be sold to advantage might be disposed of, and the sum of 600,000
l.
[OFFICES IN REVERSION BILL.]
On the question for the third reading of the Bill,
Mr. Whitbread
said, that it had been the inclination of his mind to have opposed the third reading of this Bill, in order that the house might take another course,
19
l.
The Chancellor of the Exchequer
maintained, that in conniving, as the hon. gent. termed it, with his colleague in another house, he had only been actuated by a wish, that the house of lords should not completely defeat a bill which had been approved of by that, house. He saw no chance of its passing the house of lords without the amendment which had been proposed. If there was any thing improper, to the ideas of the hon. member, in the suggestion of that amendment to his colleague, he could only say, that he was not aware of any such feeling.
Mr. M. A. Taylor
expressed himself decidedly hostile to the present bill, because it did not, in his mind, tend to
20
Mr. Fuller
thought the house was not in a situation to give an opinion of what gentlemen on the other side would be at; at one time they were satisfied with the bill, now they were dissatisfied. It was impossible to understand their meaning. They had talked a great deal about places in reversion, and of the necessity of shutting the book. Why had not the minister of the day, to whom those gentlemen were attached, who received 24,000
l.
21
The Speaker
observed to the hon. gent, that lie must see the inconvenience resulting from allusions to former debates.
Mr. Fuller
proceeded. He thought there never was a time so ill calculated to bring forward such a subject. When the country had a minister who set himself forward as an honest man, which he certainly was, he could not help considering an opposition of this kind as the most unprincipled that ever existed. They only wished to set themselves up in the places of the present administration. (Much laughter from the opposition side of the house.) 'As for you,' said the hon. gent., 'I have known you these thirty years.'
The Secretary
at War opposed the bill, as not likely to produce any good effect whatever. It had been held up as the corner-stone of a system of reform which he was much afraid could never be realized; and it was a duty which the house peculiarly owed to themselves, by way of supporting their own honour and dignity, not to hold out hopes which must inevitably be disappointed. He had no doubt but the Committee of Finance had great merit, not only in the diligence of their researches, but in the acuteness with which they were desirous of entering upon the investigation of the public expenditure; yet he was of opinion, that no false hopes or expectations should be held out to the people at the present moment.
Mr. Lyttleton
alluded to the expressions of Mr. Fuller, who appeared to suppose that in his characteristic coarseness he monopolised in his own breast the whole political honesty of that house. With respect to the bill, it was the peculiar province and duty of parliament to regulate and watch over the distribution of the public money; to sec that it was not lavishly expended; and to be frequent in the exercise of those functions, which as the representatives of the people, were vested in them by the constitution. At this most important crisis, any thing which related to public economy was not unimportant. It became the legislature to institute inquiry, to stop abuses, and to prevent, as much as lay in their power, prodigality. For these reasons, he, as one delegated by the people, could not approve of the middle course which the house were now pursuing in adopting this bill—a bill which savoured more of prudence than of spirit. The
22
Mr. Fuller
here arose again, and exclaimed, that the words imputed to him by the hon. gent, had not been spoken. He had never said he possessed all the hones-
23
Mr. Lyttleton
made some observations, in a good-humoured tone, by way of reply to the last speaker; in which he observed, that the hon. gent, was undoubtedly possessed of every quality which was either agreeable, convincing, or persuasive. (A laugh.)
Mr. W. Smith
said he would support the present bill, rather than run the chance of losing it entirely. He observed, with much irony, upon the polite, urbane, and gentlemanly conduct of the hon. member who had that night been so often declared out or order by the chair.
Mr. Willoughby
spoke in favour of the bill.—If, would reflect honour on the hon. gent. who brought it in; and, if passed by the other house, would also add honour on the administration under whose auspices it was carried.
Lord Porchester
thought it better that the bill should be read a third time, and then such modifications as might be deemed necessary could be proposed.—[The bill was accordingly read a third time.]—The noble lord then proposed certain amendments, with the view of reconciling the bill to what was originally in the contemplation of the house. He should deplore any difference of opinion between that house and the house of lords; but they surely did not ask too much of their lordships in requesting that they would suspend their opinion for a season, and grant to the commons a sort of armistice, till the grounds on which they differed were explained. They were not to go to their lordships as sturdy beggars, who, if they could not get their petition granted in one shape were ready to accept of it in another. What he proposed was, that the word prohibit' should be restored in the preamble of the bill, instead of the word 'suspended,' and that the words 'with the view to inquiries now pending in the house of commons,' also in the preamble, be omitted. The only other amendment he should propose was one limiting the endurance of the bill to six weeks after the commencement of the next session of parliament, which, being more in unison with the former proceedings of that house, would be conceding less on their part, and would be desiring less on the part of the lords. He concluded by moving one of his amendments.
24
Mr. Bankes
should be always ready to bring forward the present measure when he saw any chance of succeeding in it; but he did not pledge himself to agitate it at all times, whether success was to be looked for or not. He should prefer the bill as it stood to an address to his majesty, as he should conceive the concurrence of the other house in the present hill went to pledge them to the principle of the measure. He was satisfied with having the practice suspended in the mean time, and hoped the period was not far distant, when he should be able to do a great deal more.
Mr. Robinson
thought the country would find themselves disappointed in the public advantages expected to be derived from the measure, which would not take off a single burthen.
Mr. Tierney
observed, that a noble lord had said that he did not wish to go like a beggar, with a club and crutch to the house of lords. Now, it was his wish, that having before gone with a club to that house, that noble lord, or any other member of that house, should not now be sent up there limping upon crutches, and begging alms of them in the name of that house. It was his wish that they should continue to express their sentiments, not captiously, or in a vexatious manner, but boldly, manfully, and constitutionally, as they were warranted in supporting the consistency of that house; that they should go hand in hand with the wishes of the country; and if this mode of proceeding should be found to fail, that an humble Address should be presented to the throne, where they would be sure of obtaining success; where no dark intrigue or unconstitutional influence could intervene. Where places were useful, they ought to be granted in possession only, because then the possessor and his capacity were known; whereas, if a useful place was granted in reversion, an idiot might rise from his cradle to inherit the office, or the places might revert, as was lately mentioned by a worthy baronet (sir J. Newport) from the son to the father, and the reversion be delayed so long that the father would be incapacitated by age to perform the duties of the office. Gentlemen could hardly mean to urge that useful places ought to be kept in reserve, in order that they might be filled by fools or dotards. On the other hand, where the place was unnecessary, no patriotic man, no man in his senses, in fact, would
25
Mr. Stephens
opposed the amendment of the noble lord in toto. It had by no means been yet proved that the practice of granting offices in reversion was injurious to the country, and it appeared to him to be at least a very questionable assertion to contend that it was so.—He maintained that the language lately used in parliament was calculated to intimidate and dispirit the people from bearing up against the storms with which we were now threatened. Nay, it was calculated to exasperate them against ministers and their sovereign. These were times of uncommon difficulty and danger, and therefore the king's prerogative ought to be strengthened, instead of being curtailed; that his majesty might meet the common danger with increased energy. These were not times in which to harass ministers with frivolous and nugatory debates.
Sir Francis Burdett
combated the arguments of the learned gentleman (Mr. Stephens), who having rebuked others for the temper shewn by them in this debate, had himself exhibited more of what was peculiarly denominated temper, than he had often witnessed in that house. Indeed, the whole speech of the learned gentleman seemed to have proceeded from it, consisting chiefly of reflections cast upon persons no longer in office, and its whole scope and tendency seemed to have that in view, rather than the question, or any of those important considerations na-
26
*
*
27
28
29
Mr. Windham,
did not think that the measure of abolishing Reversions would he so productive of advantage to the people as some of its warmest advocates seemed to suppose. The assertion of the hon. baronet, that it would be the commencement of reform, was to him no recommendation of it, knowing, as he did, the dreadful dangers which might ensue from misguided attempts at reformation, of which we had had sufficient examples in a neighbouring country. As to the corruption that was so generally asserted to exist among the higher orders, he contended that that corruption existed in an equal degree to the lower, and that the tree struck its roots as deep into the earth as it elevated its branches into the air.
Mr. Sheridan
should not have been provoked to say a word at so late an hour, by any thing but the extraordinary position which he had just heard from his right hon. friend. What! all corruption in the state was to be found only at the root! The people were the root, and from the people, then, sprung up all corruption! He must beg his right hon. friend to recollect that he had successively represented such a variety of places; whether the county of Norfolk, the city of Norwich, St. Mawe's, or Higham Ferrers, that even a memory like his, and such a known acquaintance with the constitution of parliament, could not well enable him to say of what place he was really the representative. His light hon. friend had chiefly insisted, that the root of corruption was to be traced only to the people. He would contend the very contrary. It was government that was the seducer; the people the seduced. The present question would put it to the test; and if his right hon. friend's principles were to be adhered to, it would only prove, that the drippings of the top of the tree were often the real cause of the branches of the branches, and the corruption of the root. Where root, branches, &c. all were undermined, could any fair fruit be after expected to blossom from such a ground?
30
HOUSE OF LORDS.
Tuesday, April 12, 1808.
[INDICTMENT BILL.]
Earl Stanhope
called the attention of the house to this bill, which he said purported to be a bill to amend the law, but which, in his opinion, tended to make it worse. He thought that part of the bill in particular which related to proceedings on information highly objectionable. He did not mean to debate the bill now; his object was, that a day should be fixed for the second reading, and that it should be fully discussed. He therefore moved; that the bill be read a 2nd time on the 16th of May, and that the lords be summoned.
Lord Holland
thanked his noble friend for bringing this subject forward; and although the part of the bill alluded to by his noble friend might not be exactly that on which he should found his objections, he yet must say, without now entering into the subject, that this bill was a great innovation upon the constitution; and he trusted when the day of discussion arrived, that those who supported the bill would be prepared to state to the house the reasons on which it was founded.—The bill was ordered to be read a 2nd time on the 16th of May, and the lords to be summoned.
[ROMAN CATHOLIC PETITION.]
The duke of Cumberland
acquainted the house, that he held in his hands a Petition from the lord mayor, aldermen, and corporation of the city of Dublin, praying that house not to acquiesce in the prayer of the Petition presented by the Roman Catholics of Ireland. His royal highness stated, that he had had this Petition for some time in his possession, and was then induced to present it, in consequence of the notice of an intended motion given on this subject last night.
Lord Auckland
declared, that had he been in the house at the time when the Catholic Petition was presented, he should have taken the opportunity of expressing the strong and sincere regret he felt at pressing such a subject again into public discussion. After its recent discussion, a discussion the most serious and conclusive that ever took place in the history of parliament, it was the declared sense of their lordships, by a great majority, not to acquiesce in the prayer of the petitioners; he could not but regret, that the same subject was again so precipitately pressed, before the attention of parliament.
31
Lord Holland
never could accede to the validity of such a position, that because, in former sessions of parliament, that house had come to a decision adverse to the views of a certain description of the king's subjects, therefore, that it operated as a bar to their future hopes and petitions. But what were the circumstances which particularly marked this case? It was true, that the house did not accede to the prayer of the former Petition, neither did it reject it altogether; the motion was set aside by the carrying of the previous question; and it must be in the recollection of his noble friend, and of the other noble lords who heard him, that many of those who then voted for the previous question, expressed themselves alone hostile to the time in which that Petition was presented. It surely might be presumed, that those objections were removed, and that circumstances had since occurred to render it advisable for that body of people to submit their case to the legislature.
Lord Hawkesbury
intimated to his noble friend, that he was under an error in supposing that the motion founded on the former Petition of the Irish Catholics was overruled by the adoption of the previous question. The fact he believed to be, that the motion for sending that Petition to a committee was rejected by a very considerable majority of their lordships.—The Petition was then read, and ordered to lie on the table.
[OFFICES IN REVERSION BILL.]
On the motion for the first reading of this bill,
The Earl of Moira
said he could not suffer it to pass its first stage without making some observations upon its general merits. Highly as he respected public opinion, and desirous as he was of always exhibiting a willingness to accede to its judgment, he still did not see any ground to change the opinion he had on a former occasion given upon this subject. It had been totally misunderstood by the public, and he was one of those who could see no danger from giving to the executive government that laudable influence, which in the end provided for the concerns of the public. He was ready to admit, that when the right of granting reversions was vested in the crown, it was an abuse, but ftill it was to be recollected, that the practice had existed for 300 years, and had the sanction of ancient usage. If, indeed, any corrupt grant of this nature had been made, or if there were others which stood in the way of a salu-
32
Earl Grosvenor
said, in the second stage of this bill he should certainly feel it his duty to advert to the observations of the noble earl. He then only wished to know, when it was intended to read this bill a 2nd time?
Lord Hawkesbury
proposed the 9th of May, which was adopted.
HOUSE OF COMMONS.
Tuesday, April 12, 1808.
[ROMAN CATHOLIC PETITION.]
Mr. Grattan
observed, that he held in his hand a Petition from a numerous body of men, styling themselves Roman Catholics, and praying relief from that house, in the hope that they might be admitted to the franchises of the constitution. He should not for the present enter into the matter of the petitioners' case, but content himself with moving that the Petition be received, and lie upon the table. On the 16th of May, however, he should submit a proposition to the house upon the subject. He fixed upon that day as the most convenient to several gentlemen who took a warm interest in the Petition, and he trusted it would prove equally convenient, to the gentlemen opposite. He had only to add, that this Petition was signed by a great proportion of the most respectable members of the Catholic body, many of whom had actually subscribed the Petition, whilst others, whose names appeared to it, had their signatures affixed by authority given to the persons who subscribed for them. The Petition, however, he should present as that of the persons only who had actually subscribed their own signatures to it. He moved therefore, that the Petition be received.
The Chancellor of the Exchequer
desired
33
Mr. Grattan
replied, that he was not prepared to state the proportion, but that the number of signatures affixed by order of the parties, amounted to several thousands.
The Speaker
suggested that it would be extremely desirable, if the right hon. gent. could point out any distinctive mark by which those which purported to be the signatures of the parties could be known and distinguished from the real signatures.
Mr. Grattan
replied, that all signatures by the authority of the parties, were written in the same hand, whereas the bona fide signatures were written in the various hands of the subscribing persons. He could prove the signatures of some of them himself, and these were men of the highest respectability, some of them, for instance lord Fingal, being at present in London. He had stated in candour the nature of some of the signatures, and with a view to guard against any imputation that he had presented a Petition purporting to express the sentiments of persons who had never subscribed it. Every person whose name appeared to the Petition, was ready to come forward and subscribe it, but he had thought it better to present the Petition in its present form than to send it back to Ireland and risk the consequences of the various meetings that must necessarily be called in order to obtain signatures.
Mr. H. Parnell
stated, that it was notorious that the Petition had been actually subscribed by several of the most eminent and respectable members of the Catholic body, and as such eight to be received.
The Chancellor of the Exchequer
felt no objection to receiving the Petition, if that could be done without departing from the constant practice of parliament. From the bulk of the petition, it appeared that there was a great mass of names annexed to it, and amongst the number, there must be many who had actually signed it, and whose names might be retained. But, if the signatures which had not really been written by the parties could not be detached, he should be rather inclined to receive the Petition even as it was. If any doubt existed as to the practice of the house, he should certainly prefer receiving the Petition, at the same time protesting against this case being drawn into
34
The Speaker
having been appealed to, stated, that it was quite clear, that if a petition was offered to that house with signatures, avowed Hot to be in the handwriting of the parties whose names they purported to be, it was not receivable. The simple remedy for this was, if these signatures could be detached from the petition, to present it with such only as had been actually subscribed by the parties, in which case the Petition would be received. That house knew of no petitioners; it considered only the matters substantially contained in the petition. There were two ways, by either of which the present difficulty might be got over. The signatures which were not real might be erased, and the petition presented with the original signatures; but that was hazardous both to the parties and the hon. member who should undertake to cancel any names appearing to the petition. The other course was, to detach the signatures that were not original from the petition, and as far as that could be done, to present it with such of the original signatures as were annexed to the petition.
Mr. Tierney
acquiesced in the rule laid down by the Chair in ail ordinary cases, but asserted that the peculiar circumstances of the present case were such as to except it from the application of the ordinary rule. There was no man from Ireland who did not know that two or three millions of signatures could be obtained for the petition. The petition might be received as the petition of those only who had actually subscribed it. If the petition had come from persons partially interested, there might be some reason for inquiring into the signatures, but as this petition expressed the sentiments of so large a portion of the people of Ireland, no form ought to be allowed to keep it out of that house. He thought, therefore, that it ought to be received upon the assurance of his right hon. friend, that he
35
Mr. M. Fitzgerald
(knight of Kerry) felt much difficulty upon the present occasion, bowing, as he did, to the authority of the Chair. He was convinced that more inconvenience would result from sending the petition back to be regularly signed, than from receiving the petition in its present form. Having taken some pains to ascertain the real state of the case respecting the signatures to this petition, he could assure the house that they were 17,000 in number, and that several thousands of these were original signatures. Many of the other signatures had been added on the authority of petitions upon the same subject from different counties in Ireland, which were actually subscribed by the persons whose names appeared to them. When the petition was subscribed by several thousands of original signatures, it became a serious question, if the object of it was to be defeated by an error in point of form. If sent back, it would be easy to obtain millions of subscribers, but he begged the house to consider what might be the effect of referring this petition back to these millions. He put it to his majesty's ministers whether they would risk, by rendering such a course necessary, the disturbance of that harmony, which they were all so anxious to preserve. The signatures had been procured from all parts of Ireland, and included the most respectable amongst the Roman Catholics, because it had been objected against former petitions that they did not express the sentiments of the whole body. But if the house should send it back, he was sure that the signatures would be procured, in a temperate manner. There would be other petitions presented from different parts of the country, and, as he understood, one from a Northern county, with upwards of 30,000 signatures.
Sir Robert Peele
adverted shortly to the Manchester Petition for Peace, which was said to have contained 47,000 signatures, and stated, that he had since been informed that there had been no more than 1600 original signatures to that petition, and that many of the names annexed to it were those of men long dead. He was glad the law of parliament had been now laid down, because, though it was the first right of the subject to bring his complaint before that house, much inconvenience would arise if the practice of annexing the names
36
Sir J. Newport
deprecated every application of the case stated by the hon. bart. to the present case. Persons might differ on the question respecting war or peace, but no man could doubt that the whole Catholic, population of Ireland were desirous of being admitted to the franchises of the constitution. If ever the rule of the house was to be departed from, it was in the present instance.
Mr. Grattan
lamented the awkward situation in which the petitioners would be placed if this petition should be rejected. It would be an inhospitable reception that would be given to the claims of the petitioners. If the rule laid down was to be strictly observed, it would be peculiarly severe with respect to petitions from Ireland. No member who might present one from that country, particularly if of a popular nature, could possibly prove that all the signatures were real. Under these circumstances, the people of Ireland could have no communication with that house. He had presented petitions from several cities in Ireland, the signatures to which he could not have verified. He left it to the good sense of the house, whether they ought to be too critical in judging of petitions, when they conscientiously knew that the petitions contained the sentiments of those whose signatures were annexed. He protested against the application of the statement of the hon. baronet (sir R. Peele) to this case, because he was perfectly convinced, that the petition expressed the real sentiments of all whose names were subscribed to it. If they sent that back which other great bodies received, would not the Catholics of Ireland be discouraged from, any communication with the lower house of parliament? He remembered having presented a petition at one time to the Irish parliament, which had 40 or 50,000 signatures, of which only 7000 were original, yet that produced no difficulty. He knew it was discretionary in the house to receive the petition in its present shape, and he must put it therefore to their discretion. If the petition was to be sent back, and meetings should be called for obtaining signatures, it was not his fault. He would not undertake the responsibility of it. He could authenticate many of the signatures himself, as others could many more, and he therefore again put it to the good sense and discretion of the house, to receive the petition.
37
Mr. Wilberforce
observed, that there was not in any quarter a disposition to object to receiving the petition, but contended, that the usual practice of the house with respect to petitions, signed by many names, was of most substantial importance and real utility, and ought not to be departed from; for much inconvenience might arise from a precedent so establised, however strong the inducement might be.
Mr. Tierney
explained, and desired to know, whether if the question should come to a vote and he should vote for receiving the petition, it would be any disrespect to the chair, after the statement of the practice of the house which had been so distinctly given from the Chair?
The Speaker
re-stated what he had antecedently communicated to the house; and observed that it could be no disrespect to him, for any hon. member who thought otherwise, to vote according to his individual impression. He had when called upon, as it was his duty, stated the practice of the house to the best of his judgment; and it would be for the house to decide, whether it would adhere to its regular practice, or depart from it in this instance.
The Chancellor of the Exchequer
did not wish to reject the Petition; on the contrary, he was desirous that it should be withdrawn, in order to its being presented in a more regular form. It. would be a painful duty, but if pressed in the present form, he must vote for its rejection. He was anxious that the Petition should be received, and as numbers could not add weight to the importance of the subject, the right hon. gent. by withdrawing the Petition, and presenting it to-morrow with any number of original signatures, would attain the end he desired. As Petitions were to be presented from the different counties of Ireland, the house would have the names authenticated annexed to these particular petitions. He had been informed of the circumstance respecting the Manchester Petition. One of the members for Cork had also presented a Petition, purporting to be from the merchants of that city, and in a few days after had informed him, that by letters received from that city, it appeared, that the great body of the merchants knew nothing of the matter till they saw it stated in the newspapers. He mentioned these cases, to show how loose the practice was becoming with respect to petitions, and how necessary it was to adhere to the regular practice.
38
Sir J. Newport
observed, that the case of the petition from the merchants of Cork did not at all bear upon the present petition.
Mr. Windham
did not by any means wish that the house should depart from any rule laid down to regulate its proceedings; but at the same time he thought, in perfect consistence with the rule on this occasion, the petition should be allowed to remain upon the table. He could not see why the fictitious signatures, if any such there were, were to invalidate the real ones. They might let them he dead, and count them for nothing; and, surely, if fifty or sixty well-ascertained signatures could be made out, it would have the same effect as fifty or sixty thousand, since the importance of the petition was not attempted to be denied. He admitted, that if the signatures confessed to be real could be detached, it would be well; but, unfortunately, they were so blended with those called fictitious, that an attempt at discrimination would be utterly impossible. He hoped the house would not push the rule to its extent on this occasion, as it might lead to a manifest inconvenience; viz. that in case any future petition were to be presented, names might be fraudulently and clandestinely fabricated in the same hand, for the purpose of procuring the rejection of the petition. He thought the petition should, at all events, be suffered to lie on the table, with the names separate, if possible; but still, if that could not be effected, he thought it did not signify, as the suspected names might be allowed to go for nothing.
Mr. Yorke
felt great anxiety on the subject of this petition. The petition did not derive weight from the numbers subscribed, but from its matter. But, if the signatures were so intermixed as not to be separated, he thought that it should be received in its present state making a special entry upon the journals, that it should not be drawn into a precedent.
Mr. Secretary Canning
was desirous that some way might be found out for avoiding the present difficulty, but did not think that any thing with respect to these forms should be granted as a present indulgence, which might be a future embarrassment. He thought it impossible but that in such a mass of names the right hon. gentleman would find many which he could attest, and as numbers made no difference in the importance of this question, the petition might be presented with these signatures only.
39
Mr. Windham and Mr. Secretary Canning
severally explained; after which, Mr. Grattan proposed, with the leave of the house, to withdraw the Petition, with a view to procure original signatures, in which case he should not be able to present it before the recess. He should, however, present it by the 16th of May, on which day, he should move for the appointment of a Committee upon it.—After a few words from Messrs. Whitbread and William Smith, recommending the adoption of the line pointed out by Mr. Yorke, to receive the Petition and make a special entry, the Petition was withdrawn.
[LOCAL MILITIA BILL.]
Lord Castlereagh
said, he had not long since had occasion to call the attention of the house to the general consideration of our military establishment; but, at the same time, the house would allow, with reason, that the first consideration was due to our regular army, rather than to those descriptions of force which were secondary and collateral to it. It was the duty of government, however, to attend to all parts of the military system, and to provide effectually for the maintenance and discipline, not only of those descriptions of force that always had arms in their hands, but also of those that were armed only provisionally for the purpose of training and discipline, with a view to eventual emergency. Having proposed that first which was of most importance, he was happy to congratulate the house, that by the success that had attended the measures which it had been his good fortune to propose to the house last year, no legislative care was any longer necessary for the establishment of a regular army. The zeal with which the act passed on his suggestion had been carried into effect, having added 40,000 men to our regular establishment, that most important branch of our military system might be safely left to the protection of the ordinary recruiting. The regular army and militia being in this perfect state, we might now proceed to the arrangement of those other parts of our establishment which were neither less important, nor less difficult to be properly regulated. Having taken the measures last year, which operated so beneficially for the regular army, he thought the country might rest with safety upon those measures, till more precise information as to the number and discipline of the volunteers under arms should furnish to the
40
41
42
43
44
45
46
47
l.
48
Mr. Yorke
expressed his approbation of the principal features of the plan which the noble lord had just submitted to the house. For himself, he had long been impressed with the necessity of placing the country in that state of military habits which would enable us to look without fear on any danger with which it might be threatened. The plan of a local and permanent militia, he considered as peculiarly suited to the genius of our constitution, and the manners of the people. In the present convulsed and disorganised state of Europe, no one could foresee what might happen. If ever there was a time when the country had occasion for a full array of the whole of its military population it was the present. He hoped at last we were come to the time when the house would lay down some solid, well-digested, and permanent plan of internal defence, and that they should hear no more of annual motions on this important subject. The plan of the noble lord he understood to be composed, first of the regular army, maintained at its present establishment; next, of a numerous local militia; and lastly, of an intermediate force, the whole of which should be perfectly adequate to the defence of G. Britain and Ireland,
49
Mr. Windham
rose to offer a few remarks upon the plan of the noble lord, but he could not help previously making one observation upon what had just fallen from the right hon. gent. who spoke last. The right hon. gent. had expressed a hope, that the time was now arrived in which a permanent system would be adopted for the defence of the country. Why this hope should be entertained by the right hon. gent. now, rather than at any former time, he was at a loss to conceive, and it appeared to him rather curious that such a hope should be entertained by those who were now breaking up the system already established. It was as absurd as a call for unanimity would be at the very moment when matter of contention and dispute was brought forward. The question was, what it was upon which they were to settle? The right hon. gent. certainly could not expect, that he should agree to a system which went to subvert
50
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52
53
l.
l.
Lord Castlereagh,
in explanation, denied that he had abandoned the right hon. gent.'s training system. All he wished was, not to carry it to greater lengths than what was necessary. With respect to the recruiting officers from the army alluded to by the right hon. gent. they were 400 in number when he came into office, and were rapidly increasing. A Serjeant was attached to each, so that the expence to the country was considerable. It had, therefore, been determined by his majesty's government, that those among them who had not evinced any exertion, should be dismissed. The volunteer Serjeants had only commissions given them to enlist, but no sum, unless the men were raised. Certainly, the inspecting field officers were allowed to make advances to those Serjeants, and the only reason why no bond of security was given by them on those advances, was the large duties on such bonds.
General Tarleton
contended, that the time for making a radical reformation in an army was peace and not war; and that the army in this country, if a proper disposition were made of it, would be amply sufficient, without the imposition of any additional burden upon the people, by ballot or otherwise, to repel whatever enemy might venture to attack us. The pathetic manner in which the right hon. gent. had so repeatedly deplored the subversion of his military system, reminded him of the lamentation of Rachel over her children, who, according to the Scriptures, 'would not be comforted.' Among other regulations which he thought it would be adviseable to adopt in the present juncture, he strenuously recommended the formation of camps for the exercise of our army, both regulars and militia. He was convinced also, that if the volunteers were united for a time to regular troops for the
54
[STIPENDIARY CURATES BILL.]
The Chancellor of the Exchequer,
after narrating the proceedings of both houses, relative to the former bills on this subject, stated, that as the house seemed to be of opinion generally, that the condition of the Curates of this country was such as required amelioration, he should now move for leave to bring in a Bill for that purpose. He should propose that, in most cases, those gentlemen should have a salary equal to one-fifth of that of the beneficed clergyman; but that, in no case, it should exceed 250
l.
Lord Porchester
reprobated in strong terms the principle and real object of this bill, the most unconstitutional that was ever submitted to the consideration of parliament. He was astonished that the right hon. mover should think of persevering in such a measure, after being thrice defeated in his attempt at carrying it into a law. It was not with the amelioration which it proposed in the condition of the subordinate clergy, nor with the alledged purpose of enforcing the residence of clergymen in their respective parishes, that he
55
Mr. Babington
defended the bill, as calculated to produce two desirable effects, namely, an increase of comfort, to the active curate, and the advantage of a resident, clergyman to the parish.
Mr. Creevey
coincided with his noble friend, and declared his determination to oppose the bill in every stage. He designated it, if operative, as an act of plunder on the property of the rector, and if inefficient, one carried under false pretences through the legislature.
Sir Ralph Milbanke
thought, injustice, that a liberal compensation should be made to the curate, proportioned to the duties performed, and to the receipts of the living. Where they amounted to 500
l.
l.
Dr. Laurence
considered the bill as an innovation, and said he would take another opportunity of stating his objections fully on this subject.
The Chancellor of the Exchequer
replied to the objections advanced against the measure, and enforced the necessity of going into a committee, when the opposers of the bill would have an opportunity of submitting their various amendments and modifications.—After some brief observations from Mr. Tierney and Mr. Windham, leave was granted to bring in the Bill, under an implied undertaking that its principle was to be fully discussed on the committal of it.
HOUSE OF COMMONS.
Wednesday, April 13, 1808.
[SUGAR DISTILLATION.]
Lord Binning,
chairman of the Committee appointed to consider of the propriety of confining for a
56
*
Sir H. Mildmay
thought it right to apprize the house, that the part of the Report which went to prohibit the use of grain in distillation, though sanctioned by a majority of the committee, had by no means its unanimous approbation. If any legislative measure should be proposed on the Report, tending to carry that principle into effect, he gave notice that he should feel it his duty to oppose it. There was no sufficient public ground for such a measure, and it would be extremely injurious to the barley counties, one of which he had the honour to represent. He was confident that his constituents would give him instructions to oppose the proposition, and that they would petition against the measure.
Mr. Chute
agreed with the hon. baronet. The landed interest was sufficiently depressed, and the influence of members whose consequence arose from trade was already sufficiently great, without striking a general blow at an extensive branch of the agriculture of the country. He should give his determined opposition to the measure.
Mr. Western
spoke to the same effect.
Admiral Hervey,
as a member of a barley county, found it impossible to allow the measure to be announced, without announcing at the same time his determined opposition to it. He could not help ascribing the design to party motives: a rumour had reached his ears, that the members for Norfolk, Suffolk, and Essex were excluded from the committee in its formation, because they were barley counties.
Mr. Hibbert
could not suffer misconceptions, such as those expressed by the hon. members who had spoken before him, to go abroad, and operate uncontradicted during the recess. Though he was a merchant, he felt the importance of agriculture as much as any man, and knew that the principal dependence of the country was upon it. It would be found, when the Report should come to be examined, that the committee had looked not only to the interests of the West Indies, but also more particularly to those of the country at home, taking into consideration the present state of its foreign relations, which proba-
*
57
d.
Lord Binning
thought the discussion premature till the report should be printed and in the hands of members a sufficient time for consideration. He did not conceive that the right hon. gent. on whose motion the committee was formed, had passed over the members for Norfolk, Suffolk, and Essex, because these were corn counties. He himself had voted in favour of the recommendation to prohibit the use of corn in distillation, but he by no means would have done so, if he could have thought the prohibition likely to prove injurious to the landed interest.
Mr. Lushington
thought it must be a most extravagant degree of alarm that could suggest to one member that the barley fields would lie uncultivated, and to another that the representation of the people, and composition of the house of commons, would be deteriorated by affording the relief which West India produce required, which could be afforded without injury, and to which persons interested in the West India colonies were well entitled. The committee had been formed as fairly as possible, by including a just proportion of every interest concerned. He hoped the landed interest would take up this
58
Mr. Brand
allowed that the West India trade was entitled to relief, and would be ready to support any relief given at the general expence of the country. What he complained of was a relief proposed to be given by the injury and oppression of the barley counties. A committee was not to be appointed to revise and bring into question the fundamental principles of public economy, so decidedly laid down by Hume, Stuart, and Smith, in this country, and by Turgot and Condorcet, in France. The uncertain wealth of speculation should not be supported by the sacrifice of the certain benefits of agriculture. He should look to the Report narrowly, and oppose it in every stage, if, as he feared, it contained a recommendation to prohibit the distillation of corn.
The Chancellor of the Exchequer
said the committee had by no means been appointed in opposition to the established, principles alluded to by the hon. gent. who had just sat down, or with a view to consult the interests of the colonies, at the expence of those of the mother country. The circumstances which called for the investigation of the committee, were of a temporary nature; so was the relief proposed in the report. These circumstances applied to the mother country as well as the colonies, and so did the relief; and so far was it from being intended to do any premature injury to agriculture, that not even a momentary depression of the price of grain was to take place without a power to put an end to the proposed restriction. He would express no opinion as to the propriety of carrying the recommendation contained in the report into effect. He had formed no opinion; he had avoided forming any till he should have the whole subject and evidence before him in the report. The committee had been appointed to consider the depressed state of the West India produce, and what relief could be afforded by introducing the use of sugar into the distilleries, or by any other means. The committee had taken into consideration the state of our foreign trade, and the probability of our being for some time deprived of our usual supplies of grain from abroad. And upon the general consideration of the state of the country, and of the West Indies, the report
59
Mr. C. Ellis
condemned the opposition shewn to the report as premature; the object of the report could yet be scarcely known, and certainly the reasons on which that object was founded, and the regulations and restrictions by which the proposed measure was to be accompanied, were not. He was satisfied, that no member of the committee would have voted for the report, if there could have been the slightest idea that the measure proposed would be injurious to agriculture. The committee was fairly formed of persons selected from every interest, and framed its report from the best view of the general situation and circumstances of the country.
Admiral Harvey
declared himself satisfied after the explanation of the chancellor of the exchequer, that the rumour of the members for the corn counties having been excluded from, improper motives, was without foundation.
Mr. Windham
knew nothing of the Re-
60
Sir J. Sinclair
stated, that the agricultural part of the community throughout the empire had felt the greatest alarm since the committee had been formed. It was therefore essential that the Report should be printed as speedily as possible, and that it should be circulated through the country, and full time given for the consideration of it. Then the sentiments of the farmers and land-owners might be conveyed to parliament; the case would be decided on an attentive view of the whole of the merits; and the landed interest would receive that protection to which it was entitled.
Mr. Manning
said, the attention of the committee was always directed to the interests of the country, as well as to those, of the West India trade. He should have felt himself unworthy of the trust reposed in him as a member of the committee, if he had acted on any other principle. The measure recommended was but of a temporary nature, to be in force for twelve months from the 1st of July next; and if the restriction should at any time be found injurious to the price of corn, it might be removed without delay. But, if the restriction on the exportation of corn from the port of London to the colonies should be taken off, the landed interest would gain more by opening that trade than it could by any possibility suffer from the limitation. He thought it right to state this now, to correct as far as possible the misconception and alarm that had gone abroad. Such explanation was the more essential, as from the voluminous nature of the Report, it would be a long time before it could be printed and circulated in such a manner as to do itself that justice. As a proof of the impartiality that regulated the formation of the Committee, he stated, that he did not know his name was on the list till he heard it pronounced from the chair. Most of the merchants on the committee were wholly unconnected with the West-Indies.
61
Mr. Macleod
stated, that the greatest alarm prevailed in the county he represented (Ross), and the adjoining county of Sutherland, at the idea of the measure recommended in this report. He was sure there would be meetings, and petitions to parliament on the subject.
Lord Binning
then gave notice, that unless some other person should offer a motion to the house founded on the Report, he should do so in proper time.
[STIPENDIARY CURATES BILL.]
The Chancellor of the Exchequer
brought in a bill to encourage the residence of Stipendiary Curates.
Mr. M. A. Taylor
would be glad of a provision that would secure even the residence of Curates; for the only object of many of those who possessed a plurality of livings, was to get the duty done as cheaply as possible. The Clergy Residence act had in a great measure failed from the facility of procuring licences. He knew an instance of a clergyman who had two livings in different parts of the country, who procured an exemption from residing at any of them; from the one upon a certificate that the country did not agree with his constitution, and from the other because the country did not agree with his wife.—The bill was then read a first and second time, committed and reported.
[FINANCE.]
Mr. Biddulph
having maintained, on a former night, that the interest and sinking fund for the sum wanted for the service of the year, might be found without imposing any new taxes on the subject, had to propose certain Resolutions with a view to that object, which he hoped the house would allow to be laid on the table, and to be printed, in order to their being taken into consideration on a future day.—On the suggestion of the chancellor of the exchequer, it was agreed, that the Resolutions should be read, and the debate arising on them adjourned to Friday fortnight.—Several Resolutions relating to the amount of Supplies voted, the surplus of the Consolidated Fund, &c. were read and disposed of accordingly, but on a Resolution proposing the sale of some parts of the Hereditary Revenue of the crown,
The Speaker
stated, that it was contrary to precedent that the house should interfere with the hereditary revenue of the crown, without the authority of a special communication from his majesty.
The Chancellor of the Exchequer
said his majesty had not been consulted.
Mr. Biddulph
proposed to reconcile this
62
Mr. Lethbridge
hoped the hon. gent. would withdraw his motion. It was quite improper to think of interfering with the hereditary revenue, without his majesty's permission, intimated either by a special message or by his confidential advisers.
Mr. Biddulph
refused to withdraw his motion, and thought the difficulties of form ought to be accommodated rather than made a bar to the consideration of a proposition, the object of which was to save the subject from any additional burthens this year. As certain property, such as warehouses and legal quays, had been purchased by money from the Consolidated Fund, and vested in his majesty, so he thought parts of the other property of the crown might be granted for the service of the public. He did not mean to touch any property essential to the dignity, splendour, or comfort of the crown. The property he alluded to consisted chiefly of detached houses and small pieces of land in Piccadilly, and other parts of the town, to the sale of which he could not see any good ground of opposition. He would give a schedule of this property in due time. It consisted, first of property attended with constant loss; secondly, of trifling rents, which had constantly declined in value from the time of Philip and Mary, when they were worth 5,100
l.
l.
The Speaker
repeated the impediment in point of form.
The Chancellor of the Exchequer
expressed his readiness to abandon the Bills he had introduced to provide for the interest and sinking fund for the sums wanted for the public service, if the hon. gent. could devise means of answering these claims without new taxes. He would be grateful, even, for any suggestion that could tend, to diminish the taxes he had felt himself called upon to propose; but he did not see how what the hon. gent. proposed, so
63
l.
Mr. Biddulph
replied, that he was very willing to withdraw the resolution, if the rt. hon. gent. would endeavour to procure for the object of it the recommendation of the crown.—On the suggestion of the Speaker, the last Resolution was withdrawn, and the consideration of the other Resolutions was postponed to the 25th of this month.
[IRISH PROTESTANT CHARITY SCHOOLS.]
The Report of the Committee of Supply was received, and the Resolutions were agreed to.—Upon the Resolution for granting 20,000
l.
Mr. Parnell
rose to draw the attention of the house to a circumstance respecting those institutions he had before alluded to, and which he thought ought to be redressed. A sort of Catechism had been composed for those schools, called the 'Protestant Catechism,' which did not dwell, as the Catechisms we were best acquainted with, upon prayers, creed, or commandments, but went almost entirely to abuse the tenets of the Catholic church, which
64
Sir A. Wellesley
was sorry that this subject had been drawn into discussion in that house. It had already engaged the attention of the Board of Education, who would probably give directions respecting it. He certainly never had seen the 'Protestant Catechism,' nor was he acquainted with those documents which the hon. gent. quoted to refute it; but he thought, that when he had stated what was taught in some schools, he ought also to have stated what was taught in others. He had been informed, that at several Catholic schools children had been taught to read, not in the Bible, but in Paine's Rights of Man, and in books which gave an account of what the Roman Catholics of Ireland had suffered from the Protestants. Such an education as this would breed them up in a fixed and rooted hatred to Protestants.
Mr. Grattan
bore, testimony to the good management of the charter schools in other respects; but he condemned this 'Protestant Catechism,' which had been composed for their use. Among other extracts which he read from it was one where the child is asked, was there any salvation for persons in the communion of the
65
Mr. Elliot
read from the Roman Catholic prayer-book, which was published by the sanction of the four Catholic archbishops of Ireland, and which was put into the hands of all the Catholic children of that country, doctrines totally different from those which had been imputed to them in this 'Protestant Catechism.' The precepts in the Catholic prayer-book were allegiance to the king, and respect to existing governments. In that part of it which related to love and charity to our neighbours, the question is put to the Catholic child, 'Who is your neighbour?' the answer is, 'mankind of every persuasion, and we are bound to love those who differ from us in opinion, and even those who injure us.'
Sir J. Newport
thought that it was no sort of excuse for such doctrines being taught in our charter-schools, which were national institutions, under the controul of government, and paid by the public, to say that at some obscure Catholic school doctrines as mischievous were taught. He thought his hon. friend had done very right in bringing the business forward in this manner, as it was often by the animadversions of the public that the grossest abuses were corrected. It was not above 14 years ago when no children could be educated at those Protestant charier schools but the children of popish parents, and it was very lately a custom to send the children from the South of Ireland to the North, and change their names for the purpose of cutting off all intercourse with their parents or relations. Those abuses had been hitherto principally corrected by becoming subjects of general conversation and censure.
Colonel Barry
supposed it possible that this 'Protestant Catechism' might have been composed before the Catholics formally and solemnly disavowed the sentiments imputed to them.
Mr. Fitzgerald
(knight of Kerry) said, that Mr. Parnell had been absolutely obliged to bring the matter before the house, as he had been defied to produce such a Catechism at the time he alluded to it. The Catechism had now been produced, and it was a composition only fit for a Portuguese Jesuit, in the 16th century. If Ignatius Loyola had now been alive, and
66
l.
Mr. Parnell
said, that he had not intended to find fault with any thing else in these institutions, and having mentioned this matter publickly, he should not refuse to vote the sum named in the resolution.—The Resolution was then agreed to.
[PETITIONS AGAINST THE ORDERS IN COUNCIL.]
The Chancellor of the Exchequer
having moved the order of the day for the house going into a committee on the Petitions against the Orders in Council, and the house having gone into a committee, several witnesses were called in to answer the evidence in support of these petitions.—The house resumed, and the chairman obtained leave to sit again on Tuesday se'nnight, with an understanding that the evidence in support of the Orders was then closed, and that the witnesses which had been named on a former day by Mr. Tierney should then attend.
HOUSE OF COMMONS.
Thursday, April 14, 1808.
[MINUTES.]
Two new writs were ordered to be issued, one for the borough of St. Mawes, in the room of Scrope Barnard, esq. who has accepted of the office of steward of the Chiltern hundreds; the other for the borough of Wareham, in the room of sir G. T. Calcraft, who has accepted his majesty's hundreds of East Hendred.—Mr. Graham presented a petition from the South London water works company against the Vauxhall bridge bill, which was ordered to lie upon the table.
[LOCAL MILITIA BILL.]
Sir J. C. Hippisley
begged to put a question to the chancellor of the exchequer, in the absence of a noble viscount who had brought in this bill; which was, Whether any exception was to be made in favour of those balloted men, who had relied on the faith of parliament for not being again called upon till the lists of their respective parishes were exhausted? For such was the construction of the law: and gentlemen, like himself, who had acted in carrying into effect the provisions of the late Militia Transfer bill, had witnessed the anxiety
67
The Chancellor of the Exchequer
could not resolve the question, from his recollection of the provisions of the bill.
Sir J. C. Hippisley
observed, that, he put the question, not merely from knowing how interesting the result must be to those who stood in this predicament, but also in compliance with a requisition which had been made to him.—Adjourned till Tuesday the 26th instant.
HOUSE OF COMMONS.
Tuesday, April 26, 1808.
[IRISH CLERGY RESIDENCE BILL.]
On the order of the day for the second reading of the Irish Clergy Residence bill,
Sir John Newport
said, he fully concurred in the measure, so far as it went: but this bill fell very far short of the efficient purposes for which it had been framed. He thought it should make more ample provision for curates, who, in case of the non-residence of the rectors, would have to do the whole of the duty, and that the power of dispensing with, or enforcing residence, should not rest with the bishops. The person who did not reside on his living, ought to give a considerable portion of the profits to him who did reside, and who performed the duty. He was also at a less to know why this bill contained no provision to augment the salaries of curates. The hon. baronet then stated instances of curates having no more than 20
l.
l.
Sir A. Wellesley,
in reply, said, that it was his intention to propose an augmentation to the salaries of the curates in Ireland; which he should do, either in the committee on the bill of his right hon. friend, or by a separate bill. With respect to the hon. baronet's observation against granting power to bishops to dispense with residence, he was afraid that, as pluralities must exist in Ireland, in consequence of the present state of the church there, it would be impossible to enforce residence in every instance.
The Chancellor of the Exchequer
said, his right hon. friend had considerably limited the cases where non-residence was allowed in Ireland. And it would be for parliament hereafter to see how far the power of dispensing with residence had been extended. With respect to the curates of Ireland, it was his wish that the provision for augmenting their salaries should be
68
[PETITION OF THE EAST INDIA COMPANY.]
Mr. C. Grant
presented a Petition of the United Company of Merchants of England trading to the East Indies, setting forth,
69
l.
l.
l.
70
l.
l.
71
l.
l.
l.
l.
l.
l.
l.
l.
l.
72
l.
Mr. Grant
said, that as the affairs of the East India Company were already under the consideration of a committee of that house, which was then employed in investigating them, he would move, That the Petition be referred to the said committee.
Mr. M. A. Taylor
said, although he should be inclined to bow to any recommendation of that committee, yet he could not help thinking the most fair way would be to refer this Petition to a special committee, as it appeared to be a question of very great importance, in order to ascertain whether the East India Company were preferring a claim or a demand. He thought that as such a full investigation was necessary, the hon. gent. who presented this petition ought to have given the house a regular notice of his intention to refer it to the consideration and investigation of a committee. He did not wish to enter into any discussion of East India affairs at present, but he thought that when the house were to be induced to agree that such a sum should be given away, the case ought not to be submitted to them in such a thin house. In the most common cases such notices had uniformly been given, and was it not absurd to endeavour, under other circumstances, to make the house sanction and encourage a demand to that extent upon the public? He hoped, therefore, that a regular notice would yet be given, for he could not so permit one shilling of his constituents to go towards the East India company. He had been formerly one of the East India committee, and then thought, as he still did think, that that company was a monopoly that ought not long to exist. This was a question which would
73
Mr. Creevey
thought the house under obligations to his hon. friend, for the manner in which he had brought this subject forward. Being a member of the committee for inquiring into the affairs of the India company, he had an opportunity of seeing documents which enabled him to form an opinion, that the Company never would be able to repay the loan they were now calling on parliament to grant. There was a deficit in the present year's account of no less than three millions; and what reason was there to suppose that the Company would not come next year and call for another loan? If the money they called for now was granted, it must be considered as a gift, and not as a loan. It, therefore, was necessary immediately to consider whether the monopoly ought to be renewed. The Company was now carrying on a trade without any surplus revenue, by borrowing money at a high interest. Their trade was daily decreasing, and the Americans had become their rivals in it. Some means should be devised to stop this Ame-
74
Sir John Newport
considered the sum now demanded as nothing less than a gift; and as Ireland must be obliged to contribute a part of it, he would now lay his claim on behalf of Ireland, to a revision of the act by which Ireland gave up her right to any part of the trade to India, in order that she might receive remuneration for her losses in consequence of this monopoly. This was the opinion of all the commercial bodies in Ireland, who felt that if they contributed anything towards relieving the East India company, they ought to have a share in the trade.
Mr. Grant
declared that he had no wish to take the house by surprise, or to pass any measure of importance in a thin house; but he conceived that many of the observations just made, had a tendency to prejudice the company in the eyes of the public, and therefore he would make a short reply to them. With respect to the trade of the Americans to India, the public laboured under a great mistake. The situation of Europe was such as necessarily to check the extent of our Indian trade; and the neutral state of the Americans enabled them to derive advantages from that trade, which it was not in the power of the company to prevent. Whenever this case should come to be fully discussed before the house, sufficient evidence would be shewn to remove every prejudice that might exist on the subject. None other could supply the continent of Europe with Indian produce, but the Americans; and it was not the fault of the company that they engrossed so great a share of the trade. With respect to the observations which fell from an hon. gent. (Mr. Creevey,) he did not know how far it was regular for a member of the committee to give an opinion from documents which, in that character, he had access to, and thus prejudice the judgment of the house, before any report was made. The company had the guarantee of parliament to expect that their present request would be granted. He denied that it was to be considered in the light of a gift; and he hoped
75
Mr. Ponsonby
said, that it was clear, that whatever the company might be able to do at a future period, they were now unable to pay their dividend, and called upon that house to enable them by a sum of money, to be raised upon the country, to supply their deficiency, and enable them to pay the dividend of their particular stock. He thought that before the house agreed to dispose of 2,400,000
l.
The Chancellor of the Exchequer
said, that there was at present no call for a determination whether it was fit to comply with the prayer of the petition or not. That question must depend upon the Report of the Committee With regard to the complaint of an hon. gent. that no notice had been given, he conceived that it was not customary to require a notice of an intention to present a petition. If indeed there had been any doubt or difficulty with respect to the motion, founded upon it, that might be a good reason for a delay in the proceeding. But the whole that was now proposed was, to put the petition in a state of enquiry, and for that purpose nothing could be so proper as to refer it to the committee actually employed in the investigation of the subject to which it related; and there was no occasion therefore for any notice. The right hon. gent. who spoke last had begged that he might not be considered as pledging himself to any assent to the prayer of the petition by not objecting to this reference. This caution was unnecessary, because nobody could be pledged till the result of
76
Mr. M. A. Taylor,
in explanation, said, that he had not asserted that any notice was requisite before presenting the petition. What he did say was, that in a question of this magnitude it would have been proper to have given notice of the motion for reference.
Mr. Ponsonby,
in explanation, stated, that he had given no opinion as to the propriety or impropriety of complying with the prayer of the petition. He had merely said, that this must be considered as a gift, and not a loan, and his reason was, that if the credit of the Company was sound, they might borrow money upon it without coming to parliament: another reason was, that after all the promises as to the assistance they would be enabled to give the public, they had never advanced more than 500,000
l.
77
Mr. Tierney
stated that the Company had a right, by act of parliament, to increase their capital to a sum equivalent to four millions, and last year parliament authorised them to issue bonds to one half that amount, he considered this application as similar to that of last year. The Company now had a right to demand a debt of 1,200,000
l.
78
Sir John Anstruther
observed, that the East India company had not come, as some gentlemen imagined, to ask the house for any indulgence but such as had been granted to other mercantile companies, and on former occasions to themselves. They had, some years ago, applied for and obtained similar relief, which they had invariably returned to the public; and he could not see why they should now be refused assistance, when they shewed the same grounds for it, and had kept their faith so well on former occasions. He denied in strong terms that there had been any attempt on the part of the Company to delude the public, or to keep from them a fair state of their affairs, and deprecated the ingrafting on this subject the question of the policy of throwing open the East India trade. He trusted that when this question came to be discussed hereafter, it would not be canvassed in a mere commercial point of view, but that the whole political bearings of the case would be taken into consideration, both as relating to the welfare of that country, and, in his opinion, to the very existence of this. He would not, however ready he was to enter upon this investigation, trouble the house further on this occasion, than to express his doubts as to the practicability of the export trade to India being carried on by individual exertion, whatever facility opening the intercourse of private traders might afford to the importation of East India goods.
Mr. Howorth
insisted, that there had of late been a total suppression of the East India Company's affairs, and the last budget had only brought them up to 1803–4, since which time not a document on the subject had been produced. Neither were there any documents in support of the petition, and he considered it only fair and reasonable, that before parliament granted any aid, a complete state of the Company's returns, sales, profits, and assets, should be laid before it.
Mr. R. Dundas
replied, that it was not usual to produce documents in support of the allegations contained in a petition, but that the only reason none were offered in this case was, that they could not be prepared in time for the petition to be presented within the limits prescribed by the house. As to the deficiency of the East
79
Mr. Tierney,
in explanation, said, that he meant no more than that the noble lords had been much too sanguine in their calculations.—The motion was then agreed to.
HOUSE OF COMMONS
Wednesday, April 27, 1808.
[DEAD BODIES INTERNET BILL.]
Mr. Tremaine
rose pursuant to the notice he gave yesterday. He said that in various cases of shipwreck, dead bodies were cast on the shores of this kingdom, which sometimes could not receive the common rights of burial. This was a disgusting circumstance, and disgraceful to the character of the country. The cause was, that parish officers were afraid to order bodies to be buried, on account of the expences they might bring upon the parishes. His object in the present measure, was to propose that parish officers should be compelled to bury all bodies so cast on shore; and that the expence of the same should be defrayed by the countries. Also, that rewards should be given to persons discovering dead bodies, and giving information of the same to the parish officers. He then moved for leave to bring in a bill to that effect, which was granted.
[IRISH TYTHES.]
Mr. Parnell
Dr. Duigenan
these cause were so numerous and so scattered through different parts of Ireland, that he did not see how it was possible to procure the returns which the hon. gent. desired.
Mr. Parnell
replied, that the objection stated by the learned doctor, was the principal reason why he wished to have such returns laid before the house. It was because these processes were so numerous, and because litigations respecting tythes in Ireland had increased to so great a pitch, that he thought it necessary for parliament to have the fullest information con-
80
[FIFTH MILITARY REPORT.]
Mr. Wardell
gave notice, that on Monday he would move several amendments in the bill for increasing the Assessed taxes. While he was on his legs, he would take that opportunity of asking his majesty's ministers, whether it was intended to adopt any new regulations in pursuance of that part of the Report of the commissioners of Military Inquiry, which related to the abuses in the medical department of the army?
The Chancellor of the Exchequer
observed, that if the honourable gentleman recollected the period at which the report he alluded to was made, he must not conclude, that there was any ministers, if they had not finally determined what measures ought to be adopted on the subject.
Mr. Wardel
replied, that he was not satisfied with the answer he had received, and wished to know if it was intended to bring forward any proposition on this subject at an early period.
The Chancellor of the Exchequer
said, he could not give a precise answer to the question, but the hon. gent was at liberty to fix on any time he chose, for bringing the Report under the consideration of the house.
CULTIVATION OF FLAX IN IRELAND.]
Sir John Newport
said, he understood by public rumour, stated in some of the newspapers, that in consequence of the deficiency of Flax-seed imported this year into Ireland, owing to the embargo in the American ports, a considerable quantity of the flax-seed remaining in G. Britain, and which was intended to be expressed into oil, had been sent over to Ireland, and allowed to pass. As this was a subject of great importance to the kingdom, masmuch as it involved in it the staple manufacture of Ireland, he wished to know if there was any truth in the rumour.
Mr. Foster
said, he only knew of this rumour, from what he saw in the newspapers. It was, however, natural to suppose, that persons in Ireland would wish to get
81
[IRISH SPIRIT DRAWBACK BILL.]
The house having resolved itself into a committee on the Irish Spirit Drawback Bill,
Sir John Newport
rose to complain of it as the renewal of a measure which, when originally passed, was nothing less than a violation of the act of union. It appeared to him that such articles of the union as were beneficial to G. Britain and injurious to Ireland, were acted upon, and that no disposition had been manifested by the parliament to promote the prosperity of Ireland. He was one of those who, in the parliament of Ireland, had supported the union, because he expected many important benefits from it to that country. If these benefits were not to follow from it, the union must be considered as a curse instead of a blessing.
The Chancellor of the Exchequer
said the sentiment just expressed by the hon. baronet, respecting the union with Ireland, was one calculated to produce as many mischievous consequences as any that ever had been uttered in that house. He called on the hon. baronet to state one instance in which the principle he alluded to had been acted upon by parliament. If he knew of any instances in which a disposition prejudicial to Ireland had been shewn, let him bring them before the house. As to the principle of the present bill, the hon. baronet did not withhold his approbation towards it at the time when he had a seat in his majesty's councils. If ever there should be a question to be decided, whether advantages were to be granted to Ireland or to G. Britain, he was confident that the house, so far from acting injuriously towards Ireland, would be inclined rather to turn the scale of advantage in her favour. He could recollect no instance in which the proceedings of that house could justify the insinuation of the hon. baronet.
Sir J. Newport
stated, that he considered the act of union to have been violated in the law for disallowing the drawback on
82
The Chancellor of the Exchequer
observed, that the hon. baronet, though called on to prove his assertion, produced only one solitary instance. Now, if the, house should, come to the examination of the act of union, and the hon. baronet should state the article which he considered to have been infringed by this bill, he himself would undertake to prove that such article was one which required explanation, and that what had been done was strictly conformable to the spirit of the act of union. Let not the hon. baronet make general charges, but state the specific grounds on which his principle stood. As to this particular bill, he surely could not object to the continuance of it for a certain time.
Mr. Foster
declared he had always found in that house a most favourable disposition towards Ireland. The bill in question was the only instance the hon. baronet could produce to prove his assertion. He defied him to produce any other; or even to shew in what manner this bill was unfavourable to Ireland.
Sir J. Newport
said that spirits were prohibited from being sent from Ireland to England, unless they were warehoused.
Mr. Foster
replied, that there never was an instance so opposite to the thing he wanted to establish, as that noticed by the hon. baronet. That bill had been introduced by a friend to the Irish distilleries, namely, by himself. It permitted them to warehouse their spirits if they chose, and to export them with as much drawback as could be allowed consistently with the articles of union. It was therefore rather favourable than otherwise to the Irish distiller.
Mr. Mac Naghten
conceived that nothing could be more mischievous than to suffer such language as that used by the hon.
83
Mr. Wilberforce
declared, he never felt more pain than he now did, at what fell from his right lion, friend. He had ever observed in that house a disposition to do the amplest justice to Ireland. The present charge was not alone directed against his majesty's ministers, but against every member of that house, and he felt it was directed against his own parliamentary conduct. He hoped his right hon. friend would abstain from sowing the seeds of hostility between the two countries, and endeavour to do away the effect of his assertion.
Sir J. Newport
persisted in his assertion. He avowed every deference to the opinion of the hon. gent, but said he could not be deterred by any imputations upon his motives, from making his complaints in that house, where they might be answered or redressed, rather than out of doors, where they could only excite murmurs and discontents.
Mr. Parnell
contended that his right hon. friend was right in the supposition, that the act would tend to injure the Irish distillers. If the act of union gave an advantage in one point to one of the countries, he supposed it gave an equivalent to the other: that was matter of consideration at the time of its enactment, and certainly it would be highly unjust now to alter any of the provisions which were advantageous to Ireland. He thought the imputation cast on this act was perfectly justified by the circumstances: as to the surprise which the chancellor of the exchequer intimated, at the supposition that this bill went to injure Ireland, he did not see any particular grounds for it: the report of the committee now sitting on the subject of distillation he thought might tend, together with the operation of this act, materially to prevent the sale of Irish manufacture.
Mr. D. Browne
considered the speech of the hon. baronet as calculated to do much mischief in Ireland; the interests of which country, he contended, had always been treated with candour and fairness by that house.
84
Mr. W. Taylor
objected to the present bill as unnecessary.
The Chancellor of the Exchequer
observed, that the act in question was in force while the hon. baronet was in administration, and he made no complaint against it during all that time, nor introduced a single regulation for encouraging the spirit trade of Ireland, although it was entirely in his power. Therefore, as this was the only instance the hon. baronet could advance to show that Ireland had been unfairly dealt with, he hoped the house would attach to it the weight which it deserved.—The bill then went through the committee.
[IRISH SUPPLIES.]
In the committee of supply, Mr. Foster moved, that there be granted to his majesty a sum not exceeding 10,000
l
Mr. Parnell
rose for the purpose of moving, that the words 'and other papers,' be left out. He stated that these proclamations were extended by government to other papers merely for the purpose of undue influence. There was no necessity for this: it entailed an exorbitant expence on the country, which was increased as much as possible by the editors of newspapers, for their own emolument. He instanced three cases out of many in which old proclamations were actually inserted for no other purpose; one of them was of so old a date as 1805, warning all his majesty's good and loving subjects in 1808, of a fever which raged at Gibraltar at the first issuing of the proclamation. A second was also inserted in 1808, giving notice of a limitation to the exportation of goods from Ireland, which limitation expired in 1807. A third was lately inserted also, giving notice of a supply of seamen wanted in 1805. Such was the service for the support of which parliament was now solicited; if he did not miscall that a service which was in itself unnecessary, or made necessary only for the purposes of corruption.
Sir A. Wellesley
contended, that there was no additional expence incurred by the re-publication of those old proclamations which were alluded to, as the editors were generally paid by the year, and not for each particular publication. As to any attempt at influence, he disclaimed it as far as concerned himself altogether; nor did he think the publica-
85
Mr. Windham
considered the admission of the last speaker conclusive in support of the amendment moved by his hon. friend. If the editors of newspapers wished to promote the sale of their papers, they would, naturally, reprint all those proclamations which referred to important national objects, and where there were minor or subordinate documents, the parties interested in their operation would take care to inform themselves of their nature and tendency by means of the Dublin Gazette. The present mode was proved to be a job, and ought instantly to be abolished.
Sir A. Wellesley
said he could not see how the grant of that money was in any degree abused; it certainly was not his fault if the editors made a bad selection of proclamations.
Mr. Parnell
said, there appeared to him to be a regular traffic carried on between the press and the government in Ireland; it seemed as if the first step of each succeeding ministry was to see what each editor would sell for. There was a peculiar loss attending the insertion of these proclamations, inasmuch as they paid no stamp duty, and so prevented the insertion of advertisements that did. As to the arguments made use of to shew the disinterestedness of government by extending the proclamations to opposition papers, he thought they made against those who produced them, as they shewed not only an inclination to increase the expence to the country, but also to try to the utmost what temptation could do.
Mr. Croker
said, that being intimate with an editor of an Irish newspaper, he had remarked to him particularly the circumstances now alluded to, that of the reprinting old proclamations. The answer the editor gave was "Indeed, to tell you the truth, we often are so barren of news, and so pinched for want of paragraphs, that we consider ourselves very well off when we can make shift with a convenient proclamation; it, is not very interesting to be sure, but then it serves to fill up the paper."—He said inferior newspapers only republished them.
Mr. Parnell
said, he had not intended to state the names of the papers he al-
86
HOUSE OF LORDS.
Friday, April 29, 1808.
[DANISH VESSELS DETAINED PREVIOUS TO
Lord Sidmouth
said, he was; under the necessity of again calling the attention of their lordships to the papers for which he had moved on a former occasion, respecting the detention of Danish vessels, previous to the declaration of hostilities against Denmark, and the condemnation of those ships subsequent to that declaration. On a closer examination of the Papers which were laid on the table yesterday, he found that no return had been made to two of their lordships orders; that which regarded the number of ships detained before the declaration of war against Denmark, and that which regarded the number of Danish subjects detained before that declaration. He had seen, indeed, a letter from the Admiralty to the Transport Board, stating the order by which the return of the number of prisoners was required; but no exact return had been made to that order, though the answer was not sent, back for six days after the receipt of the order. Under these circumstances, which would prevent him from bringing forward his motion on this subject as soon as he had expected, he must now renew the motion he had made immediately before the recess, and move That a return be made forthwith to the third and fourth orders of their lordships of the 18th March last.
Lord Holland
rose to express his wish, that the noble viscount would not be dissuaded from persisting in his motion, even if the papers he had moved for should not be produced to the extent he had desired. There would still remain matter of great importance in the object of the motion, and which nearly concerned the honour and character of this country. It appeared, that many of the Danish ships which had been detained previous to the declaration of hostilities, had been brought before the Admiralty Courts, and had been ordered to be released; but that on the declaration of war being issued, these same ships were again detained, and afterwards condemned. Was not this stimulating the
87
Lord Hawkesbury
would not now enter into the discussion of the question which his noble friend's motion must involve on a future day. He should only remind the noble viscount of the circumstance of the detention of some Prussian ships under similar circumstances, when the noble viscount himself was a member of the government at the time. He should at present only wish, that when the Papers were produced, the noble viscount in giving notice of the day on which he should bring on his niotion, would have the goodness to state somewhat more precisely the nature of the motion he intended to make, as the subject on which it turned was one of great magnitude and extent.
Lord Holland
in explanation complained, that ministers seemed to think of nothing but crimination and recrimination. He blamed the conduct of no particular minister, but only reprobated a system of iniquity which had grown into practice of late years.
Lord Sidmouth
assured his noble friend that he would not abandon the motion. When he alluded to it yesterday, he had observed that it had nothing of crimination in view, but that it would only go to stop the progress of the practice that had been resorted to and in his opinion was highly unjust, and to prevent further injustice being done to individuals. Whenever he should have the honour to bring forward that motion, he should not despair of being able to prove, that the object in its nature was wholly different from the case to which the noble secretary had referred. As, however, some delay might occur in producing the returns he had moved for, he must defer his motion to a more distant day than Tuesday next.
HOUSE OF COMMONS.
Friday, April 29, 1808.
[PAYMASTER GENERAL'S ACCOUNTS BILL.]
Mr. Long,
in pursuance of his notice, rose
88
89
Dr. Laurence
contended that it was the intention of Mr. Burke, in his bill, to accomplish the object which the right hon. gent. proposed. He dwelt at some length on the hardship to which Paymasters were exposed, who, having quitted office for many years, were called upon to make up their accounts, when the documents by which they might be enabled to do so were exposed to be stolen, and actually were stolen, for the purpose of sale to tallow chandlers and others, engaged in various businesses in which waste paper was necessary.
Mr. Long
again disclaimed any imputation whatever on Mr. Burke; but still contended, that his bill did not go to make the Paymaster's account a cash account.—Leave was granted to bring in the bill.
[MAYNOOTH COLLEGE.]
The house having resolved itself into a Committee of Supply,
Mr. Foster
rose to move the Resolution for a grant to Maynooth College. The grant in former years had been 8,000
l.
l.
l.
l.
Sir John Newport
l.
l.
90
91
Sir A. Wellesley
declared, that the ground on which he was induced to concur in the motion of his right hon. friend was, his conviction that the number of priests who would be educated at the College of Maynooth, would, according to his right hon. friend's proposition, added to those educated in other parts of Ireland (of whom the right hon. baronet had taken no notice), be folly adequate to the purposes for which they were required. As far as he understood, the number of Catholic priests necessary in Ireland was 2000. One hundred and eleven students were educated in different parts of that island, which he enumerated; these, added to the 250 which it was proposed to educate at Maynooth, made 361. The term of education was seven years, but frequently it did not extend beyond live. Supposing, therefore, that on the average 50 students would annually become fit for ordination, he conceived that this number would be sufficient to keep up the necessary establishment. The fact was, that when the Maynooth Institution was first established, it was not intended that it should be maintained by the public purse. The memorial presented previously to the foundation of that establishment, prayed for a charter, in order that their funds might be better secured. With respect to the 478 Catholic students, who, according to the right hon. baronet, were educated on the continent before the French Revolution, the fact was, that most of them received priests orders before, they went abroad. It would be found, upon enquiry, that about 300 of them supported themselves when abroad by the exercise of their functions as priests.
Mr. Ponsonby
ironically observed, that he had great satisfaction in noticing the strong disposition to economy manifested by the right hon. gentlemen opposite. To this motive alone could the curtailment now proposed be attributed. It was not
92
l.
l.
l.
93
The Chancellor of the Exchequer
disclaimed having ever stated a principle of economy, as the ground of the part he had felt it his duty to take on the subject of this grant. On the contrary, he was of opinion, that a saving of three, five, or ten thousand pounds, should not be any consideration to impede a measure of great and important public advantage. As to what the right hon. gent. had said with respect to the Bill now before the house, for the improvement of the Police of Dublin, he did not understand him to object to the grant for that purpose, and certainly the arguments he used in favour of an extended grant in the case under consideration, would apply with full effect in favour of that measure. The right hon. gent. argued, that the conduct of those who supported the original vote, arose from the pleasure they felt in refusing a boon to so large a proportion of the people of Ireland. But he was convinced that the generous mind of that right hon. gent. was incapable of supposing that any man could entertain such a sentiment. For himself, he felt no such sentiment, and when, from the perhaps mistaken view he had of the subject, (for he did not think himself infallible,) he was bound to refuse a grant that would be agreeable to a large portion of his majesty's subjects, it was always to him a painful duty. As to the assertion that the vote which he was to give was dictated by bigotry or intolerance, he could not admit that it could be ascribed to either. It was no part of religious toleration to make a provision for the education of the clergy of the tolerated sect. If it were so, they ought to go much farther, for the ministers of the Methodists, Anabaptists, and Quakers, would on that ground have as good a claim to education as the Catholic clergy; for in this respect, numbers made no difference. The present question was, therefore, unconnected with intolerance. It was the duty of the state to provide for the education of the ministers of the religion of its own establishment, but the same obligation did not apply to other sects. All that toleration required with respect to them, was, that no difficulty should be created to any measures they might take for their own education. On every question for an increase of grant, it was fit to
94
Mr. Ponsonby
insisted, that there had been an understanding between government and the Catholics, that a sum should be granted to this institution, sufficient to defray the expences of educating 400 students, and therefore he maintained that the present was a curtailed grant.
The Chancellor of the Exchequer
replied that whatever might have been the understanding between the Catholics and the government of which the right hon. gent. was a member, parliament did not stand committed by any such pledge.
Mr. W. Elliot
begged leave to explain how the fact really stood. The grant to the college of Maynooth, previous to the union, was only 8,000
l.
95
l.
l.
l.
96
Mr. Grattan
contended, that a provision for the education of 250 students would be insufficient to supply the vacancies that would occur in the Catholic clergy by deaths or casualties. To make up for this deficiency, the country would be left to two chances, private or foreign charity. One right hon. gent. had said that 111 were educated for the priesthood in private seminaries. But the education in these being only preparatory for the college, that was no education for the priesthood. By reducing the grant, the house would secure the ignorance and inveterate prejudices of a great portion of the Catholics. Proselytism was not to be expected under such circumstances. Religious conformity was impracticable, and political conformity, which was in their power, they would destroy by the course proposed. In endeavouring to enforce religious conformity, they would make the mass of that people inveterate Catholics and political enemies. Give them uneducated and ignorant priests, and you weaken the Protestant religion and the Protestant government. If provision be not made at home for the education of their clergy, they must seek it abroad. At present that could not happen; but we ought to look forward to a time of peace. Then they Mould go and bring back with them foreign connexions and foreign obligations. Why did we fear the Catholic religion? was it not from the foreign connexion which it involved? And whilst the spirit of Bonaparte pervaded the whole of the continent, was that a time I for keeping up the connexion? The students that went abroad for education under such circumstances, would acquire the same Deistical principles and political antipathies that would spread every where around them. They would therefore return religious Deists and political Catholics, to the great danger of overthrowing the government. It was true, that neither the ministers of the Methodists nor of the Quakers were educated at the public expence; but they were few in comparison, and the Catholics formed the great body of the people of Ireland. If the priests had any influence over the Catholics, they should be educated with sentiments of domestic attachment, not with those of our political enemies. He doubted whether the priests had as much absolute influence over the people of Ireland as was supposed, and the cause was, that they were not well educated. If they wished the
97
Mr. Croker
gave his rote for the smaller sum, not from any indisposition to the great body of the Irish Catholics, but because 250 students, for whose education that sum was adequate to provide, were amply sufficient to supply the vacancies in 2000 parishes. He stated that 369 persons had been educated at the College of Maynooth, and that one fifth of these had not taken religious orders, but had adopted other professions. He likewise objected generally to the principles of the Maynooth Institution, because, from the circumstance of the education being entirely gratuitous, the students were persons from the lowest ranks of life; and if this were not the case, the higher classes of those who belonged to the Roman Catholic persuasion would bring up their sons as clergymen; of which, at present, there were few or no instances.
Mr. M. Fitzgerald
thought it extremely impolitic to hazard the irritation of the Catholics of Ireland for the sake of the paltry sum of 3,750
l.
98
l.
l.
Mr. Parnell
vindicated the Roman Catholic clergy, and read extracts from documents in the year 1793, when Defenderism broke out in Ireland, and in 1798, the period of the late Rebellion, to prove their loyalty and peaceful demeanour.—The question being now loudly called for, the committee divided,
For the larger grant of 13,000
l.
58
For the lesser of 9,250
l.
93
Majority
-35
List of the Minority.
Abercromby, J.
Baring, A.
Anstruther; sir J.
Bewick, C.
Bagenal, W.
Biddulph, R. M.
99
Bowyer, sir T.
Latouche, J.
Brand, T.
Lutouche, R.
Calcraft, J.
Laurence, F.
Calvert, N.
Longman, G.
Cavendish, lord G.
Martin, H.
Cocks, E. C.
Montgomery, J.
Colborne, N. W. R.
Moore, P.
Combe, H. C.
Morpeth, viscount
Cowper, E. S.
Newport, sir J.
Creevey, T.
North, D.
Dundas, C. L.
Ossulston, lord
Ebringfon, viscount
Parnell, H.
Elliot, W.
Petty, lord H.
Fitzgerald, M.
Piggott, sir A.
Fitzgerald, J.
Ponsonby, G.
Fitzgerald, lord H.
Porchester, Lord.
Fitzpatrick, R.
Prittie, Hon. F. A.
French, A.
Pym, F.
Cower, carl
Quin, W. H.
Grattan, H.
Russell, lord W.
Halsey, J.
Smith, W.
Hamilton, Lord A.
Smith, J.
Herbert, A.
Somerville, sir M.
Hippisley, sir J. C.
Tierney, G.
Howard, W.
Wardell, G. L.
Hughes, W. L.
Whitbread, S.
Laing, M.
Windham, W.
Lambe, W.
HOUSE OF LORDS.
Monday, May 2, 1808.
[DEBTORS BILL.]
Lord Ellenborough
presented a bill, the object of which he stated to be the relief of persons imprisoned for small debts in certain cases, namely, where the party had been imprisoned in execution for twelve calendar months, and where the debt, exclusive of costs, did not exceed 20
l.
100
HOUSE OF COMMONS.
Monday, May 2, 1808.
[LOCAL MILITIA BILL.]
Lord Castlereagh,
in rising to move the order of the day for the second reading of the Local Militia bill, thought it might be for the convenience of the house, and tend to save time, that he should take that opportunity of apprizing gentlemen of a few alterations which he meant to propose in the committee upon the bill. The alterations he had in view bore so directly and so much upon the general principle of the bill, that he was inclined to suppose they would, when explained, narrow considerably the limits of any discussion upon that head. The first alteration which he meant to propose, he adopted in consequence of its having been thought desirable that the measure under consideration should contain a proviso for the exemption from its operation of persons who had actually served in the militia, either personally or by substitute, or who had incurred any penalties in consequence of the militia acts. In framing his bill, he had followed the principle of the Training bill of the right hon. gent, opposite (Mr. Windham), which looked to personal service, and extended to all not actually serving in some other force. It was thought, however, desirable to allow persons of the description to which he had alluded, an immunity equivalent to that which they enjoyed under the militia laws, and for that purpose a certain number of years was fixed upon as the period of exemption, rather than an indefinite time.—The next point upon which he proposed an alteration was, to enable Volunteer corps that might be disposed to serve as local militia rather than as volunteers, to change the nature of their service: and on this head it was to be expressly provided, that no decision of a majority of any corps should bind those, either officers or men, who might be indisposed to the change of service, to serve in the local militia contrary to their own wish. The clause he had to propose,
101
Mr. Whitbread
expressed his hope that in the committee the noble lord would introduce some clause to remedy the gross injustice suffered by those who were serving by substitute in the army of reserve, and had since been ballotted into the militia, and obliged to serve in person. There were several who had expended the fruits of all their earnings in providing a substitute in the army of reserve, at the expence of forty or fifty guineas, and who having afterwards been drawn for the militia, had not the means of procuring another substitute, and were consequently obliged to
102
Sir James Hall
said, there never was a period in the history of this country, wherein any man could have a better opportunity to immortalize his name than by the establishment of an efficient system of defence and security, menaced as we were by the combined hostilities of united Europe, urged on by the ambition and resentments of a too successful and implacable foe. He clearly saw that the object of the noble lord in the present bill was to repair that breach in the national strength, occasioned by a decay in the volunteering spirit of the people, by which he was compelled to the necessity of adopting the only means of organizing the whole physical strength of the country, namely, that of raising a force by ballot. It was very possible the bill might not be every thing which could be wished; but he approved of the principle; and if nothing better could be offered, he should give this bill his support. It was possible in the committee to make many amendments, and supply any defects which the bill in its present form might probably present.
Colonel Shipley
could not let this bill pass, even in this stage, or in any other, without entering his decided protest against its objects. It was remarkable enough, that in these times, when changes of ministry were so frequent, that every successive change was the parent of a new military system. Whatever might have been the merit of other systems, he could see in this neither an accession of strength to the country, nor of advantage to the army. Its only object seemed to be art increase of influence to ministers, unnecessary and unmerited. Little, indeed, did it consider the dignity or the comfort of the soldiery! To the system produced last year, he had the pleasure to give his unqualified approbation. It gave no influence to government; it flung no disgrace
103
104
Mr. J. Smith
was happy to find that the only substantial objection that could be urged against the bill was removed by the amendments proposed by the noble lord this night. He had been always a decided friend to the volunteer system. He was sorry the volunteers were not engaged for the war, as they might have been at its commencement. It remained now to apply the best remedy to the error then committed; and this measure was the remedy most efficacious, as it would go directly to make up for the falling off that must take place in a pure volunteer force after the urgency of the immediate call for their service should have ceased to operate with
105
Mr. Herbert
(of Kerry) saw nothing exceptionable in the bill, which he had read over with attention. The magnitude of the dangers with which the country was threatened required the exertion of all the powers of the empire for our defence; and this measure contained no more severity than the time required. The noble lord had made one material omission, which, however, might yet be remedied. The empire was indebted to the noble lord for the great measure of the Union; but that great measure was still imperfect, while there was not an unity of defensive force between the united kingdoms. It would be a measure worthy of the noble lord who had combated in the foremost ranks to effect the Union, to remedy that imperfection, and to render the great work complete. The hardship of the more distant removal from home would be reconciled by the urgency of the case, and would be but an addition to the alterations and improvements that had already been made on the original constitution of the militia. He was anxious that the bill should go to a committee, and hoped that the amendment he suggested would be made in that stage.
Sir Francis Burdett
agreed that the noble lord was the fittest person to originate such a measure as that now before the house. But the hon. gent, who spoke last, did not seem aware of what that measure would subject the country to. In former times, when the army was so composed that it could not be kept in order without extreme severity, it might have been right to enact and to enforce that military code, the penalties of which were now the exclusive disgrace of the British army and the British nation. But at the present time, when so great an amelioration had taken place in the discipline and composition of our military force, it was no longer excusable to continue those penal enactments; and, certainly, he should pause before he would give his consent to commit the whole people of England to what was dishonourable, and pernicious to the army itself. He had no objection to a conscription, in the full force of the word. He could never consider it a hardship on a man to be called upon to defend his home and his coun-
106
107
108
Colonel Wood
vindicated the military code of this country, which he pronounced to be the most lenient in Europe. It had been contended that the present plan was unpopular, and calculated to increase the influence of ministers: this he thought a contradiction in terms. He could not understand how a measure could give ministers influence, and be at the same time unpopular.
Mr. Whitbread
could easily remove the difficulty which the hon. gentleman had, of conceiving how any thing that would give patronage could be unpopular. Measures of taxation, for instance, were extremely unpopular, yet no measures were attended with more extensive patronage in the appointment of collectors, &c.; and even that patronage was felt as one of the greatest hardships annexed to them. His hon. friend behind him (Mr. Herbert) had complimented the noble lord opposite on his gallantry in fighting in the foremost ranks for the Union, and conquering the opponents of that measure. His hon. friend ought, however, to have recollected, that one of the greatest conquerors of antiquity asserted, that he would take any town into which he could get room for an ass laden with gold to enter. That this was the sort of agency employed in the conquest for which his hon. friend gave the noble lord so much credit, he had the authority of the Irish chancellor of the exchequer for believing. It was strange that the noble lord, who was formerly foremost in defence of the Volunteers, and who for that purpose imputed expressions to his right hon. friend which he had never made use of, should now bring forward a measure which went to absorb them altogether. For if that was not the object of the present measure, he could not see what it was good for. The noble lord regarded the Volunteers as an ancient orator did a great but dangerous political character of his time:
laudandi, ornandi
tollendi.
109
Mr. Wilberforce
began with lamenting that the country did not seem awake to the perils by which it was surrounded. Neither in nor out of parliament could he find that there was a sense adequate to the greatness of the dangers which impended
110
111
Mr. Windham
vindicated himself and his friends from the imputation of under-rating the danger of invasion. He could, however, remember a period of danger, the year 1798, when the hon. gent, who brought the charge (Mr. Wilberforce) had been mainly instrumental in forcing on the minister at that time (Mr. Pitt) a measure which put the government of this country in a course entirely new, and to which the
112
113
114
Lord Castlereagh
replied shortly to the several objections made against the bill. He had been taxed, he said, with having borrowed a great part of the materials from the plan of the right hon. gent. (Mr. Windham), and he was free to own, that in some instances that might be the case. He was by no means ashamed of borrowing any idea from the right hon. gent., as he was extremely desirous to give the country every possible advantage which it could derive from the talents of the right hon.
115
116
117
HOUSE OF COMMONS.
Wednesday, May 4, 1808.
[ANNUITIES TO SCOTCH JUDGES.]
The lord Advocate of Scotland moved that the house should resolve itself into a committee to consider further of the propriety of providing for Judges retiring from the Bench in Scotland, in consequence of old age and infirmity.
Mr. Abercromby
was unwilling, even in that early stage of the business, to let the present question pass without stating his objection to the principle. In the first place, there was no analogy whatever between those Judges and the Judges in England or Ireland, as the latter went circuit, and had, after discharging the business in their respective courts in the metropolis, to go through a weighty provincial duty; whereas, the former had not employment for two thirds of the year, and had no circuits to attend; the duties of the barons of the exchequer were not only very easy, and such as almost any man might perform, but also very light. He could not, under such circumstances, consent to any addition to the burthens of the people, so much burdened already, by compensation so unmerited and uncalled for.
The Lord Advocate
of Scotland, though be admitted that the duties of the exchequer barons was not heavy, still thought that Scotland had a right to expect that the liberality of this country would not deny to a supreme court of judicature in Scotland what they had already given to their own. He thought too, that the less the barons had to do, the less temptation they would have to retire from such light duty, and that consequently the public money would be the less encroached upon.
Mr. H. Martin
was anxious, that those who should have properly executed the laborious and important duty of administering justice should be liberally rewarded; and if the like laborious duties attached to the barons of the exchequer in Scotland as to those of England, there could be no reason why they should not have the same advantages of retirement. But the point was, that the judicial duties of the barons of the exchequer in Scotland were nothing; and their ministerial duties
118
The Solicitor-General
of Scotland supported the proposed provision generally. The paucity of the causes that were tried by the barons of the exchequer, was a proof of their beneficial arrangements in the collection of the revenue. The act of union, and subsequent acts, guaranteed and sanctioned that court; why, then, should it be excluded from the benefit of the general arrangement, the principle of which was universally approved of. Why should this exclusion be made at a time when, from the increase of the revenue, the business of the court of exchequer was every day extending, and when the court of exchequer passed all the public accounts of Scotland, even to those of the militia?
Mr. Whitbread
allowed there was no principle better than that of rewarding meritorious public servants, and particularly those concerned in the administration of justice. But a balance should always be held, in order that the public should pay neither too much nor too little. He thought it would be best in this case to await the returns, which by shewing the service done by the court of Exchequer in Scotland, would best direct the house, as to the proper extent of recompense. If this should not be done, he must oppose the provision, so far as regarded the barons of the Scotch Exchequer.
Mr. Rose
thought it would have an injurious effect on the characters of the present barons of the Exchequer of Scotland, and that it would prevent persons of respectable professional character from coming into that court in future, if an invidious exclusion should be made in the arrangement of the general provision. The extensive nature of their general functions, and their able external administration of the revenue, compensated for the paucity of the causes tried by them, of which paucity, the ability of their external administration of the revenue was, in fact, the cause.
Mr. Macdonald
contended, that it was not unfair to apportion public remuneration to the amount of public service, and for that purpose, to examine the particular nature and extent of the service was not invidious. It was proper to pause and inquire, before those who did much service and those who did little, were lumped in one general provision.
Mr. R. Dundas
enlarged on the extensive duties performed by the Barons of the
119
Sir F. Burdett
thought it impossible for the house, after what had passed, not to hesitate before it granted pensions to persons in the situation of the Barons of Exchequer in Scotland, who, it appeared, were not men who had quitted great professional practice and emolument to become Judges, but were, generally speaking, men to whom it would, from their former habits of life, be an object, on account even of the emolument, to be appointed to such an office. But still, he could not agree with the doctrine that it was expedient that Judges should be allowed to retire on their salaries, or rather with pensions, after a certain number of years service. Why was not a Judge sufficiently recompenced for the discharge of his judicial functions at the time he performed them? If he was not so, he wished to know why that was not the case, and why adequate provisions against the ordinary chances of declining years or health were not made in their annual salary? He could easily see how, from the adoption of a contrary practice, abuses might creep in. If at one time, a good ground for granting a pension of this kind chanced to occur, that would, on every future occasion, be esteemed sufficient, even where there was no propriety whatever in the grant. He often heard gentlemen on the ministerial side of the house call upon those on the side on which he sat for parliamentary grounds, for any proposition submitted by them. He did not see that there was any such ground for the proposed measure, and he should not do his duty if he did not oppose it. He protested against the idea of liberality, when such liberality was to be shewn by grants out of other people's pockets.
The Chancellor of the Exchequer
supported the motion for going into a committee, and Dr. Laurence opposed it; when the house divided,
Ayes 68; Noes 25. Majority 43.
The house having accordingly gone into the committee,
The Lord Advocate
120
Mr. Bankes
objected that the crown had already a sufficiency of funds in its hands for carrying into execution the measure now proposed. He thought it would have the effect of liberating too great a fund of patronage to the crown, independant of the pensions which already existed. Perhaps it was not generally known, that in Scotland, during his present majesty's reign, the pension-list had been increased eight-fold. There was no limit to it as there was to the pension-list in England. It was, indeed, unlimited, and was only bounded by the surplus revenue. He was, therefore, of opinion, that the house should stop till it saw whether this additional power was required to be granted to the crown. As to the barons of exchequer, they seemed to him to be rather a board of revenue than of justice, and for the remuneration of revenue officers, there were unquestionably already sufficient funds in the hands of the crown. The honourable member stated afterwards the amount of pensions in Scotland to be at present upwards of 40,000
l.
l.
HOUSE OF COMMONS.
Thursday, May 5, 1808.
[ASSESSED TAXES BILL.]
Mr. Huskisson
Mr. Biddulph
opposed the motion, as his objection to the bill was radical, and was not confined to any of its provisions. He understood that the sum to be produced by it, and to accrue to the Consolidated Fund, in consequence, was about 100,000
l.
121
Mr. Rose
shewed, that if those Revenues had been applied as wished for by the hon. gent. a deficiency must then be occasioned in the Civil List, which it would become necessary for parliament to make good. In the amount also, the hon. gent. must be very much mistaken. So far from amounting to 100,000
l.
l.
Mr. Huskisson
held in his hand the Accounts moved for by the hon. gent, by which it appeared, that since 1797, they amounted only to 30,614
l.
Mr. Biddulph
declared, that the Account which had been laid on the table of the house in consequence of his motion, was a very imperfect one, and complained of the difficulty which he experienced in obtaining satisfactory documents on this subject.—The house then divided on the question that the Speaker do leave the chair:
Ayes 51; Noes 21. Majority 30.
The house then went into a committee accordingly.
[MAYNOOTH COLLEGE.]
Mr. Wharton
brought up the report, of the Committee of Supply, relative to the grant of 9,250
l.
Sir J. Newport
contended that the reduction of the grant of last year was calculated to irritate the great body of the Catholics, and particularly to alienate the priests, whose influence had been so much talked of. The question now was, whether the priests should be educated or uneducated, for priests would be at all events found. The reason why the Roman Catholic nobility and gentry did not educate their sons for the priesthood was, because it afforded them neither prospects of honours or emolument. When he looked to the situation of the empire and of Europe, when he considered the exclusion of the Catholics from education on the continent
122
Sir A. Wellesley
stated in reply, that when he had asserted in a former debate, that the Catholics had originally proposed to support this institution, he had done so on the authority of their original memorial to government, a copy of which had been furnished him by Dr. Troy. This memorial was dated the 14th of Jan. 1794, and shewed that the object in the contemplation of the Catholics at that time was to be permitted to establish the institution with their own funds.
Colonel Montagu Mathew
expressed his astonishment, that the hon. general who came forward as minister for Ireland, should be more ignorant of its situation than an humble individual like himself. He could tell that hon. member, that the private seminaries were only preparatory schools for the college of Maynooth. He had been within the last ten days at Maynooth, and he could assure the house, that unless the whole of last year's grant should be voted, the buildings upon which former grants had been expended, would fall. There was no lead on the roofs, and the rain penetrated through them. He declared himself to be a supporter of the Catholics, and having lived on terms of intimacy with the people of the South of Ireland for several years past, he could declare for them also. The hon. colonel then alluded to the offer made by order of Buonaparte, to induce Irish Students to go for education to France from Lisbon and Ireland, upon a promise of a restoration of all the Irish bourses, and read an extract from the answer of the Irish Catholic Bishops, stating their gratitude to the government for the liberal support of Maynooth, and denouncing suspension against any functionaries, and exclusion from preferment in Ireland against any students, who should accept the offers of the enemy of their country. Would any one say after that, that the Catholics were not to be confided in? If they were not to be trusted, why not dismiss them from the army and navy? Why allow them to vote at elections? Why had lord Westmoreland come down to the Irish parliament
123
Mr. C. Wynne
lamented the secret influence by which the measures of the government were defeated, and the interests of the country sacrificed. Even the cabinet could not be agreed upon this reduction. Neither the duke of Portland, lord Camden, a right hon. secretary, not then in his place, nor a noble lord high in his majesty's councils, who was also absent, could have concurred in this proceeding. If any one duty was more imperious than another upon that house, it was that of providing for the education of the great body of his majesty's subjects in Ireland.
The Chancellor of the Exchequer
disclaimed the odious principle of intolerance. The memorial of the Catholics which led to the establishment at Maynooth, claimed no pecuniary aid. The Catholics promised to defray the whole expence themselves, and though the government and parliament gave them 8000
l.
124
Lord H. Petty
was not surprised that the right hon. gent. was so indignant at the imputation of secret influence, when it was so well known that the present administration was formed on principles particularly repugnant, to that sort of influence! The proceedings with respect to a late measure (the Reversion bill) were fully illustrative of this point. The absence of the right hon. gent.'s colleagues on the present occasion, was probably owing to a sort of compromise which did not yield obedience to such influence, nor yet decidedly resist its interposition. The money which was the subject of the present debate, was in amount little to give, but was every thing to refuse. It was not a fourth part of what within the last 24 hours had been voted for a more ample provision for the Scotch judges, a provision very proper where service had been done to give a claim to it, but in his opinion, not so proper where there had been no service. The principle of the education of the Catholic clergy had received the countenance of the nominal head of the present administration, who, if he preserved a shred of any principle, was bound to support it now. It had also received the countenance of lord Westmoreland and lord Camden, both members of the present cabinet, when in the situation of lords lieutenant of Ireland. It had been sanctioned by the revered lord Cornwallis, the respected lord Hardwicke, and the late chief governor of Ireland.
Mr. Wilberforce
considered the present as a subject of considerable delicacy, and the difficulties arising out of the subject itself were not a little aggravated by the manner in which it had been discussed, and which tended to produce irritation rather than conciliation. He should have expected something better from the patriotism of the noble lord, and of those with whom he acted, and it was not without very great pain that he had heard the mode of argument to which they had this evening resorted. Toleration, he said, as explained both by Mr. Locke and Rousseau, was to leave to others the right of professing and teaching their own religious principles in their own way, as far as was compatible with the peace and security of society,
125
Lord Milton
doubted his hon. colleague's practical regard for toleration, when he recollected his opposition to a bill to enable dissenters to hold commissions in his majesty's service. He was as warm a friend to the protestant religion as his hon. colleague; but it was because he was a friend to protestantism that he wished to enlighten the catholics; for this was the most likely means of gaining them over to the protestant faith.
Mr. Laing
contended, that the present was not a question of toleration or of bigotry, but of pure legislation. It was only by conferring benefits upon the Roman-catholics that their affections could be gained, and that they could be rendered good and loyal subjects. In this view he considered it as highly impolitic to sacrifice so important an object for a consideration so extremely inconsiderable as 3,000
l.
Mr. Herbert
(of Kerry) was of opinion that, in the present circumstances, curtailing the former grant to the Irish catholic seminary was one of the most impolitic measures that could be devised.
Lord Porchester
supported the grant of the larger sum.
Mr. Ponsonby
did not wish to take up the time of the house; but, at the same time, it was impossible not to notice what had fallen from the chancellor of the exchequer. No person was indeed better
126
l.;
l.
Mr. Stephens
adverted to one or two of the general objections which Protestants have to the Catholic faith; but only so far as was necessary to repel some harsh attacks of the opposition speakers, and support his declared opinion that we could not, as members of a Protestant communion, consistently or conscientiously educate clergymen for the Catholic Church, a ground on which he would have opposed that particular mode of assisting the Catholics of Ireland, if the question of founding the Maynooth College were then before the house, and on the same principle felt himself bound to oppose the further, and as he conceived, needless extension of that establishment. He was sure that the feelings of sincere and pious Papists would revolt at the idea of educating, at their own charge, clergymen for the Church of England, to propagate what they deemed heretical doctrines; and sincere Protestants, who regarded the distinguishing tenets and rites of the church of Rome as corruptions of Christianity, were bound on the same principle, not to be directly
127
Mr. Grattan
was sorry to see gentlemen enter so largely into an attack on the religion of one-fifth of the subjects of these kingdoms. He believed they spoke in the sincerity of their hearts, and from the purest motives; but these would produce consequences deadly to the interests of this country, and advantageous to France. To discourage the education of the catholic
128
Dr. Duigenan
read the oath of the catholic priests, in order to shew that they paid an obedience to the pope, which was inconsistent with the king's supremacy. The provisions for the education of the established clergy, fell short of those proposed to be granted for the priests at Maynooth. There were in the University of Dublin, 30 poor scholars, who got but a dinner once a day; and 72 scholars of the house that got a dinner once a day, and no lodgings. He described the catholics as bad subjects and hostile to the state.
Mr. Barham
to order, objected to the use of such language in speaking of 4,000,000 of his majesty's subjects.
The Speaker
declared, that the freedom of debate did not preclude such language.
Dr. Duigenan
repeated his former sentiments. He declared, that if any one would move to withdraw the public aid altogether from Maynooth, he would second the motion.
Mr. W. Smith
could not help congratulating the councils of his majesty, and the British empire, on the wisdom and liberality they were likely to acquire in the person of the learned gent, who had just sat down, and who, if report spoke correctly, was about to assume the title of 'right honourable.' If ever there was a mark of wisdom in the councils of any country, it was to be found in this latter circumstance, joined to the refusal of the higher grant now moved for. Ministers were now about to recommend to his majesty to take into his councils a gentleman, who told that house that four millions of his majesty's subjects were hostile to his government, and would, in case of emergency, be its bitterest enemies. He called on the hon. gent. (Mr. Wilberforce), to say where was now the liberality of which the government had to boast; and he appealed to him, whether the language of the gentleman alluded to, was not most vilifying and disgraceful?
Mr. Barham
expressed his abhorrence of the language used by Dr. Duigenan, declaring that never words were uttered so dangerous, abominable, and false; or so likely to separate the kingdom and to deluge it in blood. Of the religion of the
Mr. Tierney
wished simply to ask the right hon. gent. opposite, whether the learned gentleman who had been alluded to was of the Privy Council of Ireland, or was about to be?
The Chancellor of the Exchequer
did not believe the order to that effect had gone over.
Mr. Tierney
was sure the right hon. gent. would not quibble with him on this point. It was nothing to say the order was not gone; did the right hon. gent, believe it would go?
Sir A. Wellesley
had no hesitation to say, that the lord lieutenant had recommended that the learned gent. should be made a member of the privy council; and the reason of that recommendation was, that the learned gent.'s presence was absolutely necessary for the dispatch of the ecclesiastical affairs, which were so considerable n part of the business of the Privy Council.
HOUSE OF COMMONS.
Friday, May 6, 1808.
[AFFAIRS OF THE EAST INDIA COMPANY.]
Mr. Creevey
rose, agreeably to notice, to move for certain papers to elucidate the real state of the Affairs of the East India Company. He said, he should shortly state his reasons for making the motions with which it was his intention to conclude. Last year a petition had been presented for leave to borrow two millions on bonds, and about a fortnight ago a petition was presented asking a loan of the public money to the extent of 1,200,000
l
129
l
l
l.,
l
l
130
l.,
Mr. R. Dundas
declared, that in suggesting the persons who formed the committee on Indian affairs, he had nothing in view but to propose those who, from their knowledge of the subject, were most likely to give satisfactory information to the committee. He was sorry the hon. gent. had
not objected to them at the time they were appointed. He confessed he did not see what progress could have been made in the inquiry without the assistance of the very persons alluded to. He was certain the hon. gent. would admit that no information in the power of the directors to procure had been withheld. The paper, however, which the hon. member first moved for, was one which must, in the course of a few days, come before the house, under the act of parliament. The committee was in the course of preparing a report, which would be submitted to the house along with every document necessary. There was no ground for supposing that the report would not be made, or that the house would be called on to grant any loan without having the requisite evidence before them in the first place. The motion was therefore premature, if not altogether unnecessary. He thought it was not perfectly candid of the hon. gent. to insinuate that any of the members of the committee would be induced from interested motives to make a report they would not otherwise have made. To shew that they were above all suspicion, he read the names of the committee, and concluded by moving the previous question.
Dr. Laurence
vindicated the position of his hon. friend relative to the constitution of the committee, and contended, that without meaning any personality or disrespect to any individual of which it was composed, it was perfectly competent to him to state any legal disqualification for their serving on such a committee.
Sir J. Anstruther
vindicated, at some length, the conduct of the committee; he said as to himself, the situation which he held did by no means incapacitate him from judging and deciding fairly any question concerning the solvency or insolvency of the East India Company: his situation did not depend upon them, and his income was solely derived from the India revenue.
Lord Folkestone
was glad that his hon. friend had brought this question before the house, and should give his support to the motion.
Mr.F W. Smith
thought that his hon. friend had been harshly treated. Without meaning any personality, and disclaiming any intention of disrespect to any member of the committee, his hon. friend had alluded to the general unfitness, which arose from his immediate interest. But, certainly the imputation ought not to have been met by
Mr. Wallace
considered that the papers wanted would necessarily come under consideration when the committee should have made its report, and therefore, that the motion was premature.
Mr. Grant
defended the character of the committee for impartiality, and had no objection to the production of the accounts, because he was convinced that they would convey a very favourable impression of the state of the company's affairs. He deprecated, however, all discussion upon the subject before the committee made their report, not only as premature, but uncandid. As far as regarded his own conduct, he expressed a hope, that as a member of that committee, as well as in every other situation, his conduct would be guided by a principle of integrity and uprightness.
Mr. Patteson
had seen no reason to complain of a disposition on the part of those connected with the Company, to withhold any information that was necessary to guide the inquiries and decision of the committee.
Mr. Creevey
foretold that the East India Company would again apply next year to parliament for a loan, that the year after a similar application would be made, and that there was no probability of any loan that was granted ever being repaid. Upon this ground, he contended that it was highly expedient that the public should be made thoroughly acquainted with the real state of their affairs. He should not, however, press the question to a division, if the sense of the house appeared to be against him.—After some farther conversation, the motions were withdrawn, as was likewise the previous question.
HOUSE OF COMMONS.
Monday, May 9, 1808.
[CROWN LANDS.]
Mr. Rose,
in rising to move for certain papers relative to the hereditary revenue of the crown, stated his object to be the correction of a number of errors into which an hon. gent. who proposed to make this revenue the subject of a financial arrangement for the year (Mr. Biddulph) had fallen. That hon. gent, had stated, that the crown lands were let for only 50,000
l.
131
l.
[EXPEDITION TO THE DARDANELLES.]
Colonel Wood
Mr. R. Ward
was not aware of any official objection to the motion, but he thought it would be but fair to the gallant admiral with whose conduct the paper was connected, to allow him every opportunity of elucidating the circumstances as far as he was concerned.
Admiral Harvey
thought that some satisfactory reason ought to have been assigned for the production of this paper. He complimented admiral Duckworth in high terms, and expressed a wish that it had fallen to his lot to pass the Dardanelles in the same circumstances with admiral Duckworth, as he certainly should have considered it as a feather in his cap as long as he lived. If the hon. gent. wished for information, he was surprized that he had not moved for a copy of the admiral's, and not of the captain's, Log-book.
Colonel Wood
said, that it was notorious that the expedition to the Dardanelles had failed of its object, and as had been given out, from the state of the winds and currents. It was of importance, then, that that house should know what really was the state of the winds and currents at the time; which could only be done in a satisfactory way, by the production of one of the captain's log-books who was employed on the expedition. It was extremely desirable that the house should know whether the expedition failed from misconduct or from unavoidable causes;
132
Mr. W. Taylor
said a few words in favour of the motion.
The Chancellor of the Exchequer
was of opinion, that sufficient reasons had not been given for the production of the paper; at any rate, he did not see why the log-book of the Royal George should be particularly singled out; and if information was wanted, why all the log-books of the squadron were not called for.
Colonel Wood
had no objection whatever to the production of the log-books of all the ships.
Mr. Whitbread
professed to entertain the highest respect for the character of admiral Duckworth, but he did not consider the splendid achievements of that gallant officer as a bar to any investigation into the causes of the failure of the expedition to the Dardanelles. He should therefore vote for the production of the paper.
Sir C. Pole
contended, that if it was meant to impute any blame to admiral Duckworth, either directly or indirectly, it would be but fair that he should have timely notice of such an intention. He likewise took this opportunity of observing, that, in his opinion, the question which stood for discussion on this evening, ought not to have been brought on in the absence of sir R. Strachan, or of some person qualified and authorized to defend his conduct, as far as it might be implicated in the question.
Mr. Wellesley Pole
was also of opinion, that if there was an intention of imputing blame to admiral Duckworth, ample notice should be given, for the purpose of allowing the gallant admiral sufficient time to take measures for the vindication of his honour and character. As to what had fallen from the honourable admiral who spoke last, respecting sir Rd. Strachan, he must observe that it was not the intention of the hon. gent. who had given notice of a motion on this evening, to impute the least degree of blame to that gallant officer. He meant, as he understood his intention, to bring forward a charge in a manly way against the admiralty board; and certainly, in defending the conduct of that board, he should not throw the smallest censure upon the conduct of that excellent and meritorious officer.
Colonel Wood
withdrew his motion for the present evening, with the intention of bringing it forward on this day se'nnight.
[ROCHFORT SQUADRON.]
Mr. Calcraft,
in rising to Tiring forward the motion of which he had given notice, began with professing, that nothing was more distant from his intention than to throw out the slightest reflection upon the conduct of sir Rd. Strachan, for whose character, both as a naval officer and a man, he entertained the highest veneration: and nothing which had fallen from the hon. baronet (sir C. Pole) went to impute to him any such intention. All that that hon. baronet had said, was, that the testimony of sir Rd. Strachan would be very material in guiding the decision of the house upon the question, which he was now bringing before it, and in this he perfectly agreed with him. For example, there was one paper that had been moved for, for the purpose of shewing the reasons which made it necessary for sir Rd. Strachan to quit his station before the port of Rochfort, prior to the sailing of the French squadron from that port in Jan. last. He understood that no such communication had been received at the admiralty, and therefore there remained a chasm in the evidence, which it would have been most desirable to supply by the evidence of the gallant admiral himself, could he have been called to give such evidence at the bar of the house. He had also good reason to believe, that sir Rd. Strachan had found it necessary to take water and provisions from the Ferrol squadron; but there was no evidence to this effect in the papers which were on the table of the house; and as the admiral was not present to be examined as to the truth of the fact, he should leave this circumstance out of the charge that he meant to bring forward. The charge, limited as it was, he did not bring forward upon trivial or light grounds. It was important that its merits should be fairly and fully investigated, both for the interests of the public service and for the honour of the admiralty. When the gentlemen belonging to this department of government talked of a squadron being victualled for two or three months, if they meant any thing at all, they must mean that the squadron was in a state capable of serving all the purposes to which it might be, called. When a squadron was employed in a blockading service, it was necessary, not only that it should be in a condition to keep its station, but as its utmost vigilance did not at all times suffice to prevent the enemy's fleet from putting to sea, it ought also to
133
134
Mr. Wellesley Pole
rose and said, that as the hon. gent, had thought proper to move a series of Resolutions without at present following them up with any thing expressive of the object avowed, he should feel it his duty to move the previous question upon the first Resolution. He was, he confessed, not a little surprised to hear that object still avowed by the hon. gent., after his having perused the papers that had been laid upon the table of the house, because he thought that those papers must impress the mind of every candid man with a conviction of the zeal, vigilance, and activity, of the present board of admiralty. The hon. gent, had brought two most serious charges against the board; one was, that the board paid no attention whatever to the repeated and earnest requisitions of the several commanders of the blockading squadrons, complaining of want of provisions, and requiring relief and supply. The other was, that sir R. Strachan had been compelled to abandon his station off Rochfort, in consequence of want of provisions. Here he would observe, that the rendezvous appointed by the admiralty for sir R. Strachan's squadron in case of their being dispersed by bad weather, was off the Chasseron light-house. He
Mr. Tierney
spoke to order. He observed that all the papers moved for by his hon. friend, and all the papers moved for in justification of their conduct by the gentlemen opposite, were on the table. He conceived it would be productive of great inconvenience were the practice to be continued of allowing a member to draw from his pocket a paper, not regularly before the house, and to read from it such portions as he might think conducive to his object.
The Speaker
said, that certainly much had lately passed upon this subject in the house. He did not however feel authorized to state that any precise or positive rule of order existed, with regard to it. It appeared to him to rest wholly with the discretion of the house, who would of course pronounce their judgment according to the circumstances of the case.
Mr. Ponsonby
thought that if the house had never adopted a rule to prevent this practice, they ought to do so. Nothing could be more injurious to debate, or more replete with absurdity, for what would be the consequence if—
The Chancellor of the Exchequer
spoke to order, observing, that it was one thing to state what the order of the house at present was, and another to consider what it would be expedient to make it.
Mr. Ponsonby
said, that if the hon. gent. persisted in reading a document not formally before the house, he should move an adjournment of the debate.
Mr. Wellesley Pole
then said, that he should be sorry to persist in any thing unpleasant to the house, and should not press doing what might be offensive to the gentlemen opposite. He would therefore not read the letter, but content himself with stating the substance of that letter, and let the house give it whatever credit it thought due to his character. He would then take upon himself to assert, that sir
135
136
versus
Sir Charles Pole
totally differed from the hon. gent, who had just sat down, both as to the facts themselves, and the inferences which he drew from them: he read extracts from many different letters on the table, by which he shewed that the fleet off Rochfort were very badly provided, and could not have followed the enemy move than three or four days. The power of dispatching ships to relieve sir R. Strachan, it was plain, was not vested in lord Gardner; else he surely would not have sent off five different and anxious letters to the admiralty on the subject. He read extracts from a letter, dated 11th of Dec. stating to the admiralty the distress of the fleet, which letter was answered by the admiralty on the 18th, sending a supply of provisions in one victualling ship: although this ship was intended for the supply of three squadrons, namely, that off L' Orient, off Ferrol, and Rochefort, yet she did not convey more than equal to sixteen days bread, for the line of battle ships off Rochefort alone. He said, if every pound of bread, which had been so sent, had been received by the Rochefort fleet alone, it would not have put it in a situation to follow the enemy. Such inattention on the part of the admiralty was the greatest blow England could receive, as it would be the greatest triumph the enemy could obtain. That day was perilous to us indeed, when we found ourselves unable to furnish 7 sail of the line sufficiently to keep their stations. He could not conceive what was meant by sending one store-ship out to supply such a fleet with bread, wine, and water. He could not foretel what would be the decision of the house, but he knew well what would be the sense of the country on such conduct: the house might divide three to one in its favour, but the nation would not be a whit the more convinced. He then read an extract from a letter to the board of admiralty, dated the 15th Dec. in which it was declared, that the fleet was in total want both of sails, water, and every other necessary with which a fleet should be provided. In consequence of such a situation, sir Richard Strachan was compelled to quit his anchorage, to look out for victuallers; what was the event? The enemy, taking the advantage of his absence, escaped out of Rochefort, which they never could have done,
137
138
Mr. R. Ward
stated, that the general plan pursued by every Admiralty, was to keep a sufficient, force off every blockaded port, adequately equipped and provisioned to watch the force of the enemy. The mode of relieving these squadrons was by sending out vessels, ship by ship, provided, not only with their own equipments, but loaded also for the equipment of others. The commander in chief of the Channel Fleet was the person to see that they were properly victualled, and regularly relieved, and he corresponded for that purpose with the port admiral at Portsmouth and Plymouth. Every page of the papers shewed that lord Gardner had acted in that manner. It might happen, however, that this plan of blockade, during a naval campaign, might, under the pressure of more important objects, be altogether suspended. At the time to which the papers referred, the expedition to Copenhagen, and the return of the fleet and the prizes, had occupied much of the attention of the Admiralty. Squadrons were also provided to blockade the Tagus, and to convey the Royal Family of Portugal to the Brazils. Another squadron was also assembled at Spithead, of sufficient force to meet the Russian fleet then expected to come up the Channel. He called upon the gentlemen opposite, who were disposed to be fair, to give credit to the letter of sir Rd. Strachan, declaring his approbation of the attention of the Admiralty to his squadron. It appeared by the papers, that, in November, the squadron had ten weeks provisions on board, and that 18 days after, ten transports, one of which was immediately driven back, and only four of which were able to reach their destination, had been sent out with 700 ton of water to the squadron. The large ship was sent out with a temporary supply only, and he admitted that the Admiralty was answerable for every thing up to 21st of December, at which date the squadron had six weeks water, six weeks and four days bread, and eight or nine weeks beef, pork, and wine. It might be a question why the Mediator had not sailed till the 6th of Jan.; but he shewed from the letters from admiral Young, that the weather alone prevented her sailing, and he was confident the hon. gent. would not question the authority of that, gallant officer. He denied most positively, and challenged any gentleman to prove, that sir Rd. Strachan had for a single moment, left his station. The hon. bart. had fallen into an error, when he asserted, that the Admiralty was blamable for not sending out the supplies earlier. They could not contend with the elements,
Mr. G. Ponsonby
observed, that the Resolution went to say that sir R. Strachan's squadron was not supplied with provisions, and that was proved by the documents on the table, beyond a question. It had been said, that sir Richard had never left his station on account of the want of provisions. A letter from him, dated the 21st of Nov., says, 'The wind having veered to the Northward, he stretched out to sea to try to meet some of the transports that he had expected.' Why proceed to sea, in an uncertain pursuit, to look after transports, if not in want of provisions? and if he did proceed to sea, he must have gone off his station. The letter of sir Richard, upon which the hon. gentlemen prided themselves so much, contained not a particle of any thing that could support them. Sir Richard had written several letters to his commanding officer, lord Gardner, stating the situation of the squadron, and its want of provisions; but finding the supplies did not come, he wrote to the Board of Admiralty. The consequence was, he received a supply; and this boasted prize, this letter, commending the board, went just so far as to say, he thanked them for the attention they had paid to his communication. Did this exculpate them? Did he say any thing about what had been the situation of the fleet? No: but look to his letter of the 23d of Jan., four days after the French had got out, and what does he say, after all the boasted supplies reached him? 'That if his provision and water would last him, he would follow the enemy over the world.' A blockading squadron ought to have pro-
139
The house then divided on the previous question, Ayes 146; Noes 69. Majority against the Resolution 77.
HOUSE OF LORDS.
Tuesday, May 10, 1808.
[OFFICES IN REVERSION BILL.]
Lord Hawkesbury,
on moving the 2nd reading of this bill, stated briefly the former proceedings respecting this subject, and contended that there was a material difference between the principle of this bill, and that of the former bill, which went to the total abolition of the prerogative of granting offices in reversion, upon the mere ground of expediency, stated in the preamble, whilst, in the present bill, it was only proposed to suspend that prerogative for a limited period, and that on special ground stated in the preamble, namely, with a view to inquiries now pending in the house of commons. It was easy to conceive that such a suspension might be of mate-
140
Lord Redesdale
repeated his former arguments upon this subject, and thought the bill the first step to measures pregnant with danger to the constitution, and which therefore they ought to resist in the outset. He considered the former bill as less exceptionable than the present; as in that, what was decided was broadly and fairly stated, but in this he conceived an attempt was made to draw their lordships into an approbation of measures which might prove highly injurious, and which, if rumours were to be believed, would tend to a material invasion of the constitution. The bill in itself would, if passed, be an infringement of the constitution, for which no adequate reason was stated. It was not enough to say that inquiries were pending; their lordships ought to be informed of the nature of the measures which were intended to be proposed, and for which this bill was to lead the way. The former bill had been rejected, and he thought the house ought to make a stand upon their independance, and reject this also, coming, as it did, so immediately after the rejection of the other, and standing as it did on no better, or rather on worse grounds.
Earl Grosvenor
supported the bill, in order that there might be no obstacle in the way of the labours of the committee of finance; and the more so as there was supposed to be a disposition somewhere, though not open and avowed, to throw impediments in the way of that committee. The objection of the noble and learned lord, that there was no recommendation from the crown, could surely be of little avail after the recommendations from the throne at the end of the last and the commencement of the present parliament, to adopt measures with a view to economy in the public expenditure. The noble and learned lord had talked of measures to which this would lead, and which would endanger the constitution; but what was the object of the committee of finance? simply to consider of economy, and to prevent a lavish expenditure of the public money, at a crisis like the present, when burdens, however necessary, pressed heavily upon the people. From such measures, instead of danger, the most beneficial consequences would result. He considered the present bill as of little efficacy compared with the former; but it should nevertheless have his support, rather than that no measure of the kind should be adopted.
The Earl of Moira
professed himself at a loss to discover any reason which existed for passing the present bill. He thought it was incumbent upon those who proposed or supported a measure which infringed upon a prerogative that had been exercised for 300 years, to shew that abuses existed in the exercise of that prerogative, or that some great public benefit would be derived from its limitation or its abolition. In this case, however, nothing of this nature had been shewn, nor was there any evidence before them that such a measure could be of the slightest utility. He thought there had been a great public delusion upon this subject, and that advantages had been held out which could not by any possibility result from this measure. He could not consider this measure as of the slightest importance with a view to economy; nor was there any information before the house to prove, in any other point of view, its necessity or expediency.
Earl Morton
observed, that the former bill having been rejected, a new bill, of a similar description, ought not, according to the ancient usage of the constitution, to be entertained; and from the circumstances under which this bill had come up, he thought the house ought to make a stand here in support of their own independence, and reject it.
Lord Holland
thought there was little necessity for combating the arguments used against the bill, as the speech of his noble friend (the earl of Moira) who opposed the bill, and the speeches of the noble lords on the other side who also opposed the bill, answered each other. The noble lords on the other side thought the bill would actually destroy the constitution, whilst his noble friend, on the contrary, thought it a measure of no consequence. With this contrariety of opposition, there needed little to be said in support of the
Lord Somers
supported the bill, chiefly on the ground that he conceived secret influence to have been used in the rejection of the former bill; and wherever it appeared, he thought it his duty to make a firm stand in opposition to it.—The bill was then read a second time.
HOUSE OF COMMONS.
Tuesday, May 10, 1808.
[KING'S MESSAGE RELATING TO THE
The Chancellor of the Exchequer
presented the following Message from the king:
R.
141
[DEMISED REVENUES OF THE CROWN.]
Mr. Biddulph,
in pursuance of his notice, moved for a committee to consider how far the provisions of the act of the 1st of his present majesty, by which it had been directed, that the Demised Revenues of the Crown should be carried into and made a part of the Aggregate Fund, had been complied with. The hon. gent, entered into a long explanation of the subject. He repeated his former assertions with regard to the value of these revenues, which he estimated at 200,000
l.
Mr. Rose
questioned the accuracy of some of the hon. gent.'s statements, and denied that the present amount of the demised crown revenues exceeded 35,000
l.
l.
[CURATES RESIDENCE BILL.]
On the motion for the recommittal of this bill,
Lord Porchester
argued against the bill, on the ground that while it violated the
142
Mr. Windham
had carefully applied himself to the examination of the bill, and the result was that he thought it very injudicious, very pernicious in point of principle, and inefficient as to any good practical purpose. He remarked, that two views were entertained of the nature of church property; the one was, that it was inviolable, like private property; the other, that it was merely to be considered in the nature of a salary for a particular duty, and that the legislature might interfere with it and alter it with as little ceremony as the salaries of any public office. He thought that neither of these two propositions was just in its full extent. He was disposed to concur in the theory of the right hon. gent., that it was inviolable like private property; but that the legislature had a right to interfere, so far as to provide that the duties attached to it were performed. But then he asserted, that the meddling with this property, in the manner proposed by the bill, was dangerous to the church establishment; for the bill seemed to be founded on the principle maintained by those who held that all those clergymen, who were not employed in parish duties, were useless members of that establishment. The law allowed pluralities. Clergymen, therefore, could not always reside on their livings; and attaching penalties to that which the law permitted, he contended, was unjust. It also seemed to proceed on the supposition, that the number of curates was limited. This was not the case; and the augmenting a few curacies would only bring a greater number into holy orders, and by that means increase the distress of the whole. On the whole, the bill went to a dangerous violation of church property, without any chance of improving the general condition of the curates.
Dr. Laurence
argued, that there was danger in almost every view in which the measure in question could be taken.
The Solicitor General
supported the bill, as a measure that was best adapted to the welfare of the church.
Mr. Whitbread
would vote for the bill being committed. The only objection he had to it was that it did not go far enough.—The house then divided upon lord Porchester's amendment. Ayes, 11; Noes, 94; Majority, 83.
HOUSE OF LORDS.
Wednesday, May 11, 1808.
[SCOTCH JUDICATURE BILL.]
On the third reading of this bill,
The Earl of Lauderdale
regretted, that after the subject had been so long before the house, so little should be done by this bill, and particularly that no regulation was made with respect to the Court of Tiends. He wished also that something-more had been done, with respect to the introduction of trial by jury.
The Lord Chancellor
thought that nothing should he done with respect to tiends until after a judicial decision as to the rights of the clergy.
Lord Hawkesbury
defended the bill, which he thought would tend to operate a material reform in the administration of justice in Scotland. With respect to trial by jury, the house was not yet ripe for deciding that point, nor did he believe that it was sufficiently understood in Scotland.—The bill was then read a third time, and passed.
HOUSE OF COMMONS.
Wednesday, May 11, 1808.
[DUCHESS OF BRUNSWICK.]
The Chancellor of the Exchequer
l.
Mr. Whitbread
rose, not to object to the Resolution, for he concurred entirely in the sum proposed. That house, he was sure, would, at all times, be ready to shew its attachment to his majesty's person and family. It was on that ground alone, and not in consequence of any circumstances that attended the death of the duke of
143
Lord Morpeth
highly approved of the grant, and trusted the house would always recollect that the princess was an Englishwoman, in addition to whatever claims she might have to their regard.
General Tarleton
approved of the grant, and affirmed that the duke of Brunswick had, on different occasions, done, much service to this country.—The Resolution was then agreed to.
[WESTMINSTER ELECTION—CASE OF PRIVILEGE.]
Sir Francis Burdett
had waited till he saw the house in a sufficient state of attendance, before he stated how he was circumstanced with respect to a transaction which in his view of it involved a breach of the privileges of that house. It would be necessary for him in order to explain the situation in which he stood, to state to the house a transaction which had taken place in one of the courts below. It was well known, that at the last election for the city of Westminster, the electors had nominated him as one of the candidates without his knowing any thing of the fact; and it was only towards the close of the election, that he was made acquainted with it. The electors claimed to be exempt from paying any part of the expence of that election, and the High Bailiff of Westminster had brought an action against him as one of the candidates, to recover a proportion of the expense of taking the election. Though there was no law to authorise such a demand, nor any custom to sanction the practise, though it was well known that he had not taken any share or portion in the conduct or
144
The Chancellor of the Exchequer
did not know how to address the house on this occasion; indeed, he felt he should apologize for offering himself, as there was he motion before them. He trusted, however, that the house would allow him to state what occurred to him in the view he at present had of the case; and from, every attention that he could give to the statement of the hon. baronet, it did not appear to him to be a case in which the house could interfere. If the hon. baronet was right in his conception of the law, respecting the misdirection of the learned judge, he had been very ill advised by his counsel, not to apply for a review of the whole case, by a motion for a new trial, or by a bill of exceptions. As he apprehended the case, the action had been brought against the hon. baronet for the use which he or his agents had made of certain erections for hustings, and the facts went to be decided upon to a jury. The direction of a judge might be right or might be wrong, but in either case that house was not the proper tribunal in which to have the proceedings of the court below-reviewed. The course of practise in the administration of law, was in such cases either to proceed by motion to the court out of which the record issued for a new trial, or by a bill of exceptions; and if either of these had been resorted to by the hon. baronet and not been successful, there would be no relief for him. It was not for him to say whether or not the direction of the learned judge was correct; but the jury had no doubt decided upon the evidence produced to them of the use made of the erections by the agents of the hon. baronet. That was his view of the subject, but it would remain for the hon. baronet to decide what course he should pursue to attain any object he may have in contemplation.
Mr. Curwen
vindicated the learned judge from the imputation of having obtained his present exalted station by any party services, and contended that his elevation was altogether owing to his transcendant talents; as an abler or more upright judge had never sat upon, the bench.
The Speaker
did not know that he was not bound, upon an application of this description to the house, to state what occurred to him upon the subject. Undoubtedly, as he understood the matter, the hon. member had offered himself to the house with perfect regularity, on a transaction which appeared to him to amount
145
[DR. DUIGENAN.]
Mr. Barham
rose to make his promised motion respecting the appointment of Dr. Duigenan as a Privy Counsellor of Ireland. He began by disclaiming all personal motives towards the learned gent, with whom he had never happened to have the smallest intercourse in his life, and whom he was disposed to regard with respect, in every other view but what belonged to the subject of which he was about to complain. This, however, he considered as of so much importance, that under similar circumstances he should not be deterred from a similar course, by any degree of respect which he either did or could entertain for any man whatever. The motion was of the greatest importance, fur if it were received, it could not fail in a considerable degree to counteract the ill effects which a late measure (the reduction of the Maynooth establishment) must infallibly produce by irritating the minds of the catholics in Ireland. The matter in question was small in itself, but the effect would be great. Prompt to a sense of injury, and still more of affront, the Irish character was equally sensible to marks of kindness.
146
147
148
149
150
Mr. C. Wynne
rose. He had expected to hear some reason offered for an appointment likely to be attended with so much mischief. The necessity of the presence of the learned doctor for the dispatch of ecclesiastical business in the privy council, which was alledged the other night, was a mere empty excuse, for the privy council of Ireland exercised no ecclesiastical jurisdiction whatsoever. He looked upon this appointment as precisely similar in motive and effect to the appointment of Mr. Giffard. When the Catholics were not encouraged to hope for all the rights to which he and many others thought them entitled, at least care ought to be taken to avoid what would have the appearance of studiously irritating and insulting them.
Sir A. Wellesley
declared, that the learned gent, so frequently alluded to on this occasion, had not himself made any application whatever for the appointment which it had been thought fit to extend to him. The appointment had been recommended on the ground that the learned gent. filled the office of Judge of the Prerogative Court, the holders of which, with the exception of the learned doctor's immediate predecessor, had sat in the privy council. There was a great deal of ecclesiastical business relating to the union and disunion of benefices before the privy council.
151
Sir J. Newport
said, he had little idea, when he directed the attention of the house to the state of the Irish Church, that he was by any means promoting such a curse to the country, as the promotion of the learned doctor. On what grounds did government seek to justify so extraordinary an appointment? Why, because the urgency of ecclesiastical business required the presence of a distinguished civilian. The house would be surprised to hear, that in England, where the ecclesiastical business was tenfold, the number of ecclesiastics who attended the privy council was much less than in Ireland! As a proof of this, he referred gentlemen to every proclamation issued from the Castle of Dublin, to which the names of two or three bishops were almost always attached. But why did he attempt, from any official reasons, to prove the little necessity there was for the advancement of a man to whom there was every moral and political objection? What! would it be wise or rational to promote a man who, all his life—he begged pardon, he believed only since his accession to a place under the Protestant Church,—had declared himself hostile to the great majority of the Irish people? He denied that it was usual to appoint the
152
Mr. Beresford
maintained that whoever charged the Roman Catholics with being-bad subjects, libelled and belied them: but to call in question any appointment for language made use of in parliament, however indiscreet, was at once to interfere with the prerogative of the crown, and the first privilege of parliament, freedom of speech.
Mr. Tierney
would have wished much to have heard some of his majesty's ministers undertake to defend the present appointment. All that he knew of the learned doctor who was the object of it, was, that he understood him to be a man whose life had been occupied in religious contentions; and that all the sentiments which he bad delivered in that house, were given in such a manner, and carried to so extravagant a length, that he believed there was not a single member in the house who would venture to say that he concurred with him. The learned doctor had long held the office which he now held, and it was never before thought necessary to raise him to the rank of privy counsellor. What could be the motive, then, of such an appointment at the present time; or how could his majesty's ministers suppose, that in recommending such an appointment, they were cherishing that unity and harmony which it appeared to be his majesty's earnest desire to cultivate? He wished to hear some of his majesty's ministers state, for what merits the learned doctor had been recommended. The sort of defence of the appointment which the right hon. secretary for Ireland (sir A. Wellesley) had made, was any thing but complimentary to the learned doctor. He had stated, that his power of doing mischief would be very limited, and that he would only be called upon for his advice on ecclesiastical questions. But what security was there for the house and the country, that the learned doctor would abstain from any of the duties of a privy counsellor? As soon as he was appointed, he might think it his duty to offer his
153
Sir Robert Williams,
said that whatever might be his opinion on the general subject of what was called Catholic emancipation, he could by no means approve of the system which seemed now to be adopted, of heaping insult upon insult on the Catholics of Ireland. Upon the general question which was to come on, he might probably be of the same opinion which his constituents had expressed; but he was sure his constituents never could approve of such a wanton insult as this appeared to be to the Catholics of Ireland.
Colonel Montague Mathew
thought it an unpardonable insult to Ireland, and every one connected with Ireland, to the house of commons, and to the empire at large, that his majesty's ministers would not condescend to offer any explanation on this scandalous appointment, but sat silent relying on their majority.
154
Lord H. Petty
expressed his surprise, that his majesty's ministers should have thought this a proper time for promoting a man who was remarkable for nothing so much as his rooted hostility to a considerable proportion of the population of this empire. When the gentlemen on the other side of the house did not venture to say a word in favour of the man who was the object of their choice, it appeared to him that their silence, however prudent, must yet be considered as a guilty silence. If the appointment was agreeable to their opinion, they ought to defend it; and if it was not agreeable to their opinion, they should not have made it. Their silence might be in some respects pardoned, for there might be a factitious unanimity in silence; whereas, in speaking, some differences might have arisen.
Mr. Curwen
said, if the right hon. gent. (Mr. Canning) ever had any portion of the respect of the house or the public, he must or ought to have forfeited it by his present conduct. When the world saw that house debating in the manner they had done this night, it was impossible not to think that if the people had energy, the ministers had none. There was a secret influence in the cabinet of this country, which Mr. Pitt would have spurned at, and which any man who had been, as the right hon. gent, pretended to be, in his confidence, and emulated his conduct, must equally have despised.
Mr. W. Smith
assured the hon gentlemen on the opposite side of the house, that a great majority of those who were in the habit of regularly voting with ministers did not scruple to censure the measure of making doctor Duigenan a privy counsellor in the severest terms. Not only had ministers great power over themselves, but they seemed also to possess complete influence over those of their own party, in preventing them from saying a single word in defence of this most extraordinary proceeding. As for what had fallen from the right hon. secretary for Ireland, the reasons which he had given for this proceeding were not only wholly unsatisfactory, but he did not believe them to be the true reasons. But though he had no hope of extracting any explanation or defence of the act "from his majesty's confidential ministers, he assured them that if by persisting in their silence, they believed they would persuade the country, that this silence arose from any other cause than a total inability to vin-
155
Mr. Windham,
seing that the right hon. gentlemen sat still completely spell-bound, professed to entertain very little hope of rousing them from the state of silence and stupor into which they had fallen. The feelings which this silence excited, were in the first instance those of indignation; but these had already subsided into compassion, and he was afraid that they would terminate in ridicule and laughter. Never, since the Speaker sat in the chair of the house, was there an example of such conduct in the official servants of the crown. If, however, they were insensible to what they owed, both to their public duty, and to their private characters, he implored them to have pity on those from whom on this evening they expected support, and to assign some reasons for the vote which they expected them to give. It must be implicit confidence indeed, which was given, when those who looked for it, would not even deign to ask it. What must be the religion, where a monkey is the god? Would nothing, he asked, operate upon the right hon. gent, opposite (Mr. Canning) who was such an advocate for boldness and openness of proceeding? or was the whole burthen of debate on that side of the house to be left to the gallant general (sir A. Wellesley) and the hon. gent, under the gallery (Mr. Beresford)? The former had stepped forward with much zeal and intrepidity; and in such a task, courage was certainly wanting, for never before, he firmly believed, had that gallant officer volunteered on such a forlorn hope. The amount of his defence was, that the appointment was not of material importance, and, as far as related to doctor Duigenan personally, no danger was to be apprehended from it, because he was to be tethered down in the council, and only to be let out on ecclesiastical questions. The other hon. gent, chose a different line of argument; he gave up both the cause and the doctor; contending that the proposer of the motion should be nonsuited, because it was not laid on proper grounds. He had not, however, condescended, to state any grounds for the vote of those who were expected to oppose it. The hungry sheep looked up, but they were not fed; they were not gratified with the boon of so much as a single argument. In opposition to the allegation of the gallant officer, Mr. Windham contended, that the
156
tolero,
Mr. Whitbread
thought it impossible to add to the arguments, or the provocation, which had been used to stimulate ministers to speak upon the present question. He could only now ask these right hon. gentlemen, in the language which had been put to a noble lord on another occasion; ' Will you yet sit still in dumb despair?' He asked whether they were like a jury, agreed among themselves, and if they were, to speak by their foreman. They seemed to be completely spell-bound, as had just been stated by his right hon. friend; but he perceived from their countenances that they were yet alive. He could easily read in the countenance of a right hon. gent. (Mr. Canning), who was fond of sometimes reading in his, that that right hon. gent, was fully as impatient of his silence as was the house, and that if he would speak his sentiments, it would be in reprobation of the appointment of doctor Duigenan to a seat in the privy council. It was easy to perceive that there was no sympathy, no union in the cabinet, and that ministers were united only for the purpose of creating disunion. He observed that many gentlemen who were very regular in their attendance were absent from the house this evening, and among these several zealous supporters of ministers; but of those who were present, he demanded if there was a single man who would rise up and approve of the appointment of doctor Duigenan to the office of privy counsellor. Reverting to the
157
Mr. Lockhart
rose, amidst a loud cry of! 'question! question!' He said, from the turn the debate had taken on the other side of the house he should wish for some little information. He was anxious to know how far they meant to carry their intolerance? Hitherto they had been debating how far the disabilities of the Catholics were to be taken off. The house was now discussing how far a learned gentleman, who had expressed an ardent opinion in favour of the Protestant religion, was unfit for a situation of trust and honour. Instead of removing the Catholic disabilities, the gentlemen opposite called upon the house to degrade a man for using strong language in favour of his religion If this was their religious toleration, he was afraid it might degenerate into religious apathy and indifference.
Mr. Barham
said, that he was aware that a member who brought forward a specific motion, was, by the rules of the house, entitled to reply, but as nothing in the shape of argument had been urged on the other side, he had his doubts whether he should avail himself of the courtesy granted upon such occasions. The hon. member then briefly adverted to some observations which fell from the other side; after which the house divided:
HOUSE OF LORDS.
Thursday, May 12, 1808.
158
[DUCHESS OF BRUNSWICK.]
The order of the day being read for taking into consideration his majesty's Message,
Lord Hawkesbury
observed, that he could not think it necessary to detain the house with more than a few words, in order to induce them cheerfully to concur in the recommendation which he had the honour of delivering from his majesty. When their lordships recollected the military talents and general character of the duke of Brunswick; when they recollected the share he bore in a contest, which was not more the contest of Prussia than of England; when they recollected his hard fate, his melancholy fall, and the indignity offered even to his remains by the ruler of France, all of which must be still green in their lordships recollections; when they reflected how all those sufferings of that illustrious person must have preyed on the feelings of his illustrious consort, in whose behalf this recommendation came from his majesty, for the comfort, and dignity of her age and rank; when they reflected on her near relation to his majesty; they would surely do with alacrity, what that house was ever ready to do—give eager proof of their attachment and affection to their sovereign, in furthering whatever object they knew he had at heart. His lordship concluded with moving an address to his majesty, assuring his majesty that that house would cheerfully concur in promoting the purpose of his royal communication.
Lord Auckland
spoke highly in praise of the virtues of the illustrious duchess, and was sure that every loyal subject would readily agree to the address.
The Earl of Lauderdale
rose, not to oppose the address, but to narrow the grounds on which alone it ought to be proposed. The house had nothing now to do with the military talents and career of the duke of Brunswick, or with the contest in which he had last been engaged. All the house should consider was, that the illustrious person for whom such an establishment was proposed was very nearly connected with his majesty; for if, in the present state of the continent, every unfortunate prince or princess were to seek a retreat and an establishment in this country, merely on the score of their misfortunes, it was not unlikely that we might have many candidates for the bounty of the British nation. If he was not wrongly informed, this illustrious person had already a pension on the Irish establishment, which, with what was now proposed, which he understood to be
159
l
l
[OFFICES IN REVERSION BILL.]
On the motion that the bill for suspending the making of such grants be read a third time,
The Earl of Lauderdale
rose, and repeated his objections to the bill. It was wholly different in principle from the bill that had been introduced in the commencement of the session, and was by no means such as the committee of finance had in contemplation, or as the country was led to expect. If that was all the committee of finance thought of doing, then, indeed, the people would be disappointed. He fondly hoped to see the enquiries penetrate into the great departments of government, the navy, the army, the ordnance, where great and essential savings might be made: but if their object was only to abolish some sinecure places, which he rather thought should be retained for the reward of public services, then, instead of promoting economy, it might be found that they would have increased expence. But nothing more displeased him in the bill, than seeing it was the result of a petty compromise between ministers, who wished to secure their places, and that party by whom this bill had hitherto been opposed, and who possessed a secret influence which was known to be able to make or unmake ministers.
Lord Harrowby
perfectly concurred with the noble lord who spoke last, as to the propriety of retaining some fund from which his majesty might be enabled to reward services, where the persons who had rendered those services, had not been born to hereditary wealth. Such a fund, he thought, sinecure places might contribute to supply. He differed widely, however, from that noble lord as to his insinuations of a compromise; did not the very nature of the constitution depend on compromise? otherwise, could public bu-
160
Lord Holland
was surprised to see the house deserted by those who had prognosticated such alarming mischief's from the bill. This to him was a new proof that the passing of the present bill was a matter of compromise; not of that sort of compromise of which the noble lord opposite had just spoken, but a compromise that was to keep ministers in their places, while they removed the objections of that party upon whom their power was known to depend.
Lord Hawkesbury
and the Lord Chancellor disclaimed the doctrine that the bill was subversive of the constitution, inimical to the prerogative, or repugnant to the dignity of that house. If it had any such tendency, it never should have had their countenance and support.
The Earl of Darnley
did not think the bill sufficient, but he still should support it, and consider it as a pledge of what the house was further disposed to do, and as a pledge which he trusted they would redeem.—The bill was then read a third time and passed.
HOUSE OF COMMONS.
Thursday, May 12, 1808.
[SUGAR DISTILLATION.]
Mr. Yorke
presented a Petition from the land-owners, corn masters, and maltsters, of the county of Cambridge, against the proposed measure of exclusive Distillation from Sugar. He hoped that the chairman and members of the West India committee, who had recommended that measure, would not bring forward the motion on Monday, but that they would give time for the satisfactory examination of the voluminous documents that accompanied the report. The importance of the measure required mature deliberation, and he was sure the committee could not wish to hurry it through the house.
Lord Binning
had certainly no wish for improper haste, but no delay could take place consistently with any prospect of carrying the measure into effect this year.
161
HOUSE OF COMMONS.
Thursday, May 12, 1808.
[MR. PALMER'S CLAIM.]
Major Palmer
The Chancellor of the Exchequer
gave his consent to the motion, on the ground, that a Committee would afford the most satisfactory mode, according to the opinion of the honourable mover, for discussing the merits of the case: he begged, however, to be understood as by no means, from his acquiescence in this step, giving his concurrence to the measure, or assenting, in any degree, to the principle of opening anew an arrangement long closed.—The house having gone into a Committee,
Major Palmer
rose and spoke as follows: —Sir; Before I state the grounds of the motion I mean to submit to the consideration of the house, I beg leave to say a few-words in explanation of the reason which has induced me to come forward on this occasion. I trust I shall stand acquitted of any impropriety in being the advocate of what may be considered, in some degree, my own cause. I am fully aware of the difficulty and delicacy of my situation, and how much I stand in need of the patience and kind consideration of those whom I have the honour to address, to enable me to execute what I have felt my duty to undertake. The difficulty I speak of consists solely in that apprehension which I conceive must be natural to any one, like myself, unaccustomed to address this house, and which I think may have occurred even to those whose abilities justified a confidence in themselves, which I only derive from a conviction that, in the present instance, no talents on my part can be requisite.—I beg to assure the house, that whatever my own feelings maybe, I have not a wish to excite an interest with them beyond that of honouring me with their attention, and doing that impartial justice in this case to which, if their own, they might conceive themselves entitled; and that I have no motive in personally bringing it forward, but to conduct any discussion that may be necessary on the part of the Petitioner in such a manner, as to shew how much he wishes to avoid the slightest personal disrespect to those with whom it may have been his misfortune to have differed on this subject, and those of whose liberality in leaving it to the unbiassed decision of the only court to
162
£.
£.
s.
£.
£.
Mr. Long
rose and said:—I cannot avoid acknowledging, that I feel very great astonishment at the house being now called upon to express their sentiments upon an arrangement which they had specifically decided upon several years before, and which I have always considered to be a transaction perfectly satisfactory to the public mind. A Committee was appointed in 1797, upon whose Report parliament
163
(a)
(a) Letters from
delivered to the Postmaster General by
l
164
After the perusal of letters like these, I cannot forbear mentioning my surprize, that it is possible for the committee to have sent in such a Report as that which I now hold in my hand—a Report recommending Mr. Palmer's regard to economy! when the fact established by the letter respecting Wilson proves so gross a want of it upon Mr. Palmer's part. The charge of creating unnecessary confusion in the Post Office I think is amply substantiated by certain arrangements recommended with respect to the inferior persons in the Comptroller General's Office. It was said in these letters that one of the persons so recommended, instead of doing his duty would employ his time in quarrelling with his superiors. The late delivery of letters is also mentioned in the letters to be a probable consequence of some of the arrangements recommended. After all this, it
manner, after all he has done for the office, the world will cry shame on it; that to get down the price for carrying the Mail, &c.—that they understood they should always have 3
d.
l
165
would have been highly improper had the Treasury permitted Mr. P. to retain his situation any longer; and upon such premises
to give his opinion on a surveyor for Scotland, without saying a syllable to me, who am just returned thence? But I know the gentleman pretty well, and his shallow views.
Isle of Wight, May 22d, 1789—DEAR Bonnor,—I should rather imagine, by your letter, that the deed could not be done effectually, without betraying that some pains on our parts were taken to effect it; unless therefore a thorough and complete dust could be kicked up, and a glorious confusion, better forbid the account being taken at all, and assume a merit in preventing mischief. You will however determine as you see fit, that which may be best. The horse fell with me about two miles this side Southampton; he was so stunned that he rolled on my leg, and lay on it so that I feared it was broke, but thank God it is whole, though much bruised; take care therefore, and be cautious of riding your mare again, after the hints she has given you. Poor Toby had given me two or three gentle warnings, which I was fool enough to neglect. Our best compliments to the ladies; Mrs. Palmer is very indifferent; the girls well.—Ever your's truly, J. Palmer.—All unite in love to Tom and Charles.
Wilderness, September 30th, 1790.— DEAR BONNOR;—You have managed vastly well.—If, like Trappolin, I was made king for a day, I should say like him, I believe, Take me these two coxcombly lords to —. The soreness of the business is —Lord W. just after my last return from Scotland, went into a curious investigation, and a sort of reform of that Office without the least communication whatever with me, and in the coarsest manner to Oliphant; made some confusion, and did nothing. The business will now be really and effectually done, and without advising with his Lordship, and I will defy them to undo it. I sent to them for the papers and reports, or copies of them, by Hasker. They sent word being official papers they could not part with them, but would send me copies; which they have not done. Every thing being nearly finished, the only way I could comply with their orders, if they should think proper to repeat them, would be to send to Freeling, that, as by my directions he had carried into execution many regulations for the improve
166
I must assert and argue that Mr. P. is entitled neither to the 1,500
l
ment of the correspondence, &c. which had already been productive of good effects, it was the Postmaster General's pleasure that he should, as far as he possibly could, put it back in the same irregular and confused state he found it:—But they are not such miserable fools to press it.—They will be entering some absurd resolutions, that the Comptroller General having done so and so, that in future no regulations shall take place, without first having their sanction.—I really have always felt, that every material alteration, &c. should have their sanction; but that it is impossible with lord W. to do this, and unless the constitution of the office was altered, it must be so if they insist on it.—I certainly could expose them most damnably; but 3 or 4,000 a year must not be trifled with; though if it was not for the children, I should like to lead them, on to a downright quarrel, and a thorough exposure of them. If there were men of sense at the head of the department, I could not have a dispute with them.—I have sent your letter to Lott, which is vastly well; I have told him to inform the proprietors where the fault lay. You see, that I ought not to hazard the most distant possibility of these worthy peers saying to me, You do not pay the contractors their money. I hope a few days will complete all your accounts and work up the rubbish, that you and Mrs. Bonnor may have a quiet dip in the sea, and be set up for the winter. I think of passing through town in my way to Bath, about the 10th or 12th of next month; and if you think it necessary, will meet Sir Benjamin and the partnership. I should wish my accounts to be given to Maskelyn soon as Gosnell can, to look over against I come up. Soon as you return from the sea, I shall want to talk to you about a new and general Post Office Act, which I have occasionally mentioned to you, and other matters. Will you see Maskelyn, and let all the guards and incident bills be now settled; for that insidious Lord W. though be has himself occasioned the delay, exclaims about the poor people. Day, and all together, would soon do it; the sooner too we can send in the proposed Officers, and their arrears, &c. the better. Your's ever, J. PALMER.—Hope to reach Hastings to-morrow.—It is certainly right
167
Office with official services. I perfectly recollect, that this was not only the impression upon my own mind, but also upon
to take care of every paper that passes betwixt the Postmaster General and me.
Hastings, October 3d, 1790.—DEAR BONNOR; The worthy Peers, you see by their last letter, have left me no alternative, but we must go to the Treasury: 'Tis unpleasant, bitch'd as I have been there, but it must be done. My last letter proves every disposition on my part to go on well, and the troubling Mr. Pitt rests with them. As I shall write them a very full and decided answer, that we may close entirely on the business, it is necessary for me to have many papers, and Lloyd to copy some. All the papers that were laid before the Commissioners—my letters to Lord Walsingham, and his that occasioned them—Allen's narrative, tis in the bureau, I believe; Day and Lloyd can find them, I think—and every paper you can think of that may be of use to refer to. Do you likewise look out Lord W.'s numerous correspondence, his minutes, &c. and recollect some instances of his throwing the correspondence into confusion, but for my stopping his order given. You recollect the particular circumstances I allude to. Pack Lloyd down in the coach with the materials. Will you send a porter to Mr. Jackson, Old Palace Yard, for a small turtle he has given Mr. Harris, and let Lloyd bring it with him. Though the conduct of the Lords is the very thing I ought to wish, and must end well, yet it revives old quarrels and feelings, and fevers me in spite of myself. D— them, I never can be absent to get a little bathing or quiet, but this is the case. I think they will look small.—You may trust Sir B. in confidence, but beg him to mention nothing of it. I mean you to shew him the papers that have past. I wish you would call on Boydell, congratulate him on being Mayor, and say all civil things from me to him of his spirit, encouragement of genius, &c. for we may want him, and Braithwaite you know is his intimate; but of this we'll talk further when we meet. In a hurry, Your's ever, J. PALMER. —Send me a copy too of their last minute.
Brighton, October 26th, 1790. DEAR BONNOR; Will you see the principal Clerks, and say, as from yourself, that in the present situation of matters, you think the Postmaster General will sign their warrant directly; by way of shewing how ready
168
that of my glorious and lamented friend Mr. Pitt (with whose confidence upon this very subject I was frequently and particularly
they are to take my recommendation, if I will only submit it to them. You had better therefore simply send the Officers names, and the sums allotted to each.— The inclosed papers need not go, unless they chuse to canvass the matter, which I don't think they will do. Nobody, therefore, should go down, but do you send it them, and say any thing you please yourself. I thought it better, as art official letter, to date it from the Post-Office. Excuse to Stow my not answering a letter I had from him; how much I am pleased with his exertions, and that I shall see him soon.—I think Johnson, or any other expectant friends, should have their minds made easy, and be told how safe every thing is, and their officers being the better settled for this very brulée.—I have the pleasure to tell you I have had a long conversation with Lord C. this morning, and a gentle and friendly jobation for basting the peers. He will see Mr. Pitt himself, and enter fully into the business; and I hope and believe we shall now have it clearly and definitely settled; but this must not be mentioned, nor his name.— Tell Bartlett to look over all the letters betwixt me and lord Walsingham, and he will find some copies from me, though they can be scarce made out, which shew that I foretold it must come to this issue if he persisted in his conduct; and used every method myself to prevent it.—Will you send likewise for the copy of what they last sent to the Treasury, which they mean as a sort of reply or observation on my last letter; because I should have it to refute to Lord C. if necessary. I go with him, Thursday, to Chisselhurst. He wants to see the copy of the actual Treasury Warrant for my appointment, and the Postmaster General's appointment of me in consequence of it. Bartlett will find them all in the right-hand drawer of my desk; send therefore all of them by return of post. He will look over all the acts, and every part of it, to see if he cannot work out a little law to go on ere he sees Mr. Pitt—I keep the three minutes you have sent to show lord C. As to their query about 2 oz. franks, I suppose some person's frank under 2 oz. has been charged by mistake, and this is their way of enquiry, and doing business. They are certainly charged according to the acts,
169
honoured) that Mr. Palmer accepted the 3000
l
and there cannot be a more regular officer than Coltson: speak to him upon it. As to the good woman at Bagshot, she seems a friend of mine, and to have given the Peer a dressing for interfering in her department. But why should we send a Surveyor when the Peer has made the enquiry and examination, and say what should be done. He is the Surveyor, and should have finished his business; for Freeling cannot go down and report against the Postmaster General.—Freeling may as well go down though, and follow his directions; and I hope the old woman may be spunk, and refuse to apologize, and bid them kiss her b. for the office is not worth holding; and if the Surveyors visit them on this stuff, they will have nothing else to do. Freeling should go to the Secretary, and look at Lord Chesterfield's minute, as I cannot return this. I think, by your account, the discipline of the Inland Office goes down, which will be no bad thing. It is not impossible but they may get into a tolerable confusion there, as the dispute is known amongst them. I wish, if you can send it by return of post, to have my former letter to Lord Walsingham, to shew Lord C.— I think Johnson might take huff at some of the officers not observing his directions, and keep out of the Inland Office; and Stow and Austin, quietly if they could, and without apparent design; let Brown and Ruddick take their situations. Brown would be disregarded, and Ruddick would dispute with the officers, instead of enforcing obedience. We should by degrees get an hour or two later in the delivery; by degrees, in a week or two: I think it might be
170
Major Palmer:—Sir; The right lion, gent, having stated every objection to this motion that I am aware of, with the permission of the house, I will now reply.— It is contended in the first place, that this is an old question already decided, and for that reason should not again be brought forward; particularly after the decease of Mr. Pitt, who was a party in, the transaction. It is of this, sir, Mr. Palmer complains, that Mr. Pitt being a party should also have been the judge; and with respect to the renewal of this question, I trust I shall explain to the satisfaction of the house, that the fault does not rest with Mr. Palmer.—A Committee of this house was appointed in the year 1797 to inquire into the nature of Mr. Palmer's Agreement with government, and
quietly and cautiously managed, if even little or no notice was taken of their not coming early, or absence. The coaches must be kept to their duty, as they have not interfered with them. Ever, Dear B. Your's most truly, J. Palmer.—You will of course mind your cue with the Peers, and be as well in their grace as you can. I return with lord Camden to Chisselhurst, Thursday; and shall be in town Friday or Saturday, I think; but I wish it not to be known.—I forgot to say, send a copy of the Postmaster General's patent too, if you can get it. They will let one of our officers copy it at the Treasury, if you will send to Mr. Mitford, though I think you will find one amongst the old papers.
Bath, November 23d, 1790.—Dear B. —Lord Camden is returned to town, or Owen's letter would be excellent; a right sketch. I shall keep it for him, as I shall state in my answer the inutility of the Secretary or Postmaster General's Clerks places: the latter is not of long standing; was a mere job at first. Jackson once gave me the history of it. I wish you could get him to dine with you, and the subject might easily be introduced. Have you yet sent my friend Abbot the correspondence, as Mr. Pitt is willing to confirm any powers to me the act of parl will allow; I really think they might, in some shape or other, be made out sufficiently strong, and independent of the noble Peers. Did Bartlett mention to you they had been telling their story to the king? Pretty masters! so they complain to Domine of the great boy. Your most truly, J. PALMER.
171
to report their opinion thereon. This Committee were afterwards instructed to inquire into the causes of Mr. Palmer's Suspension, and to report their opinion on that, as well as his Agreement; but before the Evidence was closed, the right hon. gent, the chairman, (Mr. W. Dundas), who held a considerable office under government at the time, without the slightest communication with the Committee, or the least previous notice in the house, moved a third order, rescinding the two former ones, and instructing the Committee not to report their opinion upon the Evidence, but the Evidence alone. The consequence was what may easily be imagined; that at the time the subject was discussed in the house, this mass of Papers had scarcely been examined by an individual member, and those who from their political situation were led to oppose the measure, merely read partial extracts from this Evidence, and Mr. Palmer's private letters; which, I am ready to admit, unexplained, were sufficient to prejudice him in the opinion of many as to his conduct in the office.—Sir: I do firmly believe, that had that Committee been allowed to make a Report on the Evidence, as originally instructed, Mr. Palmer would have received then, the justice he hopes for now, and been spared the anxiety, fatigue, and expence of the many years which have since elapsed.—Theright hon. gent, has also stated, that Mr. Palmer consented to the settlement of the present allowance he receives. Admitting this to be fact, I cannot think it an excuse for the breach of an Agreement to have compelled an individual to submit to an injustice he was unable to resist; but, sir, in noway whatever did Mr. Palmer consent to this settlement; on the contrary, he invariably declared, "That though Mr. Pitt, to suit his political convenience, might dispense with his services, he could not dispense with the engagement he had entered into." I can produce a letter of Mr. Palmer's in proof of this, but have no wish to read it to the house, as it might tend to revive feelings I am anxious to suppress. I shall, therefore, merely state, that it is an answer to the present earl Camden, who was-kind enough to mediate on the occasion. Upon Mr. Pitt's decision being made known, Mr. Palmer in an interview with lord Camden expressed in the strongest terms his sense of the injustice which had been done him, and his determination to procure redress. Lord Camden shortly
172
after wrote to Mr. Palmer at Bath, again recommending forbearance, and Mr. Palmer in his answer repeated his former sentiments, declaring that it should be only with life that he would relinquish his exertions to obtain justice
*
l
*
"Bath, Aug. 6. 179.3.—My dear Lord; I have the honour of your letter, and am truly vexed that I should differ in opinion from your lordship, whom I so highly esteem, or that I am driven to pursue a conduct not perfectly consonant to your wishes. Nothing but the respect I bore to your lordship and lord Camden, to your judgment and Mr. Pitt's situation, induced me to act in the manner I have done. Two sessions of parliament have passed over, I have been suffered to sink quietly with the public, and turned out of my office with not half my agreement. The apprehensions of my friends, too, being excited that I might be deprived of every thing, perhaps, think me fortunate in the allowance granted me. I find it therefore every way necessary that this should be explained to the public, and when it is, I do not believe a man in this country so far from thinking me ungrateful, but will be satisfied I have been most infamously treated."
173
Treasury have produced the slightest proof, or had they believed that Mr. Palmer had ever been satisfied with the settlement they had made, would they not at once have expressed their surprise at his application, and have given him a direct and positive refusal, instead of keeping him so long in a state of suspense, and not even at last venturing a hint at consent on his part, or making a single answer to all the facts and arguments he had urged for the fulfilment of his agreement.—Disappointed in his first attempt, Mr. Palmer on the present occasion presented a Petition to his majesty, stating the peculiar hardship of his case, that in an agreement with the Government which on their part had been broken, he was precluded an appeal to the laws of his country. On the grounds of this Petition, the late administration consented that a similar one should be presented to this house, and a Committee appointed to examine the former Evidence and report their Observations upon it. I have understood from Mr. Palmer, that the noble lord, the late Chancellor of the Exchequer, (lord H. Petty) was so good as to suggest the propriety of this Committee being a select one, and to point out the description of members of which it should be composed, in order to obtain the object of their appointment; viz. a fair and impartial Report upon this Evidence. I have also understood from an hon. gent, the chairman of that Committee, that the present Chancellor of the Exchequer fully consented to this appointment; and I therefore trust, that that right hon. gent, at least will not object to the question, on the ground of its having been before settled.—With respect to this Report, I am afraid that it may almost appear an impertinence on my part, the attempting to defend it; but I trust that the Committee who drew it up will make allowance for my situation, and at any rate acquit me of the least want of respect towards them, or gratitude for the trouble they have taken on Mr. Palmer's account. These Observations in fact speak for themselves; nor should I deem it necessary to trouble the house with a discussion of them; but that I am anxious to explain some parts of this Evidence, which I hope I shall be enabled to do to the satisfaction of hon. gentlemen, who may require an explanation upon those points, to which the Committee, on their liberal though strictly just view of the subject, may not have paid that minute attention which I
174
have done.—The first observation of this Report states as follows: "That the parts of Mr. Palmer's Petition, which alledge his invention and execution of a most useful Plan for the reform and improvement of the Posts of this country, and which he undertook at his own risk and expence, have been substantiated; and also, that it appears that Mr. Palmer met with very great difficulties in the progress of his Plan, in consequence of a determined and continued opposition from the Post Office, the most experienced officers in that department having declared the Plan, previous to its execution, to be impracticable, and injurious to Commerce and the Revenue." —With respect to this observation, I shall only say, that strongly as it is expressed, no one without reading the Evidence, can form an idea of the extent of the opposition Mr. Palmer met with, and every one who does read it must be convinced, that had Mr. Palmer failed in this Plan, undertaken at his own risk, and declared impracticable, no other person would have attempted it. —The Committee next observe "That the parts of Mr. Palmer's Petition, which alledge an Agreement made with him by the right hon. William Pitt, Chancellor of his majesty's Exchequer, in 1784 (and afterwards modified in 1785), by which Mr. Palmer was to have an appointment in the Post Office for life, with a salary annexed of 1,500
l
l
s.
l
b
(
b
Extract from
Evidence,
175
the Correspondence betwixt the present earl Camden and himself, and also Mr. Palmer's Letters to Mr. Pitt, fully proving the modification of these terms (
c
revenue of the Post Office, beyond the present net profits, and not to have one shilling if I did not succeed in my Plan; this happened in the spring 1784. The answer brought to me by Dr. Pretyman, (private secretary to Mr. Pitt,) was, that the terms were thought fair, and would be fully complied with, provided the Plan succeeded.—Have you ever asked for a copy of the Papers delivered in to Dr. Pretyman? No, I did not; nor kept one myself. I believe it will not be denied on the part of administration, that such a Paper was delivered to Dr. Pretyman, and such an Answer was returned by him.
(
c
Copy of
Letter to the Right Hon.
May
th
l
l
s.
d.
176
the Evidence of Mr. Pitt himself, (
d
for that road, Mr. Todd chusing to do this without giving me the least information of his intentions. By this improvement at last, supposing it even to be kept up to, government is at a much higher expence for conveying the mail than even before, instead of saving almost the whole of it. The inhabitants will have only four hours betwixt the arrival and departure of their mail, instead of twelve, as they would have by mine, and it remains unguarded: this he has done without any sort of communication with my agent on the business, though he sees him almost every day, and I believe has fully understood from government, some time past, that the new plan was to be extended over the whole kingdom. Since my absence from town, he likewise has thought proper to suffer an entire alteration in the mode of delivering the letters, so that those by the new plan, instead of being delivered early in a morning, are not delivered till almost too late in the afternoon to send an answer. In this the comptroller is as much or more blameable than himself. In short, they wilt remain firmly agreed together, to take each their turn to do the Plan all possible mischief. I am sure, sir, if you could be aware how complex a business it is, and how difficult to unravel what (though simple in itself) they-have made so perplexed, to teach the postmasters the new regulations, which will enable them to do their duty in a plainer manner and less liable to mistakes, to settle the different parts as I proceed, so as to fit in with the general plan, and suffer no present mischief involved as you are in such various and greater concerns, you would yet spare a few minutes, I am sure you would, to put a stop to the rascality of that office, and to leave my mind free to pursue my Plan, without having it taken up with guarding against and curing their shameful practices. I want no sort of assistance from them; all I desire is, that they may not be suffered to do injury.—The state of the interior management of the Post Office business is full as bad or rather worse than I stated in the Memorial I had the honour to submit to the Treasury; the mistakes are innumerable, and the daily loss of the revenue very great, nor can it be otherwise on the present system; the remedy for it
177
"franking by way of tax, were made, from the suggestions contained in Mr. Palmer's Plan; and that the before-men-
is even more plain and simple than that for the exterior department; and if you will permit me, I will regulate it in less than a fortnight, to your's and the public's satisfaction, even at a less expence to government than the present mode, and with much more ease to the different officers; indeed the plan cannot be further extended, till I am suffered to establish regulations within the office to fit the new ones without, as the new and old plan now act against each other. Having obtruded thus far on you, sir, with my complaints, I must beg leave to trespass a little further, and have done. It. is nearly approaching to three years since I first submitted my plan to your judgment, that you kindly encouraged it, and I attended your commands in town. I have sent a statement of my journies, attendances, &c. to my good friend lord Camden, for your inspection, by which you will see that, exclusive of my expences, almost the whole of my time and attention from October 1782 to the present moment, has been employed in this business; and I submit to your justice, whether the expence actually incurred, prior to the first trial of my Plan, the 2d August last, should not now be paid, and my appointment made out.—Your obliging message by Mr. Pratt, before the trial, that if the Plan did not succeed, I should be fully paid for my expence and trouble, if you recollect, sir, I disclaimed, and chose to sit down in that case with my disappointment and loss, and let my reward rest only on my success.—My time and attention, prior to the trial, I do not recount; though, if I discovered any ingenuity, activity, or perseverance through it, my family might have been benefited by their exertion to other objects.—The success of the Plan, sir, I believe, has exceded both your's and the public's expectation. I am sure it has my own in some points, though not, in others, but it has not fallen short in one. A circumstance, I believe, almost as new to administration, in the various plans that are submitted to them as a popular tax, which the Post Tax really is, where the accommodation has been given with it.—It incurred no new expence or inconvenience in the old establishment, even in the trial, but what was occasioned by the opposition from the General Office.—It conveys the Mails in half
178
tioned sum of 1,500
l
the time they used to be, and guarded under regulations that will, in a great measure, enforce themselves; and where it has been carried into execution, has immediately occasioned an increase of revenue to the Post Office.—It having been proved, that it is scarce possible for greater neglect or abuses to prevail than in the conduct of the old Post; that, in consequence of it, a great share of the correspondence was carried on by coaches, to the detriment of the Post revenue; that the new tax, coupled with the old plan, would have increased such defalcation, which the statement given into the treasury, comparing the great improvement of the revenue from the tax upon the new, opposed to the old establishment, have been very fully proved.—It was promised in the plan, to give the improved expedition and security to the great roads from London, and some of the cross roads, for the payment of 3
d,
179
90,000
l
whole kingdom, as my per-centage on the increased revenue from the tax, without the accommodation, will not pay the very great expences I am obliged to incur in the establishing it. I have only to thank you, sir, for the very warm and steady support I have received from you in this business, without which, indeed, it could not have succeeded; and to hope, in addition to the rest of your favours, you will excuse this long letter. I have the honour to be, &c.
J. PALMER.
Copy of a Letter from
to the Right
annexed to
Letter, sent to the Commissioners of Enquiry, May
l
180
consisting in the addition of 90,000
l
l
a guinea less. My per-centage therefore, on every other object of reform or improvement mentioned in my letter, I understand from Mr. Pitt will be fully secured to me. I do not know a fairer way of rating this, than by taking an average net yearly profit on the ten years prior to the tax being laid, then see what addition the year's tax has made, suppose 80,000
l
l
l
181
at that time, making together an aggregate of 240,000
l.,
that my profits should be such as to set me above temptation, and enable me to lay by a good fortune for my family. I trust therefore to his generosity, that if they should be deprived of me ere I have effected it, he will recommend a proper provision for them, as a reward for any good I may have been an instrument of his giving to the country.
Copy of a Letter from the Hon.
to
l
182
"of 150,000
l
to stay the beginning of next week. I am sincerely yours,
J. J. PRATT.
Copy of a Letter from
to the Rt. Hon.
in
J. PALMER.
Copy of
Letter to Rt. Hon.
l
s.
183
2½ per cent, for his life from the commencement of his Plan, if it succeeded; but not a shilling in the event of failure."
only, and without any emolument whatever. This proposal not being agreeable to their lordships, and as they did not approve of the mode of payment partly by a salary of 1,500
l
l
l
l
s.
184
This low per-centage was to include every object from which the improved Revenue might arise; and, indeed, it was a leading
lance to be paid me every year on settling the accounts in the April quarter. I take the liberty, sir, likewise to propose for your consideration, whether the juster as well as simpler mode of regulating the accounts, and fixing the sum from which my per-centage is to commence, will not be by first stating the gross produce of the British and Foreign postage, and then deducting from it the Postmaster's salaries, payment for conveyance of the Mails either by horse or carriage, for guards, and for dead and missent letters, and the per-centage to commence on the nett Revenue after these deductions, as they are the only charges under my controul; and I ought not to be benefited or injured by an increase or decrease of expence that does not form a part of my plans, and which I cannot check. I hope, Sir, it may not be imputed a vanity in me to mention, that though Mr. Allen (as appears by his narrative) derived upwards of 12,000
l
(
d
Extract from
Evidence.
185
feature in the Plan, that the great advantages which the public and commerce were to derive, would justify an increase of Postage, which otherwise could not have been laid with effect. I believe it may be in the recollection of many gentlemen present, that previous to this Plan, notwithstanding the penalty attached, a great part of the correspondence of the country was carried on by coaches and other means, to avoid the tedious and insecure conveyance by the post. Mr. Palmer, in the first instance, proposed to the minister an increased Postage in lieu of an intended Tax on Coals, and pledged himself for its being productive. When it was found necessary to give him an appointment in the Office to superintend his Plan, this nominal salary of 1,500
l
l
l
l
l
l.;
l
therefore at this distance of time undertake to give any account of any one specific answer, but the general result of what passed I conceived to have been, that the terms of Mr. Palmer's Proposal appeared to me to be fair and reasonable, and that I was desirous of carrying it into execution, conceiving it would be of great public benefit; the outline of those terms, as proposed in 1784, I believe was, that Mr. Palmer should have some appointment for life, to superintend the execution of his proposal, with an allowance annexed to that appointment of 2
l
s.
186
750
l
ceive, could have been vacated on no grounds but such as would, by process of law, vacate any other appointment for life made by competent authority.—By whose authority was the draft of the original warrant made, to which the legal objecting was made? I am inclined to believe, that it was drawn up in consequence of different discussions on the subject, probably in consequence of suggestions from Mr. Palmer; but I rather believe prepared at the Treasury, or by directions from thence, and communicated to the Attorney General, though there is no trace that I know of for preparing it, or for a reference to the Attorney General.
(e)
Draft of a
being the intended
sent from the Treasury to the Attorney General.
187
"that it was drawn up in consequence of the conversations that had passed, and would have been carried into effect but for these legal objections." [vide (
d
l
l
s.
l.;
commerce thereof; we do therefore appoint him,
for and during his life,
188
"were directed to take place, and be computed, from the 2d day of August 1784, when the execution of the Plan first took place." Now, sir, I think the house must allow, that Mr. Palmer having made the original Agreement, so fully performed on his part, he would not voluntarily have accepted tills subsequent Appointment, so inferior both in powers and profits. But, how was he situated, in consequence of the legal objection to his original appointment, on the faith of which he had undertaken, and partly executed his Plan, and which objection might have been removed by a new act of parliament? Mr. Palmer, to prevent the utter ruin of his Plan by the delay and the inveterate opposition it met with, accepted a temporary appointment from the Treasury to enable him to proceed in the execution of it, leaving the final settlement till he had compleatly fulfilled his engagement, (
f
and packets, are also graciously pleased, as well as a reward for such services, as to encourage him to continue his exertions for furthering the same, to give and grant for us, our heirs and successors, to the said John Palmer, an Annual Salary of 1500
l
l
(
f
Extract from
Evidence.
189
not until the year 1789, after the Report of the Commissioners of Enquiry so strongly in his favour, and his letter to Mr. Pitt, entreating the fulfilment of his original Agreement, that he at last received this Appointment, when the arrears of salary and per-centage were paid up after about seven years delay, [vide (
c
c
any way whatever as to profits, so as it gave me any power to proceed with my plan; when an appointment was given me, Mr. Pitt assuring me at the same time, that my agreement should in every respect be completed to my satisfaction.
(
g
Extract from
Evidence.
190
to his employers, merely asking the necessary powers to fulfil it on his part, relying on their good faith for a similar conduct. On receiving this subsequent appointment after the compleat execution of his Plan; too late to enforce his original terms, he could only complain of the failure on their part, and express his apprehension for the consequence. This apprehension was relieved by the assurance of Mr. Pitt, that he should not be interfered with, that though nominally under the Postmaster General, he was virtually under the Treasury, who would always protect him in the conduct of his Plan, and that his agreement was equally valid as if secured by an act of parliament, (
g
h
merit of the 11th September 1789 being made out, did Mr. Pitt give you any assurances, of the protection of the Board of Treasury against any controul or interference on the part of the Postmaster General?—I was assured by Mr. Pitt, that I should feel myself equally protected by the Treasury, as if the Commission in October 1785 had been carried into execution; and there was little probability of any interference to the prejudice of my plan.—Did you ever consider yourself as acting under the controul of the Postmaster General?—No; upon all occasions, where any directions of theirs were not prejudicial to the public service, I acted agreeably to their wishes; when I thought otherwise, I resisted their commands, and asserted my independence of their power or authority, and that I held my office agreeably to my commission of 1785, and virtually under the Treasury.
(
h
of Counsel on the Evidence reported by a Committee of the House of Com-
191
"That the salary of 1500
l
l
mons, as to the Agreement made with
for the
and
of the
and its Revenue, and as to his Suspension.
l
192
"must terminate with his life." This is merely the deduction from a former Observation relative to the commutation of the per-centage on the tax estimated at 90,000
l
l
ment, no patent could be granted to him, by which he was to act independantly of the Postmaster General) yet there is nothing in the above-mentioned evidence which ought to deprive him of the benefit of his agreement, nor which could in a court of justice have that effect. It is established by this evidence, that the public derived from Mr. Palmer's exertions all the benefit which he had held forth as likely to accrue from them; and that he had acted with diligence and with perfect integrity in the discharge of his duty. And although we do not approve of the letters written by Mr. Palmer to his deputy, Mr. Bonner, which are the grounds for depriving Mr. Palmer of the benefit of his agreement, and we do not mean to say that a subordinate officer in any department ought not to behave with respect to his superiors, we think those letters are far from a sufficient ground to deprive him of that benefit. We also think it very doubtful whether a Court of Judicature would have thought that any attention ought to be paid to those letters, because, they were written in confidence to his deputy, and under an impression (though probably ill founded) that the Postmaster General were unfavourable to him, or from mistake, or misconception, were thwarting or impeding him in the execution of his plan. And we think it appears from evidence, that the deputy who communicated those letters to the Postmaster General, and thus betrayed his private confidential correspondence, was himself worthy of no credit, and acted a very blameable part in the transaction with White, as appears from the report. J. MANSFIELD, T. ERSKINE, V. GIBBS, WILLIAM ADAM. 24th April 1799.
193
as improvement, and to have acted with strict integrity, having at the outset of his arduous undertaking procured the conveyance of mails at 20,000
l
l
i
(
i
Extract from Lord
Evidence.
and
Extract from the Earl of
Evidence.
194
others had been led, in many respects, to doubt the merits of the plan, declares to Mr. Palmer in a letter, "That he has well deserved his salary, and per-centage, for which the faith of government is pledged to him." (
k
l
(
k
Letter from Lord
to
dated Dec.
195
their original price, (
l
(
l
Extract from
Evidence.
d.
d.
Extract from
Letter to
dated May
d.
196
letter at the same time expresses a wish to the deputy, that Wilson in his interview with lord Walsingham might give his lordship such a specimen of what he might expect from meddling with persons of his description, as would prevent a future interference so prejudicial to the interests of the public. The right hon. gentleman has denominated this transaction a gross want of economy on the part of Mr. Palmer, who, in one instance, had saved more than 20,000
l
l
l
s.
l
s.
l
s.
l
s.
m
(
m
Extract from
Evidence.
197
that the private letter, the foundation of this charge, is dated in October 1788, nearly a twelvemonth prior to his appointment under the Post Master General. —The second charge relates to a man named White, who was employed on the roads, and who kept an account of travelling expences with Mr. Palmer's deputy. On the latter complaining to Mr. Palmer of this man's neglect, and that he could not bring him to an account for monies advanced, Mr. Palmer sent for White, and after taking him to task for his misconduct, desired a Mr. Hasker, the superintendant of the mails, and of these
—[Report, p. 34.] Do you recollect having had any transactions with a person of the name of Wilson, in the Post Office? I do.—State what they were?—During my absence in Ireland, in 1788, on official business, my deputy sent me two of lord Walsingham's letters, authorising two mail coaches a day, for his majesty's accommodation whilst at Cheltenham, to be established at any expence. I disapproved of the very improvident and extravagant mode by which this very proper accommodation was to be carried into effect; and finding on my return Mr. Wilson the contractor much elevated by being allowed to contract with the Postmaster General in a way so much more beneficial to himself than on the terms to which he had been, after much trouble, reduced by me (as I had got the contracts down from 3
d.
d.
d.
198
people, to assist this man in the recollection of the various journeys he had performed, and to make out a fair bill accordingly. This was done, and the whole that Mr. Palmer meant by telling his deputy in a letter that he was glad this bill was paid as being an aukward business," was a mere caution for his future conduct; as however just this bill was, and actually below the sum advanced, Mr. Palmer was unwilling to encourage a precedent liable to abuse, that of allowing the payment of the smallest sum, for which the proper voucher was not produced. (
n
guineas to two of the contractors for their trouble in conducting and overlooking the whole business. The next coach, in 1791, (I being in Scotland) their lordships contracted for at 1
s.
d.
d.
s.;
d.
s.
s.
s.
s.
(
n
Extract from
Evidence.
199
that in the progress of this plan, amidst all the opposition Mr. Palmer met with, and the various description of persons he was obliged to employ on the roads, that-many sums might have been charged, of which an exact account could not be kept. But, with respect to the account in question, it was not in fact signed by Mr. Palmer, nor is it produced in the evidence as signed by him; therefore, if there could have been a doubt as to the purity of his motive, no charge was established.— But to prove how little Mr. Palmer could be personally interested in the payment of this bill, and how totally unworthy of credit the deputy who brought forward the charge, I beg leave to read to the house an extract of a letter from the deputy to Mr. Palmer, relative to this subject, contained in the evidence, page 34, to which I earnestly request their attention, this deputy being the only witness upon the next and last charge.—
Extract of a Letter from
to
dated June
for making good deficiencies in the Accounts, I declined being in any respect a party to such a business; and the Superintendant of the Mails, Mr. Hasker, was called upon by the Comptroller General to act with, and instruct White, in the doing it. It was to the Comptroller General, and not to me, that the rough drafts of those Accounts were shewn, previous to their being fairly written out for signature; and the same reason that induced me to decline taking any part of the business was my reason for not signing thern when prepared.
200
the same alarming consequences that a bad principle in them might have occasioned. I had instances in the adjusting one account only, which are sufficient to confirm my apprehensions, though I do not imagine there was any design to injure me; but in certain periods of White's account, against which I happened to have memorandums of different sums I had advanced to him, there were omissions to the amount of between 300
l
l
l
s.
l
l
201
Accounts were false. In his Examination before the Committee id 1797, as appears by this Evidence, he expressly states, that this letter and affidavit, (the particulars of which he did not recollect) were drawn up by the Deputy, by whose desire he copied them, and swore to the contents of the latter; that it was from the Deputy himself he received the order to make out the accounts with Mr. Hasker, and that the whole amount had been advanced and laid out in the service, but that, in some instances, from the loss of vouchers, sums had been charged from memory only to make good the deficiency. (
o
(
o
Extract from the Evidence of
202
singham on being questioned as to this point declares, "that he has no reason in that or in any other instance to impute to Mr. Palmer any private interest of his own in making up the office accounts." (
p
l
l
l
l
it?—The Deputy Comptroller General.— Who told you what to swear?—The same person that drew the affidavit up.— Who drew the affidavit? The same person.
(
p
Extract from Lord
Evidence.
203
ing this disorder to its crisis. But, as Mr. Palmer states "these were only transient thoughts which seldom outlived the day, and were never, upon any occasion, acted on;" nor is there a single passage throughout these letters to prove the contrary. The last of them, extracted from a long and confidential correspondence, drawn from Mr. Palmer at moments of irritation which I believe few tempers could have withstood, is dated in October 1790; and during the whole of this period, not the slightest complaint appears to have been made on the part of the public or the Post-masters General. The actual delay took place in 1792; and, with the exception of these private letters, the last of which was written nearly two years before, the Post-masters General confess that they have no other Evidence to prove this charge than the bare assertion of the Deputy; (
q
Minute of Post-master General—General Post Office, March
(
q
Extract from the Earl of
Evidence.
204
"all means be continued.
W. Ch.
Answer. General Post Office, March
r
(
r
The Report of
First Clerk in the Comptroller General's Office in the General Post Office.
205
sir, the house may well suppose that a trifle like this was not the real ground of rupture; but the disputes betwixt the Postmaster General and Mr. Palmer, which had continued so long, had at last arrived to that extremity, it was impossible they could go on together. He was continually denying their authority, and remonstrating with them and with the Treasury upon their interference to the prejudice of his plan; their lordships on their part, naturally jealous of their own power, and having a better opinion of their talents for business than Mr. Palmer gave them credit, for, chose to act upon that opinion, and not to be considered as cyphers at the head of their own department. How far it might have been for the advantage of the public, that their lordships had been content to leave Mr. Palmer in the management of his plan, is not for me to determine; but I think it natural to suppose that a man like him who had invented and brought this plan to bear amidst the almost insuperable difficulties that surrounded him, was more likely to preserve and still further to improve it, than noble-
T. Lloyd. Chesterfield House, March 7th 1792. Witness, James Lambert (in the absence of the Solicitor).
Copy of a Letter from Mr. LAMBERT to Mr. PALMER, dated 8th March 1792; together with a Minute of the P. M. GI. dated 7th March 1792.—[Report, p. 91.] Mr. Lambert presents his respectful compliments to Mr. Palmer; has received the favour of the note, but not in time to wait on him before ten o'clock. He therefore takes the liberty of sending Mr. Palmer the enclosed minute of the P. M. Gls. and if the bearer should meet with Mr. Palmer at home, the key may he delivered to him.—Mr. L. is sorry to be the bearer of a disagreeable message, but it was not in his power to avoid it.—If Mr. Palmer should have any objections to give up the key, he will be pleased either to state them in writing, or Mr. L. will wait on him at any hour Mr. Palmer may appoint. Cray's Inn, 8th March 1792.
(Minute.) The Comptroller General is hereby directed to deliver immediately to Mr. Bonnor, the Deputy Comptroller General, or to Mr. Lambert, Solicitor to the Post Office in the absence of Mr. Parkins, the key of the Deputy Comptroller General's room. W. Ch. The key was delivered immediately to the messenger who brought Mr. L.'s letter. March 7th,—92.
206
men whose habits in life were not calculated for the business; who on coming into office, had to learn that business from their own subordinate officers, the old enemies of the plan, and who were so liable to be displaced before they could attain any competent knowledge of it, that in the space of only six years, there were eight different Postmasters General to conduct the various and complex branches of this extensive concern. Without detaining the house by reading them, I would ask any hon. gentleman who may have seen the Postmaster General's minutes contained in this evidence, if it was possible Mr. Palmer could proceed in the improvement of his plan with such interruption? And yet these minutes were selected from, numberless others in proof of their lordships anxiety not to impede him; I would refer to the deputy's opinion of these minutes, expressed on the margin of one of them. (
s
(
s
Mr. Bonnor's Remarks. "There is no "replying to this without risking a quarrel; "but in this part of the P. M. Gl.'s object, their lordships must understand by "the D. C. Gl.'s last Minute on the subject, that they failed completely."
On the contrary', it is the P. M. G.'s constant desire, and was so stated in the first Minute which their lordships ever made in August last; viz. "that every person should represent against the impropriety or inexpediency of any order the P. M. G. may give, as their lordships will be as ready to revoke it, as they can be to give it, if it is fraught with any material objections;" therefore Mr. Bonnor is to understand that the P. M. G. are always willing and desirous to receive all necess-
207
Mr. Palmer have in quarrelling with their lordships? Had they let him alone, he never wished to interfere with their patronage or power. These very private letters, the only pretence that has ever been set up for his dismissal, prove that he would have agreed with them had it been possible. What does he say in one of them? (The hon. gentleman here referred to the letters in the Report, p. 60.) "I really have always felt that every material alteration should have their sanction, but that it is impossible with lord Walsingham to do this." Again, in another letter, "Though the conduct of the lords is the very thing I ought to wish, and must end well, yet it revives old quarrels and feelings, and fevers me in spite of myself? d—n them, I never can get a little quiet or bathing but this
ary information upon the points about which they are giving direction. The P. M. G. are utterly at a loss to know, after the quotations they have made from their Minutes, where is the positive order "not to employ a substitute for Crompton," as Mr. Bonnor knows the order was the direct reverse; viz. that the Comptroller General was expressly allowed a substitute, only he was to take him from the messengers, not from the letter carriers.—Mr. Bonnor's Remarks. "This would employ "more time than the whole of their official "duty requires; to represent, to vindicate "their representations; to produce proofs; "maintain arguments, in 9 out of 10 of "which, though right, they would be "obliged to yield; and 9 out of 10 of the "points disputed, not worth saying 3 "words about, or bestowing 3 minutes "upon; and so create fresh correspondence and fresh disputes."
Whenever Mr. Bonnor discovers oversights or errors in the P. M. G.'s Minutes, of which there are probably many, he should always point them out; sometimes they arise from miscopying, oftener perhaps from real mistakes, but never deliberately or intentionally. The P. M. G. observed, that no messenger was allotted to any other officer but the Comptroller General: in answer to which Mr. Bonnor cites Mr. Commins, the Chamber-keeper, whose duties are all domestic, and certainly not those of a messenger, for he is to keep the door, the stationary, the coals, to overlook bills, to pump the well, & c. therefore that is no case in point.—Mr. BONNOR'S
Remarks.
208
"is the case." Can any thing picture his real feeling and regret at these disputes more strongly than this, for there can be no doubt of his sincerity here, as he little thought at the moment, the use that was afterwards to be made of these letters? Can it be wondered that he should have thus confidentially expressed his resentment at their lordship's conduct, when to their very faces he denied their authority? And should no allowance have been made for those feelings at seeing his reputation, his fortune, and the public interest thus sacrificed, by the wanton and vexatious interference of a power he had never been taught to acknowledge, and which was totally incompatible with the nature and terms of his agreement in undertaking a plan for the success of which he was wholly responsible? (
t
unless Mr. B.'s Statement of his duties is erroneous, which the P. M. G. does say is the case.".
The Comptroller General was distinctly allowed any one of the messengers to be in waiting, vice Crompton, and they were to be exempted from all other duties during that time, for which see the words of both Minutes; and if Mr. Bonnor had applied to any one of the extra messengers, they probably would have undertaken it without much reluctance. If the misconception was accidental in Mr. Bonnor, it was by no means blameable; but no man who reads the P. M. G.'s two Minutes can say, that the business of the Office was interrupted by their lordships refusing to the Comptroller General the substitute he wanted in Crompton's stead. W. Ch.
(
t
Extract from
Remonstrance to the Treasury, January
if controuled,
209
entreat the house to allow me to read one letter only from Mr. Palmer to the Postmasters General, which I think is but
of lord Walsingham, who frequently wrote to me for official information, and expressed opinions very flattering both to myself and my Plan, and among many others, I received from him the following note, viz. "December 28th, 1787. I have long wished to see that point cleared, of your "Plan costing less than the old one, for "I have understood invariably, that it cost "more, but that the benefits overpaid the "expences. Be it one or the other, it "was a most fortunate regulation, and "you
will well deserve the Salary and Commission on the increased Revenue, for which "the faith, of Government is pledged to you.
but my own Clerks declared themselves laid under strong injunctions by his Lordship, to keep the matter perfectly secret from me.
210
fair after the exposure of his private correspondence. The letter I mean is dated in October J 790, during the period of these
—
"There is no proof of the improvement of the Revenue, the expence exceeds the former by 18,000
l
No documents in opposition to the measure produced."
"Nothing like it.
"Many Merchants' Letters are now "sent as Parcels by the Flys and Diligences."
"Not a "word true."
211
disputes, being a strong remonstrance on their conduct. I beg to observe that there are two copies of this letter in the evidence,
his supercession of my powers in that kingdom completely stopt. The Postmaster General having, after this dispute, sent a Letter to Mr. Pitt, containing charges against me, on my challenging them to fix a single blot on any part of my conduct: I was desirous of answering these charges, but prevented by assurances from the Postmaster General, that the Letter was merely private, and would be thought no more of; I was likewise to experience in future no more vexatious interference in my executive department. However, Lord Walsingham's conduct soon revived the disputes, and I was afterwards much surprized to find that this
private Letter
recorded accusation against me in the Office Books, without giving me an intimation on the subject, or an opportunity to answer it.
rights acquired by specific agreement, and past services.
referred to in the above Extract.
Comptroller-General's Office,
responsible ultimately to the Lords Commissioners
212
lord Walsingham having complained that the one produced by Mr. Palmer did not contain the whole of the original as pro-
of his Majesty's Treasury only, by his agreement, as well as by their warrant of appointment, originating with them.
It arises from that regard every individual has a right to pay to his own interest, peace, and character.
from this conviction only, he Claims from Government those powers originally promised him.
213
duced by his lordship; I therefore beg leave to read the whole of this letter, to satisfy the house that Mr. Palmer had no motive in omitting part of it but to save unnecessary trouble to the reader— Putney Oct. 12, 1790—"My Lords; I am concerned your lordships attempt to supersede my commission; and the ill effects which I apprehend may arise to the correspondence of the country, from your "further interference with my regulations, oblige me to apply to the minister "for his accustomed support, by whose "warrant I received that commission, and "to whom only I consider myself responsible for my conduct; for though I am "nominally under the Postmaster General "I am virtually under the Treasury.—The "original warrant, which I have the honour to inclose your lordships, will shew "you, that it was intended I should hold "my office under the crown, and not the "Post-Office, for reasons too obvious to "the minister. This warrant being submitted to the opinion of the Attorney "General, he advised, that, according to "the present constitution of the Post-"Office, my employ could be legally held "only under the Postmaster General, by "a warrant, from the Treasury, directing "them to grant such appointment, with "the powers expressed in it. It was "therefore made out in the manner I now "hold it, as a matter of present necessity.
est, most experienced, and confidential Officers, will be necessary to accompany the said Memorial. The Comptroller-General, therefore, requests their Lordships will have the goodness to send the above Papers as early as they conveniently can, for the information of the Lords of the Treasury,
that he may be enabled to answer them us soon as possible.
on every occasion, where an increased price has been demanded for conveying the Mails by a Cart, such demand has been at once invariably complied with by their Lordships; but when required for the conveyance by a Coach, and their Lordships have been assured that the terms were even less than the Mails could be conveyed for
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Your lordships therefore venturing to supersede a commission granted me under a warrant from the Treasury to former Postmasters General, for services the Lords Commissioners had expressed themselves so partial to, and under such particular circumstances, as will appear by the inclosed Treasury minute; contradicting too the orders given by them. in consequence of their circular letter to all Postmasters in the year 1785, has, I think, been rather a hasty and ill-advised measure, and not consistent with that judgment and temper which usually guide your lordships' conduct. No man, I am sure, in this kingdom is more sensible than I am to the necessity of proper subordination, or to the respect due to the nobility of this country, or has higher obligations to them; and I am sure I cannot give a stronger proof of it, than in still retaining my respect and esteem for your lordships, after the very unhandsome and unprovoked conduct you have used towards me. Both your lordships, on accepting your appointments, knew my situation in the office, and found me in the uncontrouled exercise of the powers the warrant from government had directed to be given me; your lordships have an undoubted right, if you saw me at any time, proceeding wrong, or any ill effects arising from my conduct, to report it to the Trea
by a Cart on the same Road;
as well as the Public, will be fully informed in his Memorial to their Lordships,
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sury; but I challenge your lordships to put your finger on one single blot committed by me, from the moment I took my appointment till this time. Why, therefore, this wanton interference, threatening me, and insulting and disgracing valuable officers, who are known to be attached to me, and at a time when they are particularly distinguishing themselves for the good of the service? Indeed, my lords, if you persist in such treatment of, them, I shall not have an officer of any value remain with me, if they can possibly get situations in any other employ.—Your lordships have been informed of the disgraceful opposition to my plan, before I came into office, which made it necessary for the minister to give me powers to act as I pleased in the arrangements of the posts and conducting its business: the inclosed letters to all Postmasters will show it. And can it be supposed, that after the success and beneficial effects which were the consequence of those powers being given me, I am to be deprived, of them, and expected to conduct so complex and difficult a business, or extend my plan with less powers: that rev regulations should be submitted in ah office so liable to change, to every Postmaster General to check or controul them, and to do which he must either advise with the officers under me, or those most active in a former opposition to ruin my plan. If this were the case, however well disposed your lordships may be, do you think it could exist, or the public be long in possession of its benefits?—Mr. Pitt, my lords, has made a purchase of my ingenuity and judgment, such as it is, and I am to act upon that judgment, and no other person's is whatever, subject, if I do wrong, to your lordships' observations and report to the Treasury. Nor is this by any means new to the office: Mr. Allen, for a very partial improvement of the Cross Posts, not only had the whole power and management delegated to him, but the estate itself, and that without any controul whatever; nor would he even inform the Postmaster General of any part of his plan. As soon as they were satisfied, from his character, and the few hints he gave them, that it would be a benefit to correspondence, and some advantage to the revenue, so far from being jealous of parting with their authorities, they solicited government that they might do
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Extract from
Evidence.
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no part of this Evidence stated that which is not strictly true. Upon this excess in the expenditure, I shall beg leave to read his own words. The question to Mr. Palmer is, "What has been the excess in the "expenditure in the General Post-Office, "during the period of your suspension, "beyond the average during the period of "your management?—A. 187,848
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Committee in their case reported only the Evidence; Mr. Palmer's Committee have their Observations on his Evidence. These gentlemen could not prove a contract with government; Mr. Palmer's Committee and his Counsel declare that he has fully proved his contract. Without imputing the least blame to these gentlemen, it so happened, that the country did not derive one shilling benefit from all the expence which they had incurred: in Mr. Palmer's case the country has received nearly a hundred ibid the profits that he asks, and the country must continue to enjoy their profits, whilst the advantage to Mr. Palmer's family must terminate with his life. Lastly; these gentlemen, though they would have been considerable losers but for the liberality of parliament, intended no risk in the outset, beyond the fair adventure of a mercantile speculation; Mr. Palmer en the contrary, sacrificed his time, his comforts, his health, his property, every thing dear to him in life, for the attainment of an object ill which his own sanguine mind alone anticipated success, and in which had he failed, he only could have been the sufferer. With this distinction in the cases, the liberality of this house gave these gentlemen two thirds of their claim; I can hardly think therefore, it will refuse Mr. Palmer at the recommendation of its own Committee, a sum not exceeding the half of what a court of justice would compel the payment. And, after all, what is this sum which is to tempt the house to do that which its members individually would not, could not do? If the debt is acknowledged, the amount of the arrears is a stronger argument for its payment, and these arrears, as nearly as I can guess (for it must depend on the estimate of the taxes), would not exceed 70,000
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chasers. The petitioners estimated their loss at 36,000
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sequent appointment, Mr. Palmer was restricted in his percentage on the future encreased Postage, which has since been laid, and which the minister in proposing to the house has invariably justified upon the merits of his Plan; and the house must be aware, that though the encreased Postage has improved the Revenue, it, certainly has diminished the correspondence, or prevented that growing increase with the increased population and commerce of the country, so far injuring the Petitioner. Suppose these improvements had never been effected, and that the Posts were now in the state in which Mr. Palmer found them; would not a minister be glad to make the agreement that was then entered into? Why, then, the agreement having been performed, and the country so long in the enjoyment of those advantages which it must continue to enjoy whilst the country exists; is it consistent with the honour and dignity of this house to refuse their petitioner the half only of that small proportion to which the faith of government was originally pledged? Plow many honourable gentlemen are now present whose fortunes equal and far exceed the sum claimed by this report. I would ask fairly, has there been a capital amongst the whole acquired with more credit, to its possessor, or advantage to the country, than Mr. Palmer's; I can assure the house and appeal to many of Mr. Palmer's friends for the truth; that had he confined his labours to the improvement of his private property, judging by the success of others, he might by this time have realized a larger capital than the vote of this nights may give him. And would it not be hard, after such sacrifices, that he should become at last a loser;—Sir, I have now said all that I shall presume to trouble the house with in favour of this motion, and there is but one more point to which I request their indulgent attention. It has been urged by friends, that I should endeavour to compromise this claim: not from a doubt of its justice; but that from the uncertainty of the line that government might take, it were better, if possible, to secure a part, than risk the whole of what the Committee have recommended.—I shall, therefore, and I hope without offence, state my real sentiments on this subject. I cannot think that my friends would themselves adopt the advice they recommend, or that they would not incur the danger they wish me to avoid. I cannot think that a compromise is the feeling
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Mr. Rose.
—During the many years which I have had the honour to possess a eat in this house, it has seldom, if ever, fallen to my lot, to witness a Claim brought forward with a more ingratiating propriety of manner, than that which has just been introduced by the hon. gent. Indeed, so powerfully has that manner interested my feelings, that nothing but the most imperious sense of my public duty could now induce me to rise as his opponent. It is strictly correct, as my right hon. friend (Mr. Long) has already stated, that Mr. Pitt, upon his immediate acceptance of Mr. Palmer's Plan, did think he had concluded a very advantageous bargain for the country, and that he did also think the inventor of the Plan intitled to the perfect fulfilment of his Agreement for that great, and growing benefit which the country, through his ingenuity, had obtained. But, if I concede this much to one side of the question, I feel myself equally bound to assert upon the other, that it was
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Mr. Croker.
—Sir; as a member of the Committee whose Report is now under consideration, I beg to offer my opinion upon the present occasion. I have, however, to premise, that there is one point in this Report upon which I had the misfortune to differ from those gentlemen with whom I was acting, though it is but fair to confess that on deciding upon the question, the great body of the Committee were against me.—The point to which I allude is the Claim of Mr. Palmer to the salary of 1500
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The Chancellor of the Exchequer.
—It is with infinite reluctance that I rise upon this occasion, for the task which I have to perform is irksome to my feelings, but at the same time it is so essentially blended with my sense of public duty, that I cannot possibly avoid it; indeed, if any thing could tend more than another, to make an impression upon the house in favour of the petitioner, it is the speech of the honourable gentleman who opened, the debate; for, certainly, it was urged with every point, and enforced with every argument that such a subject could or would endure. It was calculated to impress the house with high respect for the petitioner, and to give very great importance to the discussion of his claims. I really feel myself in an unfortunate predicament, in being obliged to differ widely from the hon. gentleman, and my situation is rendered more irksome, when, as the ground of that difference in opinion, I am forced to assign very disagreeable reasons. I wish to have the house thoroughly apprised, that in case they acquiesce with the claim now before them, their vote will positively substantiate upon the country a demand for no less a sum than 97,000
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scire facias,
Mr. Windham.
—I cannot, sir, at all admit, that the mode adopted in arguing this
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Sir John Newport
stated himself to have been a member of the Committee; which had bestowed upon every transaction connected with the case, the most particular and deliberate attention. He then read various extracts from the Evidence detailed before the Committee, upon the face of which he contended that Mr. Palmer's Claim for remuneration was clearly made out and established.
Sir Francis Burdett.
—Since I have been a member of this assembly, I believe it has never been my reproach that I have been found the champion of needless extravagance, or the advocate of a wanton profusion with the public money. Yet, much as I respect the maxims of economy, I am so far from esteeming them paramount to the claims of justice, that I must rise to give the present ques-
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Mr. George Johnstone
observed, that the mode of attack adopted by the opposition members that night appeared to him quite of a novel complexion; for he believed that this was the first occasion upon which gentlemen sitting upon the treasury bench had been reproached for a too scrupulous regard of the public money, and held out to the nation as over-cautious misers of the enormous trust reposed in their discretion: and he could not avoid remarking as something additionally extraordinary, that the present advocates for a profuse generosity, were the very persons who were clamouring in every man's ears against the increasing hardships of the times, and the necessity of a reduced expenditure. The two parties seemed completely to have shifted their ground while arguing the present case; for now ministers were violently blamed, merely because they followed these prudential maxims so long recommended by their adversaries. Whatever might be the event of the present question, he must assert, that his right hon. friend, the Chancellor of the Exchequer, simply performed his duty, by resisting all doubtful demands upon the public purse, of which that house was the natural guardian, and was bound by every just principle to protect from spoliation with the same anxiety as any individual would his private property.
Lord Henry Petty,
after recapitulating and enforcing several of Mr. Windham's remarks, proceeded to state, that leave to bring in the present petition, had been applied for while he held the situation of chancellor of the exchequer; that without pledging himself in the slightest degree,
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Sir Thomas Turton
—Sir having myself formed one of the Committee appointed by the house to examine into the merits of Mr. Palmer's Agreement with government, I feel it a peculiar duty to otter my sentiments upon the present consideration of the Report.—Sir; I could wish the house to recollect, that the manner in which this Committee was selected, was agreed to by every one interested for or against the present question, as the fairest and most impartial mode that could be adopted. It was comprised, in the first place, of all the county members, of all the representatives of the great mercantile cities, of gentlemen of the long robe, and of merchants, and I challenge any gentleman in this house to produce from the earliest records of parliament, a committee more qualified to ascertain the merits of the case at issue, or more likely to administer equal justice to the public and to the individual.—Sir; I can boldly aver, that there never was a body of gentlemen who paid a more strict and constant attention to the subject before them, or who went more fully and essentially into the whole of the Evidence during a long and laborious investigation. The result of that investigation is now before you, and they there declare themselves of opinion, "That Mr. Palmer has fully proved his Agreement, and is justly entitled to the sum he claims."—Now, sir, I am far from asserting, that this house is
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The Solicitor General
(Sir Thomas Plomer) briefly observed, that it was his fixed opinion, that Mr. Palmer could establish no legal claim whatever to any part of the remuneration proposed; but that at all
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Mr. William Smith
informed the house, that he had been fully acquainted with every particular relative to this business, at the time when the bargain was originally entered into between Mr. Palmer and the minister; and that he could assert from his own positive knowledge, that Mr. Palmer at that time considered himself to be forming an Agreement, which should stand independently upon its own merits, and not be liable to avoidance, upon any personal quarrel or misunderstanding between the parties. And he could also state, that from many communications had with Mr. Pitt, about the same period, he had every reason to believe the minister considered the bargain exactly in the same point of view.
Mr. Peter Moore
said it was impossible Mr. Palmer could ever have intended to resign the positive Claim he had under the original Agreement, when he accepted of the appointment, and that it was a duty incumbent upon the country to prevent one of its greatest benefactors from reproaching them, not only with ingratitude but with dishonesty.
Dr. Laurence
referred to the Evidence already before the house, for a thorough conviction that the bargain had been regularly and positively made; and thought it would be exceedingly disgraceful to refuse a small compensation for a very large benefit already derived and permanently possessed.—The Question now being called for,
Major Palmer
again rose, to state that he had considered it a duty to the Committee in the first instance to frame his motion upon their Report, but, in consequence of the difference of opinion expressed by an hon. member of it (Mr. Croker,) he should beg leave, for the sake of meeting their unanimity, and as far as he could that of the house, to withdraw his motion including the 1,500
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For the Resolution.
137
Against it.
71
Majority for the Resolution.
—66
The house then resumed, and the Report was ordered to be taken into consideration on Monday the 10th.
HOUSE OF LORDS.
Friday, May 13, 1808.
[DEBTORS BILL.]
On the second reading of this bill being moved by lord Ellenborough,
The Earl of Moira
objected to its principle, which appeared to be this, that a debtor was to be subject to twelve months imprisonment for a debt of 20
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Lord Ellenborough
contended, that his noble friend had in some degree misconceived the object of the bill, as it did not impose twelve months imprisonment upon a debtor; the creditor might release him sooner. The only object of the bill was, that after having been imprisoned for 12 months the debtor might demand his discharge. He admitted that there were no means in this bill of distinguishing the fraudulent from the unfortunate debtor, nor was it practicable, but at the same time it was not likely that such frauds would be committed for the sake of obtaining an amount of less than 20
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Lord Erskine
observed, that under the law, as it now stood, a debtor might be imprisoned for an indefinite time; but by the present bill he might, where the debt did not exceed 20
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The Lord Chancellor
also supported the bill. He had some doubt as to how far it might tend to weaken the security of the creditor, but he thought it an experiment worth trying.—The bill was then read a second time.
HOUSE OF COMMONS.
Friday, May 13, 1808.
[PETITION RESPECTING THE REPORT ON
General Gascoyne
presented a petition from the gentlemen, clergy, merchants, and other inhabitants of Liverpool; setting forth, "That the said town essentially depends for the supply of bread to its numerous inhabitants, and a large and populous district in the interior of the county of Lancaster, upon importations of corn and flour from other parts, and that a large proportion of such supply has heretofore been derived from foreign countries; and that, of late, in consequence of the unhappy situation of the continent of Europe, and the embargo which has taken place in the U. States of America, the importation of foreign corn and flour has ceased, and the prices of these articles have advanced considerably, and are still advancing, while, at the same time, from the stagnation of trade, and the consequent want of employment, and depreciation of wages, the labouring classes of the people are become less able to purchase these necessaries of life at a high rate, or even more reasonable rates, as fully appears by the Report lately made of evidence taken before a committee of the house, ordered to be printed on the 12th of April last, on
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[PETITION AGAINST THE CURATES RESIDENCE BILL.]
Mr. Charles Dundas
presented a Petition from certain of the clergy resident in the county of Berks, taking notice of the Bill for making more effectual provision for the maintenance of Stipendiary Curates in England, and for their residence on their cures; and setting forth, "That the petitioners, impressed with serious apprehension of the fatal consequences with which the regular clergy and established church of this kingdom are threatened, if the said Bill should pass into law, consequences which they have maturely weighed, and as it became their duty, have anticipated with unimpassioned and unbiassed deliberation, humbly lay the following considerations before the house: That they are penetrated with the deepest concern in contemplating the probable injuries which the character of the clergy of the church of England will sustain as a body, from the suspicions which this Bill is calculated to inspire, suspicions which they conceive are unmerited, tending to lower them in the estimation of the people, and to alienate, if not to destroy, that sentiment of respect and attachment which has been hitherto observed towards the clergy, as an integral and important branch of our constitutional polity, a sentiment which is so eminently necessary to the preservation of our pure religion, as in church and state established; and it has not been without
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[CROWN LANDS.]
Mr. Huskisson
, after a short statement of the object of his motion, moved a Resolution of the house, that in all Bills of inclosure, draining, &c. in which his majesty's interests, either in
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Mr. Whitbread
did not think a sufficient ground had been laid for a resolution which, in his opinion, went to impose unnecessary expence and inconvenience upon the parties to bills of enclosure. No instance of injury having been done to his majesty's rights had been stated by the hon. gent. He wished the motion could be deferred until the country gentlemen, who were those most nearly interested, should receive information upon the subject.
Mr. Huskisson
replied, that many instances had occurred in which the interests of the crown had been sacrificed from the want of such a clause in bills of enclosure. He particularised one of these instances in the enclosure at Sherwood Forest. As to inconveniencing the parties to such bills, the fact was, that at present where his majesty's interests were concerned, a bill of inclosure could not be introduced in the house without the previous consent of the crown; the resolution which he proposed tended therefore to diminish this obstacle.
Mr. Taylor
contended, that if the interests of the crown had in any case been sacrificed as the practice now stood, it must have been owing to the negligence of the surveyor general of Crown Lands, and surveyor-general of woods and forests, whose peculiar duty it was to examine bills of inclosure, that they might not trench on his majesty's rights. He could not give his consent to the Resolution, because it would load the parties to inclosure bills with a heavy expence, without at all benefiting the interests of the crown.
Mr. Graham
spoke to a similar effect.
Mr. S. Bourne
supported the resolution, and sir J. Newport opposed it.
The Chancellor of the Exchequer
defended the Resolution. The interests of the crown and the interests of the public were one and the same; and any measure that tended to protect the one in this instance must tend to protect the other. He conceived, that the adoption of the Resolution, besides affording an additional security to the interests of the crown, would relieve those who had those interests more immediately in their care from what was
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[LIFE ANNUITY PLAN.]
On the motion of the Chancellor of the Exchequer, the house resolved itself into a committee, to consider of enabling holders of three per cent. stock, to purchase Life Annuities.
The Chancellor of the Exchequer
then rose, and addressed the chairman nearly as follows:—Sir, in consequence of the notice which I gave yesterday, I rise to propose to the committee certain Resolutions, for the purpose of enabling persons possessing stock in the 3 per cents. to transfer that stock to the commissioners for the reduction of the national debt, with the view of obtaining in its stead equivalent Annuities. Though the subject, sir, is of great importance, I do not think that at this moment the Resolutions will lead to any discussion, because I am not disposed to request that the house will form any opinion upon them this night. All that I intend is, after having briefly explained the nature of my proposition, to move the reading of the first Resolution pro formâ, and then to propose, sir, that you report progress. The whole of the Resolutions will be printed, and put into the hands of members as speedily as possible; and I shall defer any motion for resuming this committee until next week, in order that full time may be given for the due consideration of the subject.—Before I proceed in my statement, I think it extremely necessary to guard myself against any misapprehension that might otherwise arise, with respect to the tendency of the measure which I am about to propose in regard to the Sinking Fund. I declare to the committee, that I have no idea, directly or indirectly, of diverting the operation of the Sinking Fund from its natural and proper object, the Redemption of the National Debt. I trust, therefore, that no preconceived opinion on this subject, will be allowed to prejudice the minds of the committee.—I shall now, sir, state the nature of my proposition, and the reasons which induce me to recommend it to the adoption of the committee. I mean to propose, that liberty be given to any person possessing stock in either of the great 3 per cents, (the Consolidated or the Reduced) to transfer that stock into the hands of the commissioners for the reduction of the National Debt; and that on such transfer he be entitled to receive an Annuity for life, amounting to such a sum over and above the dividend on his stock,
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Mr. Windham
would not in the present early stage go into any detailed observations on the plan submitted to the committee by the right hon. gent., but merely rose to observe, that there was this obvious and fundamental objection to the Plan, that it did, in a greater or less degree, tend to vitiate the morals of the lower orders of the people. He was afraid that too many parents would be found, who would be very willing to sacrifice the future interests of their children to their own immediate gratification. The system of annuities was too generally attended with such consequences, and he saw nothing in the Plan of the right hon. gent. calculated to obviate such effects in the present instance.
Mr. Brand
supposed a case in which five millions were transferred when the stocks were at 60; he then supposed, that by the natural progress of the price from the operation of the Sinking Fund, the stocks Would reach 65, but that by the accelerated progress, in consequence of removing so much from the market, they would rise to 70: in that case he contended, that no advantage would be derived from the measure, but rather that it would be injurious.
Mr. Tierney
deprecated the facility which the Plan proposed to afford to persons in the lower walks of life to do that which would be highly injurious to their families. At the same time, he did not believe that there was in this country any considerable body of people who would be disposed to avail themselves of the Plan. Persons of high rank could with case obtain annuities at the present moment, on landed security. Mr. Pitt had tried a similar Plan in 1783, which intirely failed. Every thing led him to believe that capital and increase of capital
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Mr. Rose
contended that the plan of his right hon. friend would be beneficial to the individuals who should transfer their stock for annuities, in as much as it would secure their annuities without any of the difficulties of recovery attending annuities charged upon lands. The public funds would therefore be preferred; and that the practice of purchasing under this plan would not be injurious to the public, was apparent from the circumstance that the short annuities had lately afforded an op-
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Lord H. Petty
allowed that, though in peace, capital might be withdrawn from the funds to be employed in commerce, yet the funds would rise, as no loans would then be wanted. However, looking, as they ought, to the general principle in such discussions, their measures should be framed, so as to meet any sudden shock, which might, by possibility, occur to depress the price of the funds. The plan of the right hon. gent. would hold out greater inducements to persons having lower capitals to purchase, than were to be met with in the course of fair trade. The effect would be, that a bonus would thus be given by government upon the transaction, and that the lower and middle classes would thus avail themselves of the profit held out by government. It was well known that where annuities had been encouraged by government to any extent, they produced a direct effect upon the morals of the country. The
rentes viagères
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Mr. Huskisson
defended the Plan of his right hon. friend. It gave no bonus to; persons for investing their capitals, to the prejudice of their families. The scale was calculated upon the usual principles of the probabilities of life; and as to the effect it might have upon the morals of the public, it should be recollected, that the short annuities, which had lately fallen in, to the amount of 4 or 500,000
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Mr. Davies Giddy
spoke shortly, as nearly as we could collect from the low tone of voice in which he delivered his sentiments, rather in terms of approbation of the plan.
Sir John Newport
observed, that this plan certainly held out superior advantages to such as should be disposed to take advantage of it; and deprecated the holding out any inducements to the lower classes to speculate in annuities. The finances of France had been in an embarrassed State at the time of resorting to the
rentes
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viagères,
Mr. A. Baring
considered the statement of the chancellor of the exchequer perfectly clear but upon one point, the mode of calculating the value of lives. If the calculation was founded upon the tables of life, it would be a bad calculation for the public, because these tables were formed upon the ordinary probabilities of life, and the lives insured would be picked lives. He did not think the plan would succeed-to any extent, and he trusted it would not. A great part of the rise of the funds which had taken place since the last loan, had been produced by the stagnation of trade. The return of peace would, by giving other employment for capital, keep down the rise of the funds that would be produced by other causes. But, he apprehended that the funds would fall in consequence of a defalcation of revenue arising from the stagnation of trade. The plan upon which loans had hitherto been made in this country, was to procure them at a low rate of interest, and to give the individual the chance of the rise. Thus the burthen was laid upon posterity to relieve the present generation. The plan of the chancellor of the exchequer was the reverse, borrowing at five per cent. whereby we should have more interest to pay, and posterity less capital to redeem. He had not so sanguine a view of the state of the finances of the country as to think this change desirable.
Mr. W. Smith
could not abstain from bearing his testimony to the immoral tendency of this plan. In all cases where government profited by the vices of the country, it connived at them. Thus it was that it was easier to procure licences for all the ale-houses in the country than to suppress one; and to the profit government derived from the stamp duty upon them, it was owing that the country was so deluged with quack medicines. The same principle applied to all the mounte-
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The Chancellor of the Exchequer
thanked the hon. gentlemen opposite for the candid manner in which they had shewn their attention to the plan he had proposed. Gentlemen had talked of the immoral tendency of his plan, and of the effect it would have in changing the character of the country. They considered the purchase of annuities as a vice that ought to be put down. If parents purchased annuities for their own lives to the prejudice of their children, that, be admitted, would be wrong, and ought to be discountenanced. But would it not be proper for a parent to purchase an annuity for his child or for his widow, if the circumstances of his property would not admit of any other provision? It would be idle to provide small annuities, suppose for servants, or for a widow, on the security of land, when the expences of settlement, and perhaps of recovery, would lender the provision of no avail. No lure was to be held out to any description of persons; the calculations were founded upon the common principle, and there were every day much greater temptations held out without any security. Instead of having an immoral effect, the plan would afford an opportunity of acting upon the principles of humanity and good nature, in making a provision for friends. He should not be partial to the measure, if it would tend to alter the national character. But upon every consideration he could give it, he found the balance of good greatly preponderate over any evil that might be likely to arise from its operation. He had omitted to state, that one of the Resolutions contained the principle of the calculations, and the scale of purchases, and that they had been framed, not only upon the table of lives, but upon communication with those most intimate with such subjects. It had been said, that the plan would interfere with the operation of the Sinking Fund, but that must have been a mistake; because, if its operation were to amount to a million of annuity, the whole sum transferred for that would go to the commissioners, and add to the amount of the redeemed stock, whilst the amount of the Sinking Fund would be affected only to the small extent of the additional an-
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[LOCAL MILITIA BILL.]
Lord Castlereagh
Mr. Babington
, with a view to the more certain and efficient training of the people, proposed an amendment, rendering it compulsory to call out the quotas under the bill as speedily as may be.
Lord Castlereagh
thought it might be safely left to the discretion of government to carry the training into effect with all convenient speed. He, however, was, willing to accede to the hon. gent.'s proposition, with some verbal amendments.
Mr. Windham
thought the burthen of the training and regimenting too great to impose on the people till there was a prospect of its being wanted. It was the merit of the Training act, that it gave the power of calling out the people when they, should be wanted, and imposed no burthen in the intermediate time. If any hon. gentlemen were so much in love with the present measure, that, they wished it to be,-executed without delay, the best incentive was to indulge them with the enjoyment of the ballot as soon as possible.
Mr. G. Vansittart
thought so large a ballot as this measure required, would be intolerable and impracticable. He wished the lists to be made out, and the ballot to take place at the same time for the local and the general militia, in order to avoid the unnecessary repetition of the bustle and confusion attending that proceeding.—After some further observations, the Amendment was agreed to as modified on the suggestion of lord Castlereagh.
Sir James Montgomery
objected to the balloting plan of the noble lord, and proposed that the young men should be taken, from the age of 18 or 19, to that of 25; that they should be trained for 3 months the first year, and that the time in the; subsequent years should be diminished-as; they advanced in proficiency; that when they had passed the age of 25 they should be exempted from the service, so that the
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Lord Castlereagh
observed, that this would entirely destroy the system of quotas, and the hardship would fall very unequally on the counties, unless the hon. baronet meant that the whole of the volunteer establishment should be immediately abolished. This would, besides, be attended with difficulties in the execution, much hardship, and other disadvantages, to which he did not see it necessary at present to subject the country.
Mr. Windham
approved of neither of the plans; but of the two, the hon. baronet's was certainly preferable, as along with the burthen on the public it would be in some degree efficient, whereas the noble lord's would do nothing more than impose an useless burthen. The hon. baronet was for dissolving the volunteers. The noble lord was for wasting them by degrees; he was for drilling them, secundum artem: his object was to transfer them to the local militia; he intended to bribe them to come into this militia, and to induce the officers, by giving them rank, to bribe the men to accompany them. This was his mode of proceeding with those to whom he had so often said he was willing to trust the fate of the country: why did he not trust them now? He had within 50,000 of all that he had before of volunteers. But the noble lord was obliged to have recourse to this transfer, and to adopt some of the very methods he had so loudly condemned, and all this after the calumnies which he had propagated against the proceedings of the late administration on this subject. He did not at all approve of the method of training proposed by either of the plans. It was impossible to train the people, so as to bring them in regiments against the enemy, under officers as ignorant as themselves. What he had proposed was to teach them the mere elements, to handle their arms and to fire powder. But his great object was to have them enrolled, so that they might be called upon, in case of emergency, to join the regular troops under experienced officers.
Colonel Foley
thought this a very fair bill, as it went to call upon those counties
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Lord Castlereagh
mentioned, that he intended to propose that there should be an instruction to volunteer corps that were full, to admit as supernumeraries persons who chose to pay half the fine, and go into a volunteer corps, in order to be exempted from this service.
Mr. Windham
observed that this was forcing into volunteer corps those who were no volunteers.
Mr. C. Wynne
rather approved the bill, so far as it went; for a more permanent force than the volunteers was necessary. Yet he would have prefered a conscription of the young men from 18 to 25 to the method of ballot. A conscription, he affirmed, would be much more efficacious and less distressing than the ballot, for the duty would then be certain and unavoidable, whereas the system of ballot was attended with the most tormenting anxiety and uncertainty, and was calculated to introduce a system of perjury, that would be of the most calamitous consequences to the country.
The Secretary at War
observed, that on that plan, all ranks must be confounded, and this would be felt as an intolerable grievance. The present mode of exempting persons, by fine and service in volunteers, would have the effect of bringing into the local militia those who were most fit for such a situation.
Mr. Wynne
observed, that he had meant that the volunteers should be open to those who chose to serve in that way.
Mr. Wilberforce
thought that the hon. baronet's plan was preferable, and he was sorry the principle had not been acted upon as it had been detailed by a noble writer (lord Selkirk). But the amendment proposed by the hon. baronet would go to change the principle of the present bill, and could not, he apprehended, be adopted in the committee. He must, therefore, oppose it as being brought forward at ah improper period. If, however, it should be proposed at a time when he could, consistently with the usages of the house, support it, he would do so, for he was convinced it would, more than any other plan, give security to the country, and contribute to the restoration of peace.
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HOUSE OF LORDS.
Monday, May 16, 1808.
[INDICTMENT BILL.]
The Lord Chancellor
, upon the motion for the second reading of this bill, intimated, that many noble lords had been under a mistake, respecting the day appointed for its discussion, having understood that it would take place on Wednesday; and as it was a bill of great importance, he trusted their lordships would agree with him in the propriety of discharging the order as it then stood, in order that it might take place on Wednesday.
Earl Stanhope
. My lords, I perfectly agree with the noble and learned lord that this bill is a measure of the greatest importance, and that it would be proper that the discussion be deferred till Wednesday, but then I earnestly implore that those noble lords will attend on that day. I should also have concurred with that noble and learned lord, if he had further said, that there never was a more infamous bill brought up from the house of commons, for it has a tendency to destroy the Trial by Jury; nay worse, to render that trial ridiculous.—The motion was agreed to.
HOUSE OF COMMONS.
Monday, May 16, 1808.
[FIRST FRUITS IN IRELAND.]
Sir John Newport
rose, in pursuance of his notice, to move for leave to bring in a Bill for the more equal valuation of the revenue of the First Fruits in Ireland, and for the due collection thereof. In doing this, the right hon. gent. took occasion to state the grounds upon which he proceeded. By the Returns made by the Archbishop of Cashel, the whole annual amount of the First Fruits at present collected was merely 350
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Sir A. Wellesley
opposed the motion, He said he believed the valuation that now existed had taken place in the reign of Henry 8, and one great consideration now was, whether the clergy were not in general already sufficiently provided for? He thought, at least, that there were many already sufficiently provided for, while others were not so; but the measure now proposed would go to benefit them all equally. It was true that many of the clergy did not pay the First Fruits, but the inequality in that instance was so exceedingly small, that it was not worth while to alter the valuation; the more especially as there were other funds for enlarging glebe houses in Ireland; and the sum now proposed to be granted in addition for that purpose, not being very large, he believed the house would think with him, that there was no ground for agreeing to this bill.
Mr. C. Wynne
said, he certainly thought the object of the proposed bill was of such a nature, that every one ought to agree to it. The right hon. general did not deny
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Mr Foster
said, that the proposed bill would go to tax the clergy between 20,000
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Mr Horner
said, he owned he felt much surprise at the opposition that had been made to this measure, the more especially when it was made upon a motion merely to bring in the bill. After the discussions that had already taken place in that house upon measures brought forward by the chancellor of the exchequer to encourage the residence of the clergy in England, he could not help thinking it was equally desirable to encourage that residence in Ireland. Gentlemen appeared to oppose this bill upon wrong principles and misstatements, as the object of it was not, as
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Dr. Duigenan
opposed the measure. He insisted that the bill went to raise a revenue out of the pockets of the clergy of Ireland, under the idea that it would promote their interest, by first taxing them in order to procure the fund. The churches of Ireland and of England were declared to be one and indivisible, and therefore why put the clergy of Ireland upon a different footing from those in England? If there were to be any new valuation, it ought to extend to England as well as to Ireland. A bill similar to this one had been proposed in the house of lords some years ago, by a great and eminent prelate, but it was soon quashed. It would reduce the clergy in Ireland, great and small of them, to the greatest distress, if such a bill as this passed the house. It would be a charge almost insupportable, as a poor man would be nearly 3 years before he could reap any benefit from the glebe house he might have erected. Although those who opposed this measure were alledged to be wrong in point of law, yet he could inform its supporters, that it was formerly complained of as a great grievance, when Henry 8 abolished the Pope's power in this country, a new valuation of the First Fruits was made for the king's benefit. Nevertheless this fund was not the property of the crown at all; so that neither the keeper of the great seal, nor the master of the rolls, could at all exercise any controul over it. It was a fund purely belonging to the poorer
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Mr. Ponsonby
said, that it was quite an erroneous statement to say that this measure was to raise a tax upon the clergy to the amount of 30,000
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The Chancellor of the Exchequer
observed, that he was by no means inclined to retract or to qualify any one opinion which he had advanced in the support of the measure (the Stipendiary Curates' bill) to
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Mr. Maurice Fitzgerald
(Knight of Kerry) advised the chancellor of the exchequer to pause before he rejected a measure which, if refused, must lead to a full investigation of the state in which the Irish church was. placed. He proved, from an historical review, that the act of Queen Anne, by which the fund of first fruits were made available to the erection of glebe houses, and to the promotion of pious purposes, had been received by the clergy of that age as a great boon; so much so, that there existed a great competition with respect to the organ through which they should convey their thanks to the throne. There was no man who so well knew the necessity for the proposed measure as the learned doctor. He knew the deficiency of glebe houses in Ireland, and that such deficiency was, at all visitations, the pretext and excuse for the non-residence of the clergy. Was the house only to recognize this doctrine, that whilst the unhappy peasant of Ireland was oppressed with burdens and extreme taxation, the great, enormous, and lucrative incomes of the clergy, were not to pay any proportion, even to the support of the poor of their own order? The livings in Ireland had been united for political purposes; indeed, their object appeared to be rather to procure situations for political partisans, in place of provisions for religious pastors, and the diminutions of the Protestants in that country was principally to be attributed to that system of policy. He concluded by assuring the house, that the refusal of the present measure would provoke a discussion, which would perhaps be not the most serviceable to the interests of the Church establishment in Ireland.
Sir John Newport
replied to the objections of those who opposed his motion. He wished to know upon what grounds the house could refuse a measure, which only went to make a fund, fixed by parliamentary enactment, for the purpose of building glebe-houses in Ireland, avaliable to the import of the statute of queen Anne,
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The house then divided on the motion for leave to bring in the bill, when the numbers were: Ayes 50; Noes 67; Majority against the motion 17.
[EXPEDITION TO THE DARDANELLES.]
Colonel Wood
rose to offer to the house the motion on the subject of the Log Book of the Royal George, while in the Dardanelles, which motion he had deferred from a former night. The house had already on its table the Instructions of the Admiralty to lord Collingwood; and also the Instructions of lord Collingwood to sir John Duckworth, directing that not more than half an hour should be consumed in negociating with the Porte. Sir John Duckworth, in his letter of the 6th March, alledged in excuse for his non-compliance with these orders, the contrary state of the winds, which would not permit him to come close to the city of Constantinople. It was essential to a just investigation of the causes of the failure of the Expedition, to have full and particular evidence on all the facts bearing upon it, and with this view he moved, That there be laid before the house, a copy of the journal or logbook of the Royal George, capt. Dunn (sir J. Duckworth's flag-ship), from the 19th Feb. the day she entered the Dardanelles, to the 22d Feb. both inclusive.
Admiral Hervey
had communicated the substance of this motion to sir John Duckworth, who with the manliness that always distinguishes him, was only anxious that the
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Colonel Wood.
At the time, sir, when I gave notice of my intention to move to be laid on the table of the house, an extract of the journal of one of his majesty's ships, whilst employed upon the Expedition against Constantinople, during the very short period of four days, it was impossible for me to foresee, that there could be, from any quarter, the smallest objection for the production of this paper, but more particularly from the quarter from whence the objection has since come. We were called upon to consider and to determine upon the failure of one of the most important Expeditions that ever sailed from England, and in comparison with the success of which, the loss of every ship of the squadron would have been a trifling and inconsiderable national calamity. Upon the success of this expedition hung suspended the fate of not only Russia, but of England, and of the whole civilized world. Immediately after the passing of the Dardanelles, had our fleet carried the intelligence of this exploit, as well as of the destruction of the Turkish fleet, to Constantinople, within 12 hours after it had happened, (which, from every information I have been able to obtain, I am of opinion, might easily have been done), the confusion and consternation would have been so great, that I am satisfied the English admiral might have prescribed any terms he pleased. The delivering up of Sebastiani, the occupation of the forts of the Dardanelles, and the renewal of the ancient alliance betwixt England and the Ottoman Porte, I am satisfied, would not only have been the immediate consequence, but the Russians and Turks would once more have been friends, and general Michelson, with 60,000 Russians, have been set at liberty, and have been enabled to have taken part in the battles of Friedland and Eylau, which decided the fate of Europe. This country, in place of being, as at present, shut out from every port of the Turkish empire, would have had the aid and intercourse of upwards of 30 millions of people, which would, in some measure, have com-
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Admiral Hervey
in explanation, expressed the greatest readiness to give facility to the examination of the charge preferred, which was in substance, that he had not, under all the circumstances, made the sort of attack he ought to have made. He had no doubt that the gallant admiral would be found to have done his duty to the utmost, on that, as on every other occasion.
Mr. Yorke
expressed great unwillingness to have these papers laid before the house. Though he did not doubt that those who proposed such investigations, were actuated always by patriotic motives, he did not think it right to institute inquiries into the conduct of naval and military commanders in that house in the first instance. If there was ground for a charge of neglect of duty in any case, the proper course was to represent the matter to the admiralty; and if the charge appeared founded, it would be brought to trial before the proper tribunal, a court martial. He expressed a high respect for sir John
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[MR. PALMER'S CLAIM.]
Mr. Wharton
brought up the Report of the Committee of the whole House on the Claim of Mr. Palmer. It was read a first time. On the motion for the second reading,
Mr. Bankes
rose. He said he should ill discharge his duty, as one of the guardians of the public purse, if he did not declare that, in his judgment, the present was one of the most extraordinary and unjust grants of the public money he had ever witnessed. He was convinced the house had been surprised into the vote they had given. There were many opportunities, however, still remaining for a reconsideration of the question, which he hoped would not be omitted. He thought the present occasion would convince his right hon. friend opposite (the Chancellor of the Exchequer) of the impropriety, as his majesty's concurrence was required where grants of public money were applied for, of lending that concurrence in cases where he was convinced that no claim ought to be sustained. He was by no means convinced, that any bargain had ever been entered into; and on this head, he thought the house was equally bound to take the word of Mr. Pitt as of Mr. Palmer. But, supposing there had been such a bargain, and it was proved that Mr. Palmer had been guilty of the charges laid against him, and, on account of which, his situation had been forfeited, he asked, if it was possible to maintain that his misconduct had not divested him of the emolument as well as of the office? Though he did consider Mr. Palmer as having been a useful servant to the public, yet he was of opinion he was already sufficiently recompensed, and he should therefore resist the present unjustifiable and extravagant demand.
Mr. Windham.
It seems desirable that previous to any remark on the subject before us, notice should be taken of an opinion which, however foreign from the merits of the question, may have considerable share in influencing the decision of it: namely, that this is a question on which those who vote on one side or the other may be considered as voting on principles of party. On what grounds this idea should be taken up, or how the ministers should be fond of countenancing it,
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Mr. Fuller
strongly supported the Resolution, and compared the conduct of Mr. Palmer's Deputy, who had revealed his confidential correspondence, to that of Judas Iscariot, who sold his master.
Mr. Rose
was of opinion, that this was the most exceptionable demand he ever knew. If the house agreed to the Report, they would reward a public officer for great and manifold misconduct. In the year 1799, the question had been decided against Mr. Palmer, by a majority of 112 to 28; but now, without any additional evidence on the subject, the house were called upon to do that, which would shake their honour and character more than any thing within his recollection.
Mr. Stuart Wortley
said, that major Palmer's powers of persuasion had, on a former evening, made him a proselyte; but that, on a better understanding of the case, he now came prepared to make his retrac-
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Mr. Long
complained that very few questions had been put to him by the Committee, though it was in his power to throw considerable light upon the subject; and contended that the percentage on the Revenue of the Post Office was granted to Mr. Palmer only during his continuance in office.
Sir Tho. Turton
—After the very ample investigation which this subject underwent upon a former evening, and the decided sentiment which the house by a very large majority then expressed upon its merits, I little expected to find the discussion revived upon the present occasion with an increase of acrimony, yet without any addition of argument.—I can assure the House that unlike the hon. member behind me (Mr. Stuart Wortley) I rise not to avow myself a proselyte to any argument I have heard either within or without doors, or to express my repentance for having given a vote on a preceding night, in favour of the just claims of a meritorious individual, which the house in its justice, and to its eternal honour, has recognized.—Sir, I was much surprised to hear the hon. gentleman state, that Mr. Palmer's powers of persuasion had made him a proselyte, but that on a better understanding of the case, he came prepared to make his retraction.—Sir, I shrewdly suspect that the authors of the hon. gent.'s proselytism are not far off, and that their arguments, too often irresistibly persuasive, have made him a proselyte from the truth and justice of the case; but I care little by what cause this effect has been produced, sure I am, it will not be general amongst those who come to discharge their duty without respect of persons, and of such I am satisfied the maj6rity on a former night were composed. Sir, I must confess I did not expect to hear myself, in common with two thirds of the house, stigmatized with gross ignorance and mistake in the discharge of my public duty, and formally put upon my defence, for a vote which I had given conscientiously and according to the best dictates of my judgment. The
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Lord Milton
was surprised at the inconsistencies of the gentlemen on the opposite side; for instead of arguing on the bargain, which they all admitted, they flew to the misconduct of Mr. Palmer while in office. The impropriety of Mr. Palmer's conduct in office he was not a supporter of, but he would submit, that the conduct in office had nothing to do with the original bargain, and ought not to interfere with the present question. Why did they not meet it when it was before the house for the first time, and put a stamp on it? That would have shewn the public Mr. Palmer had no claim; but instead of doing so they gave it a half assent, a half dissent, and at last threw it by and got rid of it by moving the previous question. There had been a vast deal of obloquy thrown on the Report of the Committee; he saw no argument adduced to warrant it. He believed the Committee consisted of as honourable and as good men, without exception, as the house could produce. He could not pass over the subject without saying, that the Committee had been hardly used.
Mr. Sturges Bourne
argued, that the opinion of the Committee was not entitled to much credit, because the evidence upon which that opinion was formed was not given; and that the question having been
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Sir Francis Burdett.
—Sir, I have examined the merits of this case, and bestowed the greatest attention upon every argument brought forward, both for and against Mr. Palmer's Claims: and so far from their having shaken, they have confirmed the opinion that I before entertained, of the justness of Mr. Palmer's demands.—Sir, when I observe, upon the one hand, the greatness of the benefits, and remark upon, the other, the smallness of the craved reward, I really am astonished that ministers should hesitate for a single instant to comply with Claims founded on an undeniable contract, and supported by services, which have exceeded the most sanguine hopes.—But, sir, I must at the same time, congratulate his majesty's ministers on the acquisition of a virtue, of which I never before observed in them the least trait. And I shall be extremely happy if they remain under its influence on future occasions, instead of pensioning worthless objects, who have done their country far more harm than good. I scarcely know how to answer the arguments of the right hon. gentlemen on the opposite side, for they so perpetually shift their ground and change their position, that it is almost impossible to ascertain where they intend to make a stand. First, it is a bargain, then it is not a bargain; and after all they seem doubtful, whether this is a bargain, or a remuneration. Now, I think it immaterial which it is, for if it is a contract, beyond a doubt it should be performed; and if it is a remuneration, surely 50 shillings cannot be considered too much to give a man, who gives you 100 pounds. Here the public has, and is receiving profits to the amount of millions! For this stupendous engine is at this moment actually in motion, and will be so as long as the kingdom shall exist; and while it does, it's benefits must increase. For the numerous and incalculable advantages arising from this plan, I think the country can hardly ever make an adequate return to Mr. Palmer; for the fatigue, anxiety, disappointment, and loss of health he has suffered, they never can, I am certain.—Sir, I am not in general very ready to place implicit confidence in the Reports of Committees; but when I consider the impartial and able gentlemen that composed it, and that Mr. Palmer could have no influence over them, besides
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Mr. Holford
defended Mr. Pitt's bargain, and contended that if that great man had felt it to be improvident, he never would have shrunk from acknowledging it.
Mr. Marryat
contended, that the agreement between Mr. Palmer and the public had been cancelled by the very improper conduct of Mr. Palmer in office. It was his opinion, that the Revenue having materially suffered by Mr. P.'s dismissal, was an argument against him, and that he ought to suffer by the loss.
Mr. Sumner
dwelt upon the imperfect evidence of the report; and moved that the debate be adjourned till to morrow se'nnight, with a view to refer it back to the committee, with an instruction to the committee to take further evidence. The house divided: the numbers were,
For the Adjournment
87
Against it
137
Majority
—50
300
The Speaker
informed the house, that it appeared to him, that the regular mode of proceeding would be for the accounts of the Net Proceeds of the Post Office Revenue up to the present period to be laid before the house; the amount of money which was to be paid to Mr. Palmer, as a remuneration for the time past, could then be ascertained from those documents, and voted in a Committee of Supply. The consideration of the annual sum which the house might think fit to order to be paid in future, must also, he believed, originate in a Committee of Supply. When a Resolution was agreed to on that subject, a bill might afterwards be brought into the house pointing out the fund from which it was to be taken, and legalizing a particular course of distribution or appropriation as usual in similar cases.—The Accounts were then ordered to be laid before the house. After which the Report was agreed to, and Mr. Palmer proposed, that on Friday next the subject should be referred to a Committee of Supply.
HOUSE OF LORDS.
Tuesday, May 17, 1808.
DANISH MERCHANT SHIPS DETAINED IN
The order of the day having been read,
Lord Sidmouth
said, that he was at length enabled to submit to their lordships' consideration a subject highly important to the interests of many individuals, both foreigners and natives, as well as to the honour and reputation of the country.—But before he entered upon the details to which it would be necessary for him to call the attention of their lordships, he was desirous of being understood, as having no intention to re-agitate a question, which had been already decided; much less to aim at rescinding a judgment, which had been solemnly pronounced: for that in fact, between the merits of the subject to which he particularly referred, namely, the Attack on Copenhagen, and of that then before the house, there was no necessary connection; and all he had to ask, (and he assured their lordships that what he asked of them should be observed on his part,) was that the opinions entertained on this point, might be kept in their proper place, and not brought forward to bear upon arguments, and conclusions, to which they had no direct or regular application.—It could not, he said, be denied, that according to the principles of natural
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eundo, morando, et redeundo,
in re minimè dubiâ,
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The Lord Chancellor
contended, that the real question before the house was not with respect to those principles of justice alluded to by the noble lord, but with respect to their application, under certain circumstances; it being quite clear to his mind, that there were circumstances under which the application of those principles must be very different to what it would be under other circumstances. With respect to the opinion of those eminent men whom the noble lord had quoted, it was quite clear that it was not the opinion upon which the state had acted, as in the year 1761 a diametrically opposite doctrine was held, and this country would not subsequently make peace with France until she gave up the demand that no vessels should be considered as captures which were taken previous to hostilities, or the issuing of reprisals. With respect also to the opinion of sir W. Wynne, a decision of the court of admiralty in 1779, was in direct opposition to it. An article upon this subject was formerly inserted in the several treaties, and from forming part of the conventional law of nations, had been confounded with the unwritten law. There could be no doubt, however, that as the law stood, all enemy's property was forfeited to the crown; a vessel therefore detained, although at the time there might be no reason for the detention, yet from the circumstances of hostilities commencing, became forfeited to the crown. This might operate as a hard case in many instances upon individuals: but he had great doubts that there could be any thing like a commercial peace and a political war at the same time; he thought such a system, and the
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Lord Erskine
admitted that the vessels detained must be forfeited to the crown as enemy's property, and that the court of admiralty could give no relief; but that was no reason why the crown Could not give relief. On the contrary, that was the very object of his noble friend's proposition in this case, to address the crown, with the view of relieving those who had suffered from the application of this principle of law. This proposition had his full and entire approbation, and those who combated it must shew that there was an actual necessity for detaining and keeping these trading vessels; otherwise the owners were entitled in justice to a compensation.
Lord Hawkesbury
contended, that neither the noble viscount, nor the noble and learned lord, had proved that there was any departure in this instance from the usage and practice with respect to other nations, or that, being consistent with such practice and usage, there was any injustice committed. There could not be any doubt as to the law, that enemy's' property was forfeited to the crown, and therefore, that detained vessels in the event of the commencement of hostilities became forfeited.
Lord Ellenborough
said, the motion of his noble friend did not go to ask a favour of his majesty, in surrendering any thing to which he was entitled
jure coroœ;
Earl Stanhope
could not avoid making some observations upon the question before the house. His lordship proceeded to quote different passages from Magna Charta, as to the kindness and hospitality to be exercised by the people of this country towards strangers trading towards our coasts; and comparing these passages, and the inducements held out to the Danes to consider the amicable relations between them and this country secure, asked, if our afterwards seizing, as
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The Earl of Lauderdale
pressed upon the consideration of the house, the peculiar claim which the Danes had upon our performing some act of remuneration for the losses which they had suffered. They had been particularly impressed with the good faith of this country, and entertained a strong sense of its honour and integrity. By no other means could any people in their situation have been led to send their ships to the ports of England. G. Britain had hitherto been celebrated for her love of justice, her honour, and her sincerity; in this disposition the Danish merchants unwarily confided, and were ruined.—The house then divided on the question, that lord Sidmouth's motion be now put: Contents, 16; Non-contents, 36. Majority, 20.—And, on the fourth Resolution, another division took place: Contents, 16; Non-contents, 37. Majority. 21.
HOUSE OF COMMONS.
Tuesday, May 17, 1808.
[CONDUCT OF MARQUIS WELLESLEY—
Sir Thomas Turton
rose to move his promised Resolutions respecting the deposition of the nabob of the Carnatic. He began by requesting the indulgence of the house, unconnected as he was with any party, and unsupported by any influence except what might be expected from the strength of the cause. Before he had become a member of the house, his attention had been turned to the subject by different motions for papers which had been made, and he was then anxious that the matter should be thoroughly investigated; feeling, in common with many others, for the honour and good faith of the country. When he come into parliament, he found the question still floating, and did every thing in his power to induce some other member to bring it forward, preferring to be the seconder rather than the mover: no choice, how-fiver, was left him. The right hon. gent. (Mr. Sheridan) to whom he had particularly looked, had found himself in circumstances that prevented his urging the question, as it might have much embarrassed those with whom he acted. He had no
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in foro conscientiœ,
tali auxilio, defensoribus istis,
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Mr. Wallace
rose and began by saying—In offering myself to your attention, Mr. Speaker, for the purpose of objecting to the Resolutions proposed, and taking a view of the event to which they relate, essentially differing from that stated by the hon. baronet who has just sat down, I may be permitted to express some degree of surprise, arising from the period at which this subject is now submitted to the consideration of the house. If the transaction in question be of the nature described in the speech we have just heard;—if the epithets of foul and atrocious, which have been repeatedly applied to it, have been justly applied;—if it does indeed, as vitally as it is said to do, involve the faith, the justice, and the character of the country;—if it is not brought forward rather for the distinction of an individual, than as a necessary vindication of the national honour;—it is surely a matter of just astonishment, that it should not be till after the sixth year from the time it was first brought under the notice of this house,—that it should not be till after every document elucidating it has been printed and reprinted for the consideration of three successive parliaments—that we are at length arrived at this long looked for discussion. I do not mean to accuse the hon. baronet: it is only for a comparatively short part of that period he has had a seat in this house, and I must do him the justice to say, that since he has undertaken the business, I am not aware of its having been delayed a single hour on the ground of his personal convenience;—but if there are those who concur in his impressions, who are prepared to manifest that concurrence by their votes this night, and who have enjoyed opportunities which he has not possessed, of appealing to the judgment of parliament,—it will become them, nay, sir, they owe it to themselves, to this house, and to their country, to repel, if they can, the charge of such a dereliction of their public duty, as irresistibly results from their having endured, for so long a period, a stain so foul to disgrace the British name—from having left the national faith and justice, six long years, wounded, impeached, dishonoured, and, as far as de-
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!Tenth article of Treaty of 1792.—"The said Nawaub shall receive regular information of all negociations which shall relate to declaring war or to making peace, wherein the said Company may engage, and the interest of the Carnatic and its dependencies may be concerned; and the said Nawaub shall be considered as an ally of the said Company in all treaties which shall in any respect affect the Carnatic, and countries depending thereon, or belonging to either of the contracting parties contiguous thereto; and the said Nawaub agrees that he will not enter into any negociation or political correspon-
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dence with any European or native power, without the consent of the said Company."
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lateritiam invenit marmoream reliquit.
Lord Archibald Hamilton
contended, that the nabob's father and grand-father had lived and died in amity with the British government, and that by the treaty of 1792, the nabob was not precluded from any but a political association, or correspondence with the native powers. No one act of hostility had been committed by the nabob, nor had he been proved in any instance to have violated his engagements with the company. He could not agree in
373
Colonel Allan
felt that, having on a former night ventured to state his opinion upon a question of a nature similar to that which was now brought before, the house, (the Oude Charge,) he should not discharge his duty with satisfaction to his own mind, were he to be silent upon a motion that related to transactions, which took place in the Carnatic, where he resided for an uninterrupted period of 20 years; having, in the course of that time, also, held a confidential situation under his noble friend lord Buckinghamshire, during the whole of his administration in India, he had opportunities of knowing many of the facts, which were stated in the papers before the house. As the nabob of Arcot had never wanted advocates (as they had witnessed even that night,) to assert that he was an independent sovereign, and as many hon. members might not have had leisure or inclination to peruse the papers laid before parliament upon this subject, he wished shortly to draw the attention of the house to the origin of our connection with Mahomed Ally, and to the founda-
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Mr. Windham
, on account of the lateness of the hour, and the number of hon. mem-
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HOUSE OF COMMONS.
Wednesday, May 18, 1808.
[PETITIONS RESPECTING THE REPORT
Mr. Gooch
presented a Petition from several owners and occupiers of lands resident in the county of Suffolk; setting forth, "That the petitioners are many of them owners, but the greater part of them occupiers of lands in a county where barley is the chief article of cultivation; and that it is with concern they learn that a Committee of the house has in its Report recommended the substitution of Sugar and Molasses, instead of barley and other grain, in the distilleries, which must be highly injurious to the agricultural interest of the country; and that the petitioners had trusted that the satisfactory and unanswerable reasons assigned by a committee of the house last year against the adoption of such an expedient would have set at rest its further agitation, and quieted the alarm it is fully calculated to produce; should the farmer be deprived of the certain market the distilleries afford, even for a time to be limited, it must tend to lower the price of grain, and damp the increasing spirit of agriculture; and that the petitioners, however strongly they may feel the distresses and the difficulties under which the West India trade at present labours, however anxious they may be for the adoption of any measure for its relief, still they cannot perceive that either justice, policy, or necessity requires that such relief should be administered to them at the sole and exclusive expence of the land, being a sacrifice of the more important interests of agriculture; and therefore praying the house not to allow such a bill to pass into a law."
Mr. Campbell
presented a Petition from the lord provost, magistrates, and common council of the city of Glasgow; setting forth, "That the petitioners feel themselves called upon, at this interesting crisis, to express to the house their unqualified approbation of the proposal lately made in parliament for the temporary suspension of Distillation from Grain; the present relations of these kingdoms with the other nations of the world, the large quantities of grain which it is well known this coun-
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General Tarleton
presented a Petition of the mayor, bailiffs, and burgesses of the town of Liverpool, in council assembled, setting forth, "That the petitioners have seen, with feelings of considerable regret, advertisements for meetings in several parts of the kingdom, for the purpose of agreeing to petitions against the measure recommended by a committee of the house for a temporary suspension of the use of grain in the Distilleries, as calculated to prove injurious to the agricultural interest of the country; and that, in the present state of our foreign relations, whilst so many of the ports of Europe are closed against us, rendering it impossible to procure a supply of corn from the continent of Europe, whilst in addition to this, the embargo which has taken place in the united states of America precludes us from obtaining any importations from thence, and whilst it remains an undisputed fact that this country has for many years past been dependant upon foreign supply for a considerable part of the subsistence of her inhabitants, more particularly in the populous town of Liverpool and county of Lancaster, the petitioners cannot but think it a measure of wise and prudent precaution to prevent the unnecessary consumption of the produce of our own soil, and, by a well-timed restriction, to guard against an evil of so great magnitude as must result from the failure of the usual means of supply; and therefore praying, that the house may proceed in the proposed measure to suspend the use of grain in the distilleries of the united kingdom, for such period, and under such restrictions, as to the house shall seem most proper and expedient"—The said Petitions were severally read and ordered to lie upon the table.
[MR. PALMER'S CLAIM.]
Mr. Lethbridge
presented to the house, pursuant to their
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Sir John Sinclair
objected to the word "due" in the motion.
The Speaker
informed the hon. baronet that the house had declared it "was due."
[CRIMINAL LAW.]
Sir Samuel Romilly
rose to make the motion of which he had given notice, for some amendments of the Criminal Law. He was aware that from part of the public, and particularly that part of it whose opinion might be supposed to have most influence upon his conduct, a person who had such amendments to propose could hardly expect praise, but must consider it enough if he meets with excuse. His apology must be, that he had not taken up the matter lightly or on a sudden; that the subject which he presumed to bring before the house, was one which had occupied his thoughts for many years of his life. He had long ago promised himself, that if ever he should have the honour of a seat in this house, he would bring forward some measures for reforming the criminal law; and recollecting this, he could not but feel that he ought rather to apologise for having delayed the proposal so long, than for bringing it forward now.—In the criminal law of this country, he had always considered it as a very great defect, that capital punishments were so frequent; and were appointed, he could not say inflicted, for so many crimes. No principle could be more clear, than that it is the certainty, much more than the severity of punishments, which renders them efficacious. This had been acknowledged ever since the publication of the works of the marquis Beccaria; and he had heard, he could not himself remember it, that upon the first appearance of that Work it produced a very great effect in this country. The impression, however, had hitherto proved unavailing; for it has not in this country, in a single instance, produced any alteration of the criminal law; although in some other states of
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Mr. Herbert
said, he was one of those who approved of the laws, and he thought that very good grounds ought to be laid down before any innovation was made upon them. He disapproved, in particular, of the proposal for making compensation to persons who had been tried and acquitted. He suspected that, in Ireland, many indolent persons would reckon it no hardship to be confined in a comfortable prison.
Mr. Wilberforce
differed so completely from the hon. gent. who had just sat down, that he declared he had experienced the most unmixed satisfaction at what had fallen from the hon. and learned baronet. He well remembered that a great and la-
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Sir John Newport
said, he could not help expressing surprise at what an hon. gent. (Mr. Herbert) had stated as to Ireland. He was at a loss to know in what part of Ireland the prisons were so comfortable, as to prove an inducement, to indolent persons wishing a confinement. He believed the gaols were so far from being commodious, that they rather excited horror and detestation, and many instances had occurred where men's toes were eaten by rats: was this the accommodation the hon. gent, thought so agreeable as to be prized by the Irish people?
Mr. Herbert
, in explanation, said, he still believed there were many persons who led a life of idleness, who would think themselves well accommodated in the gaols of Ireland.
Sir G. Hill
contended, that in Ireland, and particularly in the province of Ulster, there was as much humanity on these subjects as in England.
The Solicitor General
, professing, as he felt, the most unfeigned respect for the ability and zeal of his hon. and learned friend, who brought forward the present motion, was by no means satisfied that it would produce the benefit expected from it. He was not, indeed, prepared to say whether the good or evil it might produce was likely to preponderate. In this situation he should only lay in his claim to approve or disapprove of the measure, as, on more mature reflection, he, should be of opinion it merited. Whether the attempt to grant compensation to persons acquitted of offences imputed to them, might not be productive of greater evil than good, was not now the question. He was certainly inclined to think, that however plausible the theory, the practice would be very injurious.
Sir Francis Burdett
felt himself bound to pay the tribute of his testimony and approbation to the ability and motives of the hon. and learned baronet, by whom this
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Sir Samuel Romilly
then again rose. He was sorry that he had been so much misunderstood by the hon. baronet, who seemed to conceive that, in the motion which he was about to submit to the house, any thing was included but the general question, whether persons accused, tried, and acquitted, should or should not be entitled to compensation for the injury which they sustained. The mode of deciding to whom this compensation should be awarded, or whether it should be given to all indiscriminately (which he should prefer to withholding it from all) would be open for discussion when the bill was brought in. He moved for leave to bring in a bill to provide in certain cases compensation to persons tried and acquitted in a criminal court, for the damages sustained by them, in consequence of having been detained in custody and brought to trial.
The Solicitor General
repeated, that in the view which he had of the subject, the evil would preponderate over the good. If the judge refused to give compensation, it would be indicative of the unfavourable opinion which he entertained of the innocence of the person by whom it was demanded; and he would thus be placed in a very invidious situation. Besides, suppose a person were acquitted on an error in the indictment before the merits of his
403
Sir Samuel Romilly
declared his surprise that his hon. and learned friend should resist the introduction of a bill, of the provisions of which he must necessarily be ignorant. With respect to the proposition being a novelty, it was to be regretted that there had not been more novelties of a similar description.
Mr. Leycester
said a few words, in the course of which he expressed a wish, that his hon. and learned friend would withdraw his opposition to the introduction of the bill.
The Solicitor
General acquiesced.
Mr. Croker
entered his protest against being thought favourable to the principle of the bill, because he did not oppose its introduction.
Mr. Curwen
approved of the measure.
Sir F. Burdett
would certainly not oppose the bringing in of the bill.
The Chancellor of the Exchequer
also declared that he would not resist the introduction of the bill, although he wished that the hon. and learned baronet had stated more fully the grounds on which he proposed it, and the provisions which he meant that it should comprise. He was of opinion that the remedy proposed would be more injurious than the evil complained oil
Mr. Fuller
was afraid that by the introduction of such complicated arrangements, people would be so puzzled that they would not understand the law at all.
Mr. Shaw Lefevre
applauded the humanity of the hon. and learned baronet, but hoped he would pardon him for stating that county stock ought not to be touched except in extreme cases.
Mr. W. Smith
defended his hon. and learned friend from the charge of innovation. As to the measure being a novelty, every improvement was a novelty.—Leave was then given to bring in the bill.
[LORD ELLENBOROUGH.]
Mr. Leycester
, adverting to the statement made on a
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Mr. W. Smith
spoke to order. Unless the hon. gent. meant to conclude with some motion, his observations were very irregular.
Mr. Leycester
was not prepared to make any motion; but as the hon. baronet had made his statement, he trusted they would allow him to make a counter statement, under the same circumstances. He was proceeding, when he was again called to order by
Mr. W. Smith
, who observed, that unless the hon. gent, would move for some paper, such observations could only lead to disorderly discussion.
Mr. Leycester
then stated, that he would conclude by moving for the production of an order of the court of king's bench, for the discharge of a rule moved for in that court for a new trial in the action brought by the high bailiff of Westminster against sir Francis Burdett.—On the suggestion of the Speaker, however, who intimated that it was usual to give a formal notice of such a motion, Mr. Leycester abstained from any further remarks, and gave notice, that he would move for the production of this paper to-morrow.
[SUGAR DISTILLATION.]
Lord Binning
was desirous of postponing his motion for taking into consideration the Report of the committee on the distillation of spirits, until to-morrow, if an hon. gent. whose notice stood for to-morrow, would consent to put it off.
Mr. W. Taylor
replied, that he had been that morning applied to, to postpone his motion to-morrow, relative to the Dardanelles, for the purpose of allowing the Local Militia bill to be proceeded with.
405
Mr. Windham
reprobated this sort of hocus pocus by which the house was kept ignorant of what business would come before it. If the arrangement that seemed to have been made was carried into effect, then it would happen that the gentlemen who came down that night to listen to a discussion on the distilleries, would find themselves engaged in a debate on the local militia; and that to-morrow, those who would come to debate the Local Militia bill, would be surprised at finding themselves in a distillery.
The Chancellor of the Exchequer
denied that there was any thing more in this circumstance than what frequently occurred, namely, that when the first notice on the order book was not proceeded with, the next was taken in its stead.
Lord H. Petty
observed, that some disappointment must certainly exist in consequence of the postponement of the noble lord's motion; the more so, as in giving the notice on Monday, the noble lord had declared that the motion would certainly come on this day. With respect to the motion which stood for to-morrow, it related to a subject, the investigation of which it was most desirable no longer to defer.
Mr. Barham
, after an eulogium on the industry and talents displayed by the noble lord in the chair of the committee, observed that he had been given to understand that a disposition had been manifested in a certain quarter to bring the parties who now differed so widely, nearer to each other in opinion. He thought, therefore, that the house would consult its own convenience, by allowing an opportunity for any arrangement to be made upon this subject.
Mr. Coke
was proceeding to state his objection to the report, when he was called to order by
Mr. Brodrick
, who observed, that the subject before the house was merely the time at which the report should be discussed.
Lord Binning
said, if a right hon. gent, would postpone the Dublin police bill from Friday, he would willingly bring his motion on that day.
Mr. H. Lascelles
, if any thing like an
406
Mr. C. Wynne
lamented that the noble lord had not determined upon this postponement last night. Hail he done so, the discussion of the Local Militia bill would not have been brought on so unexpectedly, and in the absence of several gentlemen who were anxious to deliver their sentiments upon it.
Mr. Curwen
was of opinion, that the state of the country might be such, with relation to other powers, as to render it a precedent to adopt the recommendation of the committee.
Mr. Thornton
requested that the discussion might be postponed till Monday, as his colleague and he would have an opportunity before that day of learning the sentiments of their constituents. A public meeting in the county of Surrey would be held on Saturday, and he should be sorry that the debate should come on before that time.—After some further conversation, in which sir J. Seabright, sir S. Romilly, lord Binning, Mr. Whitbread, Mr. Barham, Mr. W. Taylor, sir A. Wellesley, and Mr. Windham, participated, it was agreed that lord Binning's notice should stand for to-morrow, and Mr. W. Taylor's for Friday.
[LOCAL MILITIA BILL.]
Lord Castlereagh
Lord Milton
, in the absence of some hon. friends of his, felt it his duty to impress upon the house the necessity of postponing the further proceedings on this bill till next Friday. There was a very general feeling entertained, that the question on the distilleries, which had the precedence for discussion, would have prevented the order, which referred to the Local Militia, from being moved, at least at so early an hour of the night. Under that impression, and knowing that it was the intention of some friends of his to submit certain amendments and clauses in the committee, he should certainly move the postponement of the order till next Friday.
Lord Castlereagh
pressed the house to proceed; and contended that there were future opportunities for those members, who were then unfortunately absent, to submit their opinions to the consideration of the house. Indeed, he did not expect a fuller
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Mr. Windham
said, that notwithstanding the easy, self-satisfied way in which the noble lord expressed himself, he should have recollected that if the house was full, it was filled by gentlemen who came down to the discussion of another business, which had been positively fixed for that night. A measure stood for that night, on which a great deal of discussion was expected. Without any reason assigned, save an undefined assertion of convenience, it was postponed. The result was, that another measure, which was not expected to come on, was pressed before the house; and when causes were stated to postpone it, the noble lord replied, that the motion was unnecessary, because, after the details were gone through, there were other opportunities for the discussion of their merits. The question, however, turned upon this consideration, that by agreeing to the amendment moved by his noble friend, the only inconvenience which was likely to result was, that hon. members would have another day to attend their duty in that house, whereas if the house then proceeded, no future opportunity would be offered to them to state their objections.—The house then divided: Ayes 81; Noes 37. Majority 44.
Sir James Hall
thought that the period of eighteen was certainly the fittest time for young men to commence military service, and that every year after they became less and less fit. He was of opinion that if the ballot was confined to young men between eighteen and nineteen, a sufficient number would be found to answer the purposes required, without carrying the ballot to men of more advanced years. He thought the age of thirty-five much too far advanced.
Lord Castlereagh
admitted, that in some counties the principle of the hon. baronet might answer, and produce even more men than were wanted for the particular district, but in many others it would not at all produce the number required, and the age must be extended.
Sir James Montgomery
thought the range of years stated in the clause too extensive, as it would give a greater number of men than were required.
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Lord Castlereagh
answered, that the numbers were calculated by the population of each county; and a narrower limitation would not give the number of men required.
Sir James Montgomery
observed, that last year's Militia Bill excepted numbers on the ground of being volunteers; but in this bill, every county was ordered to find its quota, without any regard to the number of its volunteers. Neither was any exception proposed on account of the number of a man's children, however great; and in this respect he thought that carrying the ballot so high as thirty-five years of age, would be extremely oppressive to numbers of poor men with large families depending on their industry. He therefore suggested an exception in favour of men having more than three children; and he also thought the hardship much greater on men after thirty than before; more especially a poor shop-keeper, or any man settled in life, of small capital, whose income did not exceed 100
l
Sir W. W. Wynne
thought that by making the term from eighteen to thirty, about one in five would be drawn for service in the county where he lived; but the clause as it stood would take two out of three of the male population.
Lord Castlereagh
said, that the committee, on considering the measure maturely, would find that it would on no account be so oppressive as seemed to be apprehended. To the working manufacturer who could earn six shillings a day, undoubtedly the service would be objectionable. But it would be no great oppression upon the head of a family to be obliged, during a period of four years, to devote one month in each to make himself serviceable to his country; and with respect to the burthen apprehended by parishes for allowances to the families of poor men during their absence on service, it was groundless, as such allowance was to be reimbursed by the paymaster-general. As a measure of national expence, he had now reason to believe it would not be nearly so expensive as he at first imagined, from the number of volunteers who were coming forward in every part of the country. It was only in counties where volunteers did not come forward in sufficient numbers.
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Sir John Cox Hippisley
cabled the attention of the house to the operation this bill would have on those young men at Eton, Winchester, Westminster, and other places, who were educated with a view to holy orders. The resident members of universities were already exempted, and in the same spirit the exemption ought to be extended to persons of the description just mentioned. The fine, he understood, was to exempt only for two years, and persons who could not possibly enter into the militia might be liable to pay it three times in all. He also adverted to the situation in which young Roman Catholics would stand; especially such as were educated for holy orders. If they were liable to serve at all, of which there were doubts, they would be subject to the Mutiny Act and the articles of war, which commanded the marching to church, &c. Their situation was quite different from such of the Roman Catholics as enlisted voluntarily. He therefore moved an amendment, exempting young men engaged,
bona fide
Lord Castlereagh
did not object to the principle, but, if admitted, it would open a door to the most, enormous abuses, and the mischief which would thus result from allowing the exemptions would far overbalance any inconvenience that could arise from leaving the matter as it stood. With regard to young men educated for Roman Catholics, it was but fair, that they should at least contribute to the public service by fine, as the Quakers did, whose religious principles prevented their giving personal service. His lordship also observed, that the pressure here was much less than that of the regular militia service.
Mr. Windham
thought the amendment of the hon. baronet well worthy of serious consideration. But leaving that, he called the attention of the noble lord to the difference between this and other services, especially that proposed by the Training
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Mr. W. Smith
adverted to the exemptions which were allowed to dissenting clergymen, which, in this bill, was qualified by the words,' and not carrying on any other trade.' He admitted that many-frauds had been committed by persons who got exempted by pretending to be dissenting clergymen. But there was a numerous sect called Baptists, whose teachers had in many instances, so little salary, that they became booksellers or stationers, being, however, really clergymen. The operation of these words would be peculiarly hard on them, and he would propose an amendment to remedy this inconvenience on the Report.
Lord Castlereagh
objected, that nothing was more usual than for masons, bricklayers, and other handicraftmen, to setup for spiritual teachers, and hence a clause like that wished to be introduced, would most erroneously include these unworthy objects within its provision.
Mr. Calcraft
adverted to the clause, refusing exemption to apprentices, and contended that this was most injurious to the young men themselves, as they would be taken from their employments, the knowledge of which they might not have sufficiently acquired, and fall into habits inconsistent with their occupations, while the masters would be most seriously injured in their property, the young men being taken from them at the age when they would be of most use to them. It was known that the permanent duty of the volunteers did much harm in this way.
Lord Castlereagh
observed, that as the master would probably not come within the age fixed by the bill, it would be no great hardship on him to have his apprentice called out, particularly as the twenty-eight days service was not intended to be
411
Mr. Calcraft
persisted in taking the sense of the house.—After some further conversation, strangers were ordered to withdraw, but no division took place.
Mr. C. Wynne
adverted to the words in the same clause, that 'no poor man who has more than one child' should be exempted from this service, though exempt from the regular militia; and proposed, in order to make the thing more precise and intelligible, to leave out the words 'more than one child,' and substitute 'less than three children.' This was agreed to.
Mr. Spencer
Stanhope and Mr. Vansittart objected to the scale of gradation in the imposition of fines.
Lord Castlereagh
observed upon the necessity of proportioning the fines to the conditions of the different orders of the community: those belonging to what may be called the smaller gentry, would be induced to serve by a fine that would be sufficient to compel persons of an inferior description.
Mr. Windham
ridiculed the idea of compelling the small gentry to live for 28 days the life of a common soldier, herding with the lowest dregs of society, by a penalty of 30
l
Lord Castlereagh
, the Chancellor of the Exchequer, and some other members, urged the expediency of proceeding as far as possible that night. The gallery was then cleared for a division, but the
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[PETITIONS RESPECTING DISTILLATION
A Petition of several of the owners and occupiers of land on or near the South Downs, in the county of Sussex, was also presented to the house, and read; setting forth, "That the petitioners have understood, with the greatest concern, that it has been recommended, by a Report from a Select Committee of the house, that the use of grain in the Distilleries of G. Britain, should be suspended for one year from the 1st day of July 1808; and the petitioners beg leave to represent, that, in their opinion, the adoption of such a measure must be highly injurious to the general agricultural interests of G. Britain and particularly so to the growers of barley in that and the neighbouring districts; and that the petitioners most cheerfully concur in the propriety of affording relief, whenever it may be deemed expedient by the house, to their fellow subjects resident or interested in the colonies; but they feel it to be their duty to represent, with great deference, the impropriety of granting such relief to any one body of their fellow subjects at the expence of the landed interest solely, and more especially as the growth of barley has been much diminished by the high duties on malt; and that the agriculture of the country, and the course of crops, have been formed and arranged with the confidence that they would not be disturbed by any measures which may have a tendency to check the general spirit of improved cultivation; and the petition cannot therefore but observe with the most serious alarm the sanction of parliament applied for to a measure which may found a precedent of the most dangerous nature, by rendering the agriculture of the country, in any of its branches, subservient to temporary or local expedients; and that the petitioners in particular apprehend, that the prospect held out to the growers of barley of a demand for the
413
A Petition of the justices of the peace, commissioners of supply, magistrates of towns, merchants, and manufacturers, in the county of Renfrew, was presented to the house, and read; setting forth, That the petitioners, with every wish and attention to afford encouragement to agriculture, consider it their duty to promote, by every means in their power, such measures as may tend to supply the labouring and manufacturing classes in that populous county with an adequate quantity of food; and that the grain produced in G. Britain, during years of ordinary crops, is wholly inadequate to supply the population of this kingdom with food, and the quantity required to make up the deficiency has been imported from foreign countries; and that the grain produced in the county of Renfrew can only afford a supply to its inhabitants for a few months in the year; and that the best mode of counteracting the bad consequences likely to arise from the difficulty of obtaining any importation of grain from the continent of Europe, and the United States of America, would be to prohibit the use of corn in distillation for a limited time, which would bring into the market a considerable quantity of food in aid of the de-
414
HOUSE OF LORDS.
Thursday, May 19, 1808.
[MARRIAGE INDEMNITY BILL.]
The Bishop of Exeter
The Lord Chancellor
could not omit this occasion of expressing his regret at the frequent introduction of bills of this description.
The Bishop of Exeter
acquiesced in the justness of the noble and learned lord's observation, and hoped that the introduction of such bills would cease.
The Earl of Lauderdale
considered the bill as of very great importance, inasmuch as it shewed the numerous inconveniences that arose from the Marriage Act. As the noble and learned lord seemed resolved to turn his attention to these inconveniencies, he would perhaps discover how far it might be expedient to repeal the Marriage Act, or so far to new model its provisions as to
415
Lord Holland
concurred in this opinion. He wished even the legislature would take a more wide and liberal view of the Marriage Act, and some other acts, such as the Corporation and Test Acts, which proved such hardships to so many large descriptions of his majesty's subjects. Surely that act could not be practically wise and useful which justified a recurrence to so many suspensions of it.
The Lord Chancellor
said he must have been grossly mis-understood, if it was supposed he could entertain any intention of moving the repeal of any of these acts; on the contrary an occasion was likely soon to occur when he should declare his opinion of the necessity of retaining them.
Lord Redesdale
would never sit silent and hear the declarations that were made by some noble lords. As he deeply and sincerely revered the Marriage Act, and as he felt the great importance of a strict observance of it, so should he always be ready to raise his voice against the opinion of those to whom nothing in the constitution appeared sacred, and who avowed the design of proposing the repeal of the Marriage Act, and other acts equally essential to The safety of the state, and to the well being and peace of the community. Those who harboured such designs, could not mean well to their country.
Earl Stanhope
called to order. He felt much respect for the noble and learned lord, but he never would allow him or any noble lord to impute motives to noble lords as influencing the opinions they delivered in that house.
Lord Redesdale
did not conceive himself to be disorderly. He did not think that any noble lord without moving for the repeal of an act of the legislature had a right to enter into arguments that treated it with disrespect.
The Earl of Lauderdale
called the noble and learned lord to order, and reprobated the narrowness and illiberality of his opinions, which were now held odious in every part of the country, and which he was certain would prove as mischievous as they were odious.
Lord Ellenborough
contended that his noble and learned friend was strictly in order, and that his observations grew out of the bill before the house.
Lord Redesdale
then went on, and contended that he did not conceive he had made any unparliamentary remarks: on
416
The Earl of Lauderdale
conceived the noble lord as most illiberal in his observations on this and other discussions of a like nature, and was convinced there was not one noble lord within the four corners of the house, who did not think so.
Lord Holland
, considered the language used by the noble lord as most unparliamentary, and tending to prevent the freedom of debate. The question had been naturally introduced by the motion for reading the bill, which proposed an indemnity to persons who had offended against the Marriage act. Besides, he protested against the doctrine that no law was to be amended, nor any new one introduced, without subjecting the person so introducing the measure to the imputation of acting with evil designs against the constitution. If such doctrine was once introduced, the liberty of speech would be destroyed, and some noble lords would perhaps be intimidated from doing their duty.—The bill was then read a second time.
[INDICTMENT BILL.]
Earl Stanhope
417
Lord Ellenborough
observed that this oath did not apply to the trial of misdemeanors, and that in ninety-nine cases of misdemeanor out of a hundred, in the court of king's bench, the defendants were not present at their trials.
Earl Stanhope
resumed and observed, that, the noble and learned lord on the woolsack, only made parentheses in his own speeches, but the noble and learned lord who had just sat down made parentheses in the speeches of other persons.
Lord Ellenborough
said he considered himself as appealed to by the noble earl.
Earl Stanhope
continued his argument. Would the noble lord say that it was consonant to the constitution, or to the common law of the land, that a person ought to be imprisoned for a misdemeanor, before he was found guilty of the slightest offence, and that he should be kept a prisoner till the trial, which his prosecutor might delay as long as he pleased? It was a great hardship in the law that a man should be kept in prison on suspicion. Suppose he could prove an alibi, how was he to do it when in prison? He might know where the persons to prove it were to be met with, but not know their names, so as to enable others to come at them for the purpose of his acquittal: and the learned lord who was so fond of parentheses in other men's speeches, well knew
418
ex officio
ex officio
ex officio
Lord Holland
rose, and observed, that he had expected some noble lord who supported the bill would have attempted to shew its necessity. He had conceived that the noble and learned lord (Ellenborough) had intended to do so, and he was
419
ex officio
Lord Ellenborough
contended, that considerable misconception had taken place with respect to this bill, which did not alter the law as it now stood, or at least very slightly, but merely defined more accurately the course to be pursued. As the law at present stood, it was well known that persons might be held to bail not merely upon indictment, but by any justice of the peace, upon a charge of misdemeanor. With respect to informations filed
ex officio
420
ex parte
ex officio
Lord Erskine
condemned the principle of extending regulations made with an immediate view to the collection of the revenue, to other cases. With respect to the bill, he admitted there was nothing in it affecting the Trial by Jury, as supposed by the noble earl (Stanhope), and that the objection of trying a man in his absence did not apply to it. He contended, however, that the bill did make an alteration in the law as it now stood, and for which no necessity had been shewn; namely, in holding to bail upon informations filed
ex officio
421
The Lord Chancellor
contended that the only question at present was, whether there was so much good in this bill as to authorise its being sent to a committee. He thought there was. With respect to informations filed
ex officio
Earl Stanhope
was glad that some alteration was to be made in the bill, as in that case it would be sent back to the commons. His lordship proceeded to shew the absurdity of contending, that because judges were sometimes honest men, or attorney-generals persons who could be trusted, therefore extraordinary powers should be vested in their hands. Were he to attempt to drive such a doctrine down the throat of the noble and learned lord, he was convinced he could not say Amen to it. Judges and attorney-generals were like
422
The Earl of Lauderdale
enforced the inapplicability of revenue statutes to the common law of the country, and argued, that the advantages felt in carrying these revenue statutes into execution, would by no means enable us to judge how far similar or equal good was to be expected from an extension of the system. If we were once to embrace this doctrine, we might expect, to see the facilities afforded by the Income tax, which was a revenue statute, sought to be extended to the effect of forcing persons, at all times, to make a disclosure of their property, on the pretence that thereby bankruptcies might be diminished. Many other provisions of an equally dangerous nature might be grounded on the principle here laid down, which, on the whole, had his most decided opposition.
Lord Holland
confessed that some of his objections had been removed by his noble friend (lord Ellenborough) and by the noble lord on the woolsack, but still he continued so decidedly hostile to the preamble, and to the general principle of the measure, that he could not vote for the second reading of the bill.
423
The house then divided on the second reading: Contents 17; Not-contents 7. Majority 10.
HOUSE OF COMMONS.
Thursday, May 19, 1808.
[PARISH SETTLEMENT BILL.]
The order of the day for the second reading of the Parish Settlement bill being read,
Colonel Stanley
stated the object of this bill, which was to prevent any settlement being gained by renting any dwelling under the value of 20
l
l
l
l
Mr. Curwen
objected to the whole bill, as oppressive and injurious in its operation, and tending to increase the burthens upon parishes, already too great. With respect to passing Irish and Scotch paupers to their respective parishes, he thought it would be an act of great cruelty and injustice. He considered the encouragement of Friendly Societies as the best mode of reducing the poors rates, and therefore recommended them to the consideration of government. He concluded by moving, that the bill be read a second time this day six months.
Mr. Lockhart
thought, that as a measure for the regulation of the Poor Laws, the house might entertain this bill, although he had some objections to make to some of the clauses intended to be enacted by it. With respect to the clause empowering the removal of Irish and Scotch paupers, he thought the house could not entertain it for one moment; it would be too much to say, that a man, after a long, laborious, and industrious life, should be turned over from the parish which had been the scene of that life, to a place where no provision whatever was made for him.
Mr. Davies Giddy
was of opinion, that the whole of the poor laws should be repealed, but that as the present bill might be attended with partially beneficial effects, it ought to be suffered to go to a committee.
Mr. Horner
strongly objected to the bill, as completely and fundamentally altering the whole law of settlements; occupation or payment of rent was not required; it was enough that the pauper had a mere title to possession. He objected to the bill, not merely because it would introduce new litigation and expence, but as condemning as vagrants and criminals, persons who
424
Sir S. Romilly
considered the bill highly objectionable, as increasing the difficulty of procuring settlements, which on the contrary, in the opinion of Judge Black-stone, lord Mansfield, and all other wise and great men who had written on the subject, should be made as easy as possible. It was the interest of every parish to relieve itself of a small burthen, and put a large one upon another; for, when a man with his family was removed from one parish to another, it was not a mere temporary burthen, but ultimately a continual burthen upon such parish. The most beneficial effects, in his opinion, would arise by facilitating the power of acquiring a settlement; and he thought, were a six months residence to entitle a pauper, to a settlement, it would be attended with the most beneficial effects, not only in lessening the poors' rates, but relieving the subject from the greatest oppression. As to removing Irish and Scotch paupers, in most instances it would be sending them to a place where they were altogether strangers, and they would be burthensome paupers, when they otherwise might become useful members of society.
Mr. Graham
supported the bill.
Mr. Whitbread
was happy to find this measure objected to as it was, as he had troubled the house on a former occasion, and never heard any one support the law of settlement as it at present existed. He had laboured to carry into effect some measures of the kind, and the opinions he had heard this day would encourage him to further exertions. As to sending Irish and Scotch paupers to their parishes, he thought it highly objectionable, and if passed into a law, would be attended with the most grievous consequences: in Ireland, where there were no poor laws, the oppression would be excessive.—After a few further observations by general Mathew, Mr. Croker, and sir R. Peele, colonel Stanley declared, that he felt it his duty to take the sense of the house upon the bill. A division then took place, when there appeared; For the second reading 11; Against it 114. Majority against the bill 103.
[EAST INDIA PAPERS.]
The East India Papers which were ordered to be produced were laid upon the table.
Mr. R. Dundas
hoped, if it was in the contemplation of any hon. gent, to move that
425
Sir J. Anstruther
stated, that the papers moved for on the affairs of India consisted of no less than 5800 folio pages, and that the printing of them would cost 12,000
l
Mr. Bankes
said, that the expence of printing papers was a growing evil which ought to be corrected, as it amounted now to no less a sum than 90,000
l
Mr. Whitbread
protested against the doctrine, that the members of the house of commons should be debarred from information, because this could not be communicated without incurring a certain ex-pence. Was there any man, for instance, who would regret the expence which had been incurred, in printing the papers relative to the transactions in the Carnatic? He admitted, that on the present occasion, it might not be necessary to print the voluminous mass of papers now upon the table; still, however, he thought that it would be better even to expend 10,000
l
[THE WAGES OF JOURNEYMEN COTTON
Mr. Rose
rose to move for leave to bring in a bill, to limit the excessive depression of the Wages of persons employed in the weaving of Cotton. He was induced to this step, not from a conviction of the propriety of fixing the minimum of wages, but in compliance with the wishes of a numerous and respectable class of persons who were now suffering peculiar hardships, and who were at the same time supporting them with a patience and resolution which did them credit. The measure was proposed with the consent of the masters as well as of the journeymen, and he was sure that the house would be anxious to grant them every possible relief.
Mr. Patteson
asked, whether it was meant that the operation of the bill should be general, or that it should be confined to those places where the weavers had petitioned for relief?
Mr. Rose
replied, that it was intended that its operation should be limited to
426
Mr. Davies Giddy
declared his opinion that the bill for which the right hon. gent. had moved, would, if carried into a law, have the most mischievous tendency, not only to the Cotton manufacturers, but to the persons for whose relief it was intended. Much of the distress that was at present felt by the Cotton Weavers, he conceived to arise, not from the wages being too low, but because at one time they were too high, a circumstance which induced more people to adopt this trade than there was a demand for, or than it could support; and were a minimum of wages now to be fixed, he was afraid that it would prove an inducement to ignorant persons to bring up their children in this line, and still further to overstock the market. He should be most happy could any other mode be devised of granting relief to the sufferers, but the one now proposed he considered so objectionable, that even in this early stage of the business, he was resolved to take the sense of the house upon it.
Mr. Horner
agreed with almost every thing which had been said by the hon. gent, who had just sat down. But, however strong his conviction was of the impropriety of the principle on which this measure was to be founded, he thought the application of such a numerous and deserving class of individuals merited every attention; and perhaps in discussing the remedy which had been proposed by the right hon. gent, one less objectionable might be discovered.
Lord Milton
joined in opposing the bill, which had a direct tendency to ruin the manufactures, and to increase the distresses of those employed in them. For these distresses he felt as much as any man, but he thought the house ought to be extremely cautious in raising hopes which must infallibly end in disappointment. The inevitable consequence of the present measure, if carried into effect, would be, that the manufacturer would discharge a number of his workmen, by' which they would be reduced to complete misery.
Sir Robert Peek
disapproved highly of the principle of the measure, and was anxious to make it known, that this disapprobation was founded upon a true regard to the interest of the work-people them-selves. The great cause of the distress at present felt, was not the oppression of the masters, but the shutting up of the foreign
427
Mr. Thompson
said, that before fixing the minimum of wages, the right lion, gent, who moved for leave to bring in the bill, ought to equalize the abilities of the workmen.
Mr. Rose
explained, that it was his intention to have fixed the minimum of wages not for the time but the quantity of work done. He repeated, that he had been induced to propose the measure, not from a conviction of its propriety, but in compliance with the wishes of the cotton weavers, backed with the consent of their employers.
Mr. Tierney
declared, that he should be as happy as any man, if some relief could be granted in a proper way to the persons employed in the cotton manufacture, but he never could accede to a measure which went to fix the minimum of wages.
The Chancellor of the Exchequer
entirely agreed with those who thought that the house should manifest a disposition, which he was sure was universally felt, to accede, as far as a sense of duty would permit them, to the wishes of that numerous and respectable class of individuals whom his right hon. friend was anxious to relieve. He did not think that the present measure would be productive of advantage. The principle of the bill, which went to fix the minimum of wages, carried into operation, could do no good, and might do a great deal of harm. It would not have the effect of at all increasing the quantity of work, and it would diminish the number of persons employed in it, because only the best workmen would be retained. At the same time he was of opinion, that it was better that the cotton weavers should be disappointed after a discussion of the merits of their application in the house of commons,
428
Mr. Rose
said, that after the manner in which the proposition had been received, he should not press it upon the house.
Mr. A. Baring
expressed his satisfaction that the motion was withdrawn; but he could not omit this opportunity of stating his opinion, that the distress complained of arose from the suspension of foreign trade, which had taken place in consequence of the Orders in Council.
Mr. Lascelles
observed, that had the right hon. gent, persisted in his measure for fixing the minimum of wages, there was no reason why the maximum also should not have been fixed. He reminded the right hon. gent. of the observation of a celebrated writer on political economy, 'that commerce in this country had continued to prosper, notwithstanding the existence of a Board of Trade,' and recommended it to him to allow it to take its own course.
[SUGAR DISTILLATION.]
Lord Binning
rose, pursuant to the notice he had given some time ago, to make a motion on the subject of the Distilleries. Previous to moving that the house should go into a committee, he would explain the nature of the Resolutions he meant to offer in that committee, and the nature and causes of the changes made in those resolutions since he had first announced them. The topics involved in the Report were important and momentous, and the highest authorities differed among themselves upon the principal points. The committee was appointed, in the first instance, to consider of the means of affording relief to the West India proprietors and merchants, and the order under which the committee assembled, directed the committee to inquire whether the most immediate and effectual means of relief would not be, to confine the Distilleries to the use of Sugar and Molasses alone. In the course of this inquiry, it became necessary to ascertain how far the agriculture of the country would be affected by such a restriction, and this investigation led to the knowledge of facts, which established the wisdom and necessity of the restric-
429
430
431
432
Mr. Coke
(of Norfolk) agreed that this question ought to be set at rest. He was sorry to observe a practice of suspending the statute of Wm. and Mary, which was the best security of the agriculture of this country, by affording the means of disposing of the surplus produce. The breweries and distilleries took off this surplus. If their use of corn was stopped, the demand must be lessened, the price must fall, and the growth and supply must of course be diminished. The landed gentlemen did not seek to maintain corn at the highest possible price. All they sought was a sure sale and a saving price, without which the land would not be cultivated. The price this year was low till this committee had commenced its inquiries. It had recently risen in consequence of the agitation produced by the investigation of the committee. The Report itself allowed, that every permanent interference with the present established system of agriculture was injurious; and it expressed great reluctance at adopting even a temporary restraint. Here the hon. gent, entered into a detail of the management of barley farms. In this species of culture, and that of wheat, an increase of one fourth had taken place within 15 years. The importation had proportionally diminished, and the fluctuation of the price of corn had materially lessened. The measure went to check the established system
433
Sir W. Curtis
highly approved of the fur, candid, and manly part the noble lord had acted in this business, as well as the ability he had displayed in the conduct of it. It was known to all the world, that we could not live without importing corn, and in case of a failure of importation, which happened now, or of a scarcity, which might very soon happen, it must be the duty of the legislature to seek for the best substitutes they could procure. Here, then, it was proposed to make sugar a substitute for corn, which was likely to be scarce. He hoped the landed interest would not oppose so useful a plan.
Sir John Sinclair
said, that he might have less objections than he had to the present measure, if he could be assured that it was founded upon a system of general policy, and not local interest; for he was there, not as a man locally interested by the views of any particular place, or any one set of men, but as one of the members of parliament for the united kingdom of G. Britain and Ireland, and as such he could not see any advantage to
434
Mr. Curwen
, considering the great importance of this proposition, thought that it ought at least to have come from one of the ministers of the crown, who must be in a peculiar manner responsible for the effects of it. He, notwithstanding, gave credit to the noble lord, for the manner in which he had brought it forward; but asked, how he had coma to change his opinion, and swerve from the Report in one day? However, he would not argue from the Report, but take the proposition, as it now stood. With respect to the lodging these discretionary powers in the
435
436
Mr. Marryatt
could not agree with those who thought that the interests of the West Indian planters were to be thrown entirely out of consideration, and maintained that a case of the utmost distress had been made out by them. When the account of the American embargo arrived, he, along with others, as a deputation from the West Indian committee, waited on the chancellor of the exchequer to ask, Whether government would consent that the restrictions on the exportation of corn to the colonies should be taken off? and upon this being refused, it was suggested that sugar might be substituted for grain in the distilleries, as this would be only relieving them with the money that was sent to be paid to foreigners for corn. It ought to be remembered, that in former committees on this subject, the plan went to the breweries, and to the distillation of molasses; at present it went no further than the distilleries, and distillation from sugar, so that the measure was much simplified, and the financial difficulties in a great measure got rid of. It ought also to be kept in view, that the committee still continued its labours, and had a Report in forwardness pointing out a permanent plan of relief, by which any recourse to this measure in future would be rendered unnecessary. He denied that the system of agriculture would be deranged, for the crop of this year was in the ground, and before the next year's crop could come in, the measure would have answered its purpose, and of course cease. He also denied that the general interests of the country would be at all injured, since the quantity of corn thrown into the market would be so much less than what had been commonly imported. The hon. baronet opposite had not sufficiently distinguished between the effects of a temporary and a permanent measure. He allowed that if the plan was to be permanent, it would be injurious, but no such thing was in contemplation. If agriculture had increased, the population
437
General Gascoyne
had understood that the question had been postponed yesterday, with a view to some compromise, but what that was he was yet to learn, for he saw from the agricultural gentlemen nothing but the most pointed opposition. But he should like to know by whom that compromise was made, or who authorized it? The committee was no party to such a compromise, and the hon. member for Norfolk had shewn no inclination to come into the noble lord's proposition. But, after all the delusion and all the clamour that had been excited on this subject, it appeared, from what the noble lord said, that the question was to be discussed without reference to the relief of the sugar planters! What had the committee been appointed for, but to consider of a mode of affording them relief? And was he now to abstain from stating their distresses? The advocates of the high price of provisions refused any relief to the planters till a scarcity should take place, when they would humanely permit them to share the profits they derived from the distress of the country. If the planters were to be relieved only by the calamity of the country, he wished they might be long -without relief. It had been said, that the colonies
438
439
Mr. Gooch
did not intend, when he came into the house, to have said any thing, but had resolved to leave the discussion to those who could do the subject so much more justice. But he could not avoid taking notice of the aspersions which had been cast on the country gentlemen by the hon. general under the gallery—a thing the less to be surprised at as coming from an avowed advocate of the Slave trade. The opposition to this measure, he observed, was founded on the clearest and most solid principles, and he most conscientiously joined in it. Trade might suffer for a time, without any great loss to the community, or without affecting in a material degree the general interests. But it was far otherwise with agriculture; when that was injured the whole country must be injured with it. Nothing, therefore, ought to come into competition with this grand national object. This measure, if passed, would derange the agricultural system, and change the whole method of cropping. The agricultural interests ought not, surely, to pay for the speculations of the colonists. On these ground?, he would oppose the measure. With respect to the imputations of the hon. general, he would leave it to others to give him a detailed answer.
Mr. W. Fitzgerald
commented upon the contrast so glaringly manifested between the Report of the committee, and the speech of the noble lord who was its chairman. The Report recommending the measure for Great Britain, at the same time stated reasons conclusive on the impolicy of extending it to Ireland. On that part of the Report he certainly had not a different opinion; but it was with feelings of surprise he read a following recommendation to that house to restrict the impor-
440
The Chancellor of the Exchequer
observed, that gentlemen had alluded to a compromise: he was not aware of any such compromise, nor had his noble friend, as far as he understood him, affirmed that any had taken place. If there had been any compromise, and any discredit attached to it, the hon. general had certainly shewn that he was no party to it, and that none of the discredit would rest with him. He understood his noble friend to have said, that he had postponed the resolutions on the former day, from an idea, arising from the nature of the objections, that a trial ought to be made whether the propositions might not be so framed as to conciliate gentlemen on both sides. But, he certainly had no recollection that his noble friend pretended that he could compromise the matter, nor had he any authority to do so. The hon. general had charged his noble friend with having left the distress of the sugar planters out of the question, though the committee had been expressly appointed to devise a plan for their relief. He did not think that his noble friend had departed from the character or spirit of the Report, for the measure was there recommended only with a view to the diminished supply of corn, and a power was accordingly recommended to be vested in the crown, to stop the suspension when the continuance of it should be inconveni-
441
442
vice versa
443
Mr. Ponsonby
declared, that if he had not read the Resolutions proposed by the noble lord, he should have voted for the motion of going into the committee; but the reading of these Resolutions was sufficient to satisfy his mind as to the propriety of an opposite course. The gentlemen on the other side, had taken quite different routes to recommend the measure of the noble lord. One had pleaded for it as necessary to relieve the West India merchants, while another contended that it was called for in order to guard against scarcity. To show that the latter ground was erroneous, the right hon. gent. entered into a comparative statement of the prices of corn, at various periods, particularly in Ireland; and quoted several passages from the evidence taken before the committee, to prove that this ground was quite untenable. As to the relief of the West India merchants, he was as anxious for it as any man, but to the mode now proposed he strongly objected, and, in particular, because he did not think this mode could be effective. He would rather recommend some permanent relief for this deserving class of men, by reducing, for instance, the revenue to which they were subject. The West India merchants he thought peculiarly entitled to consideration; because, while they were subject to all the additional contributions consequent upon the war, they were not liable to profit by its results. For if, through our success, any colonies should be captured, the West India merchants were likely to suffer by the competition which they must experience from the produce of such colonies; and if defeated, those merchants would, in consequence, be excluded from an additional market. Thus, in the event
444
Sir A. Wellesley
asserted, that the people of Ireland, and especially in the north, were very much distressed for provisions, which distress would, he maintained, render a measure of this nature necessary, whatever might be the state of the West Indian merchants.
Colonel Montgomery
stated, that the scarcity of the potatoe crops in that part of Ireland with which he was acquainted, had been such last year as to afford scarcely enough to spare for the ordinary cultivation or seed. The consequence therefore was, to produce a proportionable scarcity of corn, which he thought the measure under consideration calculated to alleviate, if not to remedy.
Sir John Newport
was surprised at the statement, that the north of Ireland had recently experienced any material want of provisions, as the price of corn had not been for several months at all fluctuating at one of the greatest ports for the export of that article in Ireland, he meant Water-ford. If any scarcity existed in the north, he naturally concluded that such scarcity would have affected the price of corn at Waterford. The right hon. baronet generally deprecated the interposition of the legislature upon subjects of this nature. He thought such interposition, in almost every instance, extremely noxious. Indeed, experience had proved that nothing but imperious necessity could excuse it. To such interposition he believed it was owing that this country was not able to grow sufficient food for its population, as it formerly did. From the enactment of Mr. Parnell's act to the present time, the interposition he deprecated was found injurious. As to the rise which had recently taken place in the prices of sugar and corn, it appeared to him to proceed from the speculations likely to arise out of the existence of a committee upon this subject.
Mr. C. Ellis
contended, that the fears of the landed interest were without founda-
445
Admiral Harvey
considered that grain being at too low a price, was to be looked upon as a serious evil, as well as its being exorbitantly advanced. If he saw that there was any probability of a dearth, or scarcity, he should then most cheerfully vote for any measure that was calculated to economise the article, and lower its price. As the case now stood, he could by no means think of voting for the proposition then before the house, it being in his judgment calculated in a great degree to ruin the farmer for the sake of affording some partial relief to the West India planters and merchants.
Mr. Foster
stated, in the most unequivocal terms, that he meant to vote in opposition to his colleagues. His reasons were these; in the first place, he thought it to be contrary to all acknowledged maxims of agriculture to say, that we should prevent the use of grain in one of its regular channels, merely for the benefit of the West India colonies; and in the second place, if there were any ground for such a prohibition, it ought to be shewn, that the necessity of adopting such a measure arose from the dearth or scarcity, of grain, or some just cause for the apprehension that such a case was likely to happen. The corn of the country was, by the wisest and most experienced politicians, left in general to find its own level in the market, by the usual means of competition among the dealers. When there was a bad harvest, the price of grain advanced much higher than usual; there were always persons ready to import from foreign markets, and thus keep down the price whilst they promoted their own interests. But it never could be the interests of any state to be regardless of the interests of the farmer,
446
Mr. Windham
declared that the principles laid down by the right hon. gent, who had just sat down, and by his right hon. friend (Mr. Ponsonby), need only be heard, to carry conviction to the mind of any dispassionate man. The committee, however, had been instructed to consider of the best means of affording relief to the West India planters, and to consider of that only, as it was imagined at least; but all on a sudden, and most conveniently for the wishes of the gentlemen on the other side (all but the chancellor of the exchequer for Ireland), the idea of a scarcity in the country darted upon their mind, some-
447
Sir C. Burrell
declared his sincere conviction of the dangerous tendency of the measure which was then before the house.
Lord Castlereagh
strenuously supported the motion. As an argument in its favour, he asserted that the price of grain was at present higher than in the scarcity of 1795, and as high as in the scarcity of 1800, when the distilleries were prohibited. Added to this, we had not at present any prospect of a foreign import; so that any means that tended to husband our present sources of supply it was adviseable to adopt.
Mr. John Smith
supported the measure. The greatest possible calamity that could befal any country was a scarcity of corn. It must be considered, that for the last 18 years a very large importation of that article had taken place, and we ought to provide for the consequences that might arise from our being deprived of all foreign sources. There were already a great number of persons deprived of employ, so that we had need to guard against the additional calamity of scarcity. He knew of one instance, within these last six weeks, where no less than 1000 persons had been thrown out of work from one manufactory alone. He really believed too that the West India planters were a most injured set of people, and that some measure was necessary for their relief. The effect of this present measure would be to relieve both of these descriptions of individuals, and be attended with generally beneficial consequences.
Sir H. Mildmay
spoke against the measure, and stated the average of the price of corn for several years, in order to shew that the supporters of it were not justified in using such arguments in favour of their measure, from the state of these prices. If, however, the house proceeded into a committee, he should then take an opportunity of proposing some alteration in regard to the period.
Mr. G. Hibbert
said this measure was expressly recommended by the committee, after an inquiry into the same subject had
448
Mr. W. Smith
said, he had sat upon the committee for two months, and could not help expressing his surprise that the noble lord had brought forward such a measure. But unquestionably, this was not a measure of the committee which was instituted for the purpose of proposing relief to the West India planters, as they indeed seemed to be left entirely out of the question. His objection to the measure was, that, as to the West Indies, it was futile, and as to scarcity it was worse than nothing. Our importation of corn had been hitherto more than 700,000 quarters, but he argued that no scarcity was to be apprehended. He should like to know what effect this measure was likely to have before the next harvest. It was only telling the distillers that they must stop distilling from grain upon the 1st of July, the very time about which they would have done so, without any restraint whatever. The consequence of this measure would be, to produce scarcity instead of preventing it, as the distillers would use more grain between this time and the 1st of July, than they otherwise would have done.
Ayes
122
Noes
108
Majority for going into a Committee
—14.
449
HOUSE OF LORDS.
Friday, May 20, 1808.
[SCOTCH TEINDS.]
The house proceeded to give judgment in the Appeal, the earl of Wemyss v. Macqueen. This case was of great importance to the clergy of Scotland, as it involved a question, Whether the Stipend of a minister, having been once augmented since the year 1707, can legally receive a second augmentation. The Court of Session had decided in the affirmative.
The Earl of Lauderdale
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450
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the work was ended
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The Lord Chancellor,
at considerable length, contended, that the usage upon this point, in favour of a second augmentation, ought, not to be disturbed, and was of opinion that the interlocutor ought to be affirmed with some alteration.—After a few observations in reply from the earl of Lauderdale, the motion was negatived, and the interlocutor of the Court of Session affirmed.
HOUSE OF COMMONS.
Friday, May 20, 1808.
[MR. PALMER'S CLAIM.]
The house having resolved itself into a committee, Mr. Fuller in the Chair,
Mr. Lethbridge
Mr. Bankes
wished to know from the hon. gent. whether the present Bill was to embrace all the compensation? If it was not so, he confessed he should be disposed to object to any plan that would take from the other, house its right of inter-
474
Mr. Lethbridge
replied, that it certainly was not his intention to incorporate the arrears due to Mr. Palmer with the grant of per-centage, to be authorized by the Bill for which he had moved. He conceived, that the proper way of providing for the arrears of the per-centage would be by a vote of the house in the committee of supply.
Mr. Bankes
wished to know out of what fund it was proposed to take these arrears.
Mr. Lethbridge
replied, that that would be for the house itself to determine whenever it should regularly come before it; but if he might hazard a conjecture, he should be inclined to think, that the Post Office Revenues, which had been so considerably benefited by Mr. Palmer's invention, would be the fittest source to draw upon, for whatever further compensation it might be deemed necessary to remunerate him with.
Mr. Bankes
then said, that certainly if the house still considered the original Agreement as valid and binding, the Arrears could only be taken out of that revenue: now, that revenue was yearly carried to the Consolidated Fund, and therefore out of that fund the arrears must in fact be taken. But he believed that that could only be done by an act of parliament, and not by a vote of the house. He might quote many precedents in support of this opinion, and indeed there was even one in the present session, namely, the pension to lord Lake, which was granted both retrospectively and prospectively, and part of which was in fact for the payment of a debt or arrears from 1803. This mode, then, was not only supported by precedent, but was also important in another point of view, as affording the other house of parliament, possessed of coordinate powers, an opportunity of investigating the whole Claims of Mr. Palmer, and thus reviewing the subject, and per-
475
Mr. Marryat
opposed the remuneration altogether. He thought Mr. Palmer, by his own misconduct, had violated the principles of his Agreement, and forfeited his claim to the remuneration. Justice was always represented with a scale in one hand and a sword in the other. He never could divest that goddess of her attributes, or think that reward should take the place of punishment.
The question being loudly called for, the committee divided, when there appeared,
For the original Motion
63
For Mr. Bankes's Amendment
21
Majority for the original Motion
—42
While strangers were excluded, we understand the Speaker, in a short but impressive speech, supported the claims of Mr. Palmer with his wonted precision and ability. On the re-admission of strangers, Mr. Fuller, as chairman of the committee, put from the chair the original resolution, moved by Mr. Lethbridge, which was agreed to; and on the house being resumed, Mr. Fuller moved and obtained leave to bring in the said Bill.
[EXPEDITION TO THE DARDANELLES.]
Mr. Taylor
rose to move his promised Resolutions respecting the Expedition to the Dardanelles, but from the manner in which his speech was delivered, it was impossible, with the utmost attention, to catch more of it than suffices for a mere summary, he began by observing, that from the public notice which this Expedition, with all the circumstances connected with it, had excited, it was necessary that some inquiry should be instituted concerning it, a thing equally due to those who had planned it, and those to whom the execution had been entrusted. He stated, that before he had seen these Papers, he was rather inclined to think favourably at least of the object of the expedition; but he was now of opinion that it was founded
476
477
Mr. T. Grenville
expressed the satisfaction which he felt, after such repeated delays, in at length finding the motion substantially before the house, and in such a shape as to render it tangible. Far was he from complaining of the institution of inquiries of this nature. On the contrary, he deemed it most desirable, that those men who had exercised public functions should be called upon, in the face of the house and the country, to account for their conduct. More particularly were he and his colleagues gratified by the institution of the present enquiry, which would enable them to remove any unfavourable impression with respect to their conduct in this affair, if such impression existed, although if it did, he was at a loss how to conceive in what it could have originated. As well sis he could understand his majesty's present ministers, they had expressly disclaimed any participation in the institution of this enquiry, still, however, thinking it their duty to consent to it, and to allow of the production of the papers on which it was to be founded. All this was right and judicious enough. If he had any complaint against them, it was, that although they had never themselves asked for or appeared to warrant an enquiry, they had repeatedly, by insinuations and collateral arguments, endeavoured to produce a feeling against his majesty's late government, which it was impossible that at the time they could combat. He alluded particularly to the observations of the right hon. secretary of state for the foreign department, who, in a moment, certainly not of deliberation, but of violence and impetuosity, had accused the late administration of conduct, of which the official documents in his possession must have convinced him that they were innocent. That right hon. gent, had complained that his majesty's late government, at the requisition of the court of Petersburgh, made a diversion in the south of Europe, with ships without troops, when that requisition was for both ships and troops. No argument was necessary on this occasion. Let the house look at the papers on the table, and they
478
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Mr. Secretary Canning
had listened with great attention to the statement which the right hon. gent, had made in defence of himself and his colleagues, and could not help being surprised at the manner in which he had kept to the declaration which he had made at the outset, that he would discard from his mind every idea of justification by recrimination. The right hon. gent, had very properly, in his division of
483
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Mr. Windham
observed, that, gentlemen semed to consider a treaty as binding, notwithstanding any change of circumstances that might arise. Now, he considered that a treaty was only binding as to what was within the purview of that treaty; a friend might, for instance, become our very worst enemy by change of circumstances. Was it to be supposed, then, that under every circumstance, or whatever might be the conduct of the power to which we were allied, we were still to adhere to it as firmly as if it not only fulfilled the letter and the spirit of the
488
argumentum ad hominem;
Colonel Wood
endeavoured strenuously to impress the house with an idea of the impolicy of the measure.
HOUSE OF LORDS.
Monday, May 23. 1808
[MARRIAGE INDEMNITY BILL.]
On the motion of the bishop of Exeter, the house went into a committee on the Bill for rendering valid certain Marriages solemnized in certain churches and chapels where bands could not legally be published. The blank for the day up to which such marriages are to be legal, was filled up with the 23d of August, 1808.
Lord Redesdale
thought the clause for indemnifying the clergymen solemnizing such marriages objectionable, though he should not oppose it upon the present occasion. An intimation of an intention to oppose such clauses in future might perhaps have the effect of preventing the solemnization of these marriages.
The Archbishop of Canterbury
observed, that the necessity for these bills arose out of the very different provisions which applied to different churches and chapels, in some of which marriages were allowed to be solemnized and in others not. From the previous habits of clergymen, many of them could not be supposed to be acquainted with these legal distinctions, and
489
Lord Redesdale
thought the suggestion might be carried into effect, by means of a clause in the present bill.
The Bishop of Oxford
took an opportunity of mentioning the abuses that were practised with respect to the publication of bans, by means of parties taking a fictitious lodging in a parish different from that in which they resided, and having the bans there published. He knew of many very improper marriages which had taken place in consequence of this abuse, which he had in vain endeavoured to remedy.
The Lord Chancellor
observed that it was the opinion of lord Thurlow, that the clergyman in such a case might be indicted for a temporal offence, it being the meaning of the law that the bans should be published in the parish where the parties dwelt, and it also being the duty of the clergyman to make inquiry as to that fact; although such marriages, being in themselves legally solemnized, were undoubtedly good.
HOUSE OF COMMONS.
Monday, May 23, 1808.
[ROMAN CATHOLIC PETITION.]
Mr. Grattan presented the following Petition:
The humble Petition of the Roman Catholics of Ireland, whose names are hereunto subscribed, on behalf of themselves, and of others, his majesty's subjects professing the Roman Catholic religion:
490
Sheweth; "That your Petitioners, as is set forth in their humble Petition, presented to this honourable house on the 25th of March 1805, are, by divers statutes, still of force within this realm, rendered liable to many incapacities and restrictions, not imposed upon any other description of his majesty's subjects: That your petitioners with confidence assert, and the assertion is supported by the testimony of many of the ablest senators and wisest statesmen which the empire could ever boast, that there is nothing in their conduct as subjects, or their tenets as Christians, which ought to disqualify them from enjoying equal privileges with his majesty's other subjects: and they beg leave to state, that they do not yield to any class of persons, in affectionate attachment to his sacred person and family, in due obedience to the laws, and in just predilection for the British Constitution:—That at the present period, which requires all the energies of the state, and the exertions of an united people, your petitioners conceive that they cannot offer a stronger proof of their loyalty, than by humbly representing to this honourable house their earnest wish to be altogether committed with their country, and reinstated in a full and complete enjoyment of the English government and laws:—For your Petitioners beg leave respectfully to submit to this honourable house, that the constitution of England is the great charter of this land, and inheritance of the dutiful and faithful subjects of his majesty. The constitution which the ancestors of some of us accepted, when they submitted to the crown, and on the faith of which the ancestors of others passed over, and effected their settlement in Ireland, was, that they should participate in the laws and liberties of England. Many concessions of his majesty's royal progenitors, and repeated acts of parliament confirmed the invaluable blessing; it has had the sanction of an establishment of six hundred years; whilst the privations, of which we complain, are but the innovation of a century; from that innovation we appeal in this enlightened age, to the wisdom and justice of those august bodies, in whose hands are the fate and fortunes of the Empire: we appeal against acts, repugnant to the sense and habits of Englishmen, and to the genius of the English constitution; against precedents, not entitled, from the circumstances in which they were formed, to be immortal. We were excluded from our franchises, when the tumult of civil
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Mr. Grattan gave notice that he would, on Wednesday, move for a Committee to take the said Petition into consideration.
Mr. Montagu Matthew then presented another Petition to the same effect, from the Catholics of the county of Tipperary, which was also ordered to lie on the table.
[SUGAR DISTILLATION.]
Mr. Coke presented a Petition from the land-owners and occupiers of land in Norfolk, against the Sugar Distillation—Colonel Bullock presented a Petition from certain land-owners and occupiers of land, in the neighbourhood of Colchester, against the Sugar Distillation.—Admiral Harvey presented a petition from the owners and occupiers of land in the neighbourhood of Rumford, in Essex, against the Sugar Distillation, All which were referred to the Committee.
Lord Binning
then moved, that the house should resolve itself into a Committee of the whole house, to consider further of the Report which, upon the 13th day of April last, was made from the Committee appointed to enquire and report how far, and under what circumstances, it may be practicable and expedient to confine the Distilleries of the united kingdom, or of any part of the united kingdom, to the use of Sugar and Molasses only; and also what other provision can be made for the relief of the Growers of Sugar in the British West India colonies.
Mr. Coke
could not let slip any opportunity of opposing a measure so mischievous
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Mr. Rose
would wish the house to take up this question upon a much wider ground than the hon. gentlemen who opposed it seemed to do. That the West India planters had made out their case, nobody
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Sir W. W. Wynne
allowed the distress of the West India Planters and Merchants, and would be ready to give them relief in any other way than this. He had suggested for that purpose a reduction of the duty on such sugar as should be employed in the feeding of cattle. But, whilst he was anxious to afford relief to the West Indies, he could not consent to such a measure as the present, which would press exclusively on the landed interest. The present price of barley was not extraordinary, considering the shortness of the last crop. For these reasons he should oppose the Speaker's leaving the Chair.
Mr. Barham
rose and said;
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† But supposing it were possible for the planter to reduce his crop, the consequence must be, that the exportation from this country, and the shipping employed, must undergo a similar diminution. How far this may touch the vital interest of Great Britain, will best appear from the consideration of what our enemy is aiming chiefly to destroy,—our commerce and navy.
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A man convinc'd against his will,
Is of the same opinion still.
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"It grieves my heart to see you thus:
"Be comforted; relief is near;
"See, all your friends are in the rear."
"Older and abler pass'd you by;
"How strong were those, how weak am I;
"Ruin, we own, is just in view;
"But this is your affair—adieu."
520
Mr. R. Dundas
concurred in the general principle laid down by his right hon. friend the chancellor of the exchequer for Ireland, as to the propriety of not interfering with the com laws, an interference, in general, which could not be productive of any beneficial consequence. But, at the same time, he must allow that there were extreme cases, in which it would be necessary to resort to such interference. The question, therefore, was, whether the present circumstances of this country were such as to constitute a case of that description? The late crops of barley and oats had been short, but not the crop of wheat. Though there was no danger of scarcity at present, yet they ought to look to the future, and in the event of a short crop this season, they would not be justified in not leaving to the executive government the power of giving to the public consumption that amount of corn which was consumed in the distilleries. He did not agree either with those who supported this as a colonial measure, or with those who defended it on the score of existing or apprehended scarcity, but with a view to the great national interests which it was calculated to promote.
Mr. Ponsonby
said, that with reference to the note produced by his hon. friend who spoke last but one, he could assure him, on his honour, that he never had interfered in it directly cir indirectly. He hoped he was not weak enough, after having seen, on the last night this question was discussed, so many of his friends who had generally voted with him, differ from him upon it, to attempt to make it a party business; and he assured him on his honour he was not indiscreet enough to give his assent to such a letter. He thought this explanation was warranted, from the confidence placed in him by his colleagues. An hon. gent, had thought proper to find fault with what had fallen from him on a former occasion respecting Ireland; all he. could say was, that it was justified by the language of the chancellor of the exchequer of Ireland, who said, that the Union should not be violated for conve-
521
Mr. G. Hibbert
said, he had never felt more surprize at any proceeding in parliament, than at the warmth of opposition with which he had seen this measure met, and he particularly thought the objections to the mode in which it had been brought forward were ill founded. It had been said, that the house had been taken by surprize, and that, out of a Committee instituted for the purpose of enquiring into and suggesting remedies for the distresses of the West India Planters, had arisen a proposition materially affecting the agriculture of the kingdom, a proposition which they were not competent to entertain or to judge of, and which the house could not have looked for from a committee so constituted. A bare reference to the appointment of the Committee would prove the fallacy of this representation. The Committee is expressly appointed to 'enquire and report how far it may be 'practicable and expedient to confine the 'Distilleries of the united kingdom to the 'use of Sugar and Molasses only, and also 'what other provision can be made for
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Mr. Boyle
(Solicitor-General of Scotland) admited that it would be a most foolish policy to relieve one set of men at the expence of another class of the community. When he considered, however, the facts stated in the Report upon the, table, and what he knew of the state of the crop, particularly in Scotland, he thought it would be a measure of prudence to stop the distillation from grain, not merely from the beginning of July, as had been proposed by the noble lord, but if possible from the beginning of June. This opinion he had formed some months ago, altogether independent of the present situation of the West Indian planters, He
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Sir H. Mildmay
professed to feel as deeply as any man for the present distress of the West Indian planters, and to be most anxious that some relief should be granted them; but he thought this relief might be much better given by a reduction of the present duties on sugar, by a relaxation of the navigation act, or by advancing them a sum of money as had been done in one instance before. He hoped, however, that in order to relieve the West Indian planters, the house would not consent to derange the whole of the existing agricultural system of the country. He could not consent to an interference which would derange the whole system of British agriculture, on the faith of which sytsem 11,000 acres had been recently brought into cultivation. This increase of culture would not be kept up if the encouragement of a fair market was not suffered to operate. The land bore a vast proportion of the public burthens, poor tax 7,000,000
l
Mr. Western
said, he was ready to do justice to the motives of the noble lord (Binning) who brought forward the proposed measure of prohibiting the grain distillery, and to the motives of the chancellor of the exchequer also, who appeared determined to give it his most strenuous support; but that he differed from them so widely in opinion upon the subject, that instead of viewing it as a measure of sound policy, or as a wise expedient for a special purpose, he considered it in every point of view most injudicious, and likely to be productive of incalculable mischief. It appeared to him extraordinary, after the division of the other night, when the question was carried by a majority of only 14, that his majesty's ministers should think it adviseable to persist in pressing the subject further upon the consideration of the house. It was not usual for ministers to do so upon such a division, and it was still more extraordinary upon such
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s
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The Chancellor of the Exchequer
disclaimed the idea of interfering unnecessarily with agriculture. The only question in his mind was, whether the circumstances of the present time were such as to justify or call for such interference as that now proposed. He had not at any time given countenance to the idea of the existence of a scarcity; but from the deficiency of the last harvest in Scotland, and the failure of the crops of potatoes and oats in Ireland, he held that we were in a state of imperfect supply. In this state of imperfect supply, and under the circumstances hi
537
Mr. Whitbread
reminded the house that the right hon. gent, who had just sat down, had not, from the beginning to the end of his speech, said one word of granting relief to the West India planters. He had now placed the planters entirely out of sight, and recommended the measure on the ground of a scarcity which every one knew did not exist; a scarcity which his majesty's chancellor of the exchequer for
538
Mr. W. Smith
admitted that he had some time since made a communication to the chancellor of the exchequer, of his apprehension of an eventual scarcity in Norfolk. This was now several months, since. He strongly protested against the adoption of this measure, which was calculated to be materially prejudicial to the landed interest of the country, whilst at the same time it was in its very nature inadequate to the end proposed, that of affording any thing like substantial relief to the West India colonies and traders.
Mr. Wilberforce
declared that he thought there was reason to congratulate the house on the prospect which it then had of affording even a temporary relief to the West India planters; and endeavoured to convince the house that there was something like a spirit of party in the opposition to the question.
Lord Binning said a few words in reply.—A division then took place, when the numbers were:
For going into a Committee.
163
Against it.
127
Majority.
—36
When strangers were re-admitted, we found the house in a committee, discussing the propriety of coming to an adjournment on the question. The proposition was for some time resisted by the chancellor of the exchequer; he at length, however, declared that he would accede to the proposition of an adjournment, provided the rules of the house would admit of such a proceeding, under the circumstances of the case. The Speaker then acquainted the
539
pro forma
HOUSE OF LORDS.
Tuesday, May 24, 1808.
[IRISH CUSTOMS REGULATION BILL.]—
Upon the motion for the second reading of the Irish Customs and Fees regulation bill,
The Earl of Lauderdale
observed, that this was a bill which infringed upon one of the Standing Orders of that house, by which it was declared that any matter foreign to and having no connection with the purport of any aid, supply, or money bill, being introduced therein, and thereby fettering their lordships' discretion, was destructive to the rights of that house, and unparliamentary. The bill in question purported to be for the Regulation of Customs and the Fees of custom-house officers in Ireland; and it enacted that the right of taking 6
d.
d.
Lord Hawkesbury
said, that what had been stated by the noble earl, respecting the Standing Order of that house, applied to bills of aid and supply. He must admit that the bill before them was a money bill; but he conceived, that in respect to some particular bills, the order was not imperative but admonitory, and in the case under consideration, left it to the option of that house to put it in force, if their
540
The Lord Chancellor
thought that so far as this bill regarded duties on the customs of Ireland, it might properly be deemed a money bill. He could see no impropriety in first taking off the 6
d.
d.
Lord Holland
regarded the standing orders of very great importance. The noble baron (Hawkesbury) had taken considerable pains to draw all the distinctions his mind could suggest, when the standing orders of that house ought, or ought not, to be observed: for this purpose, he had gone through all the modes, and had defined at what time they were to be considered in the imperative. There could be no such distinction, for they must at all times be imperative; and their lordships might as well have no orders, if they could be thus frittered away, by leaving it to their discretion to consider them imperative or admonitory. He had no disposition to put any obstacle in the way of the present bill, other than resisting its infringement upon the orders of that house; for if the commons once found out a mode of sending up bills in that way which tended to a breach of the orders of that house, they might be induced to do so on some occasions highly dangerous to their lordships' privileges.
The Earl of Lauderdale
was surprized at what had fallen from the noble lord (Hawkesbury) in laying down a distinction, when the orders of that house should be considered imperative, and when admonitory. It was absurd to consider any Standing Order admonitory: that house might
541
[INDICTMENT BILL.]
On the question for going into a committee on this bill,
Lord Erskine
thought it his duty to oppose its going into a committee, considering it, as he did, an alteration in the law of the land, without any necessity whatever being shewn for it. It had hitherto been invariably the practice of the constitution to draw a distinction between an indictment found by a grand jury, and an information filed by order of the court of king's bench, or by the attorney general fix officio. It was now for the first time to be declared, that on informations as well as upon indictments, the parties were to be held to bail. The practice had hitherto been upon information, to summon the party by subpoena, and if he did not appear to issue an attachment, but not to hold him to bail, the attachment being discharged the moment the party put in an appearance. Under this bill, upon the information being certified, the party might immediately be held to bail. To such an alteration he could not consent, unless some strong necessity was shewn; and not a word had been stated in favour of this bill to prove any such necessity. It was nothing to the point, that the present attorney general would not commit any abuse of his power. They were to consider what future attorney generals might do under this bill;—the king might be deceived, and a worthless person might be appointed attorney general; or an attorney general might be deceived, and informations,
ex officio,
542
Earl Stanhope
said, he had waited a little while, that some noble and learned lord might have an opportunity of speaking, but he was astonished at their silence. They perhaps thought it more prudent to remain silent, when they could give no reason if they spoke. If the noble and learned lord on the woolsack thought what was assigned in the preamble a sufficient reason, he would produce his own expressions, not in that house, while in debate, but in an act of parliament of his own framing, which would give the lie to the reason mentioned in the preamble of this blasted bill brought up from the house of commons. That house ought to be reprobated for sending such a bill; it was as contemptible in its formation as it was wicked in its principle. The noble lord commented upon the similarity of title of this bill, and that of the 26th of the present king, which was produced from the infamous bill of Pepper Arden. This act of the 26th had not continued for many years when the noble and learned lord thought proper to introduce another bill, which also passed into a statute, and in the preamble of that statute it was expressed, that great grievances to the subject and a loss of justice had been occasioned by the former one. Now, the present bill said that great convenience and benefit had resulted from the former as well as the latter. He considered it as an infringment of the liberty of the subject, and one which deserved the utmost reprobation. He was surprised at the indifference shewn by that house upon such an important change being made in the fundamental laws of this realm. When he looked round the house, and saw, on all sides, the benches deserted upon such an important occasion, he could not avoid making one observation, that if any business had been transacted there, which might excite some curiosity about the father of a child; of
543
Lord Holland
rose, and expressed the utmost astonishment that no answer should be given to what had been stated by his noble friends. It was unparalleled in the history of this country, that so great a change should be made in the law of the land, without any necessity or reason but those stated in the preamble. His lordship here, with great eloquence, urged, as he had done on a former occasion, the danger of altering our laws, generally, for the purpose of obtaining the convenience of extraordinary laws made for the revenue. There were objections made by him and his noble friends which had not been answered, and in such an important change of those laws which had been handed down to us from our ancestors, and which attracted the admiration of mankind, it was requisite, he thought, that some necessity for such a change ought to be shewn by those who defended it. For his part, he considered it his duty to give a most decided opposition to such an innovation, he saw no necessity for the measure; and he thought there would be considerable difficulty in convincing him that there could be any necessity for this dangerous alteration. If the bill did not alter the law, but enacted what was already enacted, it was absurd,; and if the alteration was made, he could never assent to it, unless he was persuaded there was sufficient necessity for that alteration.
Earl Stanhope
said, that although he much commended the conduct of his noble friends, who had left that house because they would not be present when such a pernicious bill passed through the committee, yet he had staid himself; for, after the unjustifiable manner in which this bill had passed before their lordships, he had an inclination to see what their lordships would do in the committee. He then submitted several alterations, and in the course of the proceeding re-
544
ex officio
HOUSE OF LORDS.
Wednesday, May 25, 1808.
[INDICTMENT BILL.]
Earl Stanhope
observed, with respect to this bill, that he should wish to move that it be read a third time this day eight months, but as that motion would not be carried, he must confine himself to fixing a day, in order that noble lords might be aware of it, and when he hoped they would attend. He therefore proposed Monday. His lordship observed, with respect to trying a man in his absence, that a jury, if they found the defendant was not present to take care of his own defence, might acquit him, and that a jury would not be subject to aft attaint for an acquittal. After quoting at length some law cases, and reading several extracts from acts of parliament, for the purpose of proving the former practice and usage of the constitution, his lordship concluded by moving, That the bill be read a third time on Monday, and that the lords be summoned; which was ordered accordingly.
HOUSE OF COMMONS.
Wednesday, May 25, 1808.
[WESTMINSTER ELECTION—CASE OF PRIVILEGE.]
Sir Francis Burdett
, adverting to the communication which he had thought it his duty to make to the house on a former night, relative to certain proceedings in one of the courts below, which appeared to him to trench upon the Privileges of that house, informed the house that the practical consequences, for which it had been recommended to him to wait, had now taken place. He assured the house, that in bringing this question again before the house he had no interest in it, but what any other member would, and ought to feel, upon a subject affecting
545
Sir A. Piggott
expressed a wish to know, what were the exact circumstances of which the hon. baronet complained?
Sir F. Burdett
stated, that the practical inconvenience to which he now alluded was, an execution having been sent into his house, for what were said to have been expences incurred in taking the election for Westminster; for which he had not been a candidate, and of his nomination, or indeed election, to which he was almost a stranger till the event had taken place. The ground of the decision, too, was the fact of his having taken his seat in that house.
The Chancellor of the Exchequer
apprehended that his learned friend opposite, (sir A. Pigott), had not been in the house on the former night, when this case was brought forward, He had then stated, that whatever the decision might have been, the house was not in a condition to give any redress. The hon. baronet then stated, that the direction of the noble and learned judge was, that the person who appeared for sir F. Burdett and claimed seats for his clerks, should be adopted as his agent; because the hon. baronet had since taken his seat in consequence of that election. He (Mr. Perceval) then stated, as he did now, that the house was not in a condition to take advantage of this fact. Had this been the direction of the Judge, the direct and regular road of proceeding would have been to have applied by writ of error, or on the ground of misdirection on the part of the judge; if wrong or right, the ground of the decision would then have appeared on the record, and would have been seen by the house. The hon. baronet's counsel, however, not having adopted that mode, but having moved for a new trial, which had been refused, no way now remained for bringing the matter with effect before the house. It now appeared not to be a case of privilege, in which a member of that house, as such, was interested; but a common case of
546
Sir A. Piggott
declared himself to be perfectly satisfied that this was not a case in which the house could interfere. It was a proceeding in the regular course of justice. If the action in this case could have been entertained at all, it must have been on the ground that it arose out of a contract. The act which allowed the expences of erecting hustings, &c. in the case of counties, did not extend to boroughs; yet even there, candidates might agree that for their accommodation, or that of their voters, during a contest of 14 or 15 days, hustings should be erected, the expence of which could not reasonably be expected to fall on the high bailiff. The action, therefore, could only be on the contract so supposed to be entered into, and could of course have no relation to the election, so as to make it a matter of privilege to be taken up by that house. This must be a question either of fact or of law, and in either case it might have been brought before the court by demurrer, or by bill of exceptions, so as to have the ground of it appear on record. It behoved those who had the legal means of defence in their own hands to go before the judge in a regular manner. If they omitted to do so, it was not for that house to interpose. If the house should be of opinion that it would be improper that a candidate should be on any account at the expence of erecting hustings, let it be made the subject of a prospective regulation. But as that was not the case at present, this must be like any other suit, founded on a covenant, the effect of which must be construed by the jury.
Mr. Tierney
said, it appeared to him, notwithstanding what had fallen from his hon. and learned friend, and from the right hon. and learned gent. opposite, that the present was a question of privilege. He could not admit of the doctrine, that the house of commons was not entitled to interfere in the acts of omission or commission of the courts below, so far as the privileges of the members of that house were concerned. The case was this; the worthy baronet was returned without his knowledge, and without any previous consent on his part: the returning officer had no right to make a demand on any candidate for hustings; but a person whom he supposed to be the agent of sir F. Burdett having made use of
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l.
l.
Mr. Leycester
said, that the person who had been held as sir Francis's agent had called on the high bailiff, and, in the name of sir Francis, declared that he would not pay for the hustings; yet that this same person, day after day, asked, obtained, and availed himself of, the advantage of seats for the check-clerks, inspectors, &c. who were to attend to the hon. baronet's interests in the election. The learned gent, did not pretend to say what was the recommendation of the judge; but it was hardly probable, that it was such as had been represented, else a new trial, which had been moved for, would have been granted.
548
Mr. Bathurst
thought it impossible for the house to entertain a question on which they had no authentic information, the; recommendation of the judge, which could alone form the ground of the proceeding, not having been entered upon the record.
The Speaker
said, after what had passed in allusion to himself, it was necessary for him to put the hon. baronet right as to what he had stated on a former night. What he said was, that when any practical inconvenience did arise, if the hon. baronet continued to think that it involved a question of privilege, he should in that event lose no time in applying to the house. He had no hesitation in saying, that if any judge should recommend to a jury what could be construed into a breach of the privileges of that house, it was the duty of the house to resist, and to guide their course according to circumstances. As there was no motion before the house, he should only suggest two different modes of proceeding, both of which had been adopted in the reign of Charles 2. One was in the case of judge Weston, where an impeachment was ordered; and the other in the same reign, where that measure not being deemed necessary, the matter was allowed to drop without any further discussion. Those who thought the present a case of the most serious nature, would probably be of opinion, that the former of these was the preferable mode of proceeding; while others again might be inclined to think that the latter was the most desirable way of disposing of the present question. He had stated what were the modes of proceeding; and it was for the house to say, whether in this case the more or less serious mode ought to be adopted.
Sir Francis Burdett
said, the sources from, whence he derived his information as to the recommendation of the judge, were the notes of the short-hand writer employed to take down the trial, and the information of his counsel. He esteemed these as affording him sufficient foundation for bringing the matter before the house. The only thing he had submitted to the house was the instruction of the judge; that the circumstance of his taking his seat, a thing which was incumbent on him, was such an approval and ratification of the proceedings had under the election, as must subject him to the expence of the hustings. He felt himself by no means interested in the fate of this discussion. He esteemed it to be the cause of the house; and if he had taken a bill of exceptions.
549
[ROMAN CATHOLIC PETITION.]
Mr. Sheridan
presented a petition from the Roman Catholic inhabitants of the county of Wexford, praying to be relieved from the disabilities under which the Catholic body labour.—Sir John Newport presented a similar petition from the Catholic inhabitants of the city of Waterford.—Mr. Butler presented a similar petition from the Catholic inhabitants of the county and city of Kilkenny.—Mr. M. Fitzgerald presented a similar petition from the Catholic inhabitants of the county of Kerry.—Mr. Shaw presented a petition from the lord mayor, aldermen, and common council, of the city of Dublin against the Roman-catholic Claims. All which were ordered to lie on the table.
Mr. Grattan
then moved, "That the Petition of the Roman Catholics of Ireland, whose names are thereunto subscribed, on behalf of themselves, and of others his majesty's subjects professing the Roman Catholic religion, which was presented to the house upon Monday last (see p. 489) and then ordered to lie upon the table, might be again read."—The Petition was read accordingly; after which the right honourable gentleman again rose and addressed the house as follows:—"Mr. Speaker; the Petition which the house has just heard read contains the sentiments of the Catholics of Ireland. Not only that Petition, but the other petitions presented this day, speak the sense of that body. I may therefore fairly assume, in the course of what I have to say, that it does speak the sentiments of four fifths of the Irish population. The Petitions come from a considerable portion of your electors, having political power; forming a part of the United Kingdom; and applying to the constitutional organ for a legitimate object. In discussing the merits of the petitioners' claims, I should recommend to gentlemen to avoid any intemperate language, and to adopt a spirit of concord, that nothing may pass in debate which shall sharpen the public mind. Whatever decision the house may come to, upon the motion which I shall have the honour to propose, for going into
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quoad
quoad
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l.
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esto perpetua.
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*
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Mr. Secretary Canning
began by observing, that whenever a question of such magnitude as the present was brought before the house, it was in the greatest degree desirable that the deliberation upon such a question should be conducted in a manner best calculated.—Here the right hon. secretary was interrupted by a general cry of order! chair!
The Speaker
rose and said, that he felt it to be his duty to answer the appeal that had been made to the chair. He did think, that until the numbers which were the result of any division had been announced from the chair, the question was open to debate.
Mr. Secretary Canning
then proceeded to enforce the necessity of moderation and good temper in the discussion of a question like the present. The right hon. mover was himself an example of the moderation he so much recommended; and he trusted that the same temperate manner which had marked the right hon. gent.'s conduct that night, would, for the remainder of it, influence all that might be said on either side of the house, during the remainder of the debate.—Here the cry of chair! order! was renewed; when
The Speaker
again rose, and said, that he had to the best of his judgment given his opinion, and that he was willing to appeal to the house; or, if he was in error, to request their instructions.
Mr. Secretary Canning
then continued, and observed, that if he and his colleagues wished to go to a silent vote on this question, it was certainly not from any want of disposition to shew respect to the right hon. gent. who had brought forward the business in so able, eloquent, and can-
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Mr. Windham
.—Sir; the speech of the right hon. gent, who has just sat down, strongly reminds me of what lord Chesterfield says in one of his letters, when speaking of the tragedy of Cato. That accomplished nobleman, when criticising the tragedy of Cato, remarks that there is nothing in the two beautiful lines with which the poem opens:—
576
"The dawn is overcast, the morning; lowers,
"And heavily in clouds brings on the day—."
577
Lord Pollington
declared, that he never would give his concurrence to a measure, which, sooner or later, would endanger the Protestant establishment, by placing power in the hands of those, whose principal object it was to make converts to their own erroneous persuasion. He thought it most impolitic to bring forward, at such a crisis as the present, a measure which he knew to be generally obnoxious throughout the country, and should therefore vote against the motion.
Lord Milton
.—Sir, I am convinced, that the more this subject is discussed, the
578
Mr. Fitzgerald
, (knight of Kerry) said: Sir, I must acknowledge that, after the manner in which this question has been opened and supported, when no argument has been used against the motion, to offer any further observations in its favour, may appear a wanton intrusion on your time. However, as an unfavourable decision is foreseen, I should consider myself insensible to the duty I owe to my own country, and to the empire, if I did not express, in the strongest manner I can command, my conviction of the necessity, not merely of discussion, but of concession, on this most important subject. The right hon. gent. compelled to acknowledge the talents, the eloquence, and the moderation of my right hon. friend, has prudently abstained from, answering him, and has preferred to reply, by anticipation, to the speeches of others, in which he prophesies, that there will not appear the same moderation. Sir, if I abstain from that warmth, which this subject naturally excites, it is, because founded in justice, reason and truth, as I conceive the cause of the petitioners to be,
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Lord Castlereagh
.—Sir; I will endeavour to detain the house as short a time as possible. But I feel that I should deserve reproach, were I to give a silent vote upon the present occasion. I deprecate and dread the effect on the public mind, of discussing a question of so delicate and important a nature. The question is no other than this: are the catholics of Ireland—four millions of his majesty's subjects—in a state of freedom or of slavery? Are they to be considered in a state of proscription? I cannot conceive a question of which the agitation is better calculated to shake our efforts in the common cause. I must, however, do justice to the candour, manliness, and moderation of the right hon. gent, who brought forward the motion; for certainly the mode in which he delivered his opinions was well calculated to produce a spirit of conciliation. But, however much I deprecate the present discussion, so far from wishing to keep this question out of my view, I shall always adhere to the principles maintained by my late right honourable friend (Mr. Pitt) on the subject, and be ready to deliver my opinion whenever it is agitated. The conduct of that great man and his colleagues was very different from that of the gentlemen opposite. He went out of place, because he found he could not procure for the Catholics what he thought they were well entitled to; but, when out of office, he never embarrassed the government by agitating the question. The principles of the gentlemen opposite, on the other hand, led them to agitate and support the question to the extreme, when out of power; and to compromise and abandon it when in power, not with any view to the safety of the country, but for the safety of their own offices. If those gentlemen wish to shew that they are desirous of defending the country against her enemies, let them not bring forward a question, the agitation of which can have only the effect of increasing the number of her enemies. In their former attempts to bring on this question, they had failed. And when they came into office, they chose to avoid the main question, and to resort to the contemptible subterfuge of
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Mr. Windham
, in explanation, said, that the change which he referred to was, in the feelings of many of the Irish Protestants on this subject. He had not used any argument to reconcile his own conduct with respect to the question, nor had he thought any was wanted. When he and his friends attempted to keep back the subject, they had done it in a way the most conciliating to the Irish Catholics; and if the question should be pressed, they had reserved to themselves a right to speak and vote upon it, as they had ever done.
Lord Henry Petty
.—Sir, I entirely concur with the right hon. gent, on the opposite side, who has recommended us to follow the temperate example of the eloquent mover of the question; but I am sorry to say, I do not t: ink his friends seem to have profited by his admonition. If he
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in toto
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'Secanda marmora
Locas sub ipsum furens, et sepulchri
Immemor, struis domos.'
Sir John Cox Hippisley
observed, that as a noble viscount near him (lord Pollington) had been the only speaker who had, as yet, in the course of the debate, expressed any apprehension of the danger of the proposed concessions, he trusted his lordship's mind would be greatly relieved by adverting to the numerous authorities which had been cited in favour of the principles of Roman Catholics; and, on a question, of this nature; he trusted that the house would be of opinion that those authorities had a claim to particular attention, which were derived from distinguished prelates of the established church. Sir J. H. then quoted a passage from the bishop of Landaff's preface to his Theological Collections: 'The ruling powers, in 'Protestant and Catholic states,' says his lordship, 'begin, at length, every where 'to perceive, that an uniformity of senti-'ments in matters of religion, is a circum-
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Mr. W. Elliot
.—Sir; in supporting this motion, I earnestly wish to abstain from every thing like warmth or personality, in conformity with the recommendation of the right hon. gent, who, with such forcible arguments and splendid eloquence, opened this debate. I do not rise for the purpose of entering into any discussion on the general topic; but, in consequence of what has fallen from my noble friend opposite (lord Castlereagh), merely to advert to the circumstance of the Union, of which I may be supposed to have some official knowledge; and the nature of the expectation held out to the Catholics, in order to conciliate their acquiescence in that measure. My noble friend has said, that no pledge was given to the Catholics, that their full emancipation was to be the immediate consequence of this measure, in consideration of their support. It is true, indeed, that no bond was given to the Catholics on that point; but there were certainly expectations, and something like promises held out to them, which, in my mind, ought to be more binding than a bond. And so strongly was this idea felt by my noble friend, by my right hon. friend (Mr. Canning), and by a right hon. gent. now no more (Mr. Pitt), that they quitted office because they could not carry the measure; and when, upon Mr. Pitt's return to office, he opposed the going into the committee, it was not from any objection to the measure, but to the time. I therefore think, that my noble friend and my right hon. friend, must both feel themselves in an aukward situation this night, under the opposition they have given to the measure. The right hon. the chancellor of the exchequer, when attorney general in 1805, opposed it, upon the ground that it would be an infringement of the articles of the union, by one of which it was
602
Mr. Wilberforce
.—I entirely approve, sir, of the calmness and moderation recommended by the right hon. gent, who opened this debate, in a speech replete with the most splendid eloquence. I do not mean to attempt to follow him throughout the whole of his arguments. But, with respect to the time, I do not think the present a proper one, if there were no other reason than that it is impossible now to carry the measure. If the gentlemen opposite knew that they could carry it, I grant it would be a good time. But as they must be certain of the contrary, I think we ought not to go one step farther in this discussion. I consider it in the highest degree inexpedient, in times like these, to raise the hopes of the Catholics, when there exists not a single chance of our being enabled to gratify them. I sincerely deprecate a useless discussion, by which, in the present temper of the house, in the warmth of those party feelings which have
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Lord Henry Petty
in explanation.—What I stated was, that it was not the intention of myself and my friends, when in office, to bring the Catholic emancipation forward as a cabinet question. But that we reserved to ourselves the right, as members of parliament, of voting in its favour, when it should be brought forward by others.
Mr. Richard Martin
.—I confess, sir, I have never felt more pungent regret than at the discussion of this evening. Notwithstanding what has been said about moderation and calmness, I have never heard more inflammatory language, uttered with a calm voice and a sermonic tone, than what has come from the gentlemen on the other side of the house. Nothing like it has been uttered for a century within these walls. I cannot congratulate one of these right hon. gentlemen (Mr. Canning) on the speech which he has made, on the sentiments he has uttered, or on the cheers which he has received. Whatever may be his feelings of triumph on this occasion, I do not envy him. From the course which he and his colleagues have chosen to take, it appears to me, however, that the present rejection of the Catholic claims may be considered as final. They will not be again brought before parliament: let them mark my prediction. The Catholics will no longer trust you with the bait of a Petition. They will no longer expose themselves to the mortification and insult of having their Petition rejected without even a discussion of their claims. Nothing can be more absurd, or more distant from truth, than the assertion that the Catholic Petition has been brought forward by a party. The Catholics
605
Mr. G. Ponsonby
.—Sir; the hon. member who spoke last but one (Mr. Wilber-force), made a declaration which gave me much satisfaction: he said, 'that it was time for him to speak out.' Nothing ever gave me more pleasure; for in hearing his speeches, I confess I have often attended to them, but could never yet attain his perfect meaning. At the same time, I must confess, that there was some part of his speech which rather surprised me. He said, that he was a prodigious friend to the education of the Catholics, while he was an enemy to their claims in the full extent in which they had preferred them. I endeavoured to discover what was the conduct of that hon. gent, upon a late occasion, as to the education of the Catholic clergy, and I find, that he voted for the smaller sum instead of the larger for that purpose. Now, this is a strange mode of shewing his wish for the encouragement of that education. He acknowledged that he refused to grant the prayer of the petition, with prodigious pain to himself, and yet he loaded the Catholics with all sorts of epithets. I never saw a request denied to a suppliant with more apparent coldness and indifference in all my life. But he told us, there were circumstances and occasions when it was very unfit to discuss questions of this sort, and that they were attended with infinite mischief, because he is convinced that the majority of the people of this country, and of Scotland, are
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in limine,
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Lord Castlereagh
in explanation, said; Nothing, in the shape of a pledge, or any sort of understanding, took place between the government and the Catholics, which, could possibly fetter the discretion of parliament on the subject of the Catholic claims prior to the union. As to the two papers which were circulated among the Catholics of Ireland, and which have been considered as proceeding from the union, it is observable, from the papers themselves, they were not intended for the public eye. One of these papers is stated to contain a declaration, that those who then, and on that occasion, retired from the public service, considered themselves as pledged not to accept any office in government, until the Catholic question was carried in favour of the Catholics. Where can the house see that paper in an authentic shape? It was never issued here in such a shape as to make any individual at party to it in any regular manner. With respect to the other paper, I did state, that although that paper was not drawn up as an official communication, my lord Cornwallis communicated it to the Catholics in Ireland, as that which was understood to be descriptive of the feelings of those who retired from office. That is to say, that paper, so communicated by my lord Cornwallis to the Catholics of Ireland, contained what were supposed to be the sentiments of certain individuals who had then recently retired from government, who had felt themselves unable to bring that subject forward with advantage, or with any prospect of success. But the house will not forget that those very gentlemen, who, retired from their situations in government, because they could not succeed in their object in favour of the Catholics, stated, most unequivocally, that if the Catholic claims should be urged, hostilely to government, those very individuals who thus retired from government, not only would not support, but would strenuously oppose the assertion of such claims. Now, as to the other point to which the right hon. gent. has alluded, as to the administration of the duke of Bedford, he has told us that he, and not the duke of Bedford, was chiefly instrumental in advising this claim to be made; and even he admits, that the answer of the government of this country was, that they did not think
619
Mr. Windham
contradicted the statement of lord Castlereagh, respecting the motives which urged Mr. Pitt and his colleagues to abdicate the government in 1801.
Mr. Yorke
expressed a particular wish to know upon what authority the right hon. gent. (Mr. Ponsonby) grounded his statement relative to the disposition of the Irish clergy as to the future appointment of their Bishops; as that circumstance, if well founded, must serve to remove a principal objection to the Catholic claims?
Mr. Ponsonby
answered, that he made the statement upon the authority of Dr. Milner, who was a Catholic Bishop in this country, and who was authorised by the Catholic Bishops of Ireland to make the proposition, in case the measure of Catholic Emancipation should be acceded to. The proposition was this, that the person to be nominated to any vacant bishopric should be submitted for the king's approbation; and, that if the approbation was refused, another person should be proposed, and so on in succession, until his majesty's approbation should be obtained, so that the appointment should finally rest with the king.
The Chancellor of the Exchequer
.—Sir; considering the lateness of the night, and the state, of this question, as it stands upon the arguments which have been urged on either side, I think it will be unnecessary for me to detain the house any considerable length of time; I shall therefore compress what I have to say upon the subject as much as I can. The right hon. gent. (Mr. Ponsonby), was indignant that this subject should be taken up by a gentleman on the ether side of the house as a party question, and he himself disclaims party feelings and party motives in the discussion of it. I can only say, that gentlemen on the other side of the house can have no reason to be surprised that some
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accept
demand
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Mr. Whitbread
.—Sir; I shall not now trespass on the patience of the house, for two reasons: first, because it is much too late to expect attention; secondly, that if it were not, there are others better entitled
626
Mr. Whitbread
then continued:—I am not disposed, sir, to take the sense of the house upon the question of adjournment, for, to myself, individually, it is no great inconvenience to proceed, because what I have to say, is but short, and because it is chiefly in answer to what has fallen from the right hon. gent, who has just sat down, and who is the leading minister of the crown on some occasions; but, who, in connection with his colleagues, seems to have wished to have passed over in silence this question, after the eloquent, the wise, and, to my mind, convincing speech of my right hon. friend; that silence which followed it bespoke its character, which was, that it was unanswerable; the silence however, was, at last, broken; lest ministers should appear to the world incapable of giving it an answer; but it is extraordinary that such answer should come, not from the minister who is hostile, but one whom I believe to be, in his heart, friendly, to the measure. But although the right hon. the chancellor of the exchequer, and a noble lord in the other house of parliament (lord Hawkesbury), are averse from granting any concession whatever to the Catholics, at any time whatever, yet the right hon. gent. will give me leave to tell him, that notwithstanding the present plenitude of his power, the time is coming, and it is not very distant, when the Catholic claims will be conceded, and that perhaps, unanimously; or something very near it.—But, it has been often said, and said very wisely, because truly, that governments never will learn good sense by experience; it that can be said of any government in this world, it may
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Colonel Hutchinson
rose, amidst a general call for the question, and, having obtained a hearing, spoke to the following effect:—Sir, I think it not a little extraordinary, upon a subject of such vast importance to the Irish nation, and to the British empire, that gentlemen are so anxious to come to a decision upon the question, that they will not allow every one to deliver their sentiments upon it.—Sir, it is a subject which, in the present momentous crisis, calls most imperiously for the sentiments not only of the Irish members, and those of the British representation, but it does also demand at least some notice from the government. It is therefore with very great surprise, not unmixed with regret, that I have not heard from ministers any one argument against the claims of the petitioners; but what has created in my mind greater surprise, and made more impression on me, is, that not one British member has condescended to offer one single argument against the Petition. I take it for granted, therefore, that they have none to offer—if they had, an appeal for amelioration and protection from four millions and a half of your fellow subjects, would not be met with silence. Is this the way, I ask, in which you mean to pass it over? I should hope not. I should hope that you will not let it go forth to the Catholics of Ireland, that upon a petition stating disabilities and grievances, which, as subjects of the empire, they labour under; and praying that those disabilities might be removed, you dismissed those
637
General Montagu Matthew
.—Sir, I am sorry to find this house so anxious to come to a division on the question. I am also concerned, that, notwithstanding what has been urged by the right hon. gent, who so ably, so eloquently, and so liberally brought forward the claims of the petitioners, the house is determined to meet them with a silent vote. After the very handsome manner in which that right hon. gent. has, on the part of the Catholics, stated their readiness to vest in his majesty the supreme authority of nominating their bishops, I say I should have hoped this house would have gone into a committee. Ireland, however, has nothing to expect from the liberality or justice of the united parliament. [Here lord Castlereagh smiled.] I am sorry to see the noble lord laughing. He has, I assure him, not much cause for his mirth; for there is not an Irish county, town, or borough, that has not rejected him. The Irish people disown him. I should not have said so much of the noble lord, if it had not been for that laugh of scorn which he exhibited. The question, sir, is a serious one, and I do know there are many gentlemen who think differently from the noble lord, and who wish to speak upon the subject, I hope therefore that the house will agree to adjourn the debate.
Mr. R. Martin
.—I trust the house will yield to the motion of my honourable friend. I know many Irish members would speak, if the debate were adjourned; and they can throw new light upon the subject.
638
The question being loudly called for, the house divided, when there appeared,
For adjourning the Debate
118
Against
298
Majority against the adjournment
—180
Strangers were not re-admitted into the gallery, but we understand that, after a speech of some length from col. Hutchinson, in favour of the Petition, the question was again loudly called for, and the house divided upon Mr. Grattan's original motion for referring the Petition to a Committee; when there appeared,
For going into a Committee
128
Against it
281
Majority against the Petition
—153
The other orders of the day were then disposed of, and at six o'clock on Thursday morning the house adjourned.
List of the Minority.
Aberoromby, Hon. J.
Howard, colonel
Althorpe, viscount
Howard, W.
Anstruther, sir S.
Hughes, W. L.
Bagenal, W.
Hume, W. H.
Barham, J. F.
Hurst, R.
Bligh, T.
Hutchinson, C. H.
Bradshaw, A. C.
Laing, M.
Brand, T.
Lambe, W.
Browne, A.
Lambton, R. J.
Brown, D.
Latouche, J.
Burton, F. N.
Latouche, D.
Butler, C. H.
Latouche, R.
Butler, J.
Laurence, F.
Byng, G.
Leach, J.
Calcraft, J.
Lloyd, sir E. P.
Campbell, lord J.
Lyttleton, W. H.
Cavendish, lord G. H.
Macdonald, J.
Cavendish, W.
Maddocks, W. A.
Cavendish, G. H.
Mahon, S.
Cocks, E. C.
Mahon, viscount
Combe, H. C.
Martin, H.
Creevey, T.
Martin, R.
Daly, D. B.
Mathew, M.
Daly, J.
Mawle, W. R.
Dundas, C. L.
Meade, colonel
Dundas, R. L.
Mills, W.
Ebrington, viscount
Milner, sir W.
Elliot, W.
Milton, viscount
Fitzgerald, W.
Montgomery, colonel
Fitzgerald, Lord H.
Moore, P.
Fitzpatrick, R.
Morpeth, viscount
Foley, T.
Mosely, sir O.
Folkestone, viscount
Mostyn, Sir T.
Freemantle, W. H.
Neville, R.
French, A.
Newport, sir J.
Gower, earl
North, D.
Grattan, H.
Nugent, sir G.
Greenhill, R.
G'Brien, sir E.
Greenhough, G. B.
Odell, W.
Grenfell, P.
Ord, W.
Grenville, T.
Ossulston, lord
Herbert, H. A.
Parnell, H.
Hibbert, G.
Pelham, C. A.
Hippisley, sir J. C.
Pelham, G.
Horner, F.
Petty, lord H.
639
Philipps, R. M.
Somerville, sir M.
Piggott, sir A.
Stanley, lord
Ponsonby, rt. hon. G.
Stanley, col.
Ponsonby, hon. F.
Talbot, col.
Power, R.
Tierney, G.
Prittie, F.
Walpole, gen.
Pym, F.
Ward, J. W.
Quin, W. H.
Warrender, sir G.
Romilly, sir S.
Western, C. C.
Russell, lord W.
Whithread, S.
St. Aubyn, sir J.
Wharton, J.
Salusbury, sir R.
Wilder, col.
Savage, F.
Windham, W.
Scudamore, R. P.
Wilmington, sir T. E.
Sharp, R.
Wynne, sir W. W.
Sheridan, R. B.
Wynne, C. W. W.
Shipley, col.
Smith, G.
Tellers
Smith, J.
Temple, earl
Smith, W.
Fitzgerald, M.
HOUSE OF COMMONS.
Thursday, May 26, 1808.
[FIFTH MILITARY REPORT—MEDICAL DEIWRTMENT OF THE ARMY.]
Lord Folkestone.
—Mr. Speaker; I wish to put a question to the honourable gentleman, a lord of the treasury, opposite to me, and to make one or two observations connected with the object of that question. I came down, sir, to the house this day, with the intention of submitting these observations on the question for the third reading of the bill for renewing the Commission of Military Inquiry; but though I was here before the usual hour of commencing public business, I found that the Bill had been already passed. I therefore trust that the house will indulge me but for a few moments, though I should not be strictly regular in addressing them. The question, which I wish to put to the hon. member is this, Whether it is the intention of the treasury to adopt any measure in consequence of the Fifth Report of the Commissioners of Military Inquiry, respecting the Medical Department of the Army? And if they do mean it, I beg to suggest to them the necessity of caution and mature consideration, and of further inquiry, before they adopt the opinions and suggestions of the Commissioners. For it does happen to be within my knowledge, that, in the Report alluded to, much injustice is done to the exertions of a meritorious servant of the public; and if I do not say much unmerited censure cast upon him, I have no hesitation in saying that much deserved praise is withheld. The person to whom I allude is Mr. Knight, who holds the two offices of Inspector Ge-
640
l
l
641
Mr. Sturges Bourne
stated, that the lords of the treasury had the intention of taking some steps in consequence of the Report alluded to by the noble lord; and that they were already aware of the circumstances to which he had called his attention. They had, accordingly, referred parts of the Report to the War-office for further information; and as they were aware that great injustice would be done to individuals if the opinions of the Commissioners were wholly adopted, the noble lord might be sure due caution would be observed before any steps were taken. He concluded by bearing testimony to Mr. Knight's exertions.
The Secretary at War
said, that he was fully aware of the advantages which the public had derived from various alterations suggested by Mr. Knight, and adopted under his directions.
Mr. Freemantle
spoke likewise to the zeal and constant attention to his public duties which had always actuated Mr. Knight. He had known him for many years, and was sure that he was a meritorious servant of the public.—Mr. Vansittart and Mr. Calcraft said a few words.—Mr. Rose gave notice that on Monday
642
[MR. PALMER'S CLAIM.]
Mr. Bankes
proposed to refer to a Committee the Account presented yesterday, relative to the amount of Mr. Palmer's per-centage on the revenue of the Post-office. His motive in making this reference was, that he feared the return overrated what was to be properly only the per-centage on the net revenue.—After some explanation from Mr. Long and Mr. Rose, Mr. Bankes's motion was agreed to, and a Committee appointed accordingly.
[PETITIONS AGAINST THE ORDERS IN
Mr. Tierney
Lord Castlereagh
urged the propriety of proceeding to the further consideration of the Local Militia bill; at the same time, he left it entirely to the feelings of the right hon. gent. whether he thought that the business which he had brought forward ought to take the precedence.
Mr. Rose
stated that some of the witnesses, not expecting to be called upon on this evening, had not attended.—The Serjeant at arms having inquired, it was found that no persons were in attendance, and Mr. Tierney having declined to move any new order on the subject,
Mr. Whitbread
thought that the attendance of those witnesses should be enforced, not so much by way of punishment, as for the sake of example in future.
Lord H. Petty
supported the motion.
The Speaker
said, that the house had a right to compel the attendance of any witness, and it was for the house to consider whether their absence was wilful or accidental. If it was wilful, the course would be, to order them into custody; but if it was accidental, it would be for the house to order their attendance on another day.
Mr. Whitbread
643
HOUSE OF LORDS.
Friday, May 27, 1808.
[ROMAN CATHOLIC PETITION.]
The order of the day being read for taking into consideration the Petition of the Roman Catholics of Ireland, presented on the 12th of April, the said Petition was read by the clerk; after which,
Lord Grenville
rose and spoke as follows: My lords; I am now to bring before your lordships the important subject of the Petition which has just been read. I am sincerely sorry if its postponement to a later day than that which I had originally proposed has produced inconvenience to any member of this house, especially to those whose character and functions must give them peculiar interest in this debate, whichever side they may think it their duty to espouse. To their wishes I would gladly have shewn that attention to which they are so well entitled. But, for the sake of the cause entrusted to me, I was bound to consult also the convenience of others whose assistance on such an occasion I could not but be anxious to obtain. I have still, however, to regret the absence of one noble friend of mine (earl Grey), whose eloquence is so well calculated to adorn and to enforce any opinions which he honours with his support. That absence is owing solely to the same domestic circumstance which would before have prevented his attendance. He has particularly requested me to state this fact, and to declare to your lordships his full and complete concurrence in the motion which I am about to offer. A declaration which he was desirous that I should make, in order to obviate the possibility of misrepresentation; but which was wholly unnecessary to those who know his character. From an agreement with him on any subject I must always derive the greatest plea-
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650
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655
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665
The motion having been read from the woolsack,
Viscount Sidmouth
rose and said, that differing entirely as he did from the noble baron, by whom the motion had been made, he was desirous of submitting the grounds of that difference to their lordships' consideration. That the subject to which it applied was of "the most awful importance, and delicate in the highest degree," he most readily admitted; but he was utterly at a loss to account for the agitation of it at this time. The noble baron had on a former day distinctly declared that he had no share in advising it: by a noble earl (the earl of Moira) it had been deprecated in the strongest terms: both those noble lords were then apprehensive that the cause to which they were friendly, might be prejudiced by a discussion at the present moment: it was, indeed, impossible but that they must be conscious of what was clue to the opinion so recently expressed by parliament, and to feelings, the prevalence of which had been still more recently manifested throughout, the kingdom. The petitioners had therefore come forward under circumstances, which, in the opinion of some of their most powerful friends, reflected no credit on their prudence: he was, however, apprehensive that they had also subjected themselves to the danger of imputations on their public spirit and patriotism: not that a doubt-was entertained by him
666
667
668
669
* See Cobbett's Parliamentary History of England, vol. iv, p. 1342.
670
671
672
The Earl of Moira
said, that he could not let a moment pass, as soon as he had caught the attention of their lordships, until he had met and combated the opinion of the noble viscount in the outset of his speech, where he had taken upon him to assert, that there was in the petition, or in the manner or the time of its being presented, something that would justify a suspicion of the loyalty or public spirit of the catholics of Ireland. They had come forward in no underhand way, nor had they pressed their claims in any intemperate language. They had, in the most respectful manner, submitted to this house a manly statement of the grievances they laboured under, and asked to be relieved from them. What, then, his noble friend could have seen in that petition, or the circumstances of it, that could have warranted such an imputation, he was totally at a loss to conceive. The noble viscount had further objected, that the prayer of the petition was circumscribed, and related only to few and partial exemptions. He was of a very different opinion. He could not be brought to think, that the disabilities under which the catholics at present laboured, were either few in number, or partial in operation. But the noble viscount was apprehensive, that if even the present claims of the catholics were acceded to, they would not stop here. While that body was excluded from the participation of any of the rights and privileges of a British subject, he not only thought that they would not stop there, but that they ought not. The noble viscount had extolled the constitution, and was it unnatural that those who were so long witnessing its benefits should be anxious to share in it? Was it not an ambition natural to the mind of every Briton? and while the noble viscount poured out such eulogiums on the glorious Revolution, how
673
674
675
The Bishop of Norwich.
—My lords; I rise, for the first time in my life, to address your lordships, and I rise with unaffected reluctance; not because I entertain the smallest doubt respecting either the expediency, the policy, or the justice of the measure now under consideration; but, because, to a person in my situation, it must be exceedingly painful, (however firmly persuaded he may be in his own mind) to find himself impelled by a sense of duty, to maintain an opinion, directly the reverse of which is supported by so many wise and good men who belong to the same profession, and who sit upon the same bench with him. Important occasions however, sometimes arise, on which an individual may be called upon to avow his own sentiments explicitly and unequivocally, without any undue deference to the judgment of others. Such an occasion I conceive the present to be, and shall without further apology trouble your lordships with a few remarks.—I have considered, with all the care and attention of which I am capable, the various arguments which are urged against the Petition in favour of the Catholics of Ireland, which has, this day, for the second time, been presented and supported by the noble baron on the other side of the house, with his usual abilities, and at the same time, with that well known regard for the real interest of the Established Church, for its peace, its security, its honour, and its prosperity, which forms, and has always formed so distinguished a part in the character of that noble lord.—These objections, my lords, numerous as they are said to be, may all of them, I think, be reduced under four heads. In the first place, it is asserted, or rather strongly insinuated, that the religious tenets of the Catholics, are of such a nature as,
per se,
676
677
Vetabo sub iisdem sit trabibus.
678
679
magni stat nominis umbra
680
681
The Archbishop of York
could not adopt the opinion of his right reverend friend, for whose understanding and virtues he had the highest respect, nor relinquish the safeguards which our ancestors had found it necessary to establish against the principles of the Popish religion. If this Petition had only sued for toleration the most extended, he would have felt no difficulty in acceding to its prayer: for toleration was the key-stone of the reformed church. But no complaint of this sort had been made. The Catholics enjoyed their rights under the protection of the law, and he was glad of it; but he hoped parliament would always resist their attempts at acquiring political power; because, however temporal and spiritual power might be disjoined in theory, they could not be practically separated. It had been said, that Catholics ought not to be judged now by the sentiments which had been formerly held by people of that persuasion. If any material alteration in their articles of faith had taken place, it became them distinctly to shew it. But it was a well-known rule of that church, that all the canons remained in force that were not repealed by a general council; and, certainly, there were many objectionable points, that by this rule must be still considered as part of the Roman Catholic faith. He allowed that many Catholics had been eminent for virtue and piety. Who could hear the name of Fenelon without veneration? He admitted that men might live together very well in society, notwithstanding differences of opinion on speculative points, but he denied that parliament could be opened to the Catholics as long as they owned a foreign jurisdiction, and maintained that there was no salvation beyond the pale of their own church. Impressed with these sentiments, though he by no means regretted what the Catholics had already obtained, he thought it inconsistent with wisdom and sound policy to break down the remaining barriers.
The Bishop of Bangor
had no objection to the fullest toleration in every respect; but if the prayer of this petition should be granted, the Catholics would be on a foot-
682
utile,
honestum.
Errata
Lord Hutchinson
denied that this was a party question, or that any influence had
683
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Earl Stanhope,
in allusion to what had fallen from a right reverend prelate, admitted that a million sterling was a great deal of money to pay annually to him and his brethren. As to the mistranslation of the Bible, the papists were not perhaps far wrong, as far as respected the early versions. The garbled manuscript in the British Museum was a proof of this. The parts improperly translated having been written in a different ink from the true and genuine passages, time had consumed one of the sorts of ink, and the whole imposition was detected. But the bishops were very eager for uniformity: where was that uniformity in the church of England, when the differences in the Common Prayer Books of Cambridge and Oxford amounted to 3,600 and upwards? All the bishops ought to be ashamed of themselves. He begged pardon for saying 'all;' one respectable prelate had made a most logical, sound, and liberal speech on the present occasion, and had been most miserably answered by the priest who spoke last. When the privileges of three millions of people were under consideration, it was scandalous to be reading anonymous libels against them. He should have thought that the noble viscount on the cross bench (Sidmouth) might have been better acquainted with the rule of order, than to accuse the catholics of a want of patriotism, merely because they persisted in claiming what appeared to them to be their due. The noble earl then read a paper published by the English catholics, disclaiming all the mischievous doctrines imputed to them, in which they were joined by the Irish catholics, and concluded by observing, that there could not be a libel urged against them to which that paper was not a complete answer.
Lord Mulgrave
was satisfied that the discussion of this subject could produce nothing but irritation and mischief. He contrasted the conduct of the noble lords opposite when in power, with their conduct now they were out of power. When in power, they were ready to relinquish even a comparatively insignificant measure to relieve the catholics; now they were out of power, nothing would content them but a full and complete concession.
686
The Earl of Buckinghamshire
opposed the motion, because he was averse to the whole principle of the measure. He had every reason to love the people of Ireland, but he was convinced that a compliance with the prayer of the petition would be so far from tranquillizing that country, that it would have a quite contrary effect. The catholics now wanted seats in parliament; but this was only to be the step to a great deal more: He gave it as his opinion, that if the parliament was opened to the catholics, eighty dissenters from the church of England would be returned for Ireland; and this opinion was founded on the great increase of the catholic freeholders. Adverting to the negative proposed to be allowed to his majesty in the appointment of Roman-catholic bishops, he observed that this was no more than giving a concurrent jurisdiction with Buonaparte, who commanded the pope. The principles of the catholics, he thought, ought to be watched with jealousy. He quoted an observation in the publication of Dr. Milner, in order to shew the spirit which still appeared to prevail among them. This was a remark on the statue of his majesty, or his predecessor, at Cork; which was said to be painted yellow because the king was an orange-man, and sided with a few thousands of his subjects against as many millions. He agreed perfectly with the noble baron who introduced the subject, that it would be wise to make a provision for the catholic clergy. This, and a proper plan of education to enlighten the minds of the people, would be the best boon for Ireland. The granting of the present claims could do little good, and might do a great deal of harm.
The Duke of Norfolk
supported the motion. Adverting to the power of rejecting their Bishops, which the Catholics were
687
Lord Erskine
was of opinion, that parliament had gone on too far in the system of concession to the catholics now to make a stop, consistently with the object which gave rise to that system. He could not conceive the principle upon which the catholics were admitted into the army, the navy, and certain civil departments of the state, while they were to be excluded from those appointments for which the petitioners sought. The house should, he thought, go into the proposed committee, and there it might be considered how far the prayer of the petition might be acceded to, and whether any and what conditions were necessary to accompany the grant of the prayer of the petitioners in order to secure the Protestant establishment, in solicitude for the maintenance of which he would yield to no person or party whatever.
Lord Hawkesbury
had hoped, from the conduct of the learned lord when this subject was last before parliament, and from his knowledge of the laws and constitution of his country, that he would vote against the motion, and not for it. For his own part, he should fail in his duty if he did
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Lord Holland
did not think it necessary to enter into a discussion of the various polemical points which had been brought forward in the course of the debate. The question for parliament to consider was, what was the state of Ireland, and what the remedy proper to be applied to it in the present exigency? If the good will of four millions of the people was necessary to the safety of Ireland, if Ireland was necessary to the safety of the empire, this measure ought to be acceded to. With the danger of the present day he contended that no preceding period could fairly be compared. The reign of William III. which had been quoted, had no analogy whatever to it, and therefore the existence of the penal laws, at that or any other period that had been mentioned, could present nothing in their justification at this moment. These penal laws were, in his mind, always odious, but peculiarly so at present, when all the pretexts for their original enactment ceased to exist. The noble lord vindicated the book of Dr. Milner against the misrepresentation of it which appeared in the speech of one of the reverend prelates; but he contended that whatever that book, or the book of any other individual, however high in talent or character, might contain that should be reprehensible, could not fairly be alleged as a ground of censure upon the whole sect of which that individual might be a member. He replied to the assertion, that the peasantry of Ireland cared not a farthing about, the object for which the higher orders of their persuasion were now seeking. What, he would ask, bound a man to the glory of his country? What made the lower orders rejoice in the honours and achievements of their generals and admirals? What made their hearts beat with exultation at the mere mention of such names as Nelson's? What, but the principle and feeling which must excite pleasure in the Irish peasant's breast, when informed of the advancement and distinction of one of his persuasion and way of thinking. As to the attempt made to identify the Revolution with the abominable code against the catholics, he protested against the identity. He also protested against the Revolution, as being provoked by ca-
692
Lord Auckland
said that he should state very shortly the motives of his adherence to the opinion which he had expressed so fully on a former occasion. He had even been inclined to give a silent vote; for it did not appear to him that any new circumstances had arisen, or that any new arguments had been adduced to shake or controvert the solemn decision of 1805. Without entering into any details, he felt himself compelled by his sense of public duty to resist any further indulgences to the Roman-catholics of Ireland. From 1778 to 1793 concession had followed concession, and every indulgence had produced a new demand; "Increase of appetite had "grown by what it fed on." Many of those concessions had been wise and just, and he had materially contributed to some of them; but he had always considered the concessions of 1793 as going beyond the line of prudence; and to the effect of those concessions he attributed the embarrassing anomaly in which Ireland was now placed, with reference to the other parts
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The Earl of Suffolk
vindicated the character and conduct of the Roman Catholics of Ireland and Great Britain from the aspersions thrown upon them by their enemies, and gave his hearty support to the motion.
Lord Grenville
made a short reply. The proposition relative to the future appointment of catholic bishops in Ireland was, to his knowledge, long in contemplation, although the catholics had not, until lately, thought proper to make it public. It was a proposition, indeed, known to his right hon. friend now no more (Mr. Pitt), and was one of those guards and conditions with which he meant to accompany the concessions which he proposed to grant to the Catholic body. With regard to the nature of the proposition itself, he should rather think, that instead of presenting the names of three persons to the king, for his majesty to choose one from among them, as had been mentioned, it would be more eligible to present but one name, and if that were rejected, another, and so on in succession until bag majesty's approbation should be obtained.—As to the personal animadversions in which some noble lords had thought proper to indulge, he really thought that whatever reflections might be made upon his character, it would have been quite secure upon the question at present before then-lords, through his solicitude for which he had twice sacrificed the highest offices in the state.—Upon a division, the numbers were:
Contents
74
Non-Contents
161
Majority
87
695
List of the Minority.
Dukes of
Lords
Norfolk,
Somers,
Somerset,
Braybrooke,
Bedford,
Grenville,
Argyle.
Upper Ossory (earl of)
Marquises of
Buckingham,
Mendip (v. Clifden)
Stafford,
Dundas,
Headfort.
Cawdor,
Earls
Carrington,
Derby,
Butler (earl of Ormond),
Suffolk,
Essex,
Hutchinson,
Shaftesbury,
Erskine,
Albemarle,
Crewe,
Jersey,
Ponsonby of Imokilly.
Oxford & Mortimer,
Cowper,
Stanhope,
Proxies.
Lauderdale,
Dukes of
Grafton,
Wentworth Fitzwilliam,
St. Albans,
Spencer,
Devonshire.
Glandore,
Marquis of
Fortescue
Bute.
Conyngham,
Earls
Donoughmore,
Clanricarde,
Rosslyn.
Thanet,
Viscounts
Carlisle,
Hereford,
Tankerville,
Duncan.
Guildford,
Bishop of
Hardwicke,
Norwich.
Charlemont,
Lords
Orford,
Say and Sele,
St. Vincent,
St. John,
Grey.
Grey De Ruthyn,
Viscount
Spencer of Wormleighton (marquis of Blandford),
Anson,
Lords
Stawell,
Clifton (e. Darnley)
Lucan,
King,
Foley,
Ponsonby (earl of Besborough),
Southampton,
Bulkeley,
Holland,
Fife,
Hawke,
Yarborough,
Hungerford (earl of Moira),
Glastonbury,
Breadalbane.
[PROTEST AGAINST THE REJECTION OF
The following Protest was entered upon the Journals:
"Dissentient, 1st, Because we are fully satisfied that the removal of the unmerited and degrading exclusion to which a most numerous and valuable part of the community have been so long subjected, and the imparting to the whole people of this united kingdom all the privileges and duties of the British constitution, would be a measure of unquestionable justice and wisdom.—2d, Because we conceive that this determination would in itself afford the best security for our civil and religious
696
"Dissentient; Because the fitness of yielding to, or resisting, in the whole, or in part, the prayer of the petition, so respectfully submitted to the consideration of the house, depended upon principles so momentous, and details so complicated, as, according to the ancient practice of parliament, should have been referred to the more deliberate consideration of a committee. And because the petition having proceeded spontaneously from the catholics of Ireland, supported by large
697
HOUSE OF COMMONS.
Friday, May 27, 1808.
[LIFE ANNUITY PLAN.]
On the motion of the Chancellor of the Exchequer, the house resolved itself into a committee on the resolutions of the committee respecting the transfer of 3 per cent, stock for Life Annuities.
Mr. Tierney
submitted a variety of calculations, tending to shew the inefficacy and inutility of the measure. If ever there was a period, when a man would be disinclined to increase his income at the expence of his capital, it must be at that period when there was a tax upon income, and none upon capital. He objected to the plan particularly, because it interfered with the sinking fund, and with the faith of the country pledged in consequence of that measure; but he did not do so in the abstract; he objected to it because it was indirect infraction of that measure, without being calculated to produce any advantage to the country. He was against any interference with the sinking fund, unless it was to restore it to the state in which it stood previous to the year 1802. In that case the public would begin, in the next year, or in the year following, to feel the advantages of it; but by the present measure this alleviation of the public burthens must be protracted for a number of years. The act stipulated that the commissioners should, from time to time, from year to year, lay out large sums in the purchase of stock. It was no answer to those who had contracted on the faith of these annual purchases, and who might have done so with the view of a speedy sale, to say, 'there is no harm done, in the course of ten years perhaps things will be restored to their proper and ordinary course.' Having once adopted the present measure, it would be in vain to say that the sinking fund was intended to be held sacred; for in agreeing to this proposition the house practised one of the grossest infractions upon it. The right hon. gent, dwelt on the extravagant inducement which this measure held out to
698
l.
l.
The Chancellor of the Exchequer
had no expectation, that the progress of the measure proposed would be very rapid. The present was not a plan which he would have been inclined to propose, as affording resources for the service of the year; but he was convinced, from the information and applications he had already received on the subject, that it would be one of permanent advantage, and of which, though no question of revenue were connected with it, the advantages would be generally and satisfactorily felt. He was convinced there would be applications for liberty to avail themselves of this measure, from sources of which the right hon. gent. had at. present no idea. There were persons in the constant habit of taking annuities for themselves and others, to whom this measure would present the means of saving all the original expence of such a contract. Stript as the present measure, would be, of every expence of this kind, he was satisfied it would prove an object of public as well as of individual advantage. The right hon. gent, had not said any thing as to the morality of the measure, which was a strong objection to it on a former night; he should not, therefore, enter on this point, but should content himself with observing that there appeared to him to be nothing unusual, or inconsistent with political economy, in allowing persons the opportunity of providing for themselves in this manner. What were Friendly Societies? Were they calculated for the advantage either of the widow or of the children? They surely were not; but by them part of the income was laid aside for the benefit of the person himself, without any regard to his family. The right hon. gent. alluded to the proposal of sir George Saville, which, though not adopted by parliament, was still an authority in favour of such a measure. As to the idea of this being any infraction on the measure of the sinking fund, he admitted that it was so in manner and in words, but not at all
699
Lord H. Petty
said, that the right hon. gent, admitted he expected no great immediate effect from the measure, but that it would be gradual. In this his lordship could hardly agree; for if he at all understood the plan, the right hon. gent, expected the funds to rise; and whenever they did rise to a certain height, the measure was to cease. His lordship thought the plan altogether objectionable, in a political, moral, and financial point of view. He asked, would it be proper, or rather would it not be dangerous in the extreme, if the great bulk of the property of this country were allowed to be thrown into annuities? The right hon. gent. had referred to the case of benefit societies as one in his favour. If he (lord H. Petty), however, had been to select a case on the other side, he did not think he could have hit on one more completely in favour of his argument. In the case of benefit societies, part of the income of a week was converted into a fund for the support of the person during life; thus, a temporary was converted into a more permanent fund. But by the present measure, the permanent was to be converted into the temporary fund. His lordship was decidedly of opinion, that this measure would be prejudicial not to those alone who were induced to try its effect, but also to the public creditor. The right hon. gent, surely did not mean to state that these annuities would not be transferred, and of course would, in a different shape, bring the same quantity of stock again into the market? Did he mean to contend that it might not happen, that, from the casualties of human life, a person who had purchased an annuity might not he obliged to sell it again? Thus, though government might be ready to grant to persons wish-
700
Mr. Huskisson
stated, that with respect to the noble lord's plan, it would not be interfered with by this measure, because certainly the Sinking Fund would in ten years be in as good a situation, notwithstanding the operation of this plan, as under that of the noble lord. This plan was not to hold out an inducement, but to afford an opportunity to persons wishing to purchase annuities, to invest their capital in that manner; and it would undoubtedly be a great convenience to many individuals, who might have to bequeath annuities to dependants, to have their lands discharged of such annuities by purchases under the present plan. The hon. gent, then shewed by calculations, that the operation of this plan would accelerate the period of the redemption of the public debt, without producing the inequality in the effect of the sinking fund apprehended by the noble lord.
Mr. Davies Giddy
thought that the plan now proposed would have the effect of encouraging a greater degree of frugality in the lower classes, by affording them an opportunity of applying their savings, with perfect security, to the increase of their incomes, and that in this point of view the benefit would overbalance any evil which might arise from it.
Mr. Biddulph
did not think there would be any sound objection to the adoption of this plan; on the contrary, he was friendly to its adoption, because in a free country like this there should be as great a diversity as possible of option afforded to persons wishing to lay out their capital with security; and to show that he was friendly to the adoption, he proposed that the annuities should be rendered more marketable by facilitating the insurance of the lives of the nominees, by taking off the tax upon the policies of insurance upon such lives.—The Resolutions were then agreed to.
[BANK OF IRELAND.]
The house went into a committee of ways and means; in which,
Mr. Foster,
after detailing the history and progress of the Bank of Ireland, stated, that it was proposed that the bank capital
701
Mr. Tierney
objected to the resolution, on the ground that he disapproved of the principle of borrowing money from the bank whilst the restriction of specie existed, and he thought this a bad money-bargain for the public.
Mr. Foster
replied, that this million was to be raised by the bank proprietors or from subscribers, and would be bona fide an. increase of their renewal. The motive of the renewal of the charter was not with a view to any money bargain, but to secure the existence or the company, to discount at five per cent, for the public.
Mr. Parnell
objected to the renewal of the charter, because it would remove the transactions of the bank out of the controul of parliament.
Mr. Bankes
stated, that the committee whose report he had had the honour to submit to the house, were of opinion that the benefit to be attached to the paper of the national banks of England and Ireland, by its exclusive credit, was not expedient to be continued longer than the exigency of the times required. It was net fit that the hands of the legislature should be tied up, whether the circumstances of the country-were so materially changed as to throw an additional benefit into the hands of the bank or not. He thought that ten, or at most fifteen, years addition, was sufficient to be granted at present.
Mr. M. Fitzgerald,
in order to give some idea of the benefit that was to be derived from an accredited issue of paper, stated that one banking-house in Ireland set up on the price of a captain's commission in the dragoons, and that they afterwards had afloating capital to the amount of 490,000
l.
702
The Chancellor of the Exchequer
maintained that the liberality and loyalty of the bank of Ireland had not any the smallest reason to be called in question. The addition was only one million Irish currency; and the security which it gave to individuals, and the benefit to the public by the gratuitous management of its debt, were ample reasons for the renewal of its charter.—The Resolutions were then agreed to.
[SUGAR-DISTILLATION.]
On the motion of lord Binning, the report of the committee respecting the use of Sugar in Distilleries was brought up; and the house resolved into a committee for the recommitment of the two first Resolutions. On the first Resolution being read,
Mr. Coke
repeated his former objections to the measure, and contended that the apprehension of scarcity was unfounded, and had arisen from the conduct of the West Indian merchants, and the discussion of this subject. He denied that the last harvest was short, and stated as a proof of that, that the price of corn was not higher than was necessary to afford a fair profit to the farmer. He contended, that if this measure were to be continued for only two years, there would not be produced the same quantity of bread corn; that the right hon. gent, would be responsible for all the consequences, and would be the first minister to prevent by his measures the poor from being able to procure bread. He should therefore object to the measure in every stage.
Mr. Hibbert
contended, that it was neither the growers of corn, nor the growers of sugar, that were particularly concerned, in this question. The consumers of corn, the manufacturers, and all who wished well to the country, were the persons most concerned; and as the supply which the country had from importation for some years past was now stopped, it was the more necessary to take measures to provide for making up that supply. The agriculture of the country was not adequate to make up for that deficiency, and therefore there could be no reasonable objection to the introduction of some part of it from the West Indies.
Sir James Hall
said, that great part of what he had to offer on this subject had been anticipated by gentlemen who had already spoken upon it and in particular, by the chancellor of the exchequer foe Ire-
703
Mr. W. Smith
was extremely sorry to differ upon this subject from the hon. gent, who began this discussion, with whom he was very much in the habit of agreeing. No man could doubt the existence of partial scarcity. He had documents, received earlier than the discussion of the question, to prove that fact, and which from their strength he did not think proper to read. These accounts he had received from parts of Scotland with which he was connected. The late crop of barley was short, and though there was no scarcity of wheat, there was a scarcity of barley, and an universal scarcity of oats in the country; as might be collected from the price of oats in the market, which was now
704
s.
s.
Mr. Yorke
condemned the interference of parliament with the agriculture of the country. Great Britain and Ireland must be able to produce sufficient for their consumption, if their agriculture was not to be interfered with by impolitic measures of this description. The shutting of the ports of the continent against us would amount to a bounty on the improvement and extension of agriculture, not only with respect to corn, but the cultivation of hemp. This measure he considered as a dangerous experiment, and agreed with the hon. gent, who spoke last, that no hope should be held out to the West India merchants that this measure should ever again be resorted to. He did not see why a certain sum might not be lent to the West Indies upon adequate security, to enable the proprietors to turn their lands to the production of other articles. He would even
705
Mr. Davies Giddy
considered it of the highest importance to encourage the agriculture by exportation, consumption in breweries and distilleries, and in every possible mode. He was, however, of opinion, that in times of necessity the legislature had a right to interfere and prevent every other consumption of corn, in order to save it for human food; but whilst he admitted this right, he contended as strongly, that nothing would so legitimately give that right as the deficiency of human food. The reason why he thought that agriculture ought to be encouraged, was because nothing could make a country so truly great as to render it independent, for articles of necessity, of any other nation. He should never, therefore, consent to any interference with the agriculture of the country for any object of external interest.
Mr. Barham
re-asserted and vindicated some of his former statements, respecting the motives of the opposition to this measure, and argued at considerable length in support of it.
Mr. Hawkins Browne
argued that some means should be devised for taking oil some of the redundant stock of sugar. If the effect of the measure should be to injure the landed interest, no gentleman would consent to it; but the object of the measure was, to prevent the consequences of a scarcity if the next crop should not be a good one.
Sir John Sebright
could not avoid entering his protest against this measure, and declared, that though he was one of the landed interest, he did not object to this measure on any narrow view, but from the opinion that it was fraught with injury to the agriculture of the country.
Mr. H. Lascelles
recalled the attention of the committee to the real question before them. The resolution under consideration, was, whether the use of corn in distilleries, from the 1st of July to the 1st of October should be prohibited. During that period the distilleries usually were stopped, so that no injury could be done thereby to the landed interest. He could not see why the measure should not be re sorted to, vesting in his majesty's minister a discretion as to the continuance of the prohibition; because they would be bourn
706
Lord Binning
agreed to the amendment made by his hon. friend.
Mr. Portman
enumerated the inconveniences that would be suffered by distillers, if the use of corn were to be prohibited in distilleries on the 1st of July, both in consequence of the corn they had on hand ground, and of the loss they would sustain from the cattle, which were now fed upon grains in warm houses, being exposed to the effect of the open air.
Mr. Whitbread
wished merely to state the ground of the vote which he meant to give. He should certainly support the amendment of his hon. friend, because he thought, that if any effect at all were to be expected from the measure, it must be by adopting that amendment. But as he was an enemy to the measure in any shape, he should feel himself bound to oppose the Resolution in chief.
Mr. Coke
declared his intention to follow the example of his hon. friend, and to vote for the amendment, and against the Resolution.—The house then divided: For the Amendment 89; against it 71. Majority 18. After which, the period of the commencement of the prohibition was fixed for the 15th of June for Scotland, and the 20th for Ireland.
HOUSE OF LORDS.
Monday, May 30, 1808.
[ROMAN CATHOLIC PETITION.]
Viscount Sidmouth
rose for the purpose of calling their lordships' attention to a question of considerable importance, as it regarded a fair and true statement of what might in the course of discussion be uttered in that house. It was a standing order (although their lordships very properly did not enforce it) that no report should be given of their debates. Yet if their lordships permitted these reports to be given, still it was incumbent upon every person giving such report, that he should do it in a fair, correct, and impartial manner. His lordship thought himself very much misrepresented in having sentiments attributed to him which he abhorred and detested. The misrepresentation he complained of was contained in 'The British Press' newspaper, published last Saturday, giving an account of what passed in debate in their lordships' house on Friday night, during the
707
[ORDERS IN COUNCIL.]
Lord Auckland
made a few observations on what he conceived to be the tendency of the Orders in Council, as proved by the documents on the table, to injure the trade of the country; it appeared by an Account upon the table, of Exports and Imports for the quarter ending the 5th of Jan. last, that our exports had considerably diminished, compared with those of the corresponding quarter in the preceding year. He thought it highly necessary, that the house should be in possession of the fullest information upon this subject; and for that purpose he should move for an Account of Exports and Imports from and into the port of Loudon, with the duties and drawbacks, distinguishing British manufactures, &c. for four months, up to the 1st of May 1808, and similar accounts for Liverpool, Bristol, Glasgow, Hull, and another port.
708
Earl Bathurst
had no objection to the motion, but contended that the Orders in Council ought not to be represented as the cause of the diminution of our trade in the quarter ending the 5th of Jan. as that was effected by orders given in the preceding quarter, which orders were issued in consequence of the rigorous execution of the enemy's decrees against our commerce. It was as a remedy for the latter evil that the Orders in Council were resorted to.
Lord Grenville
contended that it was clear, from the documents on the table, that our trade had materially diminished; our exports in the quarter ending the 5th of Jan. 1807, being 5,500,000
l.
l.
709
Lord Hawkesbury
contended, that the diminution of exports alluded to could not be fairly imputed to the Orders in Council; as there was only one month in the quarter, that of Dec., which was subjected to their operation, and in that month there was no diminution compared with the corresponding month in the preceding year. The diminution, therefore, was to be attributed to other causes, and these were the effects of the decrees of the enemy. With respect to America, he denied that the Orders in Council had any effect in producing the embargo, it being now well known that that measure was resorted to in consequence of the new and more rigorous decrees issued by the French government, and the expectation that retaliatory measures would be adopted by the British government. It could not of course be expected, that he should say any thing respecting the present state of the relations between this country and the United states; but this he was entitled to say, that it was the earnest wish of his majesty's ministers to maintain that friendship and good-will with the United States, which was so beneficial to both countries, and to adopt, every measure for that purpose that was consistent with the maintenance of the dearest rights and the best interests of this country.
The Earl of Lauderdale
maintained, that the Orders in Council were held out as a measure of immediate efficacy, in inducing the enemy to revoke his decrees, and that, they had failed in their intended effect.
The Lord Chancellor
urged, that, whenever the question was argued, it ought to be argued in this point of view, namely, what would have been the effect of the enemy's decrees upon our commerce if the decrees in Council had not been issued, ft was not enough to say there was a diminution of commerce now; but the question was, what would have been the diminution under the continued operation of the enemy's decrees, if the measure of the Orders in Council had not been resorted to?
Lord Holland
contended, that the diminution being shewn after the Orders in Council had operated, it lay upon those who supported those orders, to prove that such diminution resulted from some other cause.
710
[INDICTMENT BILL.]
On the question for the third reading of this bill,
Earl Stanhope
thought it ought not to be proceeded upon in so thin a house, and moved to discharge the order.
Lord Ellenborough,
after having insisted, as he had done on a former occasion, that the principle of the bill was misunderstood and misrepresented, and that he considered the opposition to it no better than a tub thrown out for the purpose of catching popular applause, added, that he could not avoid observing, that he, as chief justice of the king's bench, was entitled to some degree of respect, but he had been grossly calumniated by an individual of that house having compared him to those monsters, who in former reigns had disgraced the bench of justice, such as Scroggs, Jeffries, &c. But he should treat the calumny and the calumniator with contempt. On a former occasion he had been blamed for his taciturnity, for which he would not apologise to that individual, but he would explain the reason to that house.
Earl Stanhope
disavowed any intention, on his part, to impute the smallest misconduct to the noble and learned lord; he had said, and he had a right to say, that such monsters and villains as Scroggs and Jeffries had filled the office of judge; but it was impossible for him to have found any resemblance between them and the noble and learned lord; and if that noble and learned lord felt any resemblance, it was more than any other noble lord was disposed to do in that house. The rash misconception and precipitancy which had been applied to what had fallen from himself, convinced his mind that it might be improper to delegate the power proposed by that bill even to that noble and learned lord.
The Earl of Moira
objected to it, observing that the operation of the bill would
711
The Lord Chancellor
observed, that the noble lord's objection was too general, inasmuch as it would apply to the general operation of the law in holding to bail; but the fact was, that reference was always had to a man's circumstances, and the amount of bail regulated accordingly. His lordship shortly detailed the provisions of the bill, respecting which it was for the house to decide.
Lord Erskine
repeated several of his former objections to the bill, and contended that no necessity had been shewn for making any alteration in the law as established by our ancestors. He particularly objected to that part of the bill which placed the attorney general on a level with a grand jury, and authorized the holding to hail upon information filed
ex officio.
Lord Ellenborough
went over some of his former arguments in favour of the bill, and with respect to informations filed by the attorney general, contended, that the reason of the thing required that it should neat be merely a notice to the party to run away, but that there should be the means of compelling the party to answer. With respect to the objection, that the attorney general was not compelled to receive affidavits of the facts on which he filed an information, it perhaps might be thought expedient by the court of king's bench not to hold a man to bail on such an information unless it was supported by an affidavit.
Lord Holland
contended, that no inconvenience had been shewn to have resulted from the present practice which it was at nil necessary to remedy. He objected therefore to making an unnecessary alteration in the law. He had a right to suppose in arguing this question, the case of an attorney general being the instrument of a tyrannical government, and then the provisions of this bill might prove highly injurious to the liberty of the subject.
Earl Stanhope
objected to the bill upon similar grounds. He had expected that the noble and learned lord would have acknowledged the statement respecting the expressions used by him to have been erroneous.
Lord Ellenborough
still thought that the expressions were improperly applied to him.
712
Earl Stanhope
again denied that the expressions were intended to be applied to the noble and learned lord, and objected to any reference to expressions used in a former debate.
HOUSE OF COMMONS.
Monday, May 30, 1808.
[IRISH HABEAS CORPUS SUSPENSION.]
Mr. Sheridan presented a petition from Mr. James Tandy, wine-merchant, of Dublin, stating that above three years since, without any crime or misconduct whatever on his part, he was suspected by the Irish government of treasonable practices; that he immediately surrendered himself and underwent several successive examinations before the privy council, at which he answered fully and truly every question put to him; that after having been detained three weeks in the custody of a king's messenger, without any cause explained to him, he was committed, under a warrant from the Chief Secretary of the Lord Lieutenant, to the common gaol of Kilmainham, where he was confined for three years, and treated with peculiar harshness and severity; at the end of which period he was liberated without being brought to trial, without being acquainted with the nature of the alledged charge against him, or informed who were his accusers, though he had repeatedly and urgently applied to know the same; that he had suffered severely in health, &c. and praying relief.—The petition was ordered to lie on the table.—Mr. Sheridan afterwards presented other Petitions of a similar nature from Bernard Foy, who had been confuted 18 months in the Newgate of Dublin; Thomas Ridgeway, an English merchant, who had been a considerable lime confined in Kilmainham gaol; and Henry Hughes, confined in the ' same prison.
Sir A. Wellesley
said, he rather believed the government of the country had good grounds for confining those several persons: it was about the period of the last rebellious insurrection which broke out in Dublin.
Mr. Sheridan
observed, that the mere declaration of the right hon. baronet, that he 'rather believed' the government of the day had good grounds for confining these petitioners, was rather a vague mode of
713
[FIFTH REPORT OF MILITARY INQUIRY.]
Mr. Rose, pursuant to his notice, begged to call the attention of the house to that part of the Fifth Report of the Commissioners of Military Inquiry, which seemed to reflect upon the conduct of the Board of Treasury, from the year 1796 to 1799, as if that Board had been, as insinuated in the Report, inattentive to its duty, in controlling the expenditure for the hospital department. The right hon. gent. then shewed, that the Treasury Board had not been negligent of its duty on that head, as would appear from the paper for which he meant to move. He then bore, testimony to the merits and integrity of the Apothecary General, who had supplied medicines to the army on more reasonable terms than the Apothecaries Company did to the navy, and concluded by moving, "That, there be laid before the house copies of all proceedings of the Lords of the Treasury, between the 1st of Dec. 1790 and the 31st of August 1799, relative to payments made to the Apothecary General for medicines and surgical instruments supplied to the army,"—After a few observations from Mr. Yorke, in corroboration of the testimony in favour of the Apothecary General's conduct, and calling on the house to suspend all judgment upon this report till the whole of the case should be before them; the motion was agreed to.
[SMALL POX PREVENTION BILL.]
Mr. Fuller
rose to move for leave to bring in a bill to prevent the spreading of the Small Pox infection. It was not his intention to attempt enforcing the vaccine inoculation. He would leave that open to the operation of its own merits. But with respect to the Small Pox, it was often found that the infection was widely spread from the modern mode of treating that disease;
714
[BANK OF IRELAND.]
Sir John Newport
rose to bring forward his promised resolution for declaring catholics eligible to fill the high offices of the Bank of Ireland. Of all the restrictions which the penal laws of Ireland had imposed upon the catholics, he commented on the absurdity of enacting that the creed of a Director in a commercial establishment should be a bar to the exertion of his talents in promoting the interests of the concern; or that, in appointing a director, the proprietors of such a concern should be bound, in the first instance, to inquire into his form of worship. Ireland was the only country in Europe where this was the case. But, in the act for establishing the Bank of Ireland, no such restriction appeared; and it was only in the charter made out in consequence of that act, that any idea of religious restriction was introduced. By an act of 1793, the Irish parliament had very much relaxed those restrictions which precluded Irish catholics from holding certain offices, and
715
l.
716
Mr. Foster
said, the Irish bank was placed on the same footing with, the bank of England, and he did not see why a distinction should take place in one country which was not proposed for the other. He deprecated thus bringing forward old oppressions to countenance new innovations. In proposing hereafter a renewal of the charter, he did not intend by any means to heap new burthens on the catholics; he would leave the charter just as it stood at present, and if the catholics found themselves aggrieved, they might petition parliament, which they did not do now. He concluded by moving, that the house should proceed to the other orders of the day.
Mr. Windham
observed, that as the right hon. gent, said he did not mean to exclude the catholics, he hoped he would support the Resolution. As the old penal laws were repealed, why not repeal this? No one surely could say this was so serious a state matter as to endanger the existence of the constitution or the church.
717
The Chancellor of the Exchequer
said, he did not see the utility of altering the law; there was surely no grievance in continuing the same law to Ireland which was in force here. If any alteration was to take place, the time would be when the charter was about to be renewed, and not now to engraft a new bill on the old bill. He did not desire that the new charter should prejudice the Irish catholics; on the contrary, he had no objection to enter a declaratory clause in future, giving the legislature a power of interfering in their defence.
Mr. Martin
was glad the right hon. gent, had it not in his intention to re-enact the penal code. He thought our ancestors had as good reasons for their severity as we had now for our exclusion, and he was sure posterity would repay us as we repaid those who went before us. The case of Ireland did not apply to this country at all, where the majority were protestants, but in Ireland he would venture to say the principal merchants were catholics.
On the division there appeared: For the amendment (it; Against it 61.—Maiority 3.
list of the Minority.
Abercromby, J.
Milton, viscount
Anstruther, sir J.
Montgomery, C.
Aubrey, sir J.
Moore, P.
Bagenal, W.
Newport, sir J.
Barham, J. F.
Parnell, H.
Bradshaw, A. C.
Petty, lord Henry
Brand, T.
Phillips, R. M.
Combe, H. C.
Piggot, sir A.
Creevey, T.
Ponsonby, rt. hon. G.
Dundas, R, L.
Ponsonby, Hon. G.
Ebrington, viscount
Power, Richard
Eden, W. F. E.
Russell, lord W.
Elliot, W.
Sharp, R.
Estcourt, J. G.
Shipley, W.
Grattan, H.
Smith, W.
Greenough, G. B.
Talbot, R. W.
Halsey, J.
Temple, earl
Herbert, H. A.
Templetown, visc.
Hippesley, sir J. C.
Thornton, H.
Horner, F.
Tierney, G.
Hume, W. Hoare
Vansittart, G.
Kempe, T.
Vernon, G. G. V.
Latouche, R.
Walpole, hon. G.
Lawrence, F.
Ward, hon. J. W.
Leach, J.
Warnender, sir G.
Lefevre, C. Shaw
Western, C. C.
Lemon, sir W.
Whitbread, S.
Madocks, W. A.
Windham, W.
Martin, R.
Wynne, sir W. W.
Maule, W. R.
Tellers.
Milbanke, sir R.
C. W. Wynne
Miller, sir T.
J. Calcraft.
[LOCAL MILITIA BILL.]
The house then went into a committee on the Local Militia bill. On the reading of the nineteenth
718
Mr. Spencer Stanhope
stated that a person might remove from one district to another where there would be no ballot, and where he could not get into a volunteer corps, they being full. This man being perfectly free, would receive more wages than the other.—Nothing was done on this suggestion.
l.
719
Ayes 31; Noes 107.—Majority 70.
Lord Temple objected to the clause subjecting the Local Militia to martial law, when called out on temporary duty, and proposed, that a court martial should have the power of inflicting upon them any punishment, excepting corporal punishment, which should not be inflicted upon them without the consent of his majesty, conveyed through the lord lieutenant of the county. Lord Castlereagh contended, that it would be improper to hare one law for the Regular, and another law for the Local Militia. Lord Temple afterwards moved a clause, providing that no sentence imposing a corporal punishment should be carried into execution, till it had received the approbation of his majesty. The clause was supported by Mr. Windham, Mr. C. W. Wynne, sir G. Warrender, and Mr. Lyttleton; and opposed by sir James Pulteney, the Solicitor General for Scotland, Mr. Ellison, and Mr. R. Dundas. On a division, the numbers were: For the Amendment 14; against it 101.—Majority against the Amendment 87. Several verbal amendments were made in the progress of the bill through the committee. The house resumed, and the Report was brought up, with an understanding that the bill should be recommitted on Friday next, so far as respects the new clauses proposed by lord Castlereagh.
HOUSE OF LORDS.
Tuesday, May 31, 1808.
[IRISH CLERGY RESIDENCE BILL.]
On the third reading of this bill, an amendment was proposed by the earl of Moira, to save the privileges of the peers, archbishops, and bishops of Ireland, with respect to chaplains; which, after some conversation between his lordship, lord Hawkesbury, Harrowby, and Redesdale, the duke of Norfolk, the lord Chancellor, and the bishop of Limerick, was agreed to with a slight alteration; as was also a clause proposed by lord Harrowby to obtain returns with respect to the residence of the clergy, after a few observations from the archbishop of Cashel, and lords Redesdale and Hawkesbury. The bill was then passed.
[IRISH GLEBE HOUSE BILL.]
On the report of the Irish glebe house bill being presented, the duke of Norfolk objected to the amendments made in the committee,
720
HOUSE OF COMMONS.
Tuesday, May 31, 1808.
[BANK OF IRELAND BILL.]
Mr. Foster
presented a bill for regulating and prolonging the Charter of the Bank of Ireland, and for enabling the governor and company of the said bank to advance a loan of one million and a quarter for the service of his majesty.
Sir J. Newport
complained of the precipitancy with which this bill was forced upon the house. It was, in his mind, a measure of too much importance to be thus hurried forward; and, for one, he had strong objections to it altogether. First, because he thought it was founded on the worst bargain that ever was made for the public, namely, a loan of a certain sum of money to be advanced by the Irish bank to the government of the country, at 5 per cent, the highest rate of interest which the law allowed them to charge upon discounts on any tradesman's bills in this country. Secondly, because, as the Finance Committee had suggested regulations with respect to the bank of England highly advantageous to the public, he wished them to have an opportunity of considering and recommending similar regulations with respect to the bank of Ireland, before the charter was renewed or prolonged. Overtures had been made to himself, while chancellor of the Irish exchequer, for a renewal of the charter; but he had set his face against it, and the only bonus he could see that the right hon. gent, had obtained for the public by this bargain, was, that the bank agreed to forego any claims they might have had for managing the public debt; but surely the government of Ireland was not at so low an ebb of credit as not to be able to borrow this loan of so large a sum, on better terms than the humblest trader paid for discount of his bills at their counter.
Mr. Foster
said, that, so far from precipitating this measure without allowing time to consider it, the documents had been on the table of the house above three weeks.—The bill was read the first time.
721
[CONDUCT OF SIR HOME POPHAM.]
Mr. S. Lushington
(member for Yarmouth) rose and spoke as follows:—Before I proceed, sir, to state the grounds of the motion which I shall shortly have the honour of proposing to the house. I wish in a few words to call to their recollection, those circumstances which originally induced me to bring this transaction to their notice. I am the more anxious to do this, because it has very unfairly been said, that I made a personal attack on the hon. captain without giving him any notice of my intention of so doing. It will be in the recollection of the house that an hon. baronet (sir Francis Burdett) some months since made a motion for an account of the Droits of Admiralty without any previous notice, and the chancellor of the exchequer requested him to postpone it to the following day for the purpose of having time to consider of it. At that time I had not the honour of the slightest personal acquaintance with the hon. baronet, but being apprehensive that the motion, as it was then worded, would not attain his object, I followed him out of the house, and suggested some alterations, which might comprehend the Droits to the Crown as well as the Admiralty Droits, as the former much exceeded the latter in amount, and added, that I myself knew an instance of gross misapplication of that fund The case of the Etrusco occurred to me, but distrusting the accuracy of my memory, I went the next day to Doctor's Commons for the purpose of ascertaining whether my recollection of the case was correct. On this head I was soon quite satisfied. Being unavoidably delayed till rather late, on my entrance into the house, I found the hon. baronet on his legs making his motion. I immediately inquired of a noble lord (Ossulston) and an hon. gent, near me (Mr. Brand), if sir Home Popham was in the house, as I did not know him by sight. Being answered in the affirmative, I determined to state the case, if any objection should be made to the hon. baronet's motion. To my great surprize the chancellor of the exchequer positively asserted that no instance of the misapplication of these funds had ever taken place. In reply to this statement, I mentioned the leading features of the case of the Etrusco; and, sir, I shall ever consider it my duty to make known to this house every misapplication of public money, which may come within my knowledge; and in this instance I was more particularly called
722
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*
*
† Here is a memorandum that this letter also could not be found.
724
reside
private charter party,
cover
in appearance,
725
bonâ fide.
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731
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732
jure coronœ,
l
jure coroœ
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Sir Home Popham.
—Before I reply to the various charges brought forward against me by the hon. gentleman, I trust that the house will indulge me with a patient hearing, while I offer a few preliminary observations, which are the more necessary to the vindication of my character, as they relate to circumstances immediately arising from the original question, or brought forward in this house since its, first discussion. I wish not to detain the house by frivolous and irrelevant platter, but to oppose facts to calumny, and to combat prejudices and falsehoods with no other weapons than truth and plain dealing. The persecution which has been exercised against me for several years past must be strong in the recollection of every member of this house; but of all the exertions which have been
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752
The Chancellor of the Exchequer
asked the hon. mover, whether he meant to bring a charge against sir Home Popham or the government?
The Speaker
put it to the house, 'whether there could be a doubt that the motion, as it was worded, conveyed a personal charge against, sir Home Popham.—Sir Home having retired,
Mr. Long
complained of the manner in which the hon. gent, had brought forward this charge against the treasury. If the hon. gent, would prefer a distinct charge against himself, he should always be ready to meet it; if against his late right hon. friend (Mr. Pitt), there were others in the house much better qualified to defend that illustrious and lamented character than himself. Of many of the circumstances mentioned by the hon. gent. he was perfectly ignorant until the agitation of this subject. He was ignorant that any charge of smuggling had been imputed to the hon. captain, for no such charge had been made in captain Robinson's memorial; he was ignorant that the hon. captain had pleaded in bar to an action, the illegality of the transaction in which he had been concerned. The hon. gent, declared that this was a misapplication of the public money, and that his principal object was to prevent a recurrence of that misapplication in future. He then proceeded to state, that the hon. captain had deceived the treasury, and had acted under that delusion. This he positively denied. The treasury had not been deceived. He was willing to take the whole responsibility of the affair on himself; for on the closest re-examination which he had been able to make of the subject, he was satisfied that the treasury had acted on the soundest principles; that they must have done what they did, even to an indifferent person; how much more to a man so well known by the services he had rendered to the public! What was the case? After a litigation of ten years, a part of the property was restored to the neutral proprietors; a
753
754
Mr. Calcraft
declared that he should never be deterred by the dread of recrimination from submitting what he esteemed it to be his duly to offer to the house. He was sorry the gallant officer could not be present; but as what he had to say would depend on the documents alone, he could easily inform himself on the subject. He had stated on a former night, that the appointment of that officer to be captain of the fleet under admiral Gambier had created the utmost disgust throughout the nary. He did not state so without documents on which to ground his assertion; and he thought he could not do better than read a letter which he held in his hand, addressed to admiral Gambier on this occasion. The hon. gentleman then proceeded to read a remonstrance to lord
755
Mr. Wellesley Pole,
who contended that there was no connexion between the observations of the hon. gentleman and the question before the house; at the same time declaring, that he was perfectly ready to meet the hon. gent. upon the topic to which he had referred, whenever it should be brought regularly before the house.
The Speaker
observed, that as the expressions used by the hon. gentleman on a former occasion had been adverted to, he was perfectly in order in explaining these expressions, and the grounds upon which he had used them. It would be for the hon. gent, however, to decide how far his statement ought to be carried for the purpose of such explanation.
Mr. Calcraft
was not disposed to proceed further on the subject, as his object had only been to shew that the case he had urged was supported by undoubted authority. He should conclude by declaring that, as the case of his hon. friend seemed to him to be fully made out, he should vote in support of his resolutions.
The Advocate General
(sir John Nicholls) would not discharge his duty to the house, nor to the memory of that illustrious individual who was now unfortunately no more (Mr. Pitt), if he did not state to the house the grounds of the opinion upon which he had recommended the grant. Ever since this subject had been first mentioned, he had felt personally embarrassed with respect to the matter. It had been said, that the grant had been made upon a reluctant report from the king's advocate; but so far from that having been the case, the report concluded without expressing any opinion, which, on so novel a case, the law officers who signed the report were not competent to give. On so grave a question as the exercise of the inquisitorial power of that house respecting the expenditure of the public money, it was important to keep in view the object of the motion. That object was a censure on the conduct of a late administration for an improvident grant of money, in order to prevent a similar act in future. It was unfortunate, for any individual to be the
756
757
l
l
l
l
l
Mr. Windham
said, before he went into the general question, he would set aside some of those abstract topics which had been urged as a kind of stoppage to inquiry. These topics were two in number;
758
759
760
l
l
The Chancellor of the Exchequer
did not feel it necessary to say much after the very able speeches of his right hon. and learned friends. He differed from the right hon. gent, who had spoke last, as to the propriety of separating the act of the treasury from the consideration of the merits of sir Home Popham, although he
761
762
Mr. Whitbread
said, that the ground on which the misapplication of 18,000
l
763
l
l
After a short reply from Mr. Lushington, the house divided,
For the Resolutions
57
Against them
126
Majority
—69
764
HOUSE OF COMMONS.
Wednesday, June 1, 1808.
[BUDGET—LOAN.]
The house having resolved itself into a committee of Ways and Means,
The Chancellor of the Exchequer
said, that before he stated the terms upon which he had contracted for the Loan for the service of the present year, he should shortly recapitulate the different heads of Supply and of Ways and Means, viz.
SUPPLIES.
£.
Navy
17,496,047
Army
19,439,189
Ordnance
4,534,571
Miscellaneous
1,750,000
East India Company
1,500,000
Swedish Subsidy
1,100,000
Vote of Credit
2,500,000
Total joint Charge
£.
SEPARATE CHARGES OF GREAT BRITAIN.
Deficiency of Malt, 1806
275,845
Interest on Exchequer Bills, 1808
1,400,000
Exchequer Bills not funded
4,024,200
Five per cents, 1797, to be paid oft
153,696
5,853,741
Total Supplies
54,173,548
Deduct Irish proportion of Supply and Civil List
5,868,515
Total to be defrayed by Great Britain
£.
WAYS AND MEANS.
Duty on Malt and Pensions
£.
Bank Advances
3,500,000
Unappropriated Surplus of the Consolid. Fund at 5th April
726,876
Estimated Surplus of ditto, to 5th April, 1809
3,500,000
Surplus, Ways & Means, 1807
2,253,111
War Taxes
20,000,000
Lottery
300,000
Exchequer Bills to be issued to replace Bills not funded
4,500,000
Do. for the East India Company
1,500,000
Exchequer Bills, part of 10,500,000
l.
1,161,100
Loan
8,000,000
£.
Supplies
48,305,033
Surplus of Ways and Means
£.
765
After thus recapitulating the various heads of Supply and of the Ways and Means for the year, the Chancellor of the Exchequer proceeded to state to the committee the terms on which he had contracted for the Loan. The sum borrowed for England and Ireland was ten millions and a half, of which eight were for the service of this country. The whole sum was to be funded in the 4 per cents, and the contractors for every 100
l.
l.
s.
d.
l.
l.
s.
d.
l.
l.
l.
l.
l.
l.
For the Interest of the Loan
£.
For the Interest of Exchequer Bills funded
253,247
Making a total of
728,783
For this Annual Charge he meant to provide in the following manner:
Short Annuities fallen in
£.
Annual Saving on the Management of the Debt
65,000
Increase upon the Assessed Taxes
120,000
Stamp Duties
170,000
£.
The Chancellor of the Exchequer next proceeded to state the effect which had been produced by the financial measures adopted in the course of the year, and contended, that from funding four millions of exchequer bills, when stocks were at 63½, and by borrowing ten million and a half in the four instead of the three per cents, there had resulted a saving to the public of four millions of capital debt; and that by the single measure of contracting for the loan in the four per cents, there was a saving of 3,100,000
l.
l.;
766
Mr. Tierney
said, he observed, that there was one million of the loan for Ireland still to be provided for: 1,500,000
l.
l.
Mr. Huskisson
alluded to the terms on which the two funds might be redeemed; and argued, that the bidding in the four per cents, was, from that single circum-
767
l.
s.
l.
s.
l.
[CONDUCT OF MARQUIS WELLESLEY— CARNATIC QUESTION.]
On the motion of sir Thomas Turton, the order for resuming the adjourned debate on the Carnatic Question (see p 392), was read. No person rising to speak, the question was put on the first Resolution, and the gallery was cleared for a division; but Mr. Sheridan having suggested to sir T. Turton to withdraw his Resolutions of fact and distinct charges, in order to bring the whole matter more satisfactorily to issue on the general question, whether lord Wellesley's conduct in the transactions with respect to the Carnatic, was or was not consistent, with justice, or with the character and honour of the British nation? a debate arose on this proposition, on which strangers were again admitted. When the gallery was re-opened,
Mr. Wellesley Pole
was speaking. He had no objection to come to issue this or any other night upon any charge the right hon. gent, or any other person, might have to prefer against lord Wellesley. He would not sit silent when it was insinuated that his noble relative or his friends wished to stifle inquiry. It was no evidence of a disposition to blink the question, that lord Wellesley's friends were desirous to come to the vote without provoking a fresh debate. The debate on the former night had closed with a speech from an hon. member (colonel Allan), who had been an eye-witness of the transactions in the Carnatic, and who was in no way connected with lord Wellesley, declaring the whole of the matter contained in the charges to be gross and unfounded calumnies. In the full confidence not only of the innocence, but of the highly meritorious conduct of lord Wellesley, he was ready to
768
Mr. Sheridan
regretted that the hon. gent had so totally misconceived him. He had never said that that hon. gent. or any of his friends, were anxious to blink the question; but he had said the very reverse. He had said, too, what he would repeat, that moving the previous question was not the way to obtain for the noble marquis the honourable and satisfactory investigation so much wished for by his friends. It was not directly meeting the very serious charges brought against that noble lord. As to the part he took in the present question, the hon. gent. knew well that he could not be influenced by any other motive than a sense of public duty. As to the fraternal intemperance of the
769
Mr. Wellesley Pole
stated, that when the hon. baronet had opened his Resolutions, an hon. friend of his (Mr. Wallace), gave notice that he would move the previous question on the Resolutions of fact, and a direct negative on the criminating Resolution, for which he proposed to substitute a resolution of approbation.
Sir John Anstruther
thought it a most extraordinary proceeding, that after the course just stated should have been laid down in the presence of the right hon. gent, a fortnight since, and he had heard it, and was ready to speak on it without exception, he all at once came forward this night to reverse all that had been done, and substitute a general question. Nothing but the previous question would be a proper proceeding on some of the Resolutions. The others were to be met directly in the most decided manner.
Mr. Wallace
felt himself warranted by the practice of parliament in proposing the previous question on the Resolutions of fact. To the criminatory Resolution he proposed a direct negative, to be followed up with a Resolution of approbation. There could be no question that a decision on these Resolutions would fully convey the sense of the house. The hon. baronet who opened the charge, and every other person who spoke on the question treated of it in its full extent.
Sir Thomas Turton
considered that his Resolution ought to be agreed to without a question. On the fourth Resolution, which was criminating, he thought the house ought to go into a committee. Finding that the Resolutions were to be met in this manner, he should divide the house on every one of them; and on the fourth, criminating lord Wellesley, not personally, but in his acts, he should again state to the house his reasons for confirming the Resolution.
770
The question being called for, the house divided on the first Resolution. Two divisions then took place in succession. That on the first Resolution was
For the previous question
102
For the Resolution
18
Majority
—84
On the second Resolution, the numbers were
For the previous question
109
For the Resolution
21
Majority
—88
For about an hour after this strangers were excluded from the gallery. On our return we found
Mr. G. Johnstone
addressing the house, and condemning in strong terms the conduct pursued towards the young prince of the Carnatic, Ally Hussian, who had been, for no crime, punished with greater severity than was merited by the guilty person who had preceded him; and no man could entertain a doubt as to the manner in which he came by his end, after he had been given into the power of another prince. It had been asked, whether the government, of India would put a young man upon the throne of the Carnatic, who was suspected not to be cordially their friend? If there was any foundation for that argument, it was one of much greater validity for excluding Omdut ul Omrah. The father, who possessed his inheritance in the greatest splendour, had much more means of doing mischief than his son. An hon. gent, who spoke on a former debate had greatly misrepresented the fact when he said the Nabob of the Carnatic owed his power to the East India Company. At one time it was owing to the assistance the Company received from the nabob Wallajah, that our existence was preserved along the coast bordering on his territories, when the French attacked us near Fort St. David. It was said the nabobs were only a sort of lords, and that they had no authority in the country. The very contrary of this was the fact. The nabob was a legitimate sovereign, and the East India Company acknowledged him as such, by holding territory from him.—The hon. gent, then entered into a history of various transactions in India, to shew that it was contrary to the principles and practice of our government at former periods, to keep possession of the territory of native princes. At the conclusion of a war with Tippoo Sultaun, his territories, which we had taken possession of during hostilities, were restored to him. In op-
771
Mr. Whitshed Keene
entered into a defence of the government of India, in depriving the nabob of his dominions; because he had shewn a manifest disposition to favour and aid the French. The greatest abuses, he said, existed in the Carnatic. The hon. member then went so far back into the history of the Carnatic as the year 1768, and pointed out such abuses as he thought rendered the interference of the India government highly necessary. He spoke at considerable length in exculpation of the noble marquis, and in favour of the previous question. He enumurated the important services he had rendered his country, which were manifest
772
Mr. Grant
confessed he had little to say upon the general merits of the subject, after it had been so fully discussed by several gentlemen on both sides of the house; but as he understood that there were many other gentlemen who were anxious to debate the last Resolution, as well as himself, he should propose, from the lateness of the hour, to postpone the further discussion upon that branch of the question till an early day.—[A cry of go on! go on!]— The hon. gent, resumed, by observing, that the question, as it at present stood, was reduced simply to, whether in his conduct the noble marquis was actuated by a sense of justice, of necessity, or of policy. The hon. gent. then entered into a history of the interference of France, by sending agents to Tippoo Saib, which was held by the governors of India as a ground for their interference in the affairs of the Carnatic. He detailed the gradual series of encroachments made by the British government in the affairs and territories of the nabobs, until the period that we in fact assumed the sovereignty of their territory. In our first intercourse and treaties, we had considered that power as a principal; but at length, by our unjust encroachments, we became in fact ourselves the principals, and reduced them to the situation of vassals to ourselves. We deprived the sovereign of all his political consequence, and of the power he originally possessed. Such conduct on our parts might be reconciled to our policy, and those principles of aggrandizement which characterized
773
774
Mr. S. R. Lushington.
—Mr. Speaker; differing as I do entirely from the hon. member who has just sat down, from the hon. baronet who opened the debate on a former night, and from the hon. member (Mr. G. Johnstone) who spoke from the floor, I shall state the reasons for that difference, for the consideration of the house. Without following each of those, hon. members through the lengthened detail of their speeches, I shall endeavour to reply to the propositions they have laboured to establish, and which were, I believe, in abstract these: that in the beginning of the connexion between the East India Company and the family of Mahomed Ally, the Company were indebted to them for their preservation and protection in the Carnatic; that in the progress of that connexion, the Company received from Mahomed Ally repeated proofs of kindness and generosity; but that his government and that of his son and successor, Omdut ul Omrah, was distracted by the
775
776
777
778
779
780
781
782
783
784
785
786
787
788
789
790
791
792
793
794
795
796
797
The house then became clamorous for the question, when a division took place:
For the previous question
128
For the Resolution
17
Majority
—111
Before the gallery was opened, the house again divided on the fourth Resolution,
For the previous question
124
For the Resolution
15
Majority
—109
Sir Thomas Turton,
on his return into the house after this division, observed, that the numbers on his side were so few, that he. should not now proceed to move
798
Mr. Wallace
said, that after the complete defeat which the cause of the hon. bart. had sustained, he might well forbear moving any Resolution of approbation; for what approbation could be stronger than that testified by the majorities with which the hon. baronet's Resolutions had been rejected? He saw no reason, however, for entering into any further discussion on a future day; but would now read the Resolution with which he intended to close the business. It was as follows: "That it is the opinion of this house, that the marquis Wellesley and lord Clive, in their conduct relative to the Carnatic, were influenced solely by an anxious zeal and solicitude to promote the permanent security, welfare, and prosperity, of the British possessions in India."
Sir T. Turton
determined not to proceed any further, but moved that the other orders of the day be now read, intimating, that this day fortnight he should move his other two Resolutions. The Chancellor of the Exchequer and sir John Anstruther were perfectly indifferent when the hon. baronet should move them. What had passed in the debate of this night, and in the former debate, had completely shewn how unanswerable were the arguments which had been urged on their side; and they were confident that when the public saw the state of the divisions, after so many boasts, and so many procrastinations, they would not fail to form a just opinion of die nature of the whole proceeding.—The other orders of the day were then disposed of, and the house adjourned, at three o'clock on Thursday morning.
HOUSE OF COMMONS.
Thursday, June 2, 1808.
[SCOTCH JUDGES ANNUITY BILL.]
The Lord Advocate moved, That the house should resolve itself into a committee on the Scotch Judges' Annuity Bill.
Mr. Bankes
expressed himself altogether averse to the principle of this bill, and was extremely surprized to perceive it was endeavoured to be hurried through the house, when it made so great a grant of public money, and was a subject on which so many various and discordant sentiments had been already delivered. It
799
The Lord Advocate
of Scotland saw no reason for the delay proposed, and was surprised to find the hon. member had any serious objection to the bill, which was only intended to set the superannuated Judges of Scotland on the same liberal footing as those of England. It was an improper mode of providing for the superannuated Judges from the revenue of the king; first, because these pensions could be withdrawn at pleasure; and secondly, because they would expire with the life of the king. He considered the delay proposed as dangerous to the Bill, and, therefore, should oppose it.
Mr. Abercromby
wished the bill should not be committed until the report of the Finance Committee should be before the house; the delay was inconsiderable, and might be attended with advantage to the country.—After a few words from Mr. Rose, the gallery was cleared for a division. On the division there appeared for going into the Committee, Ayes 63; Noes 32. Majority 31.
Mr. Horner
said, it was altogether a mistake to compare the duties of the Barons of the Exchequer in Scotland, with those that were discharged by the court of the same name in Westminster Hall. The former were merely a Board of Revenue. It had been justly said, that on an average they had not twelve causes before them in twelve months. During the term before last, he was informed there were only three causes, and during the term just finished not a single one.
800
Mr. Fuller
thought it would be better to permit the Scotch to have all possible means of remuneration for their labour in their own country. The present deficiency was, perhaps, the reason why so many young Scotchmen thronged the streets of London, hunting after promotion. If it would be the means of keeping these young adventurers at home, he should feel happy in giving the bill its greatest latitude, and should, therefore, support the original clause.
The Lord Advocate
said, the whole of the revenue questions in Scotland came before the court of exchequer. If it were once to be laid down, that persons who from age or infirmity were incapable of instructing the jury aright, be allowed to continue judges, the complaint of there being little revenue business in Scotland would soon cease to operate. It was necessary to take care that the Judges in that court, as well as in every other, were efficient.
Sir S. Romilly
was decidedly of this mind; but he presumed to think it would hardly be said, that the Barons of the Exchequer had hitherto been inefficient. Therefore, there could be the less necessity for the present bill so far as they were concerned. He was informed, that it was quite consistent with the duties of this office, that the person exercising it, should reside in a foreign country. He expected to have heard from his learned friend, some reasons for the present measure, but he was disappointed. The learned lord had said, that 22 causes had stood in the paper for trial during the last term; but every gentleman present knew, that there was nothing extraordinary in this, as not one of them might have been insisted in.
The Solicitor General
for Scotland thought it invidious to make any distinction between the Barons of Exchequer, who were Judges of one of the supreme courts, and the Judges of the other courts. The labour, unquestionably, could not be compared with that of the Judges of the court of Session; but still their duties were important. They had even to controul the grants of the minister himself.
Mr. Abercromby
said it had been admitted that the Barons of Exchequer in Scotland came in place of the old Lords of the Treasury. The duties, of course, which devolved on them, were not, and could not be judicial. The house was now called on to give pensions to the name of Barons of Exchequer, for in no other way
801
Mr. Bankes
declared, that all the explanations made by gentlemen acquainted with the duties of the Barons of Exchequer in Scotland, did not satisfy his mind that their offices were judicial. He could conceive it perfectly possible that they might go by the same name, and not have the same duties to perform with the Barons of Exchequer in Ireland. A person might once belong to a court of justice and yet his character not be judicial. As, for instance, his right hon. friend opposite was chancellor of the exchequer, and head of that court, and, on the principle now contended for, must be entitled to a salary on retiring from his office; but this, he presumed to think, would hardly be maintained.
The Chancellor of the Exchequer
said, that it was a matter of no minor consideration that, by the act, the judges held their situations 'quam diu bene se gesserint;' and that the case of the Sheriffs of Counties in Scotland, alluded to by an hon. gent, was not at all analogous, as such officers were not thereby removed from any profession in the duties of which they had been previously employed. He denied that these pensions were so much for the benefit of the individuals concerned as for the benefit of the public, by securing an adequate and uninterrupted administration of justice.
Mr. Windham
said, that the question ought to be argued upon the general principle of grants upon superannuation, and not upon the strained analogy of reducing the Scotch judges to the same standard as the judges of this country. Such an assimilation reminded him of the old fable, 'How we apples swim.' And as to the plurality of duties, the division of such labour was more like the division of business between Jack and Tom: 'What are you doing, Jack r'—' Nothing, sir.' What are you doing, Tom t'—'Helping Jack, sir.' Let gentlemen speak of it as they would, it was, after all, nothing more than spreading a small substance upon a great extent. It did appear to him to be a provision not at all called for.
Mr. R. Dundas
thought it was a sufficient answer to the objections why the Welch judges were not pensioned as well as the
802
[MILITARY COMMISSIONERS' BILL.]
The Chancellor of the Exchequer
rose to move for leave to bring in a bill to revive and continue the powers of the Commissioners of Military Inquiry. He hoped there would be no objection to pass this bill through all its stages as speedily as possible. A bill for this purpose had already passed both houses of parliament in this session, but by some accident, it had been omitted in the commission which had passed the great seal for giving the royal assent to bills agreed upon by both houses. In consequence of this omission, the powers of the commissioners had expired yesterday, and it became necessary to have this bill revived, to continue them.
The Speaker
thought it right to make some observations on this case. It was contrary to the constitution that bills agreed upon by both houses should lie in the other house without being noticed, when a commission from the great seal came down to give the royal assent to bills so agreed upon. There being no reason to suppose that the present case happened otherwise than by mere accident, the present motion might be sufficient.
803
[LONDON VACCINE INSTITUTION.]
Sir T. Turton
presented a Petition from the managers of the London Vaccine Institution, stating the effects of their care and the exertions used under their direction, in spreading Vaccine Inoculation. The petitioners prayed public aid, the institution having been hitherto supported only by voluntary contributions. Before the Petition was read,
Mr. Fuller
rose and observed with considerable warmth, that a grosser forgery had never been submitted to that house.
The Speaker
interrupted the hon. member, and reminded him that the Petition had not been yet read, and that when it was, the house would be better enabled to judge of the nature of its contents. Mr. Fuller resumed his seat amidst considerable laughter. The Petition was then read, and sir T. Turton moved, that it do lie on the table, when
Mr. Fuller
again rose and apologized for his abrupt manner of rising before. He said that this business was a gross cheat; a palpable trick to swindle the public; or, if it was not absolute swindling, it went very near the wind. When they came to solicit his subscription, he thought they were at the head of some respectable corporation, but what did they turn out to be? A parcel of Quakers or Presbyterians, or whatever they were called. They had got at first five guineas from him; but the moment he detected them, he threatened them with a Bow-street officer and a charge for swindling; and the dread of detection soon frightened them into a re-delivery of his five guineas. What a shame then was it to see their cause espoused by any man in that house. A member of parliament should be ashamed of having any thing to do with such fellows. He did not suppose that the hon. baronet shaved in their gains [a laugh.] That gentleman was welcome to laugh if he
804
Sir T. Turton
felt no resentment at the warm language of the hon. gent. He wished the hon. gent. was in as perfect good humour with himself, as he and the house were with him. The Jennerian Society was not instituted till 1803. The original Cow Pox Inoculation Society was instituted in 1799. The Institution which the petition related to, was established in 1806, he allowed principally by a set of Quakers, a sect to whose moral and virtuous principles and conduct, he was happy to bear testimony. Since that time this Institution had communicated the vaccine matter to 81,000 persons in every situation of life. The petitioners desired only to have the facts alleged in their petition inquired into; and hoped for public aid only in the event of their being found entitled to it on public grounds.—The petition was ordered to lie on the table.
[VACCINATION.]
Mr. Rose
deferred his notice of a motion on this subject until Thursday. His object was to diminish the evils which now resulted from the dissemination of spurious and improper Vaccine matter, by the establishment of some central Institution, from which the genuine virus should be distributed without expence. If the house should acquiesce in his motion, he should then propose to submit the management of the institution to a certain number of the College of Physicians. This was not a government measure, and he begged to be understood as having no particular partiality to any one of the present institutions more than another. His object was to give the best possible effect to the discovery of Dr. Jenner.
[EAST INDIA COMPANY'S AFFAIRS.]
Mr. Creevey
rose, pursuant to notice, to move for a copy of an exposition of the Affairs of the East India company, which had been laid before the committee by the directors. A Report had been already presented to the house by the East India committee, upon which a grant of money to the company was to be moved. His object was to have this paper before the house, in order that when gentlemen came to vote on the question, they might be as well informed upon the subject as the committee. The hon. member stated
805
Mr. R. Dundas
said, that the objection to the production of the paper, had been merely a question of time. The Exposition related principally to the state of the company's affairs abroad. The Report related to their affairs at home. The committee, therefore, with the exception of the hon. gent, had thought it better to delay the production of the Exposition till the second report, where those matters would be treated to which it related. He denied that any delusions had been held out, but said that the predictions of lord Melville and his noble friend near him (lord Castlereagh) were justified by the then situation of the company, and had only failed from circumstances which they could not foresee.
Lord A. Hamilton
observed, that the question was, whether any proposition for a loan to the East India company was to
806
Mr. R. Dundas
said, that he meant to move to-morrow s'ennight, in a committee of ways and means, the balance due from the public to the company.
Mr. Wilberforce
stated, that he had agreed with the majority of the committee, that it was best to defer presenting the Exposition, till they reported on the subject to which it chiefly related: erroneous speculations might be formed upon that document, both in and out of the house, if it should be laid on the table without the observations of the committee.
Mr. Windham
said, that this was a good answer as far as the committee was concerned. But the question for the house to consider was, whether they were to vote a grant of money to the Company without having an opportunity of examining this exposition of their affairs?
The Chancellor of the Exchequer
observed, that at all events the motion was premature, as the report was not printed, and the house could not know what was proposed in it. If nothing should appear in that report but that we should pay our debts, the paper would not be necessary with a view to that question. This, therefore, was not the time for the house to decide whether the committee had done wrong or not in withholding that paper for the present.
Lord Folkestone
understood, that the president of the board of controul intended to propose in the first place, no more than the payment of what were called our debts. In that case the production of the paper would not be so necessary. But yet the Report proposed, that a large sum over and above those debts should be granted to the company. At all events, it was proper, that the house should have every information on the subject as soon as possible; and as there could be no real objection to the production of this paper, he should vote for its being laid immediately on the table.
Sir J. Anstruther
said, that the house did not know whether the paper related to the report or not. If any member, after
807
Mr. Tierney
observed, that every facility had been afforded to his hon. friend to procure all the evidence with respect to the home affairs of the company; and if no more evidence was produced, it was his hon. friend's fault. It was rather unfair, therefore, to hold up the committee to the public as desirous to conceal the situation of the company. He disclaimed any such intention. The Report related to the home affairs; and if he had been in the committee at the time, he certainly would have voted with the majority for withholding that paper for the present, as having no relation to the matters contained in the report. If what had been decided by the committee as debt was alone to be proposed upon that report, there could be no use for the document; but, if any assistance was intended to be voted in the first instance, then, however hard on the company it might be, he would assent to the production of the paper. He did not wish to gloss over the affairs of the company; neither did he wish to prejudice the public against them. They were entitled to justice. They had exposed their affairs very fairly; and all the members of that committee were most anxious to find out and state the exact and fair truth on this subject.
Mr. Ponsonby
admitted, that the best way of proceeding would be, in the first instance to clear all our debts to the company if any were due, and then to examine into the general state of their affairs. If it was, therefore, to be understood that nothing further was to be proposed by the hon. president of the board of controul in the committee of ways and means, except a liquidation of the debt, he thought his hon. friend might suffer himself to be prevailed upon to withdraw his motion for the present.
Mr. Creevey
observed, that he would never retract what he might at any time have said respecting the committee, but still maintained that it was improperly constituted. He would watch over their proceedings, however, in whatever manner he thought proper. The report consisted of
808
Mr. R. Dundas
said, that he only meant in the first instance to propose a liquidation of the debt.
Mr. R. Thornton
reprobated the language held by Mr. Creevey, that the East India Company were bankrupts; and contended that while the committee was composed of men perfectly competent to examine into the state of the company's affairs, the conduct of the hon. gent. this evening, was such as to detract much from the weight of any observations which he might in future make upon the report when it was made.—The motion was accordingly withdrawn.
[BANK OF IRELAND BILL.]
The order of the day being read for the house resolving itself into a committee on the Bank of Ireland bill,
Lord H. Petty
rose to move an instruction to the committee to enable Roman-Catholics to become directors of the Bank of Ireland. In bringing this proposition forward, he felt that he should have to encounter very great difficulty, not from the complexity of the subject, but from the task of' obviating an objection, if any objection could possibly exist, against adopting a measure of conciliation to the Roman-Catholics of Ireland. The charter of the Bank of Ireland was granted in 1782, and the Roman-Catholics were then excluded from the direction, agreeably to the spirit of the penal laws. In the act of 1793, the bar to their admission was intended to be removed; but this intention was frustrated by the omission of a single word in the act. He had heard it argued, that it would be prudent to allow this obscurity to remain; but he asserted that now, when the house was legislating upon the subject, by allowing the doubt to remain which at first was merely accidental, the catholics were placed in a worse situa-
809
Mr. Foster
was as friendly to every proper measure of conciliation to the Roman-Catholics as the noble lord, but he asserted that there was no reason for introducing such a change into the constitution of the Bank of Ireland, which change never had been made in the charter of the bank of England, particularly when the present state of Ireland was considered, and when it was recollected that the change was unsolicited by the Roman-catholics themselves. [Hear, hear, from the opposition.] Gentlemen might cry 'hear' but he stated that in two meetings of the proprietary which had lately taken place, no mention whatever had been made of the subject. He should therefore oppose the resolution, as tending to introduce a needless innovation into the charter.
The Chancellor of the Exchequer
argued, that according to every fair construction of the act of 1793, there was no reason to think that that act of the Irish parliament meant to leave Roman Catholics eligible to the government and direction of the Bank of Ireland; and as to the time at which the proposition was made, viz. after having refused to accede to the prayer of their Petition, it appeared rather surprising that it should be urged, that we ought to indemnify the Roman Catholics for refusing to them what they were desirous of having, by granting that which they did not ask, and upon which they sat no value at all.
810
Mr. Grattan
said, that this was one of those things which it seemed but little to grant, but the refusal of which was felt as a severe mortification. It had been said that the Roman catholics did not desire the boon; he admitted, that they had not petitioned for this privilege specifically; but if they had not, it was because it was so small that they conceived it was impossible it could be refused. He believed that it was not the intention of the Irish parliament to exclude Catholics from the direction of the Bank; and this opinion he supported by referring to the Act of 1793.
The house then divided, and the numbers were, for the motion 83; Against it 96. Majority against the motion 13.
HOUSE OF COMMONS.
Friday, June 3, 1808.
[SMALL-POX PREVENTION BILL.]
Mr. Fuller
brought in a bill for preventing the spreading of Small-Pox infection; which was read a first and second time, committed, and ordered to be printed as amended. Lord Folkestone thought the bill ought to stand over till the next session of parliament—; to which Mr. Fuller acceded. The bill was reported and ordered to be read a third time this day three months.
[PROMISSORY NOTES BILL.]
Mr. Huskisson
having given notice of a motion for leave to bring in a bill to regulate and restrain the issue of Promissory Notes reissuable, stated, that on consideration ha was disposed to coincide generally in the representations of those who were of opinion that this credit, as well as every other, ought to be left as free as possible. But much mischief and confusion arose from, the frequent issues of very small notes to the amount of 15 or 20 shillings, the abuse of which was very general. To obviate this evil, he moved for leave to bring in a bill to prevent the issue of promissory notes under the amount of 20s.
Mr. Thompson
represented the propriety of guarding against the issue of checks by one partner of a banking house on his fellow partners for ten or fifteen shillings.
Mr. Huskisson
was aware of the variety of shapes in which the abuse existed, and: had taken proper advice previous to the framing of this bill, as to the best means of discovering every species of abuse.
Sir J. Newport
represented the variety and extent of frauds formerly practised
811
l.
Mr. Parnell
said the circulation of these small notes was owing to the deficiency of silver coin, and wished ministers to apply the only effectual remedy, which was a new silver coinage.—Leave was given to bring in the bill.
[HACKNEY COACHES BILL.]
Mr. Huskisson
[COURTS MARTIAL.]
Mr. Lyttleton,
pursuant to notice, rose to move for leave, to bring in a bill to amend the constitution of Courts Martial. He was aware of the objection against interfering with the prerogative. But the interference that he proposed would be far from infringing on the just rights of the crown. In no age had the crown the power of managing the whole administration of the army, at its unlimited discretion. The high constable and earl marshal in antient times regulated the affairs of the army under due responsibility. On the attainder of Stafford, duke of Buckingham, high constable in the reign of Henry VIII, that monarch assumed and exercised the whole powers of the superintendance and government of the army. But the arbitrary principles of that monarch, and his immediate successors, rendered these practices no precedent for the justice of modern times.
812
813
The Secretary at War
represented that the measure proposed could not possibly be entertained in the present session, as it was incompatible with several provisions in the Mutiny Act, particularly with that which bound members of Courts Martial to keep their decisions secret till they should be revised by the crown. But, in answer to the general reasoning of the hon. member, he should argue, without going back to the times before the Revolution, which afforded no precedent applicable at present, that the interference proposed would be injurious. The hon. gent, allowed that his majesty ought always to have the power of judging what officers he should employ, and what officers he should dismiss. He would ask, then, what difference the alteration proposed in the
814
Sir F. Burdett,
from the obvious fact of naval discipline being adequate to every good purpose, saw no reason why the more just and equitable constitution of naval Courts Martial should not extend to the army. He adverted to the case of col. Cochrane Johnstone, and insisted on the hardship of punishing that gentleman after he had been acquitted by the Court Martial. A similar influence might again be put into action for the injury of some deserving member of society. No other hopes of advancement should be held out, but those dependent on exclusive merit and military pre-eminence. The greatest possible injury that could be done to the character or feelings of an officer, who had been honourably acquitted, was to pass him over in the list of promotions, except that which went so far as to reverse the sentence of the court by which he was tried. Seeing, as he did, the necessity of reformation, and the wide door which had been opened to abuses, he should certainly support the motion.
Sir A. Wellesley
observed, that the measure proposed would go not only to alter the Mutiny Act, but also the Articles of War. The navy was the characteristic and constitutional force of Britain, and might therefore be governed more by the regulations of the legislature. But the
815
General Fitzpatrick
was ready to admit that Courts Martial required a reform to render the constitution of them and some of their forms of proceeding, more consistent with the general spirit of British law. But the present proposition went too far. If the power of the crown was too much relaxed, the army would become highly dangerous to the people and to the crown also. He allowed the extreme hardship of col. Cochrane Johnstone's case, and would have been happy if it had been in his power to remove the hardship that gent, had suffered. But as the power of the crown was unlimited, and very properly proposed to be left so, as to what officers it would employ, he did not see how the exercise of his majesty's discretion could be remedied by any measure proposing not to meddle with it. The commander in chief finding by the letter of the Judge Advocate, that col. Johnstone was not an officer agreeable to his majesty, abstained from recommending him in his turn for promotion. The only thing that was open to remedy on that proceeding, was to render the Judge Advocate responsible for the advice he should give to his majesty, and that had already been done by a clause in the Mutiny Act, adopted by the house on his suggestion. The system of the navy was inapplicable to the army in many cases. For instance, a captain of a man of war had the power to order a man to be flogged without a trial. The first officer in the army had no such power, and he should be sorry to think he had. He allowed it was desirable that the powers of the Judge Advocate should be defined and understood; and recommended to the hon. gent, who filled that office, to introduce himself some measure to that effect.
Mr. Lyttleton
consented to withdraw his motion, though he could not help observing, that his wish had been misinterpreted, as well as some of his words. He was not desirous to trench on the royal prerogative: his Bill would only have referred to general Courts Martial, and in this point of view he could not see what distinction could be drawn between naval and military courts. He might at some future period bring forward his motion, when he hoped to render it more palatable to the house.
816
[SUGAR-DISTILLATION.]
Lord Binning having moved the second reading of the bill to prohibit the Distillation of Spirits from Corn or Grain,
Mr. Brand
opposed it, on the principle that all political interference of the legislature with the industry and general pursuits of the country was bad. He would allow that particular circumstances might occur which would justify such interference. It might be allowed under well-founded apprehensions of scarcity, or as a measure of temporary policy. He knew, however, of no scarcity either existing or to be apprehended, which called for the present measure. Wheat, which might be considered as the principal food of man, was hardly ever known at a more steady price than it had been for several months past. In case, however, a scarcity should actually take place, he then wished that the crown should possess the power to stop the distilleries by a proclamation. Wheat had for a long time been at a low price, and a price so low as to be hardly adequate to repay the farmer. He therefore felt it his duty to resist the second reading.
Mr. Marryatt
said that as to the general principle of leaving agriculture to itself, and not interfering with it by any legislative provisions, that principle would, in justice, be as applicable to the interests of the West India planters, or to the commerce of the country, as to its agriculture. But it was known that the interests of the West India merchants had, in point of fact, been much interfered with by the legislature. Although by the contract under which our islands were cultivated, the planters were to have the monopoly of supplying the empire with sugar; yet, when we occupied St. Domingo, we received 100,000 hogsheads annually from that colony, in competition with the produce of our own colonies, and in violation of the contract made with them. Again, when it was represented that the planters held up the price of their sugar too high, parliament interfered, and let in East India sugar in competition with it. At the time that parliament resolved on this measure, he did not recollect that a single country gentleman raised his voice against the interference of the legislature with the price of the produce of the West India cultivation. If the principle was good in the one case, why was it not also good in the other? Those country gentlemen, who now laid it down so broadly in their lectures on political economy, never thought
817
818
Mr. Eden
contended that the present situation of the world, was the strongest argument against any discouragement of agriculture. It was most impolitic to narrow the market, and thereby diminish the production of grain. From the Report of the Committee itself, it appeared that it was improper to extend the measure to Ireland. The distress of the West India colonies was said to spring from the stoppage of the intercourse with the continent. Ministers affirmed that the Orders in Council would open this. These Orders had been six months in operation, and what had they done? The intercourse had only been more effectually put an end to, and the distress of the planters augmented. The best measure of relief would be to open the intercourse direct between the colonies and other nations, while the present state of things continued. He concluded, by declaring his opposition to the measure.
Mr. Bragge Bathurst
thought that the general principle which was laid down respecting the impropriety of legislative interference, must be applicable only in general cases. The same principle was equally applicable to the commerce of the country as to its agriculture; and yet, in practice, it was found absolutely necessary for the legislature often to interfere in the affairs of commerce. The evils under which we laboured at the present moment were these: we were excluded from importing, (as we had been accustomed) the surplus corn of other countries to meet a failure of the harvest, and at the same time we were pressed with a glut of West India produce. Those temporary evils could not be remedied by the appli-
819
Mr. Davies Giddy
objected to the measure, as he thought the interference of the legislature, upon any occasion, with the agriculture or commerce of the country, was highly injurious; excepting in cases of scarcity, of which at present there was not the smallest appearance.
Mr. Coke
hoped that ministers would not press a measure, when their majorities were so very small, and when the minority was so respectable. It was true, that perhaps they might derive more support from the manufacturing and commercial interests, but he hoped that consideration would not prevent them from doing justice to the landed interest. If he had ever used the term 'gambling speculations' to the cultivation of the colonies, he had certainly never meant to apply the term in an offensive sense; but he was surprised that none of the West India gentlemen ever spoke without using the word monopoly, which was a term that had not been applied to them; and yet he could not conceive how there could exist any great monopoly of corn in this country; whereas there might easily be a monopoly of sugar, as that was an article which was kept in few hands. He thought it was absolute nonsense to think of fixing a maximum in the price of corn. The bad effects of attempting a minimum in the price of labour had been already felt. As to the profits of farmers, he thought it but reasonable that if one part of their crop failed, as it notoriously did at the last harvest, they should charge something more on that part which had not failed. This was the only mode by which they could pay their rent, taxes, and other expences.
Mr. Eyre
said, that if he thought the measure before the house was at all calculated to affect the interests of agriculture, or to produce that scarcity which it was intended to prevent, he should be one of the last men in the world to vote for it. The landed interest had taken a false alarm on the subject. He highly approved of relieving the West India merchants, from which the landed interest would ultimately derive the greatest benefit.
Mr. Wilberforce
was of opinion that the interest of the planter and the interest of the farmer were not only compatible; but
820
Mr. Calvert,
adverting to the clamours about high prices, observed, that if we were to raise our own supplies, the farmer must have a price that might render it worth his while to cultivate poor as well as rich land.
Sir John Newport
deprecated the tampering with the agriculture of the country, and declared, that this measure would be of the most fatal consequence to the tillage of Ireland, which was becoming a great source of supply to Great Britain. Every thing that he had heard only confirmed his objection to the measure. To prove that there was no actual scarcity, he stated from competent authority that the price of grain was falling in those places where from the stoppage of intercourse with the neighbouring districts, it had risen to the greatest height.
Mr. Manning
spoke in favour of the bill, which was absolutely necessary to prevent the ruin of the colonies.
Mr. Loveden
spoke as follows:—Sir, after all the attention in my power to bestow on this subject, and after mature consideration of every argument that has been urged in its favour, I cannot say that it appears to me either necessary or expedient. No case whatever has been made out to justify such a dangerous interference with the agriculture of the kingdom; it has not even the ground of probability to support it, and rests its dependance solely on the apprehension that a measure of this kind may become necessary hereafter. Now, sir, if merely upon the bare possibility of a change becoming necessary in the law of the land, we are to proceed and make a most serious innovation on conjecture alone, not on any established fact, are gentlemen aware of the mischievous consequences that may and will arise from the establishment of such a fatal precedent? To sanction this bill we ought to have a strong case before us; none such appears, and I must contend
821
Lord Burghersh
stated the fact, that in Feb. 1802, the price of wheat was higher at the opening of the distilleries than now when they were to be shut; and then there could not be a prospect of an abundant harvest, which we at present had. This fact was a complete answer to all that had been said respecting a scarcity.
Sir James Hall
said, we had been told from, the throne that the eyes of Europe are
822
Mr. Western
said, that as he had expressed his sentiments pretty fully upon the subject before the house the last time it was under consideration, he should not then long intrude upon their patience, but he could not help entreating the hon. gentlemen opposite, that at least they would state some specific reasons to justify the apprehensions which had been declared of a scarcity of grain in the country. The hon. gentlemen would make no reply upon a topic which had been again urged, and had been particularly referred to, by an hon. baronet, (sir G. Warrender), namely, the market price of corn, of wheat in particular, at which it was then proposed to prohibit the grain distillery, as compared with what it was upon former occasions, when the same measure was adopted. Wheat was then at the time he was speaking only 72
s.
s.,
s.;
s.
s.
823
824
s.
Lord W. Russell
expressed his surprise at the silence of ministers on a question of this importance. He wished to know, whether they considered themselves as responsible for this measure, which was brought forward under such suspicious circumstances. He asked, whether it was wise or politic to restrict agriculture in the present circumstances of the country? The proposition appeared to him inconsistent with common sense.
The house then divided; for the second reading 90, against it 3d. Majority 51.
[LOCAL MILITIA BILL.]
Lord Castlereagh
825
Mr. Bankes
objected to it, on the ground that it would make the measure bear heavily upon the lower classes, whilst it would operate lightly on the higher classes. If personal service was enforced in every instance, the measure would not operate so unequally. But as substitution was not allowed, he thought that the lower classes should be permitted to relieve themselves from the pressure of the fine by insurance, as otherwise the measure would be odious in the country.
The Secretary at War
was surprised at the opposition made to this clause, because it would go to the whole of the bill. This clause was absolutely necessary to render the bill operative, as, if insurance was allowed, the bill could never take effect. The burthen of the service could not be heavy, or the number of volunteers who offered themselves to serve as local militia, would not be so great as the fact proved it to be.
Mr. Windham
thought this clause most highly objectionable, because it imposed a heavy partial burthen upon individuals of the lower class, without allowing them to secure themselves against it by insurance. The measure ought either to enforce in every instance personal service, or insurance should be allowed, because in every case the lesser evil would be preferred. In the lower classes the fine would be a greater evil than personal service, and they of course must serve, whilst with the higher classes the fine would be the lesser evil, and they of course would pay it, and not submit to their personal service. The service would be ruin to many persons in business, who must serve, and if the service would be ruin, the fine which went to compel it must be equally ruinous. No option therefore was given, as was stated by the noble lord, because either alternative must be ruin to the industrious classes, whom it would be most desirable to protect.
Lord Castlereagh
stated that there were only two ways of mitigating the severity of conscription by ballot; mitigation by fine, or mitigation by substitution. He preferred the mitigation by fine, and was
826
Mr. Davies Giddy
thought that the clause, as worded, appeared to be too severe; because it would seem that in every instance the fine was to be the property of the person paying it, whereas he was of opinion that parents should be allowed to pay for their sons, and masters for their apprentices or servants.
Mr. Babington
did not approve of permitting persons to insure, and thought 10
l.
Lord H. Petty
contended, that by insurance they who insured would not do it to: withdraw themselves from the service of the country, but to enable them to meet an option held out to them by the legislature. He insisted also that it was the middle class of industrious persons that
827
Lord Castlereagh
acceded to the principle suggested by Mr. D. Giddy, and had no doubt that a proviso might be prepared to allow fathers to pay the fine for their sons, and masters for their apprentices or servants, without interfering with the general operation of the bill.—A division then took place, when the numbers were, For the Clause, 106; Against it, 16.—Majority, 90.
Mr. Windham
expressed his surprise that the noble lord should be so anxious to precipitate the last stage of the bill, the more so, as it had this night been allowed to proceed two stages.
Lord Castlereagh
felt no less surprised at the surprise of the right hon. gent., for surely no hurry had taken place in the progress of the bill; on Wednesday last the bill was in a committee, and then the only clauses to which the right hon. gent. had objected, were again under consideration. There was now to occur an interruption of business for three or four days, and during that period, the right hon. gent, would surely be able to make up his mind with respect to any further objections which it might be his intention to offer against the principle or the provisions of the bill.
828
HOUSE OF COMMONS.
Wednesday, June 8, 1808.
[LOCAL MILITIA BILL.]
Mr. Brand
presented a Petition from John Cartwright of Enfield, in the county of Middlesex, taking notice of the Bill for enabling his majesty to establish a permanent local Militia force in England, under certain restrictions, for the defence of the realm; and setting forth, that the petitioner conceives the said Bill is essentially at variance with the English constitution, and, if it should pass into a law, and make part of the present general system of defence for Great Britain, which general system the petitioner conceives to be fundamentally unconstitutional and defective, that system would thereby be farther countenanced, confirmed, and fortified, whence greater danger to the state, and to the laws and liberties of the people, would arise, than that to which they are already exposed; and therefore praying, that the said bill may not pass into a law.—The Petition was read, and ordered to lie on the table.
[PLYMOUTH DOCK POLICE BILL.]
Mr. TyrrWhit
adverted to the great depredations committed in Plymouth dock-yard, and moved for leave to bring in a bill to establish a Police for that yard.
Sir W. Elford
admitted the fact of the depredations, and only doubted whether this would be the best mode of remedying the evil. He would not, however, object to the bringing in of the bill.
Mr. Tyrrwhit
mentioned, that he merely meant to bring it in, and have it printed, with a view to circulate it, and allow it to lie over till next session.
Sir C. Pole
thought that some measure of this sort would be very useful, if it was not absolutely necessary.
Mr. Bastard
gave full credit to the motives of his hon. friend, but he hoped that
829
Admiral Harvey
observed that some local jurisdiction was necessary at Plymouth dock.
The Chancellor of the Exchequer
would not object to the bringing in of the bill, but hoped that neither he nor any in the house, would be understood as pledged to an approbation of it.—Leave given.
[IRISH BUDGET.]
The house having resolved itself into a committee of Ways and Means,
Mr. Foster,
after observing that he would detain the house but a very short time, briefly stated, under the various heads, the sums required in Ireland for the service of the year 1808, amounting in all to 9,767,550
l.
l.
l.
l.
l.
l.
l.
s.
d.
The Loan raised in Ireland
£45,562
The Bank, of Ireland Loan
75,000
The Loan raised in England
159,000
Total
280,462
830
Extension of the Malt Duties to raw Corn, &c
£333,000
Duty on Foreign Spirits
22,500
Savings in the Management of the Public Debt
7,500
Total
363,000
GENERAL RECAPITULATION.
LOAN FOR IRELAND.
Irish Money.
Interest and Sinking Fund.
2,703,332 borrowed in England
£.159,904
2,000,000 borrowed in Ireland
120,562
4,708,332
Annual Charge
£.280,466
Ways and Means for raising the said Charge.
1
s.
d.
£.500,000
Deduct one third for Malt
166,666
333,334
Duties on Imported Spirits 400,000 gallons, at 13
d.
22,500
Saving on Bank Management
7,500
£.363,334
Deduct charge as above
280,466
Surplus
82,868
Charge on 5th Jan. 1808.
Unfunded Dept
29,557
Treasury Bills
400,000
Remains due to Inland Canals
215,484
Howth Harbour
6,000
First Fruits
50,000
Other Articles
200,000
£.901,041
Discharge.
Loan unapplied
871,999
Balance in Exchequer, Jan. 5, 1808
298,115
1,170,134
Deduct Charge, as above
901,041
Surplus to be carried to Ways and Means for 1808
£.259,093
Interest and Sinking Fund of Dept
3,409,992
Quota of Expence for the Year (5,868,515 Brit.).
6,337,558
9,767,550
Annual Means for 1808.
Revenues and Extraordinary Resource
4,800,000
Loan raised in Ireland
2,000,000
Great Britain
2,708,332
Supplies as above
259,093
£.9,767,425
831
Mr. Parnell
observed, that he could not agree in opinion with the right hon. gent. (Mr. Foster), that the Loan for 1,250,000
l.
l.
l.
l.
d.
l.
l.
l.
l.
l.
l.
832
l.
l.
l.
l.
l.
l.
l.
l.
833
Sir J. Newport
inquired into the state of the Collectors Balances. Last year they had increased 60,0001. He did not attach blame to this circumstance, but he wished to know what prospect there was of their being reduced.
Mr. Foster
replied, that every regulation on that subject had been hitherto enforced without effect. All possible steps were now taking to reduce the balances, and he had great hopes that before the next meeting of parliament that object would be in a great measure accomplished.—The house having resumed, the report was ordered to be received to-morrow.
[CURATES RESIDENCE BILL.]
The Chancellor of the Exchequer moved the order of the day for a committee on this bill. On the question for leaving the chair,
Mr. Western
objected to the measure, as calculated to interfere without any cause, with the property of the Church, which was as well entitled to the protection of the law as any other, and likely to affect the independence of the Church, as well as to countenance unfounded clamours against beneficed clergymen.
Mr. C. Wynne
supported the general principle of the bill, inasmuch as it went to provide an adequate income for the resident officiating clergyman. Residence was the duty of the Rector, and it was due to the parish, that the officiating clergyman should have a sufficient provision to enable him to live as; a gentleman. If the rector accepted a second benefice, it could not be a hardship upon him to make a proper allowance to the curate, who discharged the duty in the parish in which be did not reside.
834
Mr. Creevey
considered the bill a direct violation of property, which had ever been respected. The stipend of a curate had, about twelve years since, been fixed at 75
l.
l.
835
Mr. Burton
contended that the present bill was no invasion of church property, and quoted several instances from our history, to shew that such changes often took place, from the time of Richard the 2d. The property of the church was, in fact, that of the people, and certain relative duties were expected to be by them performed to qualify them for their possession. In the eye of the law there was another party with respect to church properly, beside the impropriator and the curates; this was the people of the parish, who had an indisputable right to their services; and the present bill only made such a provision for the clergy as would enable them to perform with credit to the church those duties of benevolence and hospitality prescribed by a religion they professed.
Mr. Lushington
supported the bill. It was not enacted for the advantage of dissenters, and was framed to go as far as any legislative act could go at present for the advancement of the interests of the church. The proportion of salary to the curate was only increased in proportion to the value of the rector's income. This was a just principle. At Oxford he knew of no opposition to it, though he was there so late as last week. The great source of opposition to the bill had been the increase of influence to the bishops. This he always wished to counteract: but, in the present instance he saw no cause of alarm, nor were they parties to any alteration by the present bill. From a conviction that the present bill would be of great public advantage, he felt inclined to give it his whole support.
Mr. W. Smith,
not being a member of the established church, was afraid almost to say any thing on the subject, as it seemed to be connected with party and religious considerations, some of which might be conceived to involve himself; but, nevertheless, he felt himself called on to support the principle set forth by his hon. friend (Mr. Creevey), that there should be no remuneration without reference to labour. He objected strongly to the increase of the influence of the bishops, and wished that livings, both in the hands of lay impropriators as well as others, should be placed on a better foundation. He perfectly absolved the mis-
836
Lord Milton
opposed the passing of this bill into a law. The grand objection he had to it was, that it gave the most improper influence to the bishops, who were altogether dependent on the crown, and who would not fail to extend the interests of the crown, through the medium of the regular clergy, among the population of the island. This was an evil of the greatest magnitude. The objection made by his hon. friend, he thought related not to dissenters in name, but applied to such as outwardly professed the established church, but dissented from the true spirit of the 39 Articles, and were enemies in principle to the established church. The more residents, he believed, the less would be the number of sectaries; but from the peculiar frame of this bill, he should propose that the house should go into a committee on it, though he should vote against its passing into a law.
Sir Francis Burdett
thought the present an instance of legislative interference uncalled for. It suggested no remedy for the evil it pointed out. No one parish had preferred a complaint. It had been urged, that it was necessary to increase the salaries of residents, yet no proof had been exhibited of this necessity. The ground on which the bill stood was absolutely fanciful and whimsical; it went on a supposition of a necessity which, it appeared, did not exist. It seemed the right hon. mover had affixed the idea of respectability among the clergy to the sort of clothes they should wear, or the hospitality of their household. Poverty had hitherto been the badge and honour of our religion; but opinions had changed, and it was not now necessary alone that the clergy should be respectable, but they must also be rich. The catholic religion had one established principle in it, which had done much for its security and protection from encroachment. Though the higher orders of their clergy might be possessed of wealth, the regular and officiating clergy had all the influence over the lower order of the community, which a similarity of life and equality of income must ever give them under any system of religious government. It was not the wealthy compeer of the squire who would be found to possess the most influence. Increase of salary would fail to make them
837
Mr. Manners Sutton
expressed his surprise at the statement of the hon. baronet respecting the neglect of bishops in admitting improper persons into the church. There was no point in which so much improvement had taken place respecting the church, even within the last 20 years, as in the arrangements made for the examination of persons, candidates for holy orders, in order to secure the admission of none but proper persons.
Mr. Wilberforce
said, that it was admitted that the object of the bill was to provide for the poorest order of the clergy. This he thought a great object, and it was adequate for this object. In the great contest in which the noble lord opposite (lord Milton) and he were lately engaged, he
838
Mr. Windham
regarded the bill now under consideration in a very different light from the hon. gent. who spoke last. He conceived it to be a measure calculated to undermine and weaken, rather than to strengthen that church which the hon. gent. professed so much to admire. It seemed to him to be a bill calculated to sow dissention and discontent, rather than seed likely to produce good fruit. It appeared calculated to set the curate against the rector, and the rector against the curate. It was a bill to endanger, not to benefit the church of England. He was far from denying that the legislature might not interfere to regulate church property as well as any other. Nobody could deny that proposition; but still it remained a question, was such interference necessary? Nobody could deny that the king held the reins of government for the benefit of his subjects. But still the talking of cashiering kings was a doctrine not to be lightly introduced, or to be acted on but in cases of the most crying necessity. In the same manner, though the legislature might have a controul over the property of the church, it was a controul to be seldom exercised, nor even to be often talked of; it being a fact that the solidity of the tenure, by which the property was held, was diminished even by the frequency of the dis-
839
Mr. M. A. Taylor
contended that evil existed, and that remedy was called for. There was not a sufficiency of resident clergy to do the duties of the church. The income of the curates did not keep pace with those of the rector, nor with the circumstances of the times. Hence, one curate was often obliged to serve two or three parishes; and thus baptisms and
840
The Chancellor of the Exchequer
could not see that the present bill ought to be objected to because it did not go entirely to remedy the evils under which the poorer clergy laboured. It was no reason that the house should refuse to do that quantum of good which was in its power, because a still further degree remained, which it could not reach. Instead of endangering, he conceived that by the present measure he was strengthening and securing the foundations on which the church of England rested. The right hon. gent. alluded to a charge made against a right reverend prelate, as it he had improperly presented a foreigner to a vacancy in his gift. He vindicated in strong terms the conduct of that right rev. prelate. He did not pretend to know to what case the allusion had reference, but if it applied to the appointment of a learned person who had been; professor at Smyrna, he could say that it was an appointment highly meritorious; being to a gentleman of whom, except from his character for eastern learning, the right rev. prelate had no knowledge; and was to be considered as a retaining fee to enable the person in question to prosecute the enquiries into the Scriptures, which he had commenced. The right hon. member concluded by moving for leave to withdraw his first motion, that he might move that it be an instruction to the committee to make provision for extending the bill to Ireland.
Sir J. Newport
declared himself the last man in the house' to oppose a well-regulated reform with respect to the establishment of curates. As far as the bill went to propose a remedy for that great grievance, he gave it his support. He must, however, say, that it did not meet the existing evil in Ireland, nor was it calculated generally to answer the ends for which it was intended.—The question being again put, that the Speaker do leave the chair,
Lord Porchester
conceived that there was no call for the bill. This was a case of reform; and he asked if there ever was a question of reform agreed to, without a case being made out? Whenever the worthy baronet near him (sir F. Burdett),called on the house to reform abuses of which he complained, what was the language of the very
841
Mr. Tyrrwhit Jones
strongly supported the measure, and expressed a hope that the noble lord would not continue to refuse his assent to the proposition that the bill should then go into a committee.
Sir C. Price
expressed sonic doubt that the bill, as it then stood, would have a tendency to sow schism between the curates and the incumbents; but at the same time declared, that he hoped that by its being passed through a committee, it would receive such modification as would be the means of attaining the general object; namely, that of bettering the condition of the inferior clergy throughout the empire.
A division then took place. The numbers were, for going into a committee 131; against it 17. Majority 114. The house then went into a committee, in which lord Milton objected to the proposition of the Chancellor of the Exchequer, for extending the operation of the bill to Ireland. Lord H. Petty, Mr. Windham, and sir J. Newport, followed on the same side. The Chancellor of the Exchequer defended his proposition, and was supported by sir A. Wellesley, lord Castlereagh, Mr.Huskisson, &c. Upon the division the numbers were, Ayes 55; Noes 18. Majority 37.—The committee then went through several clauses, the house resumed, the chairman reported progress, and asked leave to sit again, which was agreed to.
HOUSE OF COMMONS.
Thursday, June 9, 1808.
[VACCINE INOCULATION.]
Mr. Rose,
pursuant to notice, rose to call the attention of the house to this important subject. The object he had in view was, as the established Institution might not prove adequate to its purpose, in consequence of the falling off of private subscriptions, to establish a public and Central Institution in London, whence the real vaccine matter would be distributed to all parts of the empire. He proposed that the president and four censors of the College of Physicians, and a certain number of the College of Surgeons, should be placed at the head of this Institution, to whom all doubtful cases should be referred. The right hon. gent, after
842
l.
l.
Mr. Duvies Giddy
did not mean to oppose the Resolution, though he thought it would have been much more desirable to have left this matter to take its own course. It was a wild and extravagant idea to suppose that the small pox could be exterminated by compulsion, and one that ought not to be entertained by parliament for a moment. The people would, in the course of a few years, under such an impression, neglect the precaution of inoculation for the small pox or vaccination, and then the disease would break out with tenfold severity.
Mr. Fuller
said, that at Calcutta the small pox was entirely annihilated by the introduction of vaccination and a proper system of regulation; and was of opinion, that by proper super intendance the same result might be attained in this country. He thought also that without having recourse to compulsion, the chil-
843
Sir T. Turton
thought it would have been a preferable mode of proceeding to move for a committee to investigate the subject. There were already three Institutions in London for the express purpose of propagating the Cow pox, and in his opinion, the object which the right hon. gent, had in view, was more likely to be obtained by private subscriptions, and by any assistance which government might think proper to grant in aid of such subscription, than by an Institution formed expressly under the auspices of the legislature.
Lord H. Petty
contended, that as the evidence was still in some degree incomplete respecting the efficacy of Vaccination as an infallible preventive of the small pox, it was highly proper that the investigation should be persevered in under the eye of the public; and as this was one object that he conceived the right hon. gent, to have in view in his Institution, he thought this object more likely to be attained by one general institution, than by a number of small institutions, some of which were not perhaps altogether exempt from the imputation of being guided by mercenary motives.
Sir F. Burdett
reminded the house of the different complexion which the discovery had now assumed from that under which it was first introduced to the public. It was at first said to be a thing so simple in itself, that any old woman might perform the operation, whereas it was now described as one so extremely difficult, that it ought only to be entrusted to men of great professional skill and experience. There was some danger, therefore, that we might be fostering a very fatal mistake. With this impression, he confessed, that in the present circumstances, he felt considerable difficulty in voting for any measure, the object of which was to disseminate it. He thought, at all events, that before tying the house down by a Resolution, it would be better to appoint a Committee, further to inquire into the efficacy of the discovery.
Mr. Wilberforce
said that in foreign countries there was a firm and decided opinion of the efficacy of Vaccination as a preventive of the small-pox; and he did not think that the instances of alleged failure in this country were sufficient to shake our confidence in it. But if any
844
Mr. Rose
explained. His object was merely to bring the house to a Resolution such as he had proposed, and to communicate that Resolution to his majesty by address, in order to his giving such directions as would be suitable to the case.
Mr. Secretary Canning
declared, that though he considered the discovery to be of the very greatest importance, he could not figure any circumstances whatever that could induce him to follow up the most favourable report of its infallibility which might be brought forward, with any measure of a compulsory nature.
The house then divided: For the motion 60; Against it 5. Majority 55.
[IRISH TYTHES.]
Mr. Parnell
said, that since he gave notice of his intention of submitting to the house a motion respecting the collection of Tythes in Ireland, he had had an opportunity of learning, from the right hon. the chancellor of the exchequer, that this subject had been for some time under the consideration of his majesty's ministers, and that it still was so, with a view of bringing forward some measure for remedying the evils complained of, if it should appear to them that any measure could be devised for this purpose. Under these circumstances, he conceived he should best consult the interests of those who desired an alteration in the present system of tythes, if he postponed his motion for the present. He would, therefore, do so; wishing it, however, to be distinctly understood, that if his majesty's ministers did not bring forward some measure early in the next session he would then submit to the house the same motion which he had proposed to submit to it on Monday next.
Mr. M. Fitzgerald
disapproved of the hon. gent.'s withdrawing his motion; and gave notice, that, on Thursday, he should move for the appointment of a Committee to inquire into the state of the Tythes in the county of Kerry.
HOUSE OF COMMONS.
Friday, June 10, 1808.
[KING'S MESSAGE RESPECTING SICILY.]
Mr. Secretary Canning presented the following Message from his majesty:
845
"G.
R.
Mr. Secretary Canning
then moved, that his majesty's most gracious Message be referred to the Committee of Supply. He took this opportunity of stating, that though this Treaty was now for the first time brought forward, it was no new transaction, but one which the present ministry had found to have been in the contemplation of their predecessors, and that in the year 1805 it had been intended to conclude a treaty with the king of Sicily, by which a subsidy of 300,000
l.
[TREATY WITH SICILY.]
Mr. Secretary Canning then presented to the house a copy of the said Treaty, as follows:
"TREATY OF ALLIANCE AND SUBSIDY, between his majesty the king of the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Ireland, and his majesty the king of the Two Sicilies—signed at Palermo on the 30th of March, 1808.
"His majesty the king of the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Ireland, and his majesty the king of the Two Sicilies, being equally animated by a sincere desire of strengthening more and more the ties of friendship and good understanding which so happily subsist between them, have judged that nothing could contribute more efficaciously to that salutary end, than the conclusion of a Treaty of Alliance and Subsidy. For this purpose their said majesties have named their respective plenipotentiaries, viz. his Britannic ma-
846
847
l.
l.
848
(L. S.) W. DRUMMOND.
(L. S.) THOMAS DE SOMMA."
[SPAIN.]
Mr. Sheridan
gave notice, that he would on Monday next put certain questions to his majesty's ministers relative to the nature of the advices lately received from Spain, tending to ascertain the state of that country, the conduct that this country ought to pursue with respect to it, and the conduct his majesty's government meant to pursue. He did not mean to press for any improper disclosure, either with regard to Spain, or the measures to be adopted here, but merely to come to an, understanding upon general facts and principles.
[PUBLICANS LICENSES.]
Mr. Sheridan
rose to move for leave to bring in a bill to amend the act for licensing alehouse-keepers, inn-keepers, &c. Alluding to the meetings held for some time past, at the St. Alban's tavern, for the purpose of preventing any rise in the rate of Posting, he took occasion to express his reprobation of all such combinations among lords and commoners, as, if attempted among the poor and labouring classes of the community, would be deemed illegal, and punished as such. Seeing an hon. member and magistrate for the county of Sussex, however, in the house, he could riot refrain from candidly stating to him a circumstance relating to that hon. member which had reached him, and by the hon. member's explanation of that circumstance he should be enabled to judge, whether he must not extend his bill further than he originally intended. The circumstance to which he alluded was this; that at one of these meetings at the St. Alban's Tavern, it having been doubted, whether it would be better for them to apply for the interference of parliament, or to proceed in their own parliament, that hon. gent. had said, that they were both idle measures, and that the one he recommended to the magistrates of Sussex was
849
Mr. Fuller
said, that instead of being either lord or commoner, as the hon. gent, would have it be supposed all the associators at the St. Alban's tavern were, his informant must have been a post-master. He never did say what the hon. gent, had stated. He had said, that the best mode of effecting their purpose was by encouraging a competition: and where there was only a single house, to encourage a rival. He had said, that the power of checking the evil in this respect, where charges were enormous, was in the breast of the magistrates themselves; and that they were too frequently enormous, he instanced the charge of 150
l.
The Chancellor of the Exchequer
objected to a measure of this kind, which had been formerly withdrawn, on account of the late period of the session, being again brought forward, without any ground assigned, and also at an advanced period of the session. He should therefore negative the motion.
Mr. H. Browne, Mr. Giddy, Mr. M. A. Taylor, and Mr. Rose, all spoke against the measure, which was negatived without a division.
[LOCAL MILITIA BILL.]
This bill was read a third time. After which,
Lord Castlereagh
introduced a number of new clauses by way of riders. Four of these, supplying omissions of the bill, were read and agreed to. On the fifth being brought up, which went to confer on magistrates the power of allotting at their discretion, to persons giving information of offences against the said act, a part not exceeding one third of the penalty, on conviction,
Mr. Barham
objected to this mode of introducing new provisions into a bill, without affording any opportunity of duly considering them.
Mr. Windham
concurred in the opinion of the hon. gent, declaring that he thought five riders upon one horse were too many, however long his back might be.
Lord Castlereagh
stated, that all the
850
Sir J. Newport
thought this clause of much importance, and that it was of still greater importance, not to allow this new practice of adding so much additional matter, without a possibility of ascertaining its precise tendency.
The house then divided. For the clause, 61; Against it, 15.—Majority, 46.
Lord Castlereagh
then proposed a clause, enabling the magistrates to call out the Local Militia in cases of riot; and providing that whatever number of days they should be out in this manner, should be deducted from the subsequent number of days of drill.
Sir F. Burden
opposed it as shifting the power lodged by the constitution in the sheriff to the magistrates.
Mr. Windham
thought the clause would be vesting enormous powers in the magistrates; and that it would be useless in its operations, as it would be easier to call in the regular troops, than to assemble this force when dispersed.
The Chancellor of the Exchequer
defended the clause. If any disturbance existed in the country, to whom could the house intrust the power given by this clause, more safely than to the magistrates.
Mr. Whitbread
characterised the clause as a great innovation on the constitution.
Mr. D. Giddy
denied that it was any innovation on the constitution.
Sir S. Romilly
contended, that as it was a perfect novelty, and involved in it most important principles, it ought not to be introduced by way of rider to a bill, but ought to be brought forward in a separate form, and deliberately discussed.
A division ensued; for the clause 97; against it 30; Majority, 67.
Mr. Whitbread
was desirous of proposing a modification by which this obnoxious clause might be amended, if this were the proper time to do so.
The Speaker
informed the hon. gent. that this was not the proper time.
Mr. Sheridan
could not conceive that any amendment could render this clause tolerable. It was one of the most direct infringements on the constitution that he had ever known. Its dangerous tendency could be equalled only by its absurdity. If it were thought advisable to give to the magistracy this power over the Local Militia, why not give
851
Lord Castlereagh
stated, that this clause was literally copied from the Volunteer acts, and as a considerable number of the volunteer corps were likely to become a Local Militia, it was desirable to have the same provision applicable to them in case of their being called out on this service.
Mr. Windham
argued against the clause, because the regular troops, in case of being called out to suppress a riot, acted with a degree of caution which would not be exercised by an undisciplined force.—
On the question that the clause be read a third time,
Mr. Whitbread
proposed as an amendment, 'that the magistrates, or deputy lieutenants, calling out the Local Militia incases of riot, should not be officers of such Militia;' which was negatived.
Mr. Sheridan
proposed that some personal notice should be served upon the members in the Local Militia when called out on such occasions, before any penalty could attach; but that suggestion was over-ruled; after which the clause was added to the bill by way of rider.
Mr. C. Wynne
objected to that provision, as likely to produce an injurious and unequal effect, and moved an amendment to leave out the words, "that a separate account be kept of fines and penalties." Some short conversation took place upon this amendment, but it was negatived without a division.—On the motion that the bill do pass,
Mr. Windham
congratulated the house upon the lessons which it had received in the course of the evening, in the science of legislation, by the different processes of
852
853
Sir F. Burdett
expressed his disapprobation of the measure, both as oppressive and unconstitutional. The bill united in itself all opposite defects. It was at once oppressive and ineffectual; harrassing to the subject, and at the same time completely impotent as a measure of national defence. It ought rather to be called a
854
The Secretary at War
defended the system pursued in the British army, against the insinuations of the hon. baronet; and asked how an army could be kept together or be harmless without enforcing discipline? Was not the necessity of discipline manifested by the experience of all nations and of all times?
The Hon. F. Robinson
contended, that the discipline in the British army was milder than in the army of any other country. The discipline in Russia and
855
Mr. C. W. Wynne
supported the measure, as believing that it must be productive of a much better system than the present volunteer establishment.
Mr. W. Smith
denied, from the best authority, that the stick was made use of in the French army, as a mode of punishment. At the same time, though he knew it was by no means general, he could maintain that such a mode of enforcing discipline, was practised here [a cry of No!] Gentlemen might cry No, but he had been an eye-witness of the tact. He mentioned it with a hope that its being publicly noticed might lead to the correction of so gross an error, such a breach of the military constitution.
General M. Mathew
said that he would bring the officer to a court martial who would presume to use any man under his command in the manner that had been alluded to.
Mr. M. A. Taylor
was of opinion, that it: would be improper to have the Local Militia on a different footing in point of discipline from the regular militia.
Admiral Harvey
observed, that both soldiers and sailors in the French service were flogged with a cat-of-nine-tails.
Sir Jas. Hall
in rising to support the bill, begged to have it understood that he was not inclined to do so from any love which he bore to the measure itself, nor from any expectation that the great inconveniences to which it would expose the country, would be compensated by any adequate addition to our internal strength; but as leading to the measure proposed by his noble relation the earl of Selkirk, to which it bore a considerable resemblance in point of form, though very different in spirit and tendency. The difference between the two systems depended principally upon one practical circumstance, by the alteration of which one of these systems might be converted into the other; namely, the circumstance of raising the men required by a ballot upon all persons from 18 to 35, as proposed by the noble lord; or, on the other hand, by calling out all the young men who in each successive year attained the age of 18, as proposed by his noble friend. He had concurred with some of
856
857
General Stewart
supported the measure, and maintained that any private soldier could obtain redress by an application to his royal highness the commander in, chief.
Mr. W. Smith
did not mean to impute any thins; in the least improper to his royal highness, neither did he mean to say that the practice was general.
The house then divided. For the bill, 104; Against it, 26. Majority, 78. The bill was then passed, and ordered to the lords.
HOUSE OF LORDS.
Monday, June 13, 1808.
[MR. PALMER'S CLAIM.]
Lord Hawkesbury
observed, that seeing by the votes of the house of commons, that a measure was in progress there, relative to the Claims of Mr. Palmer, he thought it right to propose to institute an inquiry in their lordships' house in the mean time respecting those Claims. He therefore moved to appoint a committee to inquire into the nature of the Agreement entered into by government with Mr. Palmer respecting the improvement of the Post-Office, and the causes of the suspension of Mr. Palmer from the comptrollership of the Post-Office.—A committee was appointed accordingly.
[TREATY WITH THE KING OF SICILY.]
Lord Hawkesbury
858
l.
Lord Holland
did not mean to find fault with the Treaty, although probably its policy or impolicy might at the present moment, in a great measure, depend upon circumstances, of which that house could not be informed, and which, indeed, it would not be proper to communicate. He readily admitted that some such treaty was called for by the claims which his Sicilian majesty had upon the generosity and honour of this country. At the same time, however, there were circumstances connected with the state of Sicily which afforded ground for much anxiety, and he was glad to find that precautionary provisions were inserted in the treaty; but he regretted that in addition to the two fortresses which our troops were to occupy, that of Malazzo was not also directed to be garrisoned by our troops, the latter fortress being of great strength and importance, and kept up at a trifling expence.—The motion for the Address was then put and agreed to.
HOUSE OF COMMONS.
Monday, June 13, 1808.
[KING'S MESSAGE RESPECTING A VOTE OF CREDIT.]
The Chancellor of the Exchequer presented the following Message from his majesty:
"G. R. His majesty, relying on the uniform zeal manifested by his faithful commons to provide for whatever exigencies the situation of affairs may require,
859
[AFFAIRS OF THE EAST INDIA COMPANY.]
Mr. R. Dundas moved, that the house do go into a Committee of Supply, to whom should be referred the Petition of the East India Company, and the Report of the Committee appointed to enquire into the affairs of the said Company. Upon the motion being put from the chair,
Lord Folkestone
rose, and objected to the Speaker leaving the chair, as he thought the report alluded to was perfectly unsatisfactory, and contained so little information, that it would be quite improper for the house to go into its consideration. On a former occasion an objection had been stated as to the manner in which that committee had been formed, and he still looked upon that objection as being justified by the report now upon the table. There were, in his opinion, various facts, of which the house ought to be in possession, before they proceeded to vote any great sum of money to the East India Company.
Mr. R. Dundas
observed that the objections of the noble lord would be better reserved for the committee.
Mr. Creevey
was of the same opinion as the noble lord; but would not object to the house going into the committee.—The house having gone into a Committee of Supply,
Mr. R. Dundas
then stated, that it would be unnecessary for him to say much, as the Report contained most of the facts that were necessary to be detailed. Some misunderstanding had arisen between the Accountants of the Company and the public, which were referred to the committee appointed upon East India affairs, who had thought it necessary to adhere to the principles laid down by the former committee. The first article charged by the Company was the expence of prisoners of war conveyed by his majesty's ships to India, immediately upon capture, which necessarily became chargeable upon the public; and the next was the expence of remitting to India such sums of money as had been paid by the Company to the public in liquidation of the balance owing to them. A question had been stated, as
860
l.
Lord Folkestone
repeated the objections he had urged before the house had gone into a committee, and then moved as an amendment, That instead of 1,500,000
l.
Mr. Creevey
said, that he was rather disposed to agree to the Resolution, with the exception of one item, amounting to 100,000
l.
Mr. Tierney
supported the Resolution. Although the committee were not vested with the authority of arbitrators, yet they had been appointed to ascertain the amount of the debt due upon either side. The result of their inquiry was, that 2,300,000
l.
861
Lord Folkestone
stated, that the principle upon which he had proposed a grant of five pounds, was merely for form sake, as he objected to the voting of any sum whatever upon the Report in its present imperfect state. He did not object to the paying of Indian interest so much as he did to the expence which was charged for carrying out bullion to India.
Sir John Anstruther
said, he most heartily concurred in the Resolution, as it appeared to him it was fair and reasonable the Company should receive payment of the money in the same place, and in the same manner, in which it had been borrowed. The public must be paying interest for that money, until such time as it was sent out to India, and therefore he thought there could be no question as to who should bear the loss.
[SICILIAN SUBSIDY.]
The Chancellor of the Exchequer then moved a Resolution, That 300,000
l.
Mr. Whitbread
desired some explanation as to the lateness of the time at which this treaty was laid before the house; and how this sum came to be paid so long by government without any former communication to parliament. Policy required, that when we gave away such large sums we should know wherefore. He also observed, that returns ought to have been laid before the house, of the proper application of this money. He observed in the treaty that a particular number of men was mentioned, as that which it would be necessary to provide for its defence. He did not approve of this. It was certainly enough for us to say that we would defend it, leaving the number to our discretion.
Mr. Secretary Cunning
entered into a detail of the circumstances by which Naples had been drawn into the war with France, and stated that it had been done by a Russian commander who had landed troops there. But the king of Naples being drawn into the war, G. Britain was bound by every consideration to assist him in his defence. The engagement to pay 25,000
l.
l.
862
Lord H. Petty
thought the answers satisfactory. He was of opinion, however, that the specific provisions for the defence of the island, ought to have appeared on the face of the treaty, in a manner more full than they actually did.
Mr. Whitbread
admitted that the answer to the first question was satisfactory, and was glad that a Russian and not a British commander had been guilty of that most impolitic, absurd, and pernicious act, the forcing of Naples into the war at the time she had concluded a treaty of neutrality with France. He, however, saw no reason why we were to have the controul of two forts in the island and not of the third and most important. He thought we should have had an option of putting our garrisons in which ever of them we pleased, or in all.
Mr. Secretary Cunning
stated that we had, and should have, the controul over the third; but that the provision respecting the two was adopted with a view to the number of troops we could furnish. He also observed, that the duties paid by our soldiers on certain articles of provision in Sicily were to be drawn back in the payments to be made under the treaty.
863
Mr. Windham
had heard a great deal more importance attached to the third tortress than to those of Messina and Augusta, as being more directly in the line of the place, where an enemy from the opposite coast could soonest reach. He certainly thought, therefore, that the stipulation ought to have been express for our occupying this fortress.
Mr. Wilberforce
said there was a provision in the treaty that appeared to bind us to restore Naples to the king of Sicily at a peace. He was sorry for this: because, as we wished always to perform our engagements, we ought rather to promise less than more than we could do. This was not, perhaps, the meaning intended; but it might bear that construction.
Mr. Secretary Canning
stated that there could be no doubt as to the construction of This article, as it was the amendment of that one which had last year been objected to, precisely on the ground mentioned, that it might bind us to more than we could perform. Still if we could restore Naples to the king of Sicily, we should be glad to do it, although we could not enter into any engagement to do it.
Mr. Bankes
objected to the practice of granting money, as appeared to have been done here, without the matter having been regularly before parliament, which had a right to examine into the grounds of giving away their money, and the manner in which it was expended. He also thought, that a treaty of commerce ought to have accompanied this engagement. The omission of an opportunity to do that, while we were giving away our money, might be felt in the case of Sweden, with respect to which perhaps, we might be involved in great difficulty about our Orders of Council.
Mr. Huskisson
stated that the account of the disposal of the money had been always laid before parliament, though the thing, he admitted, had not been done in the most regular way.—The Resolution was then agreed to.
[WESTMINSTER IMPROVEMENTS.]
Mr. Long
l.
Mr. Windham
objected to the mode in which the money was expended, and the bad taste which prevailed in the pretended improvements. He thought it sufficient to grant a part of this large sum at pre-
864
Mr. Long
agreed with the right hon. gent, in condemning the mock Gothic front of the house of lords. The remaining buildings should be submitted to such judgment as would insure a better taste.
Mr. Rose
said, that he really did not know under whose authority these improvements were conducted; but some of them consisted in lath and plaister, and he should be very happy that they were pulled down.
Mr. Sheridan
thought no new grant should be made till care should be taken that the new expenditure did not get into the same hands as the former. The present front of the house of lords was something like the appointment of Dr. Duigenan to the privy council, every one was ashamed of it, and nobody would avow himself the author of it. He recommended undoing the improper appointment, as well as pulling down the miserable building.
The Speaker
joined in condemning the improvements, as they were called, and, by some persons, had been thought, but for which, he declared himself in no way responsible. With respect to what was to be done, the plans were now before the house, so that it only, and not the commissioners, would be responsible, either for adopting or rejecting them.
Mr. Bankes
was glad that this subject had attracted the notice of the committee, and reprobated the practice of voting the public money, when no one was responsible for its application. He moved that instead of 75,000
l.
l.
Mr. Whitbread,
though he had every wish for œconomy, thought the present building so disgraceful that he would vote for a new one. He thought that a committee ought to be appointed to inquire who authorised the raising of the buildings, who audited the accounts, and who issued the orders for their payment.
Mr. Rose
believed that the works were ordered by the Surveyor General of the Board of Works, and that they might have been paid by an order from the Treasury. But he asserted that every shilling of the money had been accounted for, and that the accounts had been as scrupulously examined, as any public accounts ever had.
865
Lord H. Petty
condemned the front of the house of lords, and denied all knowledge of the plan.
The Speaker
said, a general order had been given to comply with the wish expressed by the house of lords for additional buildings. Nobody knew any thing of the plan till the building exhibited itself in its present form.
Mr. Huskisson
stated that, in consequence of the difficulties the Board of Treasury found in getting proper accounts from the Board of Works, measures had recently been taken to put the great expence of that Board under proper controul.
Mr. Fuller
condemned the shameful carelessness, which, from whatever quarter proceeding, was so evident, from the disgraceful state of the exterior of the house of lords. The professed object was to give that house a handsome outside; whereas, to speak plain English, its pilastres appeared nothing better than a set of elongations, to which, under certain circumstances, the members might occasionally retire. The work which had been erected was a paltry building, and he was not surprised the public thought their money thrown away upon it.
The Chancellor of the Exchequer
preferred the eyesore of the present building to the expence of pulling it down. The authority for purchasing the building was given in 1806, and notice was given to the holders inconsequence. On this ground, he thought it right to vote the original sum: which was voted accordingly.
[MR. PALMER'S CLAIM.]
Sir T. Turton,
in the committee of supply, after recapitulating the different proceedings on the Claims of Mr. Palmer, stated that a sum of about 68,000
l.
l;
l.
s.
d.
[SPAIN.]
The house having resumed, the
Chancellor of the Exchequer
866
Mr. Sheridan
thought it sufficient to observe, that he had communicated the substance of his intended motion to his right hon. friend, the secretary for foreign affairs, whose absence he had now to regret, because he was certain, that had his rt. hon. friend been present, he would have made no objection to the nature of the motion he had to propose. He had so framed it, that it was impossible the entertaining of it could cause any public detriment, or expose ministers to any violation of that discretion and secrecy which it was their duty to observe in matters of this sort. But if that right hon. gent, was ignorant of the purport of this motion, it was only a new proof of the shyness of communication which he had reason to believe existed between that right hon. gent, and his right hon. friend (Mr. Canning); otherwise he could not account for the disapprobation which the right hon. gent, had now manifested of any motion of the nature he had intended to make, being brought under the consideration of the house.
The Chancellor of the Exchequer
was not aware of any good that could arise from the agitation of such a subject, and must only suppose, that the object of the right hon. gent., in making such a motion, was merely to draw a speech from one of his majesty's ministers.
Mr. Whitbread
was anxious to dissuade his right hon. friend from stirring any inquiry into the affairs of Spain at so critical and perilous a moment. In his opinion, every matter of that kind, under the peculiar circumstances of the moment, should be left entirely and exclusively to the discretion of the executive power.
Mr. Sheridan
was determined to persist in his motion. It could be productive of no evil, and it might give rise to much good. He felt the urgency of the business, and was therefore resolved not to leave it to the slow and skulking hesitation of ministers. As to the apprehensions of his hon. friend, he was confident that he should not only be able to allay those apprehensions, but succeed in convincing his hon. friend of the propriety of the motion which he intended to make.—Mr. Sheridan having thus persisted in his motion, it was fixed for Wednesday,
867
[SUGAR DISTILLATION.]
On the motion for the third reading of the Sugar Distillation bill,
Mr. Western
rose to oppose the third reading of the bill for suspending the grain distillery. He said he could not suffer it to pass that stage, without again declaring the same decided hostility to its principle which he had avowed upon its first introduction. Nothing had been urged that removed any objection to it he had originally felt; so far from it, the more he considered the measure, in every point of view it appeared to him contrary to every principle of sound policy, infinitely mischievous, on account of the establishment of a dangerous precedent of interference with the agriculture of the country, and at the same time wholly uncalled for by any pressure, or even appearance of scarcity present or to be apprehended. If any danger should arise in consequence of the harvest being at all deficient, it might be as well guarded against by an order of council, instead of agitating the public mind by the means which had been pursued. There were two or three circumstances to which he wished to advert, relative to the consumption of grain in the distilleries and the foreign import, and which he thought it material to state to the house, especially so because he believed that the opinion which prevailed relative to the amount of such foreign grain imported, and of grain consumed in the distilleries, was very erroneous. The report of the committee tended to confirm these erroneous opinions by taking only one average of the foreign importation, namely upon the last five years, and also by not taking the last official return of the quantity of grain annually consumed in the distilleries in Ireland, amounting to 890,000 barrels. The importation of foreign corn was stated to amount to 770,000 quarters annually, and which certainly was the case upon the average of those five years; but he begged to call the attention of the house to the importation of the two last years, and which it was more material for us to consider. It would be found that the import of foreign corn in the year 1806 amounted to only 319,000 quarters. In 1807, it was certainly a great deal more, but if the two years were averaged it would not exceed 500,000 quarters each year, inclusive of the import of flour. This view of our situation ought to be exhibited to the public, as it was material in every point of view and
868
s.
s.
s.
869
870
Mr. D. Giddy and lord H. Petty opposed the bill, not from any objection to the affording protection to the West India planters, but on the ground that the principle of the bill was utterly subversive of our agricultural interests.—The question being called for, the house divided, and the numbers were, Ayes 74; Noes 34. Majority for the third reading 40. The bill was then read a third time, passed and ordered to the lords.
HOUSE OF LORDS.
Tuesday, June 14, 1808.
[Mr. PALMER'S CLAIM.]
On the motion of lord Eliot, a message was ordered to be sent to the commons, desiring a copy of the Report of the committee respecting Mr. Palmer's claims; and also a message desiring that leave might be given to the right hon. Charles Long to attend the committee of their lordships on this subject on Thursday.
HOUSE OF COMMONS.
Tuesday, June 14, 1808.
[KING'S PROCTOR.]
Sir C. Pole
rose in pursuance of the notice which he had given, to call the attention of the house and the country to the mode of conducting the business of the Navy in the High Court of Admiralty. It was a subject which he had considered of the first importance to his majesty's naval service, and on which he had more than once endeavoured to express his sentiments to the house, and to urge and pray for amendment; but, he was sorry to say, the influence which the right hon. and hon. members connected with that court possessed, had hitherto effectually prevented the alteration required: this was not to deter him from exerting his utmost to correct evils which were notorious, and which must continue to exist whilst the court was conducted as at present.—It was his intention to move two Resolutions, the one purporting that the duties of the King's Proctor or Procurator-general were so numerous, that no one person was equal to discharge them; the other, that an humble address be presented to his majesty, praying that he would appoint three or more persons to be employed as Proctors in the High Court of Admiralty and High Court of Appeal.—It would require little argument to satisfy any impartial mind with the necessity of these Resolutions, without meaning to cast the smallest cen-
871
l.
l.
872
The Advocate General
felt it necessary to oppose the Resolutions, as injurious to the interests of the nation, and of the navy itself. If the hon. officer felt so strong an impression upon the subject, it was rather matter of surprise that he had not persuaded any one of the various boards of admiralty, which had existed since he had first mentioned this subject, to think with him. And, certainly, there had been amongst those boards, some with which the hon. officer had some influence. It was to the executive or to the board of admiralty that any application should be made, and not by address from this house. The right hon. gent. then entered into a detailed statement, to shew that it was the interest of the navy itself, that the king's proctor should be employed on their behalf. Numberless complaints had within the last four years been made against privateers, and the reason was, that the owner of the privateer was his own
dominus litis,
873
Mr. H. Martin
supported the motion. Neither the prerogative of the crown, nor the interests of the nation, would be at all injured by the appointment of more than one proctor, for all the proceedings would be as much under the eye of government as before. The proctor considered himself as totally independant of the captors. It would be much better for the navy that they should be enabled to choose a proctor who would be responsible to themselves. He stated various inconveniences that resulted to the captors from the present mode of proceeding, and said, that the navy felt the utmost anxiety for the success of this motion. If it were adopted, the proceedings would be much more rapid, the captors would be much benefited, and no disadvantage whatever would result to the crown or to the public.
Mr. Stephens
observed, that the business could not be better managed than it was by the king's proctor and his assistants. He had heard no reason for an alteration in the system. Every reason, on the contrary, was against it. He affirmed that the officers of the navy would be very much injured by having the choice of their own proctors, as appeared from what actually took place from their having the appointment of their own agents. They had at present all the advantage that resulted
874
Mr. Bastard
contended, that it was the duty of that house to watch and be jealous of every office. He hoped, as the right hon. gent. had said, if the hon. baronet should carry his motion, that he would extend his motion to the office of that right hon. gent. There were certainly in the commons many persons who were as well qualified as the king's proctor to conduct the business. It had been said, that the interests of the navy itself were better provided for by the present practice; but the contrary was the impression universally felt in the navy, though most unwarrantable measures were employed by the admiralty to stifle their complaints. He knew the fact, because a petition had been put into his hands, complaining of gross abuses, and signed by many of the most respectable persons in the navy, some of whom withdrew their names, in consequence of their having been menaced with the vengeance of the admiralty; and he had refused to present the petition afterwards, lest he should thereby draw down that vengeance upon the parties. Upon these grounds he should support the Resolutions.
Mr. Farquhar
stated that if a cause extended beyond the period of two years, it must be from the fault of the parties. He bore testimony to the respectability and integrity of the present king's proctor, and expressed his surprise that this proposition should have come from any person connected with the navy.
Mr. Johnstone
observed, that all the advantages which at present resulted from the king's advocate having the management of the prize causes, would exist, though there should be two or more king's proctors; and that all the arguments about the injurious effect of an unrestricted liberty of choice were altogether inapplicable. Proceedings, he said, had often been retarded, owing to the management being in one person; and justice to the neutrals, as well as to the captors, required that some alterations should take place. He could not see why the inconveniences might not be remedied without sacrificing any of the advantages.
The Solicitor General
dissented from the motion of the hon. admiral, because, if any inconveniencies were felt from the
875
Mr. Whitbread
asserted, that so far from the question being indifferent to the navy, there was a general outcry, he might say, in the navy respecting it. He was willing to concur in all the praises which had been bestowed upon the person at present holding the office of king's proctor. But abuses had taken place before he filled the office, and such abuses might occur again. The hon. and learned gent. might as well argue, that it would be proper and fit for him to conduct every cause in the court of king's bench, as that one proctor should engross the whole business of the court of appeals. Formerly two clerks did the business of the house of commons, and continued to do so till the time of the union, when the increase of business made it necessary to have a third. But the hon. and learned gent, upon his principles, would argue, that because two had been sufficient at one time, they would be sufficient still.
The Chancellor of the Exchequer
opposed the motion, because it had not been shewn that the delays which took place, in the decision of causes in the courts of prize jurisdiction arose from a want of proctors. On the contrary, it would be easy to shew, that the interests of the captors were materially benefited by a vast number of causes passing through the hands of a single person.
Sir Samuel Romilly
thought that the best time to reform the constitution of a court of justice was when the offices in the court were respectably and unexceptionably filled; because, at such a time, all personal and party motives must necessarily be excluded. He did not pretend to be intimately acquainted with the mode
876
Mr. Robert Ward
said, that if it had occurred in times past, that the king's proctor had been employed on both sides of a cause, such regulations were now adopted, as to preclude the possibility of its happening in future.
Mr. Windham
argued, that if the king was
dominus litis
dominus litis
Sir Charles Pole
made a short reply, in which he stated, that some causes had been pending in the admiralty courts more than ten years, and that a majority had been pending more than seven years. He should think that he was wanting in his duty if he did not take the sense of the house upon the motion which he had the honour to propose.—The house then divided upon the hon. baronet's motion:
Ayes 16; Noes 35. Majority 19.
[CURATES' RESIDENCE BILL.]
The house having gone into a committee on this bill, a variety of amendments were made thereto: among the most prominent of which was one proposed by the Speaker, who wished to give to the clergy of the archiepiscopal dioceses, the same privilege of appeal as that which would be enjoyed under the act by the clergy of the episcopal dioceses. The clergy of the episcopal dioceses had a right of appeal from the bishop of their dioceses to the archbishop; the Speaker proposed a clause, by which the clergy of the archiepiscopal dioceses should have the right of appeal to the king in council. The Chancellor of the Exchequer proposed to modify this amendment, by making the appeal lie, not to the king in council, but to the king, who should be empowered to appoint Delegates or Commissioners under the Great
877
HOUSE OF COMMONS.
Wednesday, June 15, 1808.
[CRIMINAL LAW.]
On the motion of sir Samuel Romilly, that the house resolve itself into a committee of the whole house on the Privately Stealing bill,
Mr. Burton
said, that during the last twenty or thirty years it had been his lot to have some experience in the administration of the Criminal Law; he should therefore be wanting in his duty to the public, as well as respect to his learned friend, if he omitted to pay what attention he could to the present bill; and he was desirous to state a few observations upon it before the Speaker left the chair, because they were connected with the principle of the bill. He confessed he was somewhat at a loss whether to look for the principle in the enacting part, or the preamble, because they seemed to be at variance with each other, or at least not co-extensive. The preamble laid down very general abstract positions, which far exceeded the object of the bill, and went to condemn a very large proportion of our criminal laws. Now, in his opinion (without stopping to discuss the truth of the positions), nothing could be more objectionable than to pronounce by statute such a parliamentary condemnation of a great part of our criminal laws, and yet to leave those very laws in full force. To him, consequently, it appeared indispensable to expunge the preamble altogether, and introduce another suited to the limited object of the bill. The principle, as it was to be collected from the enacting part, was to abolish the capital punishment, and to reduce the offence as well as the punishment, down to the standard of simple larceny. Now so far as it took away the punishment of death, he was inclined to approve it; because sentences of death often pronounced in cases where they were scarcely ever fit to be executed, tended much to diminish their effect: but he could by no
878
879
880
Mr. Herbert
(of Kerry) likewise objected to the preamble of the bill. Human laws, he said, were made for preventing, not for avenging crimes, and hence it often happened that punishments seemed to be disproportioned to the crimes. There were two different kinds of criminal legislation, according to archdeacon Paley: the one was that which assigned capital punishments only to the highest species of crimes; the other, that which, had been adopted in this country, assigned capital punishments to a variety of crimes, but inflicted it upon only a few persons of each class by way of example. He had no hesitation in confessing that he agreed in opinion with the excellent author to whom he had alluded, but he should not be so averse to the bill itself were it not for the declaration in the preamble. He hoped, however, that at all events it would be postponed till another session.
Sir Arthur Piggott
agreed that the criminal law of the land ought not rashly to be altered. But he contended that the law had not answered the great purpose of preventing crimes, and that its failure ought to be ascribed to its severity, which in many instances prevented persons from prosecuting those guilty of smaller offences. How far it might be proper to modify the severity of the punishment, was another question not now before the house, and which would furnish matter of discussion in the committee.
The Solicitor General
thought that there was at least so much good in the bill as to sanction the going into a committee
881
Mr. C. W. Wynne
confessed that the house ought not rashly to alter the criminal law of the country. The law, however, which it was now proposed to change, had never been executed in the recollection of any person now living. The consequence of this was, that its effect was lessened, because the probability of escape was great. He was of opinion, that it might be expedient to leave a discretionary power to the judges, of transporting for life persons guilty of the offences to which the bill applied; indeed, he thought, that transportation for life was generally preferable to transportation for a limited time; because when the culprits returned, being wholly without character or protection, they were in most cases compelled to revert to their former habits.
Mr. Ponsonby
agreed with those who were of opinion, that the house ought to go into a committee on the bill; because there was nothing in the bill which ought not to be the great object of all criminal law, namely, suiting the punishment to the crime.
Mr. Leycester
contended, that the law could never provide satisfactorily for the great variety of cases, in which it would be to be decided by circumstances, whether the offence should or should not be punished with severity. It was only by the discretion of the judge that cases of this kind could be properly regulated, and therefore he disapproved of the principle of the bill.
Sir Ralph Milbanke
thought that the less discretion was left in the administration of criminal justice, the better; and agreed with a learned author, who had said, that it was better to have law without equity, than equity without law. He should certainly vote for going into a committee on the bill.
Sir Samuel Romilly
did hope that this bill would pass in the present session. He thought the preamble of the bill ought to be retained. It contained the reasons on which he brought in the bill, and on which he hoped it would pass. But if gentlemen thought differently from him, he would give up the preamble, and be
882
883
The Solicitor-General
stated his reasons for proposing certain new clauses. He should suggest certain alterations, both in the description of the offence, and in the punishment to be inflicted. It was a crame of considerable magnitude, and was, no doubt, daily increasing. He could state, however, what appeared to him to be one real cause of criminals having been so often acquitted of the charge of privately stealing. If, upon a trial, it turned out that an individual lost his purse or watch, and had, in the moment, perceived the act committed, that circumstance freed the criminal from the capital part of the punishment. If, on the contrary, the individual robbed perceived the commission of the fact, it being generally committed by gangs of persons, who transferred the property from one to another, still that individual could not fix upon the very person whose hand took the property, and consequently the whole of the criminals were acquitted of the capital part of the charge. This, he thought, accounted much more naturally for the frequent instances of impunity which had occurred. The offence was that of feloniously taking property from the person of another. Grand larceny occurred where property was either taken from the person, or feloniously from a house, and it would therefore be aggravating the offence. He should propose to omit, in the description of the offence, stating whether it was privately or not, in order to contra-distinguish it from robbery, which was the taking of property with violence; although he thought it was an offence bordering upon it; as he believed, there were persons much disposed to use force upon such occasions should they meet with any resistance. He therefore thought, it was a felony that ought to be punished with more severity than mere simple larceny, and he should propose, that a punishment somewhat more adequate than that stated in the bill should be substituted; leaving it at the same time in some degree to the discretion of the Judge, according to the circumstances of the case. His object was to get a punishment somewhat above that of mere larceny, and at the same time below that of a capital offence. He should propose that the highest punishment should be transportation for life, and that the lowest punishment should be
884
Mr. Windham
opposed the principle of making transportation the
minimum
Mr. Horner
considered reform necessary for the purpose of bringing the law, as it now stood, to the original principles of its institution. He quoted a passage from Judge Blackstone before alluded to, stating that sir H. Spelman had, above a century before, lamented, that although all things had, since the original foundation of our law, on this head, in the time of the Saxon monarchy, extraordinarily increased in price, yet the life of man was daily growing cheaper, by permitting it to be forfeited for the peculation of the same sum for which it had been forfeited in the reign of the Saxons. It should therefore be the business of the present times to reduce the law to its ancient state; and if the same punishments were continued, to equalize them to the crime, or in other words, to the value of the goods thus stolen. He felt it his duty to oppose the clause as too novel; in fact, it was much more so than the bill itself; though the proposition came from an hon. member who was the more averse to the bill from the consideration of its tendency to innovation. Besides, the clause had come into the house under the most inauspicious circumstances, whilst the bill was in a committee, and without any notice. These circumstances could not escape the attention of the house, nor
885
Mr. Burton
contended that transportation for limited periods failed often of producing that salutary effect on the morals of the convicts which it was expected this mode of punishment would have had. If the punishment were only resorted to in such instances as would justify its continuance for life, it would be cutting off all hope of return to the old scene of their criminality, and probably correct those vicious propensities they had formerly indulged in. He concurred most heartily in remitting, in several instances, the punishment of death, for other less punishments. Though he was decidedly in favour of the system of giving a latitude to the discretionary power of the Judge, in proportioning the severity of the punishment to the nature of the crime.
Mr. Abercromby
considered it a defect in the law of England, not to extend transportation to the natural period of the criminal's existence. He reprobated the idea of increasing the discretionary power of the judge. The law, he thought, should be clear, discriminatory, and decisive, and the less was left to the arbitrary will of the judge, the better. It had been said, that as there were many shades of difference, it would be better the judge should have a proportionate option: admitting even this position, still it would not follow, that transportation for life would not be a national as well as an individual advantage. Whatever might be the nature of the confinement, or punishment, as it was termed, of transportation, it was certain, a temporary banishment was productive of no good effects to the morals of the convicts. Was it, then, proper to send so many young persons and children out to that colony for a short space, who, in the course of nature, might be expected to return pregnant with all the accumulated contagion of those more experienced offenders, who had grown old in habitual vice and infamy? From his present view of the importance of this subject, he assured the house he would early in the next session move, that a Committee be appointed to take into consideration what advantages had followed the introduction of the present system.
Mr. Wharton,
the chairman, thought the most regular way of introducing the present clause to the consideration of the house, would be by first reporting progress, and then moving in the house, that
886
Sir Samuel Romilly
observed, that he had not justly incurred the censure so liberally bestowed on him, of indulging in wild theories. The imputation he thought unjust, and undeserved: his intentions were to restore, not to shake, the foundation of the common law. The clause he censured as altogether objectionable. The duration of the punishment for seven years was sufficient to answer all the purposes expected. He wished, if possible, the clause should be received, in order that it might be fully discussed, when the house was in possession of both the act itself and the clause in point.
Sir Charles Bunbury
thought very few of those transported for seven years ever were able to come back at the expiration of their sentence: this, so far from being a national benefit, was a national reflection on our justice.—The bill was then recommitted, and the clause added to it; and the house having resumed, the report was received, and ordered to be taken into further consideration on Wednesday.
[AFFAIRS OF SPAIN.]
Mr. Sheridan
rose, and spoke as follows:—"Mr. Speaker; however I may regret that the proposition which I had the honour of giving notice that it was my intention to bring forward this evening, has been postponed until this late hour, and that the attention of the house must be considerably exhausted by the discussion which has just terminated, yet, sir, I still think it right to submit to their consideration, the important subject which was the object of that notice. I cannot conceal that a kind of negociation has been carrying on between my right hon. friend opposite (Mr. Canning) and myself, in the course of which, my right hon. friend expressed his wish that I would put off my motion for this evening, because I the distinguished persons who have lately come over to England to represent to the British government the state and disposition of their native country, are at this very moment partaking of the hospitalities of his mansion. Sir, I allow that this was a strong reason on the part of my right hon. friend for desiring a postponement of this business; for I believe, with all my right hon. friend's public spirit and enthusiasm, that he has no very great inclination to lose a good dinner. But as my right hon. friend has detached a very able gene-
887
888
889
Mr. Secretary Canning
replied nearly as follows:—Mr. Speaker, I am disposed to give every credit to my right hon. friend for his motives in agitating this subject, and I can assure him, that he is very much mistaken if he imagines that it was intended to check or rebuke him, by any thing that was said on a recent evening from this side of the house. At that time al-
890
891
Mr. Ponsonby
perfectly agreed with the right hon. gent. in the objections he had made to the motion of his right hon. friend, and early foresaw those objections. He thought there was much of the information sought for that they could not grant; and of the little they had, perhaps none that it would be prudent to communicate. In such circumstances, neither he, nor any man as ignorant upon the subject as he acknowledged himself to be, could attempt to advise his majesty's ministers what course to pursue, when their course was ultimately to be regulated by that information of which they were exclusively possessed. He therefore could not divine the object of the motion of his right hon. friend. He denied, for himself, that it would operate upon him as a pledge of his future opinions upon the conduct of his majesty's ministers in this important crisis; as, until he had witnessed it, he could not possibly judge of it.
Mr. Whitbread,
as his right hon. friend had devoted the greater part of the exordium of his speech upon him, hoped he should be allowed to say a very few words. In the first place, his right hon. friend had mistaken him, when he had represented him as anxious to load ministers with all
892
Mr. Secretary Canning
rose to explain a misconception which the hon. gent. seemed to feel, as to what he had stated respecting the objects to be prosecuted in the contest. He had mentioned British objects on that occasion, for the purpose only of disclaiming them as any part of the considerations which influenced his majesty's government. In this contest in which Spain, was embarked, no interest could be so purely British as Spanish success; no conquest so advantageous for G. Britain, as conquering from France the complete integrity of the dominions of Spain in every quarter of the world.
Mr. Whitbread
was glad that he had
893
Mr. Windham,
though there were many important topics belonging to this question, and arising out of the discussion as far as it had hitherto gone, did not mean to offer any observation upon them. He had then risen only to touch upon one or two particulars, which were more personal than any general reference to the general situation of the country; the one that it might not be misunderstood, and the other to rectify a mistake that might prevail respecting it. And here he must observe the gloomy prospect held up at the onset by the bad specimens of candour, openness, and ingenuousness, with which the right hon. gent, had endeavoured to construe the sentiments expressed by his right hon. friend, as pledging the whole of those who acted with him to a general support of the measures of administration. [A cry of No, from the treasury bench.] If not to their other measures, to those at least which might be connected with the object which his right hon. friend had in view. He had felt it necessary on his part to disclaim being included in any such pledge, and he hoped this construction of the right hon. gent. was not a specimen of the openness which the house was to expect in the progress of this transaction. The points upon which he wished to touch were, first, the advice which had been given by his right hon. friend to ministers, either to do a great deal, or to do nothing in this case. If his right hon. friend meant by doing a great deal, to send a large force to the assistance of Spain, he feared that we should not be able to do that. But it was not thence to be concluded that nothing was to be done. Though we could not assist them in the highest degree, it did not follow that we might not do what would be extremely serviceable to them. The part of his right hon. friend's sentiments in which he completely concurred, was that in which he recommended not to adopt the conduct that had been pursued in former wars since the commencement of the French revolution. It was his decided opinion, that we should not mix little British interests with this important question. He was happy to agree with his right hon. friend on this point; though he could not concur with him as to the alternative, or admit his conclusion, that if a great deal could not be done, nothing was to be done. The other point upon which he wished to touch, related to the
894
895
Lord Castlereagh
observed, that enough had been said as to the discussion of the motion, in what had fallen from the right hon. gent, who brought it forward, and from his right hon. friend who followed him; yet certain topics had been touched upon by other gentlemen in the course of the debate, which rendered it impossible for him to pass them over without observation. Undoubtedly, a difference of opinion might exist as to the propriety of bringing forward the motion; but of this he was convinced, that in the view which the right hon. gent, had taken of the subject, no mischief could possibly arise from the discussion. He did not press any proposition upon his majesty's ministers which required any improper disclosure. It had been brought forward by a right hon. gent., who, on all occasions of difficulty, in every crisis of the country, waving all political hostility, had uniformly come forward in support of the country. The hon. gentlemen opposite were, unquestionably, not pledged by the sentiments expressed by that right hon. gent, to a general support of government. It was not an irrational pledge of that description to which his right hon. friend had adverted, and, if the gentlemen on the other side were not disposed to concur in the feelings and sentiments of that right hon. gent., if they felt not a disposition to assist the Spanish nation on this opening for resistance to the tyranny of France, they certainly were at liberty to pursue what cause they might deem most expedient. But on this, as on every former occasion, they seemed in language to have disowned the right hon. gent, who had from such laudable motives brought forward this question. The house and the country would not fail to contrast the tone of that right hon. gent.'s speech with the chilling language of the hon. gentlemen on the bench with him.—He had to regret the course of the observations pursued by the right hon.
896
897
Earl Temple
regretted that the discussion had taken place, and was sorry for the manner in which the question had been discussed. However important the lesson of his noble friend as to recrimination, and the consistency of remaining in a government with which he differed, he must regret that the people of Spain, who looked to this country for support, should find that this question had been made a ground of recrimination by gentlemen on both sides of the house. He hoped that the principle stated by his right hon. friend, of considering any power that should be at war with France as in alliance with us, would not be acted upon to the full extent. He thought that they should not be considered as our allies any longer than whilst they would fight with us to obtain a secure and honourable peace.
Mr. Secretary Canning
again explained. He had been misunderstood by his noble friend, if he had supposed him to have stated the principle to that extent. He had intended expressly to say, that we should consider all powers embarked in hostility with France as our allies, engaged in a common object for the attainment of a safe and honourable peace, and not for purposes of perpetual war.
Earl Temple
was glad he had given his right hon. friend an opportunity of making this satisfactory explanation.
Mr. Sheridan
did not feel it necessary to reply. His object was to awaken the country to the opportunity which, if the information from Spain was true, might lead to the rescue of Europe, and to the release of oppressed countries from the grasp of a ruthless conqueror. He had, however, no objection to withdraw his motion, convinced that much benefit must
898
[VOTE OF CREDIT.]
On the motion of the Chancellor of the Exchequer, the house resolved itself into a committee of supply. The right hon. gent, stated to the committee, that the Vote of Credit, of which he had given notice, was 2,500,000
l.
l.
l.
l
l
l
l
l.
s.
[FOREIGN PROPERTY IN THE FUNDS.]
The order of the day being read for the house to resolve itself into a committee of ways and means,
Mr. Bankes
Mr. Magens
opposed the measure in contemplation, as contrary to our established policy. He was persuaded that if the property of foreigners was to be subjected to this tax, it would prove extremely injurious to the prosperity and wealth of this country.
Mr. Sharp
was sorry that the subject had been mentioned at all. The sum was extremely small, but the sacrifice of principle would be great. No advantage could be derived from such a measure as this, that would be at all equal to the injury which it would produce.
Sir T. Turton
said that the income tax was in its operation altogether unjust and oppressive; but there was no part of it more unjust than this exemption. It was fair, reasonable and proper, that foreigners who had property in the funds should equally with the subjects of this country pay for the security of that property.
Mr. W. Smith
did not think the measure unjust; but at the same time, he thought that it was impolitic to press it at present.
Lord H. Petty
observed that the tax in question was not a property tax, but one on the profits derived from property. It would have been impossible to have got
899
Mr. Bankes
denied that there could be any injustice in this measure, as the state had certainly an eminent dominion over the property, and the utmost that foreigners could expect was, to be placed on the same footing with the natives of this country. He asserted that the exemption originated, and had been continued, in prejudice and delusion. Foreigners placed their money in our funds for their own advantage, from the superior security and profit which they afforded. There was no reason why they should not pay for this. They were generally aliens; and though this country owed them justice, they were entitled to no favour from it.
Mr. Windham
thought, that good policy was in favour of the exemption, as the advantage we derived from foreign property, as it stood at present, was greater than any we could have from the tax imposed on all that would then remain.
The Chancellor of the Exchequer
said, that he had attended much to this subject, and felt much embarrassment how to give his vote. If he voted against the motion at present, he confessed that he should do so from a deference to character, and to what had been done before, contrary to the inclination of his own opinion. He took a review of the arguments on this subject, and observed that he did not see any reason in point of justice that would exempt foreigners more than the people of this country. But there were considerations of policy that appeared to him to render it inexpedient to alter the system at the present moment, though he did not conceive that the imposition of the tax would withdraw any material portion of this property from our funds. But the principal reason that induced him to oppose the measure at the moment, was, that it might produce a very bad effect, by persuading our enemy, that his measures against us had in some degree succeeded.
Mr. Hibbert
said, that from the tenor of the debate, he conjectured that the subject would not be brought forward very soon again for discussion; and he was anxious, by more than a silent vote on this occasion, to express his decided opposition to the
900
901
HOUSE OF LORDS.
Thursday, June 16, 1808.
[BANK OF IRELAND.]
Lord Grenville
adverted to the bill then before the house for renewing the Charter of the Bank of Ireland, and expressed his surprise that the former charter of the bank had not been laid before, the house. He would, however, shortly proceed to state the grounds of his intended motion. At the time of granting the charter of the bank of Ireland, in 1783, the penal laws against the catholics, that horrid code which all men now joined in condemning, had been happily repealed. There remained, however, disqualifications which prevented catholics from holding any office either in the state or in corporations. In the year 1793 the greater part of these disqualifications were repealed, and with the exception of a few offices, they were allowed to hold generally, offices in the state, and also in lay corporations. They were allowed to be colonels of regiments, governors of fortresses, and to rise to eminent stations in all the professions. The question here was, whether, in allowing them to hold any of these important offices, it was intended to exclude them from the office of governor or director of the bank of Ireland. There was a contrariety of opinion amongst men eminent in the law upon this subject, and thus a considerable doubt had arisen. By the act of 1793, Roman-catholics were allowed to hold the offices mentioned, notwithstanding any statute or bye-law; the word charter was not mentioned, and from this omission it was argued by some eminent men, that catholics being ex-
902
Lord Hawkesbury
thought such a mode of proceeding as that advised by the noble baron wholly unprecedented, or at least highly inconsistent with the usual practice of the house. The bill before their lordships was strictly and directly a financial measure, and on such measures were it necessary to take the opinion of the Judges, the public business would be at a stand, or be protracted to an insufferable length of time. The point which the noble baron's motion involved was only an incidental one, and left the law as it now stood. He was therefore at a loss to conceive with what practical good effect his acceding to the noble baron's motion could be attended. It was open to a catholic, should the proprietors of the bank think proper to select him, to bring his
903
The Duke of Norfolk
contended that the noble secretary was doing that which he himself was reprobating in others; for he was prejudging the question, by the tone he assumed in ultimately deciding on the claims of the catholics. If the Judges decided that the catholics were eligible, he would move that the law be altered on the subject, if his noble friend who made the motion should not think proper to do so.
The Earl of Lauderdale
thought it most extraordinary that the noble secretary of state should wish to keep the house in ignorance, as to what was the law. It was said of catholic priests, that they wished to keep their flocks in ignorance, and prevent them even from reading holy writ; and it might almost be supposed that the noble lord, in wishing to keep the house in ignorance, really cherished and acted upon the same principles. Those noble lords, however, who saw the greater danger in offices being held by catholics, must surely concur in endeavouring to ascertain the law upon this subject, as, if catholics were eligible to the direction of the Bank, the greatest to the state must in the opinion of those noble lords ensure.
904
The Lord Chancellor
could not agree to ask the opinion of the Judges unless it was proposed to legislate upon that opinion. It was, besides, a matter of great doubt with him, whether, supposing such a question to be put, the Judges would not tell their lordships that they did not know what was meant by a Roman-catholic; they knew that persons were excluded from certain offices who did not take certain oaths, and it should not be disguised from the public, that this, after all, was the real question in all the discussions on the Catholic question; namely, whether persons who did not take certain oaths should be disqualified from holding certain offices? With respect to this subject he thought it right to declare his opinion, that it would be an event deeply calamitous if the protestant ascendancy were weakened. He held the opinion which had been held by Russel, Somers, lord Hardwicke, and other eminent men; that the support of the protestant church was intimately connected with the maintenance of our civil and religious liberties. He would not say, that under no circumstances ought further concessions to be made to the catholics; but he could not foresee the circumstances in which such concessions would be politic. It should never be forgotten, in considering this subject, that the guards which were necessary to maintain our religious liberties were not the less necessary for the support of our civil liberties. He could see no ground for putting this question to the Judges, unless it was first ascertained that some legislative proceeding was to be founded upon it, nor had he heard of any doubt upon the subject of the interpretation of the act.
Lord Holland
expressed his surprise that the noble and learned lord had declared opinions now which he did not do when the general question was under discussion,
905
Lord Harrowby
opposed putting a question to the Judges, on the ground that no practical good could be derived from it.
Earl Spencer
thought that in this instance there was clearly a doubt, and that the only way of getting rid of it was to have the opinion of the Judges.
Lord Mulgrave
saw no ground for putting the question, unless the house should previously determine to found on it some legislative proceeding.
The Earl of Rosslyn
thought it essentially desirable, that where doubts existed as to the construction of laws about to be continued, those doubts should be removed. No person could argue against the removal of the doubts existing in the case before their lordships, but those who thought it matter of perfect indifference whether catholics should or should not be directors of the bank of Ireland. To those who were adverse to the admission of catholics to the direction, and to those who were friendly to that admission, the removal of the doubts, confirmed by the very proviso of the present bill, for preserving to the catholics the full enjoyment of the rights granted in 1793, by the act of the Irish parliament, was matter of the greatest importance.
Lord Grenville
, in reply, observed, that
906
907
The house then divided upon lord Grenville's motion:
Contents
16;
Proxies
17–33
Not-contents
42;
Proxies
52–94
Majority
—61
HOUSE OF COMMONS.
Thursday, June 16, 1808.
[FINANCE COMMITTEE.]
Mr. Whitbread
rose for the purpose of putting a question to an hon. gent. in his eye, the answer to which appeared to him necessary for the satisfaction of the public. As the session was drawing to a close, it was desirable to ascertain, whether or not the house and the country were to expect a report from the committee, at the head of which that hon. gent. so worthily presided. Rumours were afloat, that a Report of a very important nature had been decided upon in the committee. He was sure that the hon. gent. would not take it ill to be thus questioned on the subject.
Mr. Bankes
, while he allowed that the question put by the hon. gent. was a perfectly fair one, declared that really he hardly knew how to answer it. He could only say, that for his own part, nothing had been wanting to enable the committee to lay before the house their report. During the present session almost every hour which was not occupied by his duty in the house had been devoted to his duty above stairs. So far back as before the Easter recess, he had laid before the committee the materials of a report which was complete as far as it related to himself to make it so. Unfortunately, a considerable difference of opinion existed in the committee on the subject of that report, and the discussions upon it had proceeded to a much greater length than could have been expected or foreseen. Those discussions still continued. He could only repeat, that nothing should be wanting on his part to bring them to a speedy termination; that in his opinion the report might be laid oil the table of the house to-morrow; and that he should very much lament that the circumstances which he had mentioned should operate to delay the presentation of it beyond the present session.
Mr. Whitbread
thanked the hon. gent. for his candid explanation, and disclaimed
908
[COMMUTATION OF TYTHES IN IRELAND.]
Mr. M. Fitzgerald
, (knight of Kerry) in what he was about to say, disclaimed all idea of any wish to embarrass government. In at all touching on this subject, he was anxious chiefly for two things; first, that ministers should not suppose, from the paucity of petitions, that the question was not one of very general interest in Ireland, or which they were on that account entitled to undervalue; secondly, he was anxious to prevent the people of Ireland from feeling any thing like distrust in those who were to bring forward these petitions. He felt himself bound to refute the calumnies which had been propagated, alleging that the disturbances in his county had been occasioned by the meeting to consider of the petition in question. It might be sufficient, in answer to this calumny, to state, that these disturbances had existed for years before, and that, after the meeting to consider of the Commutation of Tythes, they had abated rather than increased. The same he could also state as to other petitions. Another stigma attempted to be fixed on the favourers of this measure was, that an improper advantage was sought to be got for the land owners, at the expence of the church. For his part, he disclaimed every idea of the kind. He wished that the church and clergy should have their rights preserved entire; but that the present mode of levying the tythes should be commuted for one more equal and less burthensome. This was no catholic question; it did not partake of a religious feeling; it was supported by the county of Armagh, than which no county in Ireland was more, or rather so completely, protestant. It was a measure wished for by all classes, and even by the protestant clergy. He did not pretend to say that the petitions were so numerous as to entitle him to allege that it was at the moment a measure of necessity; therefore he should not urge referring the petition to a
909
The Chancellor of the Exchequer
availed himself of the opportunity afforded him by the right hon. gent.'s motion, distinctly to state that it was the intention of his majesty's government seriously to consider this business, of the importance of which they were completely convinced. He had already paid considerable attention to it himself, but he regretted to observe, that the further he went into the examination, the more arduous did the task appear, and that the undertaking of applying a remedy to the evil, appeared to be beset with difficulties almost insurmountable. He repeated, however, that every effort should be made to remove them.
Mr. Parnell
expressed his satisfaction at the sentiments which the house had just heard from the right hon. gentleman.
Mr. Ponsonby
considered this to be a question of importance to the well-being of Ireland. Any new mode of levying the tithes did, indeed, present numberless obstacles: he hoped, however, they were not insurmountable, but such as might be overcome to the satisfaction of all parties by time and patience. He reposed all confidence in government that every means would be adopted to accomplish this object.
General Mathew
stated, that he held in his hand a Petition on the subject from the county of Tipperary, but that after what had fallen from the right hon. gent. he should refrain from presenting it.
Sir G. Hill
was anxious to know whether or not his majesty's government intended to take into their consideration the commutation of tithes in England as well as in Ireland. He deprecated any interference on this point in the one country which did not extend to the other.
Mr. Herbert
recommended, in strong terms, the measure of a commutation, which he was convinced would not be attended with any insuperable difficulty, and which he was satisfied would be as acceptable to the clergy as to the laity. He knew several instances in which clergymen had declared to him that they would be willing to abate a sixth of their clerical revenue, if it could be collected with more facility,
910
Mr. Burton
was by no means of opinion that this was an easy subject. In that part of England, where for many years he had been engaged in the discharge of his professional duties, the adjustment of tithes had ever been attended with more complication and difficulty than any other matter which had fallen under his notice; and he had just been told by an hon. friend near him, that in the county of Devon a very vigorous attempt which had been made to arrange the commutation of tithes had been abandoned, on the experience of the impossibility of success.
Mr. Sheridan
trusted that the people of Ireland would not relax in their petitions to parliament on this subject, fully convinced as he was that whatever might be said by his majesty's government, it was to parliament alone that eventually they must look for redress. He completely differed from the hon. and learned gent. who had just spoken, with respect to the nature of the difficulties by which this subject was surrounded. In his opinion they were difficulties which a little attention might obviate. In cases of inclosure they were obviated at present, and he could not conceive why the principles which applied to inclosures might not be generally diffused over the whole system of the country. While he was on his legs he would say a few words on a subject in which he was more personally concerned. At the close of the last session of parliament, in consequence of the passing of two bills, which as they were now legislative acts, he would not characterise in the terms of abhorrence which justly belonged to them, he had given a solemn notice of his intention early in the present session of parliament, to move for a committee to examine the general state of Ireland. On the meeting of parliament, however, he had been induced by the recommendation of those to whose advice he must ever listen with deference on all subjects, and more especially on every thing which related to Ireland, to postpone his motion until after the discussion of the Catholic Petition; a discussion, the good effects of which on the general feeling of the house and of the country, were very plainly discernible. Since that discussion he had been induced still further to delay his motion by various motives, of which the approaching consideration of the subject immediately before the house, was one of the
911
Mr. Ponsonby
thanked his right hon. friend for his condescension; stating that he had made the application, from an unwillingness again so suddenly to agitate a question which, so far from tranquillizing the people of Ireland, must have had a contrary effect.
Mr. Rose, Mr. Bastard, sir W. Elford, and Mr. Lockhart, each said a few words; after which, Mr. Fitzgerald obtained leave to withdraw his motion.
[EXPIRING LAWS BILL.]
The Chancellor of the Exchequer moved the order of the day for the house going into a committee on the bill for remedying inconveniences resulting from the expiration of certain laws.
Mr. Sheridan
objected to the Speaker's leaving the chair. Why did not ministers prevent those inconveniences which they now called upon parliament to remedy? It was in their power to have prevented the evil, and why had they not done so? They knew what laws were about to expire, and why had they not provided in due time? It appeared to be a bill which might be well entitled, 'A bill for the better encouraging the laziness, indolence and neglect of his majesty's ministers.' It was too uniformly assumed that the bill would pass. The act which was to be continued might have expired before the bill for reviving it had passed, and thus the offence proscribed against cease to be criminal, or on the other hand, what was infinitely more serious, that which had ceased to be criminal, might, by a sort of latent revival, become suddenly penal, and thus a man might inadvertently be guilty of a crime, and hanged in a parenthesis. He thought the bill replete with absurdities, and no consideration would incline him to yield to the motion for the Speaker's leaving the chair, unless it was that of having the advantage of his high authority and parliamentary experience in the committee.
The Chancellor of the Exchequer
contended, that this measure was not a violation of the usages of parliament for centuries; because the session of parliament, according to parliamentary usage, was considered but as one day. It was only a few years ago that an act was passed to provide that acts of parliament were to have effect from the day of passing; whereas, antecedently, all acts had reference to the first day of
912
Mr. Ponsonby
thanked the right hon. gent. for having attended to the suggestion made by him respecting the inexpediency of continuing penalties by this bill, when he had first mentioned the subject. The objections of his right hon. friend would have been unanswerable against the original bill, if it had not been for the proviso introduced by the right hon. gent. for excepting penalties. But, certainly, the introduction of that proviso removed a great part of these objections; and, with this proviso, he thought that the bill might be productive of benefit in certain cases.—The house then went into a committee.
Mr. Sheridan
renewed his objections to the principle, and thought it was an admission of the indolence of his majesty's ministers.—The bill then passed through the committee.
HOUSE OF LORDS.
Friday, June 17, 1808.
[DROITS OF ADMIRALTY.]
The Earl of Suffolk
rose to make his promised motion relative to the Droits of Admiralty. He observed, that he was not in the habit of troubling their lordships in regard to any subject which he might think proper to present to their attention. Previous to the present, he had taken several opportunities of making inquiries relative to the appropriation of the Droits of Admiralty, the amount of which now in the hands of the crown was certainly greater than it had been at any former period. It was highly important, that the people of this country should know what was likely to become of the property now vested in the crown,
913
914
Lord Hawkesbury
observed, that whatever information the noble earl might have received about the amount, it could only proceed from speculation, no returns having yet been made, as the sales of the property had not been effected. But whenever the returns could be made, and they came regularly before the house, he would then give his opinion on the subject.
Lord Holland
thought the question of the greatest importance; the more peculiarly so, since the practice had prevailed for these forty years past, of seizing upon foreign property before the declaration of hostilities. The Droits of Admiralty had increased to an enormous extent; and yet, in arranging the Civil List revenue, no regard had been paid to them, and we had been called upon no less than five times within not a great space of time to pay off the debts contracted on the civil list, besides augmenting considerably that revenue. The question, therefore, was one well worthy of their lordships' attention; and although he would advise his noble friend to withdraw his motion for the present, yet he hoped he would persevere in bringing it again forward in a future session.
The Earl of Suffolk
said, that after what he had heard from the noble secretary of state and his noble friend, he had no objection to withdraw his motion, but pledged himself to bring it forward again.
[LOCAL MILITIA BILL.]
Lord Hawkesbury
, on the motion for their lordships' going into a committee on the Local Militia bill, rose and stated, that the principle of this bill went not only to provide for the present exigency, but was intended as a great permanent measure of national defence. In a new system of this kind, it was not expected that it should be devoid of imperfections; but he thought the general policy of the measure could not be denied. It must be confessed, that the present situation of the world was such as demanded all our exertions to place this country in a state of defence which should bid defiance to every attempt that could be made against her. The volunteer system was not one which he should object to as far as it went, but it was a system which could not altogether be depended on, when practically viewed, because its efficacy rested entirely upon the spirit which might prevail at the time, and which might dwindle and evaporate. This con-
915
The Earl of Selkirk
did not rise to oppose going into the committee upon this bill, for he sincerely concurred with the noble secretary of state in the sentiments he had expressed with regard to the principle of the measure. He agreed that the measure should be made as conformable as possible with the civil occupations of the subject: he agreed that, however zealous and active the volunteer fore might be, and for which he gave it ample credit, yet it was not wholly to be depended upon; he regretted, however, that the measure was not of greater extent, and more adapted to general principles. After taking an extensive view of the different local forces of the country, the noble earl proceeded to recommend, according to his own system, that instead of ballot, an enrolment of all the young men of the country, from the age of 18 to 25, should take place; that there should neither be substitution nor purchase, but that it should equally affect every class of his majesty's subjects. He concluded with declaring his intention to move some amendments in the committee.
The Earl of Buckinghamshire
approved most cordially of the measure as grafted
916
The Earl of Moira
had observed with regret, that the volunteers had been undervalued, and that they were said to be badly disciplined; but in that part of the island where he had particular opportunities of knowing what the volunteers were, he was so convinced of their efficiency, that he would cheerfully head them against any force that could be opposed to them by invasion. It was true that they could not be expected to be so well disciplined, or so good, as veteran troops that had been frequently in the field, but there was no comparison to be made between them, and those intended to be raised by the present bill, as he considered the former infinitely superior in every respect. A rumour had prevailed that although the volunteers in Scotland might be good, yet those in the southern part of the island were not so well disciplined; but suppose, for the sake of argument, that it was so, although he did not know it to be true, did it follow that they could not be rendered as efficient if proper measures were to be pursued? He had no doubt that it would be so, but unfortunately no steps were taken to keep up the patriotic spirit among the volunteers; on the contrary, they had been, for some reason or other, cried down.
Lord Hawkesbury
explained, that he did
917
Lord Holland
was not averse to the principle of the bill, as far as it proposed a substitution for the volunteers, which he did not approve of as a means of defence; and although the noble secretary of state would not allow that he meant it as a substitution for the volunteers, yet the plan as he stated it, as well as the nature of the bill, went to produce that effect. But although he approved of the principle, yet the manner of carrying it on did not meet his approbation; for he could have wished it had been assimilated more nearly to the ancient militia, or that his right hon. friend's Training act had been carried forward, which, although liable to some objections, might have been rendered far more beneficial and advantageous to the country. Enrolment was far preferable to compulsory means, such as were to be resorted to by the bill; as it was not to be expected, that the men procured by the latter, would act with such energy against an invading enemy, when under the consideration that they were impelled to serve. The noble lord said, he approved of the observations that had fallen from a noble earl on the cross bench, relative to Spain and Ireland; for although a gleam of hope held out the idea that the glorious struggle of the Spaniards would ultimately prove successful as to them, yet it did not follow of consequence that France would not still be formidable; and if she still should remain so, it behoved ministers to conciliate the Irish, without which, all their schemes of defence in this country were illusory.
Viscount Sidmouth
supported the measure, but did not think with his noble friend (lord Selkirk), that an armed peasantry constituted the best force against an enemy; at the same time that he approved of the general principle, he thought that all adults from eighteen to twenty-one should serve without distinction, without exemption or purchase, and this would inspire them with a military ardour and spirit: this he thought would place the country out of the reach of any hostile attack. His lordship wished to see the militia of Ireland so incorporated with the militia of England, that both should become the actual militia of the united kingdom; he would take the power of granting commissions from the lords lieutenant, and vest it in the king, like the regular army, and army of reserve.
The Marquis of Buckingham
supported
918
Lord Mudgrave
defended the bill from the attack of the noble baron, who had spoke last but two. With respect to the clause to which the noble baron had ascribed such a selfish character, he observed that it merely went to prevent insurances, which had ever been found most mischievous to the individuals who engaged in them. As to what the noble marquis had stated on the operation of the mutiny bill, it must be evident to the house that it was indispensable to preserve a due subordination: if the ranks of the Local Militia were filled from the lowest classes of society, such a check would be absolutely necessary; if they consisted in a great measure of individuals of a superior description, their conduct would be such as to render any exercise of the provisions of the bill superfluous.
The Lord Chancellor
adverted to what had been said on the subject of insurance, and requested noble lords to inquire what had taken place in their own families in these cases. They would find that frequently those of their servants who had not insured were ballotted, while those who had insured, escaped. From this circumstance it might fairly be inferred, that the insurers had some influence in the arrangement of the business.—The house then resolved itself into a committee. The different clauses of the bill underwent a discussion. Eventually they were all agreed to, and the house having resumed, the report was ordered to be received on Monday.
HOUSE OF COMMONS.
Friday, June 17, 1808.
[COPY-RIGHT BILL.]
Mr. Villiers
moved the second reading of the Copy-right bill.
Mr. Abercromby
thought that time should be allowed for the due consideration of a subject, in which the interests of the most meritorious, although, perhaps, not the most opulent, class of the community, were so seriously concerned.
Mr. Villiers
saw no reason for further delay, as sufficient time would yet be
919
[NAVAL ASYLUM.]
The order of the day being read for the house to resolve itself into a Committee of Supply, the Chancellor of the Exchequer moved, That the several estimates on the table be referred to the said committee; and, amongst others, that for an additional grant towards carrying on the building of the Naval Asylum at Greenwich.
Sir C. Pole
opposed the grant; for which, he said, the trustees ought not to have applied to parliament while they had in their hands a sum of 50,000
l
Mr. Rose
expressed his astonishment that the hon. baronet could expect that a sum of 50,000
l
920
The house then resolved into the Committee, and on the Chancellor of the Exchequer moving for the sum of 35,000
l
Sir C. Pole
said, that his motives for persevering were the same which had actuated him with respect to Greenwich Hospital; namely, to preserve the exclu-
921
Mr. Windham
vindicated the motives of the hon. admiral, without entering into the examination of his objections.—The Resolution was then put and carried.
[CONDUCT OF MARQUIS WELLESLEY—
Sir T. Turton
, in rising pursuant to his notice, felt it necessary to premise that, whatever might be his individual impression, it was not his intention, in consequence of his deference to the decision of the house, to submit any Resolution directly tending to criminate the character of the noble person, whose measures gave rise to the Resolutions he had to propose. But he considered it necessary, in vindication of the justice of this country, that that house should come to some Resolution respecting the nature and circumstances of the transactions in the Carnatic, and also declaratory of its intention to discountenance such proceedings hereafter. The hon. baronet therefore, reserving himself for that opportunity which would be afforded him by the indulgence of the house in reply, should then content himself with moving his two remaining Resolutions, as follows:
922
The first Resolution being read, the gallery was cleared, and a division took place: Ayes 11; Noes 34. Majority 23.—On re-entering the gallery, we found
Sir Samuel Romilly
on his legs, stating that although convinced of the culpability of marquis Wellesley, he did not impute to him corrupt motives or personal feelings. He had acted in a manner which he conceived to be for the advantage of the East India company and the country: much was he mistaken in so conceiving! But the question was not upon the motives by which the noble marquis was actuated, but whether what he did was not prompted by a false ambition for the aggrandizement of his country; and whether that ambition was not gratified by the vio-
923
924
925
926
927
Lord Castlereagh
observed, that from the manner in which this question was discussed, it might be supposed that it was only in its commencement; but he would ask gentlemen whether they could so soon forget that the house had already come to a grave decision upon it? The house had resolved, by a great, majority, that there was no ground whatever for the most material part of the charges relative to the Carnatic question, and negatived the motions containing such charges. The house was then in the singular situation of being called on to give redress in a transaction, of which
928
929
930
931
932
933
934
Mr. Sheridan
felt, that after the personal allusions so frequently made to him, he should not act respectfully towards the noble lord, if he continued silent on the present occasion. The noble lord concluded a speech, filled with the strangest and most monstrous doctrines he had ever heard, with a solemn appeal to the justice of the house, calling upon it not to establish so bad a moral as that of exposing the delinquency of public servants, for fear their conduct should be compared with the enormities of our enemies. It was with reluctance be entered on any of the enormities committed in India. In making such a declaration, the noble lord was not aware of the libel which he pronounced on an hon. friend of his, who was lately chief justice in India. Here Mr. Sheridan quoted a speech delivered at the time of Mr. Hastings's impeachment, by Mr. (now sir John) Anstruther, in which that gent. dwelt on the enormities practised in India, and insisted on the necessity of investigation and punishment. But now the house was to understand, from the speech of the noble lord, that no governor in India, let his crimes be ever so great, was to have his conduct at all inquired into. He maintained, that the best way to hold out to the world that we practised no enormities, was to punish those who committed any. The noble marquis, whose conduct was now the subject of discussion, had lately made an observation, that the attack upon Copenhagen, and the seizure of the Danish fleet, was an event at which Englishmen ought to rejoice, because it would grieve Buonaparte. It was unwise in the noble marquis to make such a declaration; because he believed it to be entirely the reverse of what was the fact. He sincerely believed, tha
935
936
937
938
Mr. Fuller
contended, that this was a most extraordinary discussion, and made on the opposite side a question of party rather than of principle.
Dr. Laurence
supported the Resolution. The proposition of the noble lord, that this was held to be a grave question by the house, might well be doubted, if they were to judge from the manner in which they had decided upon the evidence adduced in support of the charges against the noble marquis. Upon what principle it was that the house intended to act in its decision upon this subject, he was at some, loss to conjecture. Although it might be argued in favour of the noble marquis, that he was not actuated by motives of pecuniary aggrandizement, yet there were a thousand other bad passions which might actuate a minister, equally as mischievous and destructive to the interests of a nation, as those connected with the most sordid motives. Inordinate ambition must on all hands be admitted, in a moral point of view, to be the most pernicious of all the passions that actuated the human mind. That such was the motive of the noble marquis in his administration, must depend upon what degree of credit the house would attach to the evidence of the papers on the table. In his opinion, formed upon the consideration he had given to those documents, the accusations were unanswerable. Here the learned gent, combated the arguments used to justify the policy adopted by this country towards the native powers of India. Nothing was more unjust and unprincipled, nothing was
939
940
Mr. Windham
said, he was not disposed to enter into a discussion upon the merits of this question. He was restrained in doing so, not merely from the lateness of the hour, but really from a sort of despondence he entertained that any arguments which could be offered could have any weight with a majority of the house, who seemed, in opposition to reason and evidence, disposed to pass a vote rather of approbation than censure. He could not suffer the subject to pass by without making a few observations upon some of the arguments urged by the noble lord. The principle contended for by the noble lord in support of the policy of the East India company in India, reminded him of the last line of a song, written by Dr. Swift for a highwayman, 'Every man round may rob if he pleases.' In the annals of injustice, and in the annals of romance, what could be more preposterous than this principle? In alluding to the manner in which the evidence upon this subject was forced from Ally Rhezzi, it was impossible to come at the truth by such a mode of examination as that adopted on that occasion. The effect of torture was not to produce truth, but to produce only that which the person inflicting torture wished to be told. The construction put upon this evidence reminded him of a passage in the works of lord Shaftesbury, in reference to torture, that he would produce, out of the words, 'My son Tommy has got the piles,' a very good plot against the house of Hanover. He regretted extremely that the house had not the aid of his learned friend (the solicitor-general) on this side of the motion, who made so great a figure on the trial of Mr. Hastings; but, it would seem, the principle by which we were to be guided, was that the natives of India had no rights, that we had no duties, and that all was to depend upon the decision of our majorities. He firmly believed, that for the enormities committed by the British power in India, in all the enormities under all the successive variations of the French Revolution, and by no means recently under Buonaparte, no parallel was
941
Sir Thomas Turton
, in reply, answered the charges of mismanagement of the cause, that had been brought against him. It was said, that in opening the question, he had made use of violent language and personal invective. He referred to the annals of parliament, and defied any member to produce an instance where such a cause had ever been introduced with less of either. He had never said, as had been asserted, that no man ever returned from India either honourable or honest. It was only in illustrating the position he laid down, when expressing his surprise that Europeans, who acted with the strictest regard to justice in all their transactions in their own quarter of the globe, should act so differently in India, that he quoted the authority of Mr. Burke, who said, that Europeans were unbaptized in crossing the equinoctial. He had the utmost personal respect for the noble marquis; but what he had ever expressed in that house, and out of it, was a decided disapprobation of the measures he pursued during his administration in India. He could not agree with the noble lord, that such discussions as the present were calculated to produce ill effects; if they were so, however, it could only be from the decision they called forth. The hon. baronet then went at some length into the state of Indian affairs, and contended that there was no truth in what had been said, that the nabobs of the Carnatic had been raised
942
943
944
The gallery wad now cleared, and the house divided:
For the Resolution.
19
Against it.
97
Majority.
—78
Mr. Wallace
then rose, and said, that after what had passed on this and former discussions, it was unnecessary for him to introduce the Resolution which he was now-going to move, with any preface; he should content himself simply with moving the following Resolution: Resolved, "That it is the opinion of this house, that the marquis Wellesley and the earl Powis, in their conduct relative to the Carnatic, appear to have been influenced solely by motives of anxious zeal and solicitude for the permanent security, welfare, and prosperity of the British possessions in India."
Sir James Hall
said, that he only differed from the right hon. gent, who had made this motion in thinking that it did not go far enough; it was high time that parliament should do that justice to this illustrious character, which the meanest, the most degraded subject of our laws had a right to demand. After submitting the conduct of the noble marquis to the severest scrutiny, during a long course of years, and after deciding, by very great majorities, that he had done nothing wrong, the house was bound to grant him a deliverance, not only to free him from the present charge, but to protect him from ail future attempts on similar grounds. It would become the justice, the honour, the gentleman like feeling of the house to do a great deal more; not only to clear the character of the noble marquis from blame, but also to declare their high opinion of the services he had rendered his country,
945
Sir Thomas Turton
said he had a trifling-amendment to propose, which was to leave out the words after the word 'influenced,' and to insert the following words: 'By a desire to extend the British territories in India, in contempt of all treaties, and in violation of the national character.'
Mr. S. Lushington
supported the motion.
Mr. M. Fitzgerald
felt extreme uneasiness in giving a vote on so personal a subject, but with all his esteem for the private character of marquis Wellesley, and looking only to his politics as a public officer in India, he must give his vote against the Resolution.
The house then divided: for the Amendment 19; against it 98.—Majority 79.
Mr. Wallace then moved the original question of the Vote of Approbation. Upon which,
Mr. Howorth
addressed the Speaker thus: Sir; the house is called upon to determine on the noble lord's motives: there is no human tribunal competent to decide on them. The merits of the noble lord must be tried by his actions: if you try him by the fundamental Resolutions of this house, or by the laws of his country, shew me the resolution or the law which he has not violated. If you try him by the opinions of the Directors, there is scarcely an act of his government which they have not condemned, and given such reasons for their opinions, as were unanswerable, and therefore they were suppressed: if you try the noble lord by the effects of his government, let us look at the results: at home, irretrievable ruin; look to India, you find there a territorial revenue of fifteen millions, falling short of the expences of its establishments upwards of two millions annually, loaded with a debt of thirty-two millions, encreasing daily; the native powers of India disaffected; their minds alarmed with jealous apprehensions of our ambitious encroachments; disgusted with our humiliating control; disgusted with the disgraceful subor-
946
947
For the Vote of Application.
98
Against it.
19
Majority.
—79
List of Members who voted in the Minorities.
Astell, W.
Martin, H.
Creevey, T.
Moore, P.
Fitzgerald, M.
Ossulston, lord
Folkestone, lord
Romilly, sir S.
Grant, C.
Sheridan, R. B.
Hamilton, lord A.
Smith, W.
Horner, F.
Smith, G.
Howorth, H.
Turton, sir T.
Johnstone, G.
Western, C. C.
Lushington, S.
Whitbread, S.
Laurence, F.
Windham, W.
HOUSE OF COMMONS.
Monday, June 20, 1808.
[SCOTCH LOCAL MILITIA BILL.]
On the motion for the third reading of this bill,
Mr. Yorke
, pursuant to his notice, rose, he said, to deliver his sentiments, not merely upon the subject of this bill, but on that of the English Local Militia, which he had not an opportunity of attending in its progress, and upon the defensive state of the country. He began, by expressing his regret, that the people did not now seem so feelingly alive to the danger with which they were threatened, in consequence of the accumulated means and determined intentions of the enemy, as they were a very few years since, when that danger was much more distant, and when impediments, numerous and formidable, stood in the way, which had been since removed. The country seemed to repose in a fatal security, as if people imagined, that because there was not a formidable army now encamped at Boulogne, the danger was less imminent, or the purpose of the enemy less certain. But, for his own part, he was convinced, the more time the French emperor took in preparation, the more certain was our danger; because the greater would be his power, and the more
948
949
950
951
952
953
954
Lord Castlereagh
expressed great obligations to his right hon. friend for the manner in which he had stated his opinions; and declared his willingness to give every explanation that his duty would allow him, respecting the measures taken for the defence of the country. He agreed with his right hon. friend, that it would be a great fault in ministers to endeavour to lull the country into a false sense of security. He allowed that the danger was great, although perhaps not immediate. There was certainly danger enough stirring abroad, to make it necessary for the country to consider anxiously of the best means for its defence. If, on the one hand, he would not wish the country to entertain a false idea of its security, on the other hand, he thought it was but fair and right that it should know what had already been done by its government, to promote that security. In the first place, there was a number of regulars and militia, equal to what his right hon. friend had always considered as the greatest exertion that the country could be called upon to make. He had always said, that he had never found fault with the numerical force, or with the quality of those troops; and he had confessed, that it was as large an army as was wanting, or as this country could afford to keep up. As to the deficiency in point of fortification, it would be obvious to his right hon. friend, that no country could at once so completely change its system and character, as, from a naked country, to become a strongly-fortified one. When it was considered how very low the establishment of the Ordnance was at the beginning of the late war, it was astonishing that it should have started forth from almost nothing to its present most respectable stale. There was no service which required more time to bring to a state of perfection. Engineers were not to be made in a day, or by an act of parliament. As to the defence of the coast, there had been considerable exertions, in this respect. Dover, Chatham, and the whole course of the Medway, were placed in a very strong state of defence. He believed the whole line of coast from Portsmouth to the Thames might be considered in a very perfect state of defence, and much more strongly fortified than any part of the enemy's coast. The enemy were, indeed,
955
Mr. Windham
considered, that the danger which this country was exposed to was greater than all the plans of the noble lord, even with the addition of the proposed system of fortification, would be able to meet. The question which remained between him and the noble lord, was, whether one or 200,000 men, enrolled under the Training act, and liable to be called upon in case of actual invasion, to recruit the army, was, or was not, a more effectual means for the defence of the country than the establishment of this Local Militia? He was sorry to find that ministers had not yet made up their minds upon the subject of fortifications for the internal defence of the country; but as to those works, which were projected by lord Chatham, the noble lord did justice to the late administration, in saying that they were bound in duty not to adopt such a system without the fullest consideration. There was scarcely any subject on which there was a greater contrariety of opinion; and the opinion of the general officers who were to command in the field, was of at least as much consequence as that of the engineers who were to execute the works. He complained of the noble lord, however, for weakening the military system that was handed down to him by the late administration. He had found the system of recruiting so productive and exuberant, that he doubtless
956
Mr. Herbert
, of Kerry, recommended to the consideration of the noble lord the propriety of an interchange of the militias of the two countries. Such a measure would come with peculiar propriety from that noble lord, to whom Ireland had already contracted such a debt of gratitude, by his effecting the grand object of an union. Whatever might be the ultimate determination of government on the grand subject of internal defence, by fortification, it would be well worth the attention of the noble lord to consider of the most effectual means of securing the country in the time of danger. Much had been done, and yet much remained, particularly in Ireland. He had however little doubt, that under the superintendance of the noble lord nothing would be left unattempted which could prove serviceable to the public security, or honourable to the exertions of himself and his colleagues.—The bill was then read a third time, and passed.
Mr. Windham
gave notice of a motion for the next session, probably when the Mutiny act should be before the house, the object of which would be the protection of soldiers who had entered for limited service, in consequence of the regulations of the year before last. His proposition would be to prevent such soldiers from consenting to extend their service for life, until the expiration of the engagement which they had already contracted.
[MR. PALMER'S CLAIM.]
The Chancellor of the Exchequer gave notice that he would on Thursday next submit a motion to the house, the subject of which would be to found a separate bill upon the Resolution respecting Mr. Palmer's Claim, instead of incorporating it in the Appropriation act.
[CURATES RESIDENCE BILL.]
On the motion of the Chancellor of the Exchequer for the third reading of this bill,
Mr. Barham
repeated the arguments so often urged by the opposers of this measure. He considered it extremely dangerous to the interests of the Church, by granting such considerable power to the bishops, which would not fail to produce contention amongst the whole body of the clergy. The bill, moreover, was altogether inefficient to its purpose, as it was at best but a partial remedy to the great evil of non-residence, and finally he objected
957
Mr. Hawkins Browne
supported the bill, and was happy to find that the economy and guardianship of the Church had fallen into such good hands. He lamented the spirit of opposition which had so uniformly displayed itself on the other side of the house, to a measure calculated to secure the dearest interests of the Church and the comfort of all descriptions of the clergy.
Lord Milton
dreaded the terrific influence the present bill must necessarily give the superiors of the Church over their inferiors, and the operation of this influence, through the medium of the minor clergy, upon the public mind at large.
Mr. Tierney
thought the bill could be brought into operation only by the negligence of the rector; a supposition on which he did not think it dignified to act.
Mr. Windham
followed on the same side: he said the bill was not content to let the Church remain 'militant here on earth,' but it wished to render it a Church 'litigant' also.
Mr. Stephens
supported the bill as tending to cause the parochial duties to be performed by persons whose indigence would not disgrace their profession.
Dr. Laurence
objected to the bill, that it tended to destroy the principle upon which not only ecclesiastical but property in general was founded. He was of opinion, there was no necessity for legislative interference on this subject, and that it would be better to leave the appointment of curates salaries to the diocesan. He considered it to be a great defect in the bill, that it did not apply to lay impropriators.
Mr. Whitbread
stated, as a matter of complaint, that the bill was intended to extend to Ireland. This was contrary to the understanding which prevailed when it was referred to a committee. It was with him a very great objection to the bill that it gave a discretionary power to the bishop. The instances were so few in which the principle of the bill could be made to apply, that they were not worth legislative interference.—The house then divided on the question, that the bill be now read a third time: Ayes 73; Noes 20; Majority, 53.—While strangers were excluded, lord Porchester tendered a Clause, by way of rider, upon which another di-
958
HOUSE OF LORDS.
Tuesday, June 21, 1808.
[CURATES RESIDENCE BILL.]
On the first reading of the Curates Residence bill,
The Earl of Lauderdale
rose and said, that he was determined to oppose the bill in all its stages. It was a bill which went to give the bishops an increase of discretionary power, which power they were known already to have abused; so that the present bill would only tend to enable them to extend that abuse in proportion as their power was extended.
The Bishop of London
[LOCAL MILITIA BILL.]
On the motion that this bill do pass,
The Earl of Selkirk
renewed his objection to the measure. He wished it to be confined to the age between 18 and 25; and thus it would have the effect of training the whole body of the youth of Great Britain to the use of arms. He was anxious the bill should be freed from the inconvenience and difficulties under which other measures of this nature were known by experience to be liable. Above all, he wished to abolish the ballot; with that view he should move an amendment, to omit in the preamble of the bill the words "and balloted."
Earl Stanhope
supported the motion. He was desirous the bill should rest on the principle of the militia act, not on the principle of the modern acts. He wished it to approach in its nature to the old
posse comitatus
959
Lord Hawkesbury
observed, that the principle of the old
posse comitatus
Lord Sidmouth
distinguished between the plan of his noble friend (lord Selkirk) and that recommended by the noble earl. His noble friend was for so modelling the measure as to make it operate in training the whole body of the youth of the country to the use of arms. In that plan he willingly acquiesced; but if the amendment of his noble friend should be rejected, he should give his support to the present bill, as approximating next to that which he thought would best accomplish the object which government had in view, and which the nature of the times made indispensably necessary.
After a few observations from lord Radnor, lord Selkirk's amendment was negatived without a division.
The Earl of Radnor
proposed an amendment to secure persons balloted for in the training act, from serving in the local militia. This amendment, after a few words from lord Hawkesbury and lord Stanhope, was also negatived; after which the bill was passed.
[MR. PALMER'S CLAIM.]
The Order of the day being moved for the second reading of Mr. Palmer's per-centage bill,
Lord Eliot
rose, pursuant to notice, to call the attention of their lordships to the bill now before them. He had bestowed much attention on the nature of Mr. Palmer's Claims, and on the evidence which had been adduced for and against them After due consideration of these points, it was his opinion that the bill ought to be rejected, and he should conclude with a motion to that, effect. The noble lord then went into an examination of Mr. Palmer's contract with Mr. Pitt, which he contended had in view future as well as past services. He also asserted,
960
The Earl of Moira.
—My lords; Nothing excited by any speech to which I may on former occasions have listened in this house, comes near to the degree of surprize with which I have heard the motion now offered for your adoption. It is not that my mind was unprepared for some extraordinary procedure. In a manner wholly unprecedented in parliamentary transactions, your attention was called to this subject before you could, consistently with the established principle of your own order, or without infringing your accustomed respect towards the other house, avow any knowledge that the matter was in agitation. Nay, a body of testimony received by a Committee of the Commons was requested from that house at a time when it had not come to any conclusion on the question; and a Committee of your lordships was named to open proceedings on that evidence. This seemed not merely strange; but, could one have permitted oneself to give way to the conception, might have been thought to indicate a fixed resolution of crushing the Claim of Mr. Palmer, howsoever it should be circumstanced. One resisted the suspicion, because it must have appeared to every body that this case, though not in form a judicial question, was in essence strictly so; and the nice regard of your lordships to equity forbad the indulgence of a doubt. What follows? Your Committee give to you the evidence just as
961
l
l
962
l
963
964
bonâ fide
965
966
967
968
Lord Harrowby
felt himself perfectly willing to allow, that a positive bargain had been made in the first instance between government and Mr. Palmer, and he thought that no imputation of unfairness ought to rest upon ministers for not calling upon lord Camden and the bishop of Lincoln for their evidence, since all they could possibly relate would only confirm what there was no intention of disputing, namely, the actual existence of the contract; but though he fully admitted that this bargain had been originally concluded, still he must express himself decidedly of opinion, that the subsequent conduct of Mr. Palmer in office, and his acceptance of 3,000
l
969
l
Lord Erskine.
—I shall not attempt to say that all the minutiæ of the Evidence of this elaborate case are now fresh in my memory, but, my lords, here is the Opinion given by me in my professional capacity some years since; and thus far I will say, that this Opinion was formed and delivered upon the most strict investigation, and the most serious and patient consideration; and I will pledge my honour as a peer, and my character as a lawyer, on the soundness of its basis and the correctness of its doctrine. And I am the more convinced of its justice when I see subscribed to it the names of such great men, that I hardly dare name myself in comparison. My lords, here is the opinion of my lord Mansfield, one of the judges. And I most solemnly declare that I wish Mr. Palmer might stand or fall by the opinion of the other eleven. I am confident that very few of the noble lords, who oppose this bill, know any of the facts relating to its merits, and I almost fear that they have been prejudiced and are determined to act according to the dictates of that prejudice: I do, therefore, conjure the noble lords not to treat a
970
l
l
l
971
Lord Walsingham
observed, that he held the situation of Post-master General at the time of Mr. Palmer's suspension from the Post-office, and that the cause of such suspension was the contumacy and insubordination of Mr. Palmer. He was of opinion, that Mr. Palmer's conduct while in office was extremely reprehensible, and that the pension he at present enjoyed was fully adequate to the services he had rendered.
The Lord Chancellor
entered into a detail of the circumstances of Mr. Palmer's appointment and dismissal from office, and contended, that while he continued to be the servant of the public it could not be contended but that he was entitled to remuneration for his services; but having been dismissed from that service, in his judgment, he was no longer entitled to claim that remuneration under the agreement in question. With respect to the Opinions of the chief justice of the Common Pleas, and of the attorney general and others, which had been handed about, and stated as favourable to Mr. Palmer's claim, he considered that these were no-
972
Lord Stanhope
having called the attention of the house to the real question before them, said, he should agree to the adjournment of the debate, because he wanted more information upon it. The noble and learned lord on the woolsack had attacked the opinions of the lord chief justice of the Common Pleas, the attorney general, and other learned persons of great weight in this country, with more virulence and asperity than even he himself had ever done when he was accused of libelling the Judges, and charged with calling one a great blockhead. He was, however, as happy in being forced to defend the Judges as he should be in defending the Bishops on some future occasion. His decided wish was to submit a question or two to the Judges for their opinion, before the matter should be finally decided. Without, therefore, giving any opinion of his own at present upon this case, he could not see how justice could be done to the individual on the one hand, or to the public on the other, without first having the Opinion of the Judges upon the subject; for these reasons he supported the motion of adjournment.
The Earl of Radnor
observed, that as the merits of Mr. Palmer's plan had been so clearly pointed out by noble lords who spoke early in the debate, he would not detain the house by insisting further upon that which appeared to be universally admitted. With respect to the bill under discussion, he had to observe, that the sum claimed by Mr. Palmer did not amount to a fortieth part of those emoluments which had accrued to the country confessedly through the medium of his genius and ability: and, really, in the face of a fact like this, he could not comprehend how the Claim of Mr. Palmer could be resisted upon the ground of his unworthiness. Much had been said respecting the misconduct of Mr. Palmer, but he would ask, to what did it amount? Did it in the smallest degree throw any impeachment upon his honesty? So far from it, that the noble lords who suspended him, declare in their evidence before us, that they never had the slightest reason to doubt his personal integrity. If the noble lords conceived that Mr. Palmer had acted with contumacy
973
Lord Redesdale
opposed the motion, and after going over many of the circumstances of the case to prove that Mr. Palmer had no just ground of claim, declared that it concerned the dignity of the house that the bill should be got rid of as speedily as possible.
The house then divided on lord Moira's amendment.—Contents, 10; Non-Contents, 34.—The original question, That the bill be rejected, was then put, and agreed to without a division.
HOUSE OF COMMONS.
Tuesday, June 21, 1808.
[WEST INDIES.]
Mr. Eden
enquired, whether it was the intention of his majesty's ministers to found, on the report of the committee on the state of the West India trade, any measure except that of the distillation from sugar that had been already before the house.
The Chancellor of the Exchequer
replied, that the Distillation bill was not the only measure calculated to relieve the West India merchant. The lowering of the duties on coffee, and the increase of the duties an brandy, would have a similar tendency. It was not in the contemplation of his majesty's ministers to propose any other measure on the subject.
Mr. Barham
then gave notice of a motion on Thursday, respecting the state of he West India commerce.
[SCOTCH JUDICATURE BILL.]
The house vent into the further consideration of the Scotch judicature bill. The bill being re-
974
[ASSESSED TAXES BILL.]
The house went into a committee on the Assessed Taxes bill. Several new clauses were proposed, and several amendments of omission and insertion made. Mr. Wardell, as a check upon vexatious surcharges, moved that the inspector should state the grounds of the surcharge in the certificate, so as to enable the party to come prepared to meet it. Various cases of vexatious surcharge were stated from both sides of the house, the necessity of some specification was allowed, and an amendment calculated to answer the purpose, was agreed to. The hon. gent. also suggested that persons surcharged should be required to answer on oath only
975
l
l
l
The other clauses were then agreed to and some new clauses were added.
HOUSE OF LORDS.
Wednesday, June 22, 1808.
[CURATES' RESIDENCE BILL.]
The Duke of Rutland presented a petition from certain of the clergy of Leicestershire, against the provisions of the Curates' bill; and lord Brownlow presented a similar petition on the part of the clergy of Lincolnshire. —Ordered to lie upon the table.
The Earl of Lauderdale
renewed his objections against the bill. It was a bill of the utmost consequence, both as it affected property and the established church; and above all, as it went to extend the power of the bishops, who already possessed too much. It was, moreover, brought into the house at so late a period of the session, that it was impossible to give it a full and minute consideration. It was yet only read the first time.
Lord Holland
perfectly coincided in the observations of his noble friend.
976
The Archbishop of Canterbury
observed that the prints of the bill were not yet on the table; but when they were, and he hoped it would be to-morrow, he should then, for then only would it be regular, move that the bill be read a second time on Friday.
The Earl of Lauderdale
complained of the shortness of the notice, and again entered more fully into the mischievous consequences of the increased power which it would confer on the bishops; only one of whom, he believed, would be found to have the spirit to oppose it.
Lord Harrowby
called the noble lord to order, as allowing himself to degenerate into personalities.
The Earl of Lauderdale
denied that he was out of order; and said, that he should take the next opportunity afforded him of proving that he meant nothing personal to the most reverend prelate who had spoken on the present occasion.
[BANK OF IRELAND.]
The order of the day was then moved, for the house to resolve itself into a committee on the bill for renewing the charter of the Bank of Ireland, and lord Grenville, who was to have made a motion on the subject, not being present, a conversation ensued between the lord chancellor, lords Holland and Stanhope, respecting the propriety of discharging, or passing over, the order of the day, when
Lord Grenville
entered the house, and soon after rose to make his motion; but first presented a petition from the catholic merchants and bankers of the city of Dublin, praying that they might not be excluded from acting as directors and governors of the Irish Bank; which petition was ordered to lie on the table. The noble lord then began by apologising for the delay which he had unintentionally been the cause of, and proceeded to open the proposition which he should have the honour of submitting to their lordships. He begged leave, in the first place, to observe that the house was going to legislate on a matter respecting which they were wholly in the dark; the charter which they were going to renew, not so much as being before them, nor even the terms upon which government were prepared to grant the favour of that renewal. The charter was to be renewed for above twenty years, and what was the return to be made to government for the concession? The band of Ireland was to land one million and a half to government, at a
977
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978
Lord Hawkesbury
opposed the motion, on the grounds he had already so often insisted upon. It had already abundantly appeared to be the sense of government, and of parliament, to make no further concessions to the catholics of Ireland at the present moment. Indeed, he would go so far as again to repeat, that he should make his stand on the law as it stood at the union. What had been conceded up to that period he was ready to abide by; any thing further he would oppose. No man could deny that admission to the office of bank directors must confer influence, which influence would generate political power. If, therefore, parliament, was wise in opposing claims of higher and more extended power, they would act with equal wisdom in opposing the present claim, which, if granted, must have the tendency it was the desire and determination of parliament to counteract; for these reasons, he must oppose the motion.
Lord Erskine
contended that their lordships, by refusing the proposition of his noble friend, would violate the spirit and meaning of the act of 1793. By that statute it was particularly provided, that all Catholics might be elected to the offices of every lay corporation, any statute or bye law to the contrary notwithstanding, excepting the University of Dublin. His lordship argued, that at the time the statute was framed, the legislature must have had in their contemplation charters also; but by their omitting to mention that word, in his opinion (he might be wrong), Catholics could not be admitted under the old charter to the different offices of the Bank of Ireland. But the very reason, be urged, was, that the legislature had not extended this right to Catholic proprietors of the Bank, under the old charter, because the charter having already been granted before that act of parliament, it was not consistent for the legislature, nor agreeable to Magna Charta, that they should alter or destroy a charter which they had already granted. If any man would seriously attend to the preamble of this act of 1793, he would find that it was
979
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Lord Harrowby
began by saying, that although he could not presume to follow the noble and learned lord through his legal opinions, he could not refrain from remarking, what appeared to an unlearned man something like a contradiction. He had stated that the bank direction was not opened, nor meant to be opened, to the catholics by the act of 1793, and had nevertheless agreed that refusing to open it to them now would be a breach of public faith. How did he explain this? Why, he asserted that the only possible ground upon which the parliament of 1793 could have omitted to open it, must have been the persuasion that it could not have been opened without a violation of the Bank charter then subsisting. Upon this point, with all due respect for the legal opinion of the noble and learned lord, he was inclined rather to bow to the legal opinion of the noble lord on the woolsack, who asserted that parliament might at that time, during the old charter, and might at any future time, during the prolongation of the charter, remove the restriction upon the admission of catholics, without any violation of the contract; and he was confirmed in this opinion by recollecting what parliament had frequently done with respect to other charters, and particularly to the charter of the East India company. It being, then, far from clear that this opinion was the only ground upon which parliament had not given this privilege in 1793, it remained at least as probable that it was not then given, because parliament did not then intend to give it; and there was an end at once to the supposition of any breach of faith in refusing it now.—The noble lord then stated, that in the shape in which the question was brought before
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The Earl of Lauderdale
spoke in favour of the motion proposed by his noble friend. He considered several of the arguments adduced by noble lords on the opposite side, as strong reasons to induce him to approve of this clause being inserted in the present bill; particularly what had been stated concerning the great share which the Catholics possessed of the commercial wealth of Ireland.
Earl Stanhope
observed, that by a declaration which he held in his hand, it appeared that the Catholics completely renounced all power whatever residing in foreign ecclesiastical persons. After several other observations, he concluded by giving his assent to the motion.
The Earl of Westmoreland
opposed the motion on the general grounds that no further concessions whatever should, under the present circumstances, be granted to the catholics. He was surprised to see such motions so often brought forward by those who, when they were themselves in power, employed every exertion to deprecate and prevent such discussions. They were the real authors of any ill consequences which might arise from a refusal to accede to such claims.
Lord Redesdale
could not but repeat his former objections to such claims. The more we were ready to grant them, the more encouragement we gave the catholics to come forward with fresh claims, and perhaps to insist upon them. The writers among the catholics of Ireland gave repeated proofs of what were their real intentions. In a book published by one of them, a Mr. M'Kenna, (with whom he believed a noble marquis opposite was on terms of intimacy), it was proposed, that provision should be made for the catholic clergy out of the property of the established church. Was there, then, no danger to be feared for our establishments?
The Marquis of Buckingham
declared, that he had not even heard of the publication alluded to. He had been for some time past a silent observer of what passed on the subject of the catholics, but being thus alluded to, he felt it his duty to state, that he differed in every respect from the noble and learned lord as to the concessions which should be made to the catholics of Ireland. Their situation was one which he had over and over discussed and well considered, and, on the whole, he was satisfied in his own mind, that they
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Lord Grenville,
in reply, observed, that no arguments had been adduced to do away the powerful facts which had been stated. When the question of Catholic Emancipation was brought forward in the Irish parliament, the Catholics were told it could be better discussed in an imperial parliament. This was held out to them to gain their consent to the union, and they were told now that they must not expect to be placed in a better situation than at the union. Was this the way to conciliate the people of Ireland? He was astonished how the noble secretary of state could reconcile such arguments as he had made use of to himself; or how it could be expected that the people of Ireland could be reconciled to them. He felt confident that the majority of the noble lords were in favour of allowing the Catholic claims, but they kept back their real sentiments. He entreated of them to come forward, and to dismantle themselves of their disguise, as the period was not far off when they would be obliged to do it. It would be like the concessions asked by America before the contest; and would any noble lord say, that at the conclusion of that contest we should not have been happy to have acquiesced in all they had asked from us in the beginning? This case was recent in the mind of every person, and he wished to warn the house against the same error, and not to withhold their favours until it became too late, as was the case with America. They should not judge of the people of Ireland by the acts of a few, but by the conduct of the mass of the people. The arguments of the noble lord (Harrowby) might answer for the year 1778, but would not answer for the present day. All that was proposed to give the Catholics of Ireland was bread by the sweat of
988
The question was then loudly called for, and the house divided:
Contents
36
Proxies
25
63
Non-contents
45
Proxies
56
101
Majority against the motion
38
HOUSE OF COMMONS.
Wednesday, June 22, 1808.
[COPY-RIGHT BILL.]
Mr. Villiers
Mr. C. Wynne
should not object to the motion, if the bill was to go into a committee, on an understanding that it was merely for filling up the blanks, in order to afford time to the public and the parties concerned to judge how far it might be desirable for their interest, that the bill should pass. He thought that the time ought to be extended within which the copyright should be preserved to the author. This time, he was of opinion, ought to be 28 years, as also, that no author should be allowed to dispose of his copyright for more than 14 years. As to the
989
Mr. Villiers
replied, that the principle of the bill was not new, as the universities were already entitled to copies of all works that shall be published; and it could not be denied, that this circumstance was favourable to learning, as thereby students in the universities would be enabled to consult books which otherwise they would be unable to purchase. Copyrights were at present protected to the extent of 28 years in two different periods. But the consequence was, that in works requiring time to mature them, the author could not derive from them one half of the advantages that were enjoyed by the authors of the lightest productions. The object of the bill was to remedy this evil.
Mr. Abercromby
concurred with his hon. and learned friend, in requesting the hon. mover not to press the bill at this late period of the session, because many of the booksellers of Scotland, and some of those of Ireland, whose interests would be materially affected by the bill, had not any knowledge of its provisions.
The Attorney General
proposed that the bill be recommitted, and an instruction be given to the committee to divide the bill, in order that the part which provides for the protection of the authors might be passed now, and the other might lie over for consideration, though he did not think there was much weight in the objections made to that part which required that a copy of every new publication should be supplied to all libraries open to the public. This would not be a hardship to authors, because this was what was required of them by the 8th of Anne, in return for the advantage they derived from the copy-
990
Mr. C. Wynne,
after stating his several objections to the bill, moved that the further consideration of the report be postponed until this day three months.
Lord H. Petty
agreed in the proposition of the attorney general. He thought that the present criterion of the duration of the author's copyright was a very fallacious one; namely, the life of the author; and required much consideration. But as to the other part of the bill, which required the delivery of a copy of each work to be published, to every library open to the public, it was only to carry into effect the spirit of the act of the 8th of Anne. He therefore thought that the bill ought to be separated, in order that this latter part should be passed, whilst the more delicate and difficult part should be suffered to lie over till next session.
Sir S. Romilly
regretted that it was now proposed to pass that part of the measure which was the most objectionable, or rather the only objectionable part of it. The system of copyright established in this country, made the public, instead of any individual, the patrons of literature; and this, with a view to independence of sentiment, and just thinking, was an inestimable advantage. It was certainly highly expedient that the libraries of the different Universities should be properly provided with books; but he was astonished that it should be proposed to lay a tax upon authors for that purpose, which the public at large did not bear. There were many works which cost 50 guineas a copy; and was it not monstrous that the authors and publishers should be taxed to the amount of 550 guineas, by being obliged to give away eleven copies? The fact was, that such works, from the expence attending them, were in no danger of being pirated, no person being able to enter into competition with them, or to deprive them of the benefit of copyright therein. It was for the interest of the public that the Universities should be supplied with books; but let that be done at the expence of the public, and not of individual authors. There were other works, however, of great sale and merit, though cheap, to which the contribution of eleven copies would be easy; but he should certainly propose, that expensive works, where the publisher was not anxious about their copyright, should be exempted from this contribution.
991
The Attorney General
said, he had no objection to a clause making such a distinction.
The Solicitor General
saw no reason for delaying any part of the bill, and contended that the bill was only a confirmation of the act of queen Anne, which had not been acted upon of late years, in consequence of a doubt being suggested in point of form, as to the efficacy of the act itself.
Mr. Stephens
observed that the bill, as it first stood, embracing both objects, was unobjectionable. But he contended that, if it were to be divided, it would be objectionable in point of precedent, because it would separate the provision for the authors and for the universities, which had been jointly secured in former acts. He was of opinion, however, that the author had, at common law, an unlimited copyright, which was restrained by the 8th of Anne. But it appeared to him that the notoriety which would arise to works from copies being given to the universities, would be an equivalent to the author for the copies he should deliver to such institutions.
Mr. Villiers
stated that it was with extreme reluctance he consented to the separation of the bill; but, as he could not put his opinion in opposition to the authority upon which that proposition was made, he felt inclined to accede to it; at the same time, he gave notice that, at an early period of next session, he should move for leave to bring in a bill similar to that which was now to be divided.—The bill was then ordered to be recommitted; and an instruction having been voted to the committee for dividing the bill, the house resolved into the committee.
Mr. W. Smith
stated his objections to the further progress of this bill at this late period of the session; and therefore moved that the chairman do now leave the chair.
992
Mr. Morris
contended, that the measure would not at all affect the booksellers or publishers, because it was to apply only to future publications, and those persons would in their bargains with the authors indemnify themselves for any number of copies which they might be required under this act to deliver into the universities and other public institutions.
Mr. Abercromby
contended that the public curiosity would be more earnest by abridging the period of copyright; he proposed to limit it to 20 years, instead of 28.
Mr. Morris
insisted, that the term of 28 years was not too much for a just copyright. He cited the cases of Dr. Adam Smith's works, and Dr. Johnson's dictionary, to prove that most valuable works were not properly estimated till they had gone through many editions, and had been long before the public. He therefore thought an extended term of copyright was desirable.
Sir A. Piggott
thought the present period of the session too late for the agitation of this subject. He thought eleven copies too many to require, and that when no complaint was made on the part of authors, of booksellers, or the public, it was unnecessary to alter the law as it stood.
Mr. Leycester
defended the proposition of the attorney general, which was agreed to.
Mr. C. Wynne
proposed to render the supply of copies to the Universities obligatory only when called for. On explanation this difficulty was removed.
993
[OYSTER FISHERY BILL.]
Mr. Wharton brought up the report of the Oyster Fishery Bill.
Sir S. Romilly
opposed the bill. In the committee he had intended to propose, in lieu of the punishment of transportation for seven years, imprisonment for two; but the bill had passed through the committee, very unexpectedly to him, at an early hour this afternoon. His chief objection to the bill was, that the house was not sufficiently acquainted with the nature of the property which it was intended to secure. He deprecated the enactment of a new penal law, without having previously ascertained the precise extent of the crime, or without a complete conviction that it might not be committed in ignorance rather than with a malevolent design. He dwelt with considerable force on the dreadful depravation of mind to which the persons transported to Botany Bay were subjected, and contended, that it was of such a nature as to call loudly for the interference of the legislature.
The Solicitor General
defended the bill, as indispensable to the protection of private property. It was not the enactment of a new penal statute. It was already, in his opinion, a felony at common law; but from an inadvertency in wording the act, the protection of this property was not so complete as it was desirable it should be. All that the bill before the house professed, was to restore the common law. With respect to the punishment, it was not greater than what was annexed to similar offences,
Mr. Magens
explained the nature of the oyster-beds, and enlarged upon the various depredations that had taken place upon them. The people to whom they belonged were in general poor, and lived, as it were, from hand to mouth. It was, therefore, the mere necessary that their property should be protected, in the same manner as any other property equally exposed, such as bleach-fields, orchards, &c. This was not a matter of small amount; and some means ought to be taken to enable them to gain their livelihood by carrying on their trade. He approved of this bill, as affording that necessary protection.
Sir W. Curtis
observed, that undoubtedly the oyster-beds were a species of property &s deserving of protection as any other. His only objection to the bill was that it
994
Mr. Sturges Bourne
said, he did not apprehend that this bill went to make any alteration in the description of the property or place where it lay, other than the former bill contained. It was evidently a property well worthy of protection. Doubts having existed whether the law at present deemed the offence of stealing these oysters a felony or a misdemeanor, it was therefore necessary to explain the law. Such was the object of this bill. It had always been deemed necessary to punish those offences that could be committed with great facility, with more severity than those of a contrary description. For instance, the crime of sheep-stealing was punished, upon all occasions, with death. Upon the same principle, oyster-beds well deserved protection, as being private property collected together with great labour.
Sir W. Elford
supported the measure, as he thought it was necessary to protect that species of property, by the severity of the punishment.
Mr. C. Wynne
said, that formerly a bill had been brought in for making the stealing of any species of fruit a felony; and although it was acknowledged by all, that that property was much exposed and required protection, yet the article was so tempting and the offence so easy of commission that boys might be induced to commit it, that the bill was rejected. He thought it highly necessary that the oyster-beds should be marked out so as to prevent persons totally ignorant of the law from committing the offence of taking oysters from thence. A captain of a ship, newly arrived from a distant climate, might innocently enough send out his boat, with men, to take oysters wherever they could get them. Was it just or reasonable that such persons should be deemed guilty of felony? He should wish to see some provision introduced, so as particularly to mark cut these beds to the public.
Mr. Villiers
thought it extremely important to declare what the law was upon the subject. The punishment proposed in
995
Sir A. Piggott
thought, that if the law already declared this offence to be felony by the common law, there was no occasion for passing this bill. It was certainly important that the beds should be particularly marked out.
Mr. Spencer Stanhope
said, if he consented to this bill, he was consenting to innocent persons being punished as felons. A captain might return from the East Indies, and might choose to regale himself with oysters, and he could see no circumstance that could induce a jury to acquit any person who had committed the offence, even in the slightest degree. He had, however, no doubt there should be a law making this offence more penal than it at present seemed to be, although he certainly thought the oyster-beds that were private property ought to be particularly marked out.
Mr. Western
stated, that the object of the bill was merely to declare the law, upon which doubts had on various occasions arisen.
Mr. Burton
could see no objection against restoring the existing law, and explaining what it really was. The only difficulty was, to ascertain whether or not it was private property? He thought there ought to be words in the act descriptive of the property, and that it ought to be marked out with proper buoys.—The report was then agreed to, and the bill ordered to be read a third time to-morrow.
HOUSE OF LORDS.
Thursday, June 23, 1808.
[STAMP DUTIES BILL.]
On the motion that the Stamp Duties bill be read a first time,
Lord Holland
rose to observe upon the extreme importance and complexity of the measure. It was one which, in his opinion, required and deserved a minute and mature consideration. It was therefore proper the house should have it before them in a legible and accessible form. His lordship then moved that the bill be printed.
Lord Hawkesbury
observed, that it was not the practice to print bills of this sort, nor did he see of what utility it could prove to have the bill printed. He must therefore resist the motion of his noble friend.
996
[BANK OF IRELAND CHARTER BILL.]
The Earl of Lauderdale
rose pursuant to notice, to move that the opinion of the Judges be taken upon certain clauses of this bill, which regulated the amount of the notes which the Bank was empowered to issue, and the distribution of any surplus that might arise to the subscribers. According to the accounts on the table, it appeared that the bank had issued notes to a larger amount than that to which by the bill it was limited; and that the subscribers had subscribed only the same sums as before. He was at a loss to see where was the necessity of providing for the distribution of the overplus. This latter clause surely contained as gross a bull as ever was imported from Ireland.
The Earl of Limerick
rose to order. He could not sit silent and hear reflections thrown out upon the country to which he belonged, nor would he tolerate them from any noble lord.
The Earl of Lauderdale
meant no disrespect to Ireland; he had often been rallied himself on the accent he had brought from his country, without being hurt at it. The best authorities considered bulls as the offspring of a quick imagination. But surely an act of parliament was not the most suitable place for exhibiting flights of fancy.
The Lord Chancellor
saw no necessity for consulting the Judges on the clauses referred to by the noble baron. As a lawyer, he might take upon him to say that the Judges would give no opinion as to the illegality or obscurity of the clauses; but he was not now delivering the opinion of a lawyer.—After a few words from lord Lauderdale, the motion was negatived without a division.—The bill was then read a third time and passed.
[PROTEST AGAINST THE BANK OF IRELAND
On the passing of this Bill, the following Protest was entered on the Lords Journals: viz. "1st, Because this act sanctions the prolongation of the Charter of the Bank of Ireland from the year 1816, at which time that corporation
997
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998
l.
LAUDERDALE,
DUNDAS,
(For the last reason) V. HOLLAND."
[SUGAR DISTILLATION.]
The order of the day being moved for the second reading of the bill prohibiting for a time to be limited the Distillation from corn,
Earl Bathurst
rose and observed, that it was not necessary for him to detain their lordships by any minute explanation of
999
The Earl of Selkirk
thought the measure pregnant with the most injurious consequences to the agricultural interests of! the country. He admitted that what was used in the distilleries, or in other purposes different from that of immediate sustenance in a year of plenty, might come in aid of the supply in a year of scarcity, and that it might, in consequence of scarcity, become absolutely necessary to stop the distilleries; but, generally speaking, it was much better to leave agriculture and distillation to themselves; if the price of grain became so high in consequence of scarcity that the distillation of it would not yield a profit, the distilleries must of course stop. The high price of grain would also be an encouragement to further cultivation; the produce of which being brought to market would lower the price. The high price of grain might have the effect of inducing the conversion of a portion of grass land into tillage, which would immediately tend to lower the price of grain; and if only a thirtieth part of the grass land in the united kingdom was converted into tillage, he believed there would be no necessity for the importation of grain. He objected to the bill, as tending to lessen the cultivation of grain, and to render the operations of agriculture unsteady and fluctuating. The distilleries, besides, had already stopped,
1000
Lord Holland
had heard nothing to induce him to withdraw that support which he intended to give to the present bill. He could see no reason why, it the quantity of grain consumed in a year of plenty, for purposes different from necessary sustenance, was to come in aid of a year of scarcity, it might not also come in aid of a deficiency of importation. The great object in this case was the relief of the West India interest, now in a state of great distress, and to prevent that ruin in which they must be involved if something was not done to take off a part of that pressure which weighed so heavily upon them. If this could be done, as he contended it could, not only without injuring the interests of agriculture, but with ultimate benefit to those interests, as the West India Islands must, in the present state of affairs, be in a great measure dependant upon this country for provisions; and if some relief was afforded in the present instance, those connected with them would be the better enabled to purchase supplies, he saw no reason why the present measure should not be carried into effect, merely because it was contrary to a general principle.
Viscount Sidmouth
thought it impolitic to interfere with the agriculture of the country. Let every thing be left to price, and that would be found a much better regulator of the amount of the supply in the market, than any legislative measure. He could not agree with the policy of sacrificing one interest for the benefit of another; it was much better, in his opinion, that competition should be left to its effect. With respect to the West India interest, he thought it would be much better to resort to other measures of a more permanent nature for their relief.
The Earl of Albemarle
had not heard any necessity shewn for the present measure; nor could he agree, that the West India interest ought to be relieved at the expence of the agricultural interests of the country. With respect to importation of grain, he was of opinion, that the land now in cultivation would, if properly managed,
1001
Lord De Dunstanville
did not think the agricultural interests of the country would be injured by the present measure, and he could not help thinking it hard upon the West India interest, if, whilst compelled to bring their sugar to this country, they should be precluded from the means, which would be afforded by this measure, of disposing of a part of that produce.
The Duke of Montrose
urged the deficiency in the supply of oats and barley in Scotland, as a strong ground for the present measure.
The Earl of Lauderdale
contended that the Report of the committee of the house of commons on this subject, did not clearly state the grounds on which the present measure was founded. He condemned the principle of sacrificing the interests of the grower of barley to the grower of sugar, observing that the same principle might be extended in a most injurious manner to different trades and manufactures, and contended, that the throwing back upon the market the quantity of barley which would otherwise be consumed in the distilleries, would necessarily cause a great diminution of price, and greatly injure the agricultural interests of the country.
Lord Hawkesbury
contended that the agricultural interests of the country, who were already protected by law in the price fixed, until which, no importation of grain could take place, had no right to complain of the relief now wished to be afforded to another great interest of the country. No one could be more convinced than himself of the importance of supporting the agriculture of the country; he had always considered the agriculture and the navigation of the country, as the two great leading interests on which the prosperity of the country rested. In this case, however, the interests of the whole community required that means should be adopted to prevent the evil consequences of a deficiency of grain arising from there being no importation, and though at present there was every prospect of an abundant harvest, still it should be recollected that the critical period with respect to the future hopes of that harvest had not yet passed. It was in this point of view, added to the actual deficiency which existed in Scotland and Ireland, that he supported the present measure.—The Bill was then read a second time.
1002
HOUSE OF COMMONS.
Thursday, June 23, 1808.
[ARMY CLOTHING.]
Mr. Wardell,
pursuant to his notice, proceeded to call the attention of the house to the subject of Army Clothing. The object of his motion he would frankly state at the outset to be, to save an useless expenditure of the public money, by substituting public contract in the place of private, though, as he should afterwards prove, the system of private contract had received such avowed encouragement from the illustrious personage at the head of the army, and from his majesty's present Secretary at War. He would, before he sat down, prove to the house that the public money had been extravagantly wasted by this system of private contract. It appeared from a letter, signed 'William Merry,' and dated the 2d of July, 1803, that the government had at that time contracted that the army should be supplied with great-coats at the rate of 16
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1007
The Secretary at War
replied to the observations of the hon. gent. Those who were well acquainted with the woollen trade, had informed him that the prices had remained stationary from 1803 to the present time, With respect to the price for great-coats that had been fixed in 1803, namely, 16
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1008
Mr. Whitbread
could find no answer in the speech of the right hon. gent. to a single one of the statements of his hon. friend. The speech of the right hon. secretary at war had consisted principally of a panegyric on great-coats. That the comforts arising from the use of them should be secured to the soldier, he would be one of the last to dispute; but, on the same principle, great part of the rest of the dress of the army should be abolished. Some of them were dressed in such a manner as to be the ridicule of every person who passed by. Some of the cavalry were seen equipped with immense mulls, caps, or hats, which whether the weather was cold or hot, wet or dry, must be equally insupportable; others had immense things hanging over their arm, under which they seemed ready to faint with fatigue. Whiskers too, it might be supposed, were extremely comfortable! He agreed that if a more comfortable great coat could be furnished to the soldier for 16
s.
d.
s.
s.
d.
s.
s.
d.
s.
d.
1009
General Stuart
thought it signified not what was the dress of soldiers, provided they were well disciplined. The dress alluded to by the hon. gent. was adopted in some light regiments of cavalry, in consequence of several Germans having come over to this country, who belonged to regiments that dressed in that way. Such dresses were considered as well adapted to cavalry employed at outposts. The saddles they used were particularly useful on such services. Several Hussar regiments were equipped in imitation of the German cavalry, by, order of the Commander in Chief; and he did not see that their dress was more ridiculous than the long tails and the monstrous inconvenient cocked hats, formerly worn by cavalry. If the business of providing for the clothing; of the soldiers was taken out of the hands of the colonels of regiments, it would produce no benefit to the army, nor any saving to the public. The soldiers would not then be so well off as at present; because it was the ambition of a colonel, who always had a regard for his regiment, to make the soldiers have as good an appearance as possible: and he generally spent more for the dress of the
1010
Mr. Whitbread
congratulated the Church on the vigilance of the two Archbishops, who he conjectured were a few days ago visiting its outposts, as he had discovered them mounted on hussar saddles. [A laugh, and a cry of order!]
Mr. Huskisson
thought every thing the hon. member could wish was now fairly in train, and likely to be accomplished. He defended the treasury from any imputation of blame, but reprobated the idea of open-contracts, as tending to raise the price of commodities to government.
Mr. Fuller
concurred with the hon. gent. (Mr. Whitbread), in ridiculing the dress of some of our regiments, and especially the sudden changes of regimentals, the expence of which had compelled many officers to quit their regiments. Adverting to the scantiness of clothing in some cases, he declared that he had seen instances in which the dress of the soldiers of a regiment had been made so tight, that it had been burst by the sudden contraction occasioned by a shower of rain; and the poor fellows were left with nothing but their shirts to cover a part of their bodies which he would not name. [A laugh.] On the whole, however, he believed that the clothing was conducted on a very equitable principle.—After a few words in explanation, Mr. Wardell withdrew his motions.
[MR. PALMER'S CLAIM.]
The house was moved, that the last of the Resolutions which, upon the 14th of June, was reported from the committee of the whole house, to whom it was referred to consider further of the supply granted to his majesty, and was then agreed to by the house, might be again read:—And the same was, as agreed to by the house, read accordingly, as followeth, viz. Resolved, "That a sum, not exceeding 54,702
l.
s.
d.
The Chancellor of the Exchequer
rose to move for a separate bill on that Resolution, instead of allowing it to form a part of the general Appropriation bill. He would stale his reasons for making this proposition, of which he had given due notice, that it might not appear to be a sudden measure. The ordinary course of the house was to put all the grants of the year into the appropriation bill; but, in adopt-
1011
l.
l.
l.
l.
l.
1012
l.
l.
l.
l.
l.
l.,
l.
l.
l.
l.
s.
d.
l.
1013
l.
l.
1014
l.
The Resolution was entered and read, and on the question being put,
1015
Major Palmer
rose and said—Sir; after the indulgence I experienced from the house on the first discussion of this subject, it was not my intention to have obtruded further on their notice; but the many debates which have since occurred, with the motion now made by the right hon. gent. will, I trust, apologize for the observations I presume to offer. I beg leave to remind the house, that this claim was renewed, in the first instance, by a petition, which had induced his maj.'s late administration to consent to the appointment of a committee to examine the evidence upon Mr. Palmer's Agreement with government, taken by a previous committee in the year 1797, and to report their observations; that the late chancellor of the exchequer (lord H. Petty), had proposed the selection of this committee, consisting of the members for counties, principal manufacturing towns, the gentlemen of the long robe and merchants, as being the most competent to decide on the merits of the case, and to make a well grounded, impartial, and every way satisfactory report to the house. The change of administration prevented this appointment at the moment; but, at the meeting of the new parliament, the petition was again received, and the approbation of the present chancellor of the exchequer given for the adoption of the same measure recommended by his predecessor. A committee, thus constituted and appointed, accordingly sat, and after a deliberate investigation of the Evidence laid before them, with the examination of further evidence, made their report. Mr. Palmer, flattering himself that the report of this committee, so selected, could not but be approved, was much surprised and mortified to learn the disapprobation of the chancellor of the exchequer, and from this consideration, in the hope that, during the recess, the right hon. gent. might have the leisure to examine more fully into the merits of the case, Mr. Palmer was advised, and consented to a temporary postponement of his claim.—I am now, sir, to state my own conduct in this affair. On being returned to parliament at the commencement of the present session, I did myself the honour of waiting on the chancellor of the exchequer to learn his sentiments previous to any notice of a motion on the subject. Upon this occasion the right hon. gent. candidly told me, that he should oppose the measure; but on my remonstrating with him on the hardship of Mr. Palmer's
1016
1017
1018
Mr. Windham.
—Though I cannot, sir, forbear to give my testimony of approbation, in common, I am persuaded, with that of every other gentleman, to the manner in which the hon. member who has just sat down has argued and conducted this business in every part of its progress, and not less so upon the present than on every preceding occasion, yet I must contend that his endeavours ought now to be considered as wholly superfluous, so far as relate either to the merits of the case, or to any interest merely his own; and that the house, having come to a formal adjudication upon the subject, has nothing now to consider but the propriety or impropriety of defending its own decision. It is not a question at the present moment whether what the house decided was right, but whether having so decided, it can, as at present circumstanced, alter its decision. All that the right hon. gent. therefore has been labouring with so much effort, is nothing to the purpose. He has been ransacking the Journals, diving into the depths of parliamentary lore, wasting his time and his pains, and wearing out the eyes of his case-hunter, only to tell us, what nobody ever disputed, that parliament has on different occasions proceeded in both ways, sometimes by a separate bill, and sometimes by introducing grants of the sort in question into appropriation acts. We will admit, if the hon. gentleman wishes it, that the option between these two ways was in the first instance completely open to the house: but the question for us at present is, whether this option continues open to us now. The great edifice, therefore, of the hon. gent.'s learning, however curious and costly, has
1019
1020
1021
1022
Mr. Hawkins Browne
observed, that this appeared to him a question wholly independent of the merits of Mr. Palmer's case. Acts of appropriation, he thought, ought not to be loaded with any extraneous votes. He must acknowledge, that he had not investigated the particulars of Mr. Palmer's case, and was therefore unable to form a judgment of its merits. Great difference of opinion had not only prevailed upon the subject of this vote in that house, but out of doors; and it was his opinion, that the other branch of the legislature should not be deprived of the opportunity of unrestrained judgment upon the measure. The hon. gent. then entered into a justification of the grant to the duke of Athol, and concluded with expressing a wish that the business should undergo every proper discussion.
Sir Thomas Turton.
—Sir, I never rose to submit my observations on any question before the house with greater feelings of concern, or indignation, than I now do on the very extraordinary speech and motion of my right hon. friend. Before I enter on the subject of it I cannot avoid making some observations on the consistency and liberality of the hon. gent. who has just sat down. He prefaced his speech with the acknowledgment 'that he had not been able to investigate the particulars of Mr. Palmer's case, and was therefore unable to form any judgment of its merits,' and yet after this confession, the hon. gent. has had the candour and justice to give a decided opinion on a case, on the particulars of which he has avowed his ignorance. The hon. gent. cannot take it amiss, that I am not inclined to give much weight, or to pay much respect to an opinion so formed. But the hon. member is certainly correct in observing that these merits and claims (on which, however, he has stept out of the way to pass his judgment) cannot affect the vote of to-night, for as the right hon. gent. opposite (Mr. Windham) has observed, whatever may be the event of the present motion, those claims
1023
1024
1025
1026
1027
1028
1029
s.
fiat justitia, ruat cœlum.
Mr. G. Johnstone
defended his right hon. friend the chancellor of the exchequer from the imputations of the hon. baronet, who, if confirmed in the opinions he expressed of his right hon. friend, ought not to have addressed him as he had done. He thought his right hon. friend deficient in firmness and decision in not refusing, in the first instance, the king's consent to Mr. Palmer's application; but when he did give this consent, he had distinctly stated, that he gave it only that the question should be investigated, and at the same time declined any pledge upon the subject. All the cases quoted by his right hon. friend appeared to him to be perfectly in point. He then contended, that the measure should be sent up to the lords in a shape in which that house should have an opportunity of exercising their unfettered discretion and judgment.
Mr. Tierney.
—Sir; I congratulate the chancellor of the exchequer on the splendid figure he makes in the estimation of two of his leading supporters. By the one (sir T. Turton) he is described as having exerted all the influence of government
1030
1031
l.
1032
1033
l.
l.
l.
l.
l.
1034
l.
l.
l.
1035
l.
l.
1036
Mr. Bankes.
—Sir, I cannot, I must own, discover any reason why the lords should be debarred the liberty of examining a subject like this, founded on the existence or non-existence of a contract, especially when they have the right of administering oaths to extort truth, at the bar of their house, and especially as there are so many cases produced to show that this is not an unusual mode of proceeding. I have paid
1037
Mr. Ponsonby.
—Sir, there is certainly no necessity for calling on the other house to Interfere in an investigation like the present. This house alone is the best judge of the appeal; here is now no question of interpretation of contract, but a plain question of fact already determined by a decision of this house; but the right hon. gent. in contempt of that grave decision, established by five distinct and large majorities, has made his present motion to the house. The right hon. gent. I think acted right in giving the consent of the crown, if he had intended to support the measure, or at least to have stood neuter; but his conduct has been extremely faulty in giving the house the trouble of debating a question like this, when he was determined that their endeavours should be frustrated in the manner now proposed.— The hon. gent. who spoke last says there are many precedents in support of this motion; now, after a most diligent search for upwards of one hundred years, there are just six produced, and even those have scarcely any connection with this question; yet the honorable gentleman appeals to the number of precedents in support of the motion! The same hon. gent. advises caution in our proceedings, for it would be extremely inconsistent (he says) to compel the lords to grant the arrears, when they have rejected the future remuneration. Now, that they would reject the arrears also, is certainly a non sequitur, for they might think this sum a sufficient reward, and the future grant too much. I do not say it is very probable, but it is certainly very possible.—This certainly is the first time I ever heard the house of commons should pursue a measure contrary to its own resolutions, merely out of compliment to the lords. The method of tacking bills, as it is called, to the Appropriation act, may, certainly, in some instances be mischievous; but if this house
1038
1039
Mr. Rose
said that if there was a necessity for more precedents he could certainly produce them. The object of this motion was to give the lords an opportunity of judging, of the merits of Mr. Palmer's Claim. The majority of grants made to individuals were by separate bills, and not by a clause in the Appropriation act. As a proof of this, the right hon. gent. cited the grants to Dr. Smith, Mr. Phillips, and Mr. Stephens. He was extremely sorry that he was again obliged to allude to Mr. Palmer's official conduct, but really, after the perusal of the letters written by Mr. Palmer, and after examining the evidence before them, how the house could have supported Mr. Palmer as it had done, was to him a matter of great surprise.
Mr. Fuller,
with considerable warmth, declared that the lords had not the least authority over Money bills, and as long-as he had a vote they should never interfere in that or any other established right. The house of commons alone was the proper guardian of the public purse. He was very sorry to see the hon. gent. (Mr. Bankes) so captious and fretful, when his own bill was lately thrown out of the other house, and he was more so, when he saw him lend his countenance to a measure like this, entrenching on the dearest privileges of the constitution. The hon. gent. seemed to think that his opinion would have a great effect on the house. It reminded him of a beautiful passage in Shakspeare. His quiddities and cranks mantled like a standing pool,' and again 'I am sir Oracle, when I speak, let no dog bark.' Though he was decidedly of opinion that Mr. Palmer's Claims were founded in justice, he did not think they were at all at stake that night, but that the house should
1040
Sir Francis Burdett.
—I would not, sir, at this late hour, trespass on the patience of the house, had not the right hon. gent. opposite (Mr. Rose) reflected on Mr. Palmer's character, in a manner which, so far from being justified by the evidence, is completely refuted. The right hon. gent. has again reverted to his favourite argument of the letters; and from them has attempted to infer that Mr. Palmer did not act with integrity. Now, my lord Walsingham was asked by the committee, whether he had ever any reason to doubt Mr. Palmer's personal integrity? the noble lord's answer was, "No, never in the smallest degree." And my lord Chesterfield, to the same question, gave exactly the same answer; and these were the last persons to be supposed favourable to Mr. Palmer. Is it, then, to be supposed, that if any circumstance had occurred to justify such an assertion, that they would have withheld the publication of it? I think those Letters contain nothing but what is very excusable; for when we consider, that Mr. Palmer had embarked his honour, his reputation, his fortune, and every thing that was dear to him, on this undertaking, and that if it had failed, every thing he had staked must fall with it, we can hardly imagine he would have expressed himself more mildly in a confidential letter of those, who, he had good reason to believe, were using every endeavour in their power, under the veil of office, to thwart his plans, destroy his hopes, and render abortive all his expectations of realizing the great considerations he had ventured on his success. Yet even admitting Mr. Palmer's alleged indiscretion beyond a doubt, the public word is given, and it must be redeemed or forfeited by the conduct of this house. Mr. Palmer's deserts and the equity of his demands have been copiously debated, and have been honourably confirmed and admitted by five very large majorities. They must, therefore, be considered as entirely separate from this night's contest. We are this night to assert or resign a privilege, which has always been considered a peculiar and established right. I do think it a most impolitic step, if we resign one inch of our peculiar liberties: for surely there cannot
1041
Mr. Burton
denied that the general merits of the case of Mr. Palmer formed the question now before the house. The only question was, how the vote passed by this house, and to be adhered to so far as this house was concerned, should be sent to the lords, whether in the Appropriation Act, or in a separate bill. He maintained that all the circumstances of the case particularly called for a separate bill.
Mr. Whitbread
wished that the Speaker was at liberty to enter into the debate and give some opinion as to the accuracy of the proceedings of the chancellor of the exchequer, but the right hon. gent. had prudently availed himself of the silence imposed upon that great authority by his being placed in the chair: he had valiantly marched to the attack of the battery when the great gun was spiked: for as to the precedents he had produced, he did not think they gave the least support to the correctness of the right hon. gent.'s conduct.—The hon. gent. besought every member who heard him not to be cajoled into the idea that it was the intention or wish of the chancellor of the exchequer that the present bill should pass the house of lords. What was his conduct as minister of the crown? He came down to the house and moved the passing of a bill, for a grant which he professed to disapprove. Surely, the right hon. gent. placed himself in a very aukward predicament; for it must be his intention either to cheat the public or to cheat Mr. Palmer. If the grant was an unjust one, he cheated the public; if the grant was right, by the trick resorted to, to defeat it, he would cheat Mr. Palmer. He was very happy to see an hon. and learned gent. who had been so long absent from the house on account of his indisposition, in his place, as he was sure the name of sir Vicary Gibbs would be added to the supporters of Mr. Palmer's Claim, as he had the precedent of his predecessor who had also supported it, who acted without the same favourable occurrence of having the late
1042
Mr. Canning
said, the merits of Mr. Palmer's case formed no part of the question before the house. The only question was, in what manner the house should carry its decision into effect? The precedents were not all on one side. There were some for the course proposed by the chancellor of the exchequer, and the house was free to follow the line that should please it. He censured the objection to referring the whole question to the lords, because that house could examine witnesses on oath to the matters of fact. He insisted on the constitutional impropriety of sending the present, business to the lords, otherwise than in a separate bill.
The Chancellor of the Exchequer
denied in his reply, that giving the recommendation of the crown so as to bring a measure under the consideration of the house, implied an obligation to support it in its progress through the house. He also vindicated his conduct in proposing this bill, on the knowledge that the house of lords was examining the agreement with Mr. Palmer. —The house then divided:
For the Motion
186
Against it
63
Majority
—123
HOUSE OF COMMONS.
Friday, June 24, 1808.
[STATE OF THE EMPIRE.]
Mr. Wharton
brought up the report of the committee on the Appropriation bill. The amendments were read a first and second time. On the motion, that they be agreed to,
1043
Mr. Whitbread
rose, and expressed him-self to the following effect:—Mr. Speaker; As the session appears hastening to a close, I am desirous of putting to his majesty's ministers some questions, with respect to the various internal and external relations of the empire, which, it appears to me, to be more convenient to state collectively, than to make them the subjects of separate discussions in this house. For this purpose, sir, I should have availed myself of the opportunity which the Vote of Credit afforded me, had I not been apprehensive, from circumstances of which the house must be aware, that such a proceeding at that time would have led to a discussion which, in my opinion, was to be deprecated. But, sir, by the usages of the house of commons, many occasions arise in which questions of the nature to which I have alluded, may be put to his majesty's ministers, and the reception of the report of the Appropriation bill is one. I shall therefore take advantage of it.—Sir, the present session has been a very laborious one, and has extended to very great length: as much business has been done in the course of it, as was, perhaps, ever done in any preceding session of parliament. Not only, sir, has the attendance of members in the house itself, been most assiduous, and at the same time highly creditable to themselves, but also their attendance in the committees assembled upon matters of the deepest national importance. By the committee on the West India trade, a Report has been made, on which a bill was introduced into parliament, of which, as it has now become a law, I shall only say, treat I hope and wish it may conduce to afford the relief to the West India Planters predicted from it; and I trust, sir, that the subsequent Reports which have been presented from the same committee, will meet with a serious investigation, and that every effort will be made to remedy the evils which they point out. The Committee on the Affairs of the East India Company have made a great progress in the execution of the task entrusted to them. I think the public has a right to expect that the Accounts between the government and the East India Company are finally closed; and that the latter can have no further claim on the former. Long as the session of parliament has been, it certainly has been somewhat shortened in consequence of the recommendation of the right hon. gent. opposite to me (Mr. R. Dundas) to the East India Company, not to press
1044
1045
1046
1047
1048
Mr. Secretary Canning.
—Sir; the hon. gent, needs no apology for making any observations, or proposing any questions to his majesty's ministers, which to him may seem advisable. I will endeavour, sir, as far as I am able, and with the utmost disposition to frankness on my part, to give to the hon. gent, the satisfaction which he requires. In doing this I will begin with the topics with which he concluded his speech. The hon. gent, expresses great surprise that the armament sent to the assistance of the king of Sweden, has not yet commenced active operations. The answer to this remark, sir, is to be found in the proposition that this armament was sent to the assistance of the king of Sweden. It was sent to co-operate with the forces of an ally; to be subject to the plans of warfare which that ally might direct; if in the interval that has elapsed from the fitting out of the expedition considerable changes have taken place in the posture of affairs, and in the military councils of Sweden, that circumstance would sufficiently account for the inactivity of the British force. If any blame can be imputed to his majesty's government on this head, it must be for the decision which projected the expedition, and for the promptitude with which that decision was
1049
1050
1051
1052
1053
Mr. Whitbread
declared that he had asked for no information with respect to the probability or the improbability of peace; he had only called the attention of government to that important subject. The right hon. the chancellor of the exchequer, notwithstanding what had been said by the right hon. gent, who had just spoken, had certainly held out the expectation that the enforcement of the orders of council would induce America to see her true interest, and that she would in consequence withdraw her embargo. The fact, however, was otherwise. As to what the right hon. gent, had said of the echo of the debates in that house, having produced an irritation in the American mind, which was subsequently allayed, such a statement was a general reprobation of
1054
1055
Mr. R. Dundas
replied to those observations of the hon. gent. which related to the affairs of the East India company. The hon. gent, had asked whether the account between his majesty's government and the East India company had been brought to a final close; and whether the sum that had been already voted was all that it was intended to propose on that subject? Undoubtedly, in his apprehension, as far as related to the account of which the balance was struck, with the exception perhaps of some items, of which only a rough estimate had been given, for want of the necessary documents. But it should be observed, that the account between government and the East India company was an account current, and that if the balance were struck at a particular period, the account still going on, the result must necessarily alter. The hon. gent. supposed that the aids to the company would be sufficient to carry them on till the re-assembling of parliament. The fact was, that at the commencement of the present session, circumstances led him to suppose that the company would require further aid; but the balance due to them from government turning out to be larger than was imagined, and the company's affairs assuming a more favourable aspect, as far as related to their sales at home, he
1056
[WEST INDIA MERCHANTS.]
Mr. Barham,
after enumerating the various measures that had been adopted and recommended for the relief of the West India interest, and commenting upon their value and efficacy, moved, pursuant to his notice, "That the house do resolve itself into a committee of the whole house, to take into consideration the second and third Reports of the West India committee."
Lord Binning
rose to second the motion, and regretted that it should have been made in so thin a house, as the subject was of sufficient importance to entitle it to a fuller attendance.
Mr. Rose
regretted that the hon. gent, should, at this stage of the session, have thought proper to bring forward a question of this description. The hon. gent., from his speech, seemed to have brought forward the motion with a view to give himself an opportunity of stating that the measures which had been taken for the relief of the West Indies were not effectual to their object. The right hon. gent. then entered into a statement to shew that the measures adopted would be beneficial to the West India interest, and cautioned them against importuning the house with their case lest they might indispose it towards their relief!
Mr. Marriot
and the Chancellor of the Exchequer opposed the motion, on account of the protracted period of the session, and thought the measures already adopted would be sufficient till next session.
Mr. G. Hibbert
said, that although neither his eyes nor his ears had been gratified in the present debate, (the thin attend-
1057
escapes,
1058
permanent
1059
1060
Imported, value
65,000,000
Exported
35,000,000
Consumed at home
30,000,000
In the course of the Seven Years War, while we acted upon the Rule which bears the name of the Rule of 1756, say from 1756 to 1763, the average of the eight years was reduced to these amounts:
Imported
15,400,00O
Exported
12,200,000
Consumed
3,200,000
After that war, followed a peace of 13 years, say from 1761 to 1776 inclusive, during which France had assiduously studied to restore her colonies. The average of this period was,
Imported
112,000,000
Exported
37,700,000
Consumed
74,300,000
Then followed the American war, in which we had relaxed our former rule, and the average of seven years of their trade from 1777 to 17S3, both inclusive, was
Imported
108,700,000
Exported
50,000,000
Consumption
58, 100,000
The house would see that during that war France, though she was compelled to consume less at home of her colonial produce, yet greatly increased her foreign export thereof beyond the average of the preceding peace; and upon the return of peace, commencing with a colonial trade so little checked or impeded, he begged the house to remark that in the succeeding five years of peace, from 17S4to 1788, (immediately before the Revolution) she had arrived at the surprizing increase of an Import equal in value to
193,200,000
Export
93,000,000
Consumption
100,200,000
1061
Mr. Ellis
contended, that in the present situation of G. Britain the importation of brandy and foreign spirits into this country, ought to be, by all means, discouraged, as tending to overturn the interests of the corn-growers of this island, and the sugar merchants of the colonies, by the deficiency in the consumption of the article of rum; whilst it was serviceable to the enemy, by encouraging the importation of their commodities, by indirect means, into this country.
Lord H. Petty
gave notice, that early in the next session of parliament he should take an opportunity of attracting the attention of the house to the destructive consequences of the Orders in Council; and should, therefore, abstain from entering into the course of argument which had been pursued by the gentlemen who had preceded him.
Mr. Barham
briefly replied, and contended that he had not undervalued the remedial measures resorted to by this country, for the relief of the West India merchants: he concluded with informing the house, that he should not proceed to a division on the question then before it.—
1062
[MR. PALMER'S CLAIM.]
Mr. Huskisson brought up Mr. Palmer's Arrears bill, which was read a first time.
The Chancellor of the Exchequer,
in moving that it be read a second time to-morrow, stated it to be his intention to give every support to this bill for carrying it through that house. But if the hon. gent. who was concerned in the measure did not wish that it should proceed further, he should feel that he had done his duty in bringing it in, and the hon. gentleman might, if he thought it right, suffer the order of the day to drop.
Mr. W. Smith
approved of the candour of the right hon. gentleman. He saw no cause of disapprobation which could exist against him for his conduct, notwithstanding all that had been urged against him last night.—The bill was then ordered to be read a second time to-morrow.
[SCOTCH JUDICATURE BILL.]
On the motion of the Lord Advocate of Scotland for the third reading of this bill,
Mr. Adam
rose and addressed the house as follows:*—Mr. Speaker; I rise in a very thin house, not at a very early hour, and at a very late period of the session, to discuss a subject of the greatest consequence to the part of the united kingdom to which it relates.—My intention is to discuss, and not to oppose; and my object is to make some parts relating to this most important subject generally known and attended to by means of discussion in this place.—It is highly necessary that many of the regulations, proposed by this bill, should be well understood, and that others should be suggested for consideration. [At this period an interruption took place, owing to some members leaving the house, when Mr. Adam said, with some eagerness]— Sir, I know how little interesting this subject must be to many gentlemen present; I am not, therefore, surprised at their departure; but I should conceive, late even as it is in the session, and exhausted as the house may be with previous business, it will hardly be thought decent to have it said, that a system of civil judicature, relating to the most important interests of Scotland, and affecting no less than two millions and a half of his majesty's subjects, has been discussed and passed in a house not sufficient, according to its cod-
* From the original edition, printed for John Murray, Fleet-street, 1808.
1063
1064
1065
1066
1067
1068
1069
1070
1071
1072
1073
1074
ab eodem ad eundem,
1075
ab eodem ad eundem
1076
1077
1078
1079
seriatim,
1080
1081
1082
1083
1084
HOUSE OF COMMONS.
Saturday, June 25, 1808.
[Mr. PALMER'S CLAIM.]
The Chancellor of the Exchequer
stated, that it was not his intention to move the second reading of Mr. Palmer's bill. A communication had been made to him, that it was not the wish of Mr. Palmer that any further step should, at present, be taken on it, therefore, agreeably to what he had said last night, he should not proceed further in the bill.
1085
HOUSE OF LORDS.
Monday, June 27, 1808.
[APPROPRIATION ACT.]
On the motion for the second reading of this bill,
The Earl of Lauderdale
took occasion to reprobate the manner in which, of late years, grants of money were brought before their lordships, and which went to deprive, their lordships of all power of inquiry into the causes of such grants. These grants were made part of the Appropriation act; and as their lordships could make no alteration in the act without disturbing the arrangement of the supplies for the public, they were therefore debarred from making any amendment at all in the present act. This act contained the grant to the college of Maynooth, and another of 1,500,000
l.
The Earl of Suffolk
said, that it was a subject of great importance, and that the affairs of the East India company ought to be inquired into; for such was their management, that he believed it would be better for this country that the East India company should lose their possessions in that quarter of the globe altogether; and it might be desirable that such an event should happen soon, rather than increase our grants of large sums of the public money.
Lord Hawkesbury
contended, that in respect to the grant made to Maynooth college, nothing had been done upon this occasion, but what the legislature had done with regard to former grants of this nature to the same college. When the last grant was voted by the house of com-
1086
Lord Holland
did not wish to protract the present discussion, but he must observe, that if the house were thus to be treated, if they were thus to proceed without necessary information, they had better shut their doors at once than be degraded in the public estimation.—The motion was then negatived without a division.
[CURATES RESIDENCE BILL.]
The Earl of Buckinghamshire,
previous to their lordships entering into any discussion upon this bill, moved, "That a Return be made of all the benefices in the kingdom of 400
l.
Lord Harrowby
opposed the motion, as it then stood, and proposed an amendment, omitting the words 'distinguishing those, and in that shape he had no inclination to oppose the motion.
The Archbishop of Canterbury
represented the great difficulty which would attend any attempt to gain the desired information.
Viscount Sidmouth
expressed his concurrence in the motion as proposed by the noble earl; after which the house divided: Contents 16; Non-contents 28. Majority against the motion 12.
The Bishop of London
then rose, and stated that he trusted the house would excuse any omission he might make in delivering his sentiments; for he felt the pressure of great age and bodily infirmity. It would become him, in the best manner he could, to give to the house the reasons which had led to the introduction of the present bill, and then to give a description of the provisions contained therein. Their lordships would take into consideration
1087
l.
l.
l.
1088
l.
l.
l.
l.
The Earl of Moira
considered the arguments alledged by the right rev. prelate,
1089
l.
l.
Lord Harrowby
vindicated the present measure, as justified by the laws of ancient and modern times. There was some reason to apprehend that the ecclesiastical law, without any act of the legislature, permitted the bishops to interfere with the disposal of benefices, for the purpose of having the service duly performed. The right by which all livings were held, he contended, was conditional. He argued from the canons and the statutes for centuries, that it had always been deemed the lawful right of the bishop to appropriate a part, and sometimes the whole, as a remuneration to the resident and officiating clergyman.
Viscount Sidmouth
attributed the present measure to the reverend prelate who had spoken first in debate, and he regretted much that his duty obliged him to differ in opinion from one he so highly esteemed and venerated. But he was conscientiously bound to declare that he was inimical to the principle of the present bill. He could not consider the relief given to the curate as permanent; the rector might return to perform his duty, and then the increased salary of the curate would be taken from him, and he must return to his
1090
The Earl of Suffolk
rose for the purpose of making a few observations, in respect to what had been stated by the noble viscount, concerning the situation of distressed curates. Two years ago he had interested himself on that subject, and had received nearly two hundred letters from persons of that class of the profession, but he had now lost them; but there were statements amongst them, which would have caused a benevolent heart to bleed. One of these letters accidentally was preserved (his lordship here read it); it stated that the rector possessed 1000
l.
l.
The Earl of Buckinghamshire
considered the present measure calculated to create great dissatisfaction and uneasiness amongst the beneficed clergy. He did not conceive that its advocates had made out a case, or that any evil was proved, calling for a remedy which so vitally affected the
1091
The Archbishop of Canterbury
felt anxious to convince the house, that the measure proposed was neither oppressive in its operation, nor a violation of the interests of the Church. The power which it gave to the bishops was only similar to that with which they were invested in the earliest times of the constitution of the Church. He cited the case of a bishop of Worcester, who was rebuked by the Pope, for not allowing a sufficient compensation to vicars temporal—curates, as they were then designated in his diocese. Indeed, up to the Reformation, and subsequent to that period, such power was vested in the ordinary; and the very evil now sought to be redressed, was in a great degree to be traced to the enactment of a legislative provision, which, for purposes then perhaps apparently wise, deprived the bishops of such power, and substituted an act of parliament as the mode of regulation. The right rev. prelate concluded by observing, that he would be the last man in that house who would support the measure, if it in the remotest degree trenched upon the security or interests of the Established Church, but at the same time that he gave his support to the principle, he did by no means pledge himself to accede to any one of its provisions.
The Lord Chancellor
took the opportunity of saying, that it was his wish to restore those powers which originally were vested in the ordinary, and of which in times of violence they were deprived. His own opinion on this bill was in unison with the two decisions of the other house of parliament, and a previous one of their lordships; but still, though he supported
1092
The Earl of Lauderdale
reprobated the measure. It violated the security of the property of the church, at the same time that it weakened the interests of religion. It was with young men in that sacred calling as it was with those in the other respectable professions of life. Deprive them of the stimulus to professional advancement and the spur to honourable ambition, and the legislature would deaden their industry and activity, both in the exertion of the talents, and the practice of the duties, which led to the highest honours in that and the other professions. In applying that principle to the present bill, he contended, that to give the young curate such an actual provision for all the enjoyments of life, as this bill gave, went to deaden every motive of fair ambition, and every inducement to deserve, by his exemplary exertions, the highest honours of the Church. He had a more paramount objection to this bill, inasmuch as it legislated on the morality of the country. The unerring testimony of experience convinced him that such precepts were worse enforced, if not totally perverted, by an act of parliament. The natural instinct, of man led him to the fulfilment of his duties. The parent knew, and would practise, his duties to his child; so would the child to his parent; but, introduce an act of parliament for such regulation, and its introduction would not fail to dissolve the cement of the social feelings, and poison the very sources of human happiness. Besides, there appeared no necessity for this measure, as there was on their table neither addresses from curates, complaining of insufficient salaries, or from parishioners complaining of a neglect of duty in their rectors. But, perhaps, the great origin of the evil would be found in the frequency of ordination, and in calling to that profession such numbers of young clergymen as it was impossible to provide for. In such case the evils ought not to be visited on the beneficed clergy, but should be attributed to that glut of the commodity which the reverend prelates themselves occasioned. He also opposed the bill as laying a great weight on the possessor of a small living, at the same time that it affected the rector, with 2000
l.
The question was then put, and the
1093
HOUSE OF LORDS.
Tuesday, June 28, 1808.
[CURATES RESIDENCE BILL.]
Lord Harrowby,
pursuant to a notice which he gave yesterday, rose to submit a motion to their lordships, which was suggested to him by some observations that had been made during the discussion of this question. It was agreed, and seemed to be wished on all hands, that something should be done towards improving the condition of the inferior clergy. It had all along been his opinion, that the house was proceeding to legislate on a matter respecting which they had nothing like adequate information before them. This want of due information he felt very anxious to supply; and the object of his present motion was, to endeavour to ascertain the number of livings which were under 150
l.
l.
l.
l.
The Archbishop of Canterbury
expressed his thanks to the noble baron for the pains he had taken on this subject, and his readiness to co-operate with him in the prosecution of his object.
The Earl of Moira
also gave his hearty concurrence to the motion, and declared that no man could be more anxious than he was to see the condition of the inferior clergy improved. It was not only the comfort of those respectable persons he had in view, but the improvement of the morals of the commonalty, which improvement was intimately connected with the ease and comfort of the clergy. Perhaps,
1094
Lord Hawkesbury
approved of the motion, and assured his noble friend that every thing should be done by him to give effect to his laudable intentions and endeavours.—The question was then put and agreed to. After which the order of the day was read for the house to resolve itself into a committee on the bill, when
Lord Sidmouth
rose to move an instruction to the committee. In his opinion, whatever came under the description of the object which the bill had in view, might be embraced by it. Its object was to afford relief to resident curates, where that relief was justly required, and where, it might be easily procured. His wish now was to extend that relief to curates appointed by lay impropriators, and his lordship concluded with moving an instruction to the committee to that effect.
Lord Hawkesbury
was sorry he could not assent to the proposition of his noble friend. That proposition broached an entirely new principle, which was not connected with the present bill. It should therefore be introduced in a separate bill, and stand upon its own merits. The principle of the present bill was not new, but had already been, twice at least, recognized and sanctioned by parliament.
1095
HOUSE OF LORDS.
Wednesday, June 29, 1808.
[APPROPRIATION ACT.]
On the motion for going into a committee on this act,
Lord Holland
rose, and repeated his objections against inserting in this act the Grant to the college of Maynooth, and that to the East India company. The change in the amount of the former grant, he saw no reason to justify. It was a deviation from the principle upon which the grant had first been made, and upon which it had been augmented in the last session of parliament. He wished to learn from the noble secretary of state, by what inducements government had been led to diminish the grant, and thus depart from the principle which had first suggested it to the adoption of government, and the sanction of the last session of parliament. That principle, the world knew, was the principle of so far conciliating the catholics of Ireland.
Lord Hawkesbury
acknowledged, that the grant had in some measure been diminished; but it was upon an understanding that no larger a sum should be granted I than was necessary to complete the buildings that were then commenced at this establishment. It was originally intended that accommodation should be provided for a certain number of students; but when it was proposed to carry that accommodation to an unlimited extent, it was thought proper to stop at what was first, conceived to be an adequate provision.
The Earl of Lauderdale
reprobated the idea of circumscribing the privileges and powers of that house, by conforming to any understanding that might be supposed to have been agreed to in another place. There was no end to the extent to which such a mode of reasoning might be carried, if it was sufficient to say, that upon an understanding between ministers in another place, such and such a measure was to be
1096
Lord Hawkesbury
disavowed any such design on his part, and only adverted to the principle upon which the measure had; elsewhere been adopted, and not to any particular understanding between individuals of his majesty's government on the subject.—The bill was then reported.
[STAMP DUTIES BILL.]
On going into a committee upon this bill,
Lord Holland
inveighed against the principle of this bill in the severest terms. It went to oppress those who were already labouring under circumstances of distress and difficulty, by increasing the duties on deeds of conveyance, which besides must fall with peculiar hardship on the proprietors of land. The bill would also severely affect attorneys, and he should never approve of any principle of taxation that tended to press with peculiar weight on any particular class of the community.
Lord Hawkesbury
observed, that under the urgent exigencies of the present moment, it was necessary to have recourse to every possible source of revenue. The principle of the present bill had long been acknowledged and acted upon by parliament, and the increase of the duties in the present instance was only a further extension of that principle. That principle did not bear harder on the landed than on the commercial interest; on the contrary, it must weigh heavier on the latter than on the former, as transfers of property were more frequent among commercial men than among landed proprietors. It moreover would operate equally on the buyer and the seller.
Lords Rosslyn
and Lauderdale contended, on the contrary, that the hardships of the increased duty would fall almost entirely on the seller, who, from urgent circumstances was compelled to transfer his properly. Indeed, the principle of the bill was in every respect iniquitous and unjust.—After a few words from lord Hawkesbury, the house resolved itself into a committee, en the bill; after which, the report was received, and the bill was ordered to be read a third time to-morrow.
HOUSE OF COMMONS.
Wednesday, June 29, 1808.
[MR. ALEXANDER DAVISON.]
Lord A. Hamilton
rose to put a question to the
1097
The Chancellor of the Exchequer
could not have the smallest objection to the production of the fullest information on the subject of the inquiry to which the noble lord had alluded. The noble lord could not be unaware that a parliamentary commission had been appointed, to whom the whole of Mr. Davison's accounts had, in consequence, been referred. That commission had from time to time made Reports upon the subject of the inquiry intrusted to them, to the Treasury, which regularly submitted these Reports to the law advisers of the crown for their opinion, whether a civil or criminal process should be founded thereon. It appeared upon some of them that the inquiries were not sufficient; upon others, on the contrary, it was considered that a legal demand existed on the part of the nation, to be recovered by civil process; and in every such case, application had been made to
1098
[FINANCE COMMITTEE.]
Mr. Bankes
presented from the bar the Third Report of the Committee of Finance. On the report having been read, the hon. gent. rose to move that it do lie on the table, but before he should make that proposition, he felt it necessary to address an observation or two to the house. He hoped that gentlemen would not be alarmed at the enormous mass of papers which he had brought up, because under the instructions which had been given to the committee, he had conceived it necessary to communicate all the returns upon which the Report of the committee was founded. Only a small part, however, of the papers before the house, would be necessary to be printed, and he trusted, from the part he had taken in the discussions respecting the printing of papers, that the house would give him credit for not wishing to have more printed I than were absolutely necessary to put the house in possession of the subject. It was only a small part therefore of the papers which he had brought that he should move to be printed. On presenting a Report, which had occupied so large a portion of the attention of the committee, he was afraid that the house might suppose that much time had been lost in preparing it. But he could say, as well for himself, as on the part of the other members of the committee, that they had not been wanting in their duty. The delay, and that of some months, in presenting the Report, had arisen from the contrariety of opinion which had taken place in the committee, owing perhaps to its being composed of too numerous an assemblage of members. If it should be the pleasure of the house, that the committee should be renewed in another session, it would be a question.
1099
Mr. Leycester
coincided with the hon. gentleman in every thing he had asserted, with respect to the assiduity with which the hon. gentleman and the other mem-
1100
1101
Mr. H. Thornton
was anxious that this subject should be fully explained to the house. He had risen to support the statement that had been made by the chairman of tile committee, and to prevent any improper impression being made by the statement of the learned gentleman who had just sat down. That learned gentleman seemed to think, that the difference between the passages of the original report and the alterations made in it, was wholly unimportant, whereas, for his own part, he thought it by no means trifling or unimportant. As the report stood a week ago, it expressed a wish to retain those sinecure places which were necessary to the dignity of the crown, and went on to state, that the remainder, with few exceptions, ought to be abolished. In this passage, the committee expressed a decided opinion upon the principle of sinecures. It recognized the principle of the former finance committee in reserving these sinecures, which would be the remuneration of great public services, and for which, if not reserved, a provision should be substi-
1102
Mr. Horner
said, he should be glad to know precisely what parts were intended to be printed, and what to be left out. It seemed now doubly necessary from the account they had just heard of the difference of opinion in the Committee, that the house should have as much as possible before them, in order to be able to form a judgment for themselves.
Mr. Bankes
replied, that whatever difference of opinion there might have been on other subjects, there had been none as to the selection of the particular documents necessary to be printed along with the report. Every information would be before the house, and a catalogue of the papers not required to be printed, but which were laid on the table, would be added, so that those papers might at any time be referred to for particulars.
[DISMISSAL OF THE LATE MR. DALRYMPLE.]
Lord H. Petty
, understanding that no objection would be made to his motion, after paying a high tribute to the science and services of the late Mr. Andrew Dalrymple, who had been offered a pension equal to his salary as Hydrographer to the Admiralty if he would resign, and on his refusal had been peremptorily dismissed his office, which circumstance had accelerated his death, moved for a copy of a Letter of the lords of the admiralty dismissing the late Mr. Andrew Dalrymple from his office of Hydrographer to the Admiralty.
Mr. R. Ward
had no objection whatever to the production of this and every other document connected with the subject, and went along with the noble lord in bearing testimony to the merits and services of the gentleman whose removal was the object of the noble lord's motion. He could-
1103
After a few words from Mr. Horner in praise of Mr. Dalrymple, and from lord H. Petty and Mr. Ward, the motion was suffered to lie over for to-morrow, to give the latter an opportunity of considering how far the circumstances of the case could be brought under the consideration of the house.
[CRIMINALS.]
On the motion of sir S. Romilly, the following Papers were ordered, I. "A Return of the number of persons, male or female, committed to the several gaols in England and Wales for trial at the different sessions and assizes in the years 1800, 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, and 7; distinguishing the crimes with which they were respectively charged, and the numbers severally convicted, acquitted, or discharged upon proclamation, or by reason of no bill being found against them, and the sentences of such as were convicted, and distinguishing also the numbers of those capitally convicted, who have been executed; and distinguishing particularly, in each year, the number of persons, male or female, committed for privately stealing in a shop or warehouse to the amount of five shillings, and of those committed for stealing in a dwelling-house to the amount of forty shillings, and of those committed for stealing cloth from bleaching grounds to the amount of ten shillings, and the numbers indicted for such several offences, and the numbers convicted capitally upon such indictments and the numbers of those so capitally convicted who have been executed
1104
[HYDE PARK.]
Mr. Huskisson
presented an account of the Land Revenues of the crown; on the motion that it do lie on the table,
Mr. Windham
, though not sure that the subject to which he was about to allude was within the cognizance of the house, yet considered it well worth its attention. He had heard lately that it was in contemplation to extend the buildings (which had already been carried too far), still further into Hyde park. Any contraction of that scene of public exercise and recreation would be extremely injurious to the health and comforts of the inhabitants of this great metropolis; and though he was not prepared to make any motion upon this subject, as a representative, of the people, he was entitled to bring a matter of so much importance to their health and interests under the consideration of parliament.
The Chancellor of the Exchequer
was at a loss to know what the right hon. gent. meant. He was not aware that the house could interfere with the disposal of the property of the crown, where an improvement was intended. When the right hon. gent. should give notice of this motion, then the house could judge of the question in some tangible shape. It could scarcely be the right hon. gent.'s opinion, that no
1105
Mr. Windham
did not impute blame to any set of men, but still contended, that this was an interesting subject, and deserving the attention of the house.
Mr. Creevey
corroborated what had fallen from his right hon. friend, and asserted that a correspondence had taken place between several of the nobility and Mr. Fordyce, on the subject of these buildings, and that Mr. Fordyce had been so accommodating, as to recommend to the crown, that they should be allowed to build the houses they proposed. If the precedent of the encroachment were once established, the public would, in the end, be excluded from the park. This was a fit object of the attention of that house. Besides, the recommendation might be a matter of favouritism, of which that house should be jealous. He therefore gave notice, that he should move for copies of the correspondence he had alluded to.
The Chancellor of the Exchequer
had stated only, that he knew of no plan for extending buildings so as to contract the park. Application, however, had been made to the treasury to have superior buildings, in the place of very inferior ones now existing.
Mr. Biddulph
observed, that if the plan were to stop there it might not be so objectionable. But he assured the house he had heard, in a casual conversation concerning improvement, of a plan for surrounding the parks with a belt of houses, the profits of which would defray the expence of building such a palace as would be suitable for a king of this country to reside in.
Sir F. Burden
had not heard of any of the plans alluded to by the hon. gent, who had just sat down, and confident he was, that they would not be countenanced in any quarter. The access to the parks was so essential to the health and recreation of the people of this great metropolis, that any beginning of encroachment ought to be resisted. If it was intended only to erect buildings on the site of the riding house, he should say that the riding house
1106
Mr. Huskisson
observed, that there could not be any danger of favouritism, or of a beneficial grant to the individual now, in any case of a demise from the crown. The surveyor general of crown lands, was by law obliged to report the value of the land to be demised, estimated by professional surveyors, upon oath, to the treasury. As to the reports which had gone abroad, they were idle rumours, for which there was no foundation. He certainly had heard some which had not even the colour of probability, such as that lord Ponsonby and other noble lords were amongst the individuals who were to have the privilege of erecting these buildings.
HOUSE OF LORDS.
Thursday, June 30, 1808.
[STAMP DUTIES BILL.]
On the motion for the third reading of this bill,
The Earl of Suffolk
rose to express his disapprobation of the principle of the bill, and of the hardships to which it would expose persons already labouring under a multiplicity of distresses. The noble earl instanced the case of some tenants of his own, upon whom he knew it would press with peculiar severity.
The Earl of Lauderdale
would not detain their lordships with a repetition of the objections to the principle of the bill, which he continued to consider as most iniquitous. He should then, however, in the most regular and public manner, enter his protest against it.
The Duke of Norfolk
did not rise to oppose the bill. Burdened as the country already was with a load of taxes, its situation was perhaps such as, under the present circumstances, to call for and justify some addition to that burden. His object in rising now was to avail himself of the privilege of a peer of parliament, and offer some advice to his majesty's ministers which the present posture of affairs suggested to his mind. He hoped it might not be deemed irregular or unparliamentary to offer that advice, and put a few questions to his majesty's government, at a moment when parliament was voting supplies for the current services of the year. In stating, however, his opinion to the house, it was by no means his wish to draw any answers from the ministers which they should not deem it perfectly proper and safe to make;
1107
1108
amende honorable
Lord Hawkesbury
gave full credit to the candid and circumspect manner in which, the noble duke had delivered his opinions upon points of such delicacy. The noble duke was perfectly regular in the mode he
1109
Lord Holland
still retained his objections to the bill, on which, however, he should
1110
The Duke of Norfolk
could by no means assent to a principle laid down by his noble friend; he meant the guaranteeing the integrity of the Spanish empire. He considered the Spanish possessions in South.
1111
[HYDE PARK.]
Earl Grosvenor
rose to call the attention of the house to certain rumours that had gone abroad, of an intention to erect a number of buildings, so as to obstruct the view of the park, which contributed so much to the pleasure and the health of the inhabitants of the metropolis, while it would materially injure the property of several individuals. He was at a loss what mode to adopt, in order to bring the matter under their lordships' consideration; but as it regarded the welfare of the public, he must think there was some mode or other of submitting it to the consideration of parliament.
The Lord Chancellor
and the earl of Lauderdale insisted that it was highly unparliamentary to interfere in the private concerns of the crown. The duke of Norfolk observed, that if the noble lord should hereafter contrive to bring the question before the house, he would pledge himself to prove that the public were more interested in the property of the crown than in the property of any individuals.
[CURATES' RESIDENCE BILL.]
Upon the order of the day for the third reading of this bill,
The Earl of Buckinghamshire
renewed his objections to the bill at some length.
Lord Harrowby
supported the bill upon the same grounds he had advanced upon a former debate.
The Lord Chancellor
expressed himself as desirous as any man could be to provide amply for every degree of the clergy, so as to enable them to maintain the respectability and dignity of their sacred character; but he was much afraid this bill would not answer the end which it proposed. He clearly foresaw it would be productive of numerous vexations, which, instead of promoting the interests of religion, would rather tend to injure them. When the Residence bill passed that house, it had been proposed by a short clause, to make a provision for curates; but that clause had been rejected, and he was perhaps as much to blame as any other person for the failure of that clause. Viewing, however, the present bill in the light he
1112
The Bishop of Rochester
, in consequence of this appeal, rose and said, that the diocese over which he presided was so small, as not to furnish a sufficient number of instances by which any criterion for judgment could be established. He could, however, assure their lordships, that this was a measure to which he had paid great attention, with a view of extending all the relief, comfort, and convenience possible to those meritorious and active labourers in the vineyard for whom provision was intended by the present measure; he regretted, however, that the bill in its present form was completely inadequate to accomplish the object which their lordships had in view, and, above all, that it could not have that immediate and beneficial effect expected by the liberal and humane right reverend prelate, who chiefly supported it. Their lordships must be aware that nothing could tend so effectually to the support and maintenance of the established religion as union amongst its clergy. This was an object so desirable, that every well wisher of the church must feel strongly inclined to encourage and support it; but surely the proper line to be followed was not that which the clauses of this bill went to introduce, under the sanction of the legislature. The curate and the rector would be set at variance in the first instance, and then their superiors were to be involved in the contest by the power of appeal; so that from beginning to end there would be nothing but one scene of confusion, distrust, and jealousy. He certainly was as liberally disposed as any man towards the inferior classes of the clergy, but until some effectual plan should be introduced for affording them complete relief, he was not inclined to disturb the present order of things.
The Bishops of Hereford and Carlisle
coincided with the right reverend prelate in his view of the subject.
The Bishop of London
regretted the necessity which he felt of dissenting from the right rev. prelates who had just delivered their opinions; but, painful as it was for him to be in that situation, he still felt it incumbent on him to give his feeble support to this bill, because he was convinced
1113
Lord Hawkesbury
supported the bill, and said, that the right hon. and learned gent. who brought in the bill for the residence of the clergy, had expressly declared that a better provision should be made for the curates, by a subsequent measure, and under that impression he had supported that bill. When that bill was brought into the house of lords, a clause to make a better provision for curates was then proposed, and the noble and learned lord was one of those who particularly objected to it; so that he thought the present bill ought to pass, in order that a proper provision might be made for so large and deserving a body of the clergy as the curates.
The Bishop of London
bore testimony to what had been urged by lord Hawkesbury by saying, that he had himself, when the Residence bill was before the house, proposed the clause in favour of the curates which had been alluded to; and he recollected, that the noble and learned lord had then particularly objected to it, on the ground that it should be the object of a separate bill. It had now been introduced in a separate bill, and he thought that bill should pass, for if it did not, he was afraid this would be the last time it would be attempted.
The Lord Chancellor
said, that thus called on, he must beg leave to say a few words. He acknowledged he had opposed the clause alluded to, and which had been brought in by the rev. prelate who spoke last, and he had already mentioned it this evening, and taken blame to himself on that account. He then very much wished the Residence bill should pass, and he and other noble lords who thought with him, were apprehensive that if that clause was tacked to it, the bill would be lost. He owned they had been mistaken, but that was the real cause of their objection. He observed his noble friend (lord Hawkesbury) smiled at what he said, but if he meant it in doubt of what he said, he would not bear it; for he had already expressly mentioned the circumstance before either the noble lord or the rev. prelate had alluded to the clause in question. The noble lord had said, that a right hon. and learned gent, who brought in the Residence bill, had pledged himself that a separate bill should be brought in for the better provision of curates. If any man could alter his sentiments on the present bill, it would
1114
The Archbishop of Canterbury
said that he was perfectly satisfied with the principle of the bill, but there were some of the clauses which he thought would be attended with injurious effects, and would introduce vexation and mischief; he should therefore vote that the bill be rejected.
The question being called for, the Bill was rejected without a division.
[MAYNOOTH COLLEGE]
On the question that the Appropriation act be read a third time,
Lord Holland
objected to it on the ground he had done yesterday, relative to the alteration in the grant to Maynooth College.
Lord Hawkesbury
, for the reasons he had before assigned, defended the alteration.
The Duke of Bedford
condemned the alteration in the grant.
The Earl of Lauderdale
termed it a narrow-minded, parsimonious saving; and was sorry to find, that after ministers had expressed their wishes that all terms of asperity against the Catholics should be avoided, as well as every thing that might tend to irritation among them, they should have coupled two such transactions, as the sending back to Ireland, loaded with honours, a man, who had in a most illiberal manner always shewn himself a bitter enemy of the Catholics, and this paltry saving of 3,500
l
[PHOTEST AGAINST THE SUGAR DISTILLATION
On the third reading of this Bill, the following Protest was entered upon the Journals of their lordships: viz.
"Dissentient, 1st. Because, when we consider that the price of wheat was not higher than 72
s
s
s
d
d
1115
LAUDERDALE,
SUFFOLK AND BERKS,
SELKIRK."
HOUSE OF COMMONS,
Thursday, June 30, 1808.
[CORPORAL PUNISHMENTS IN THE ARMY.]
Sir F. Burdett
rose, and shortly observed, that the object of his motion was, for the purpose of bringing regularly before the discussion of the house in the course of the next session, a matter which he conceived to be of the first importance, and
1116
The Secretary at War
rose to give the, motion his decided negative, and he trusted that the house would coincide with him in the vote he should give. He would not enter into much argument upon the subject, as the lion, baronet had not prefaced his motion with many observations; but he would appeal to the house and to the hon. baronet himself, whether any good consequences were likely to result from such a motion, at this particular time? For his part, he was convinced, that it could produce no good, and might produce great evil. On this ground, he would have opposed the motion, even if the return moved for had been a simple paper, which was already in the hands of all the members. Although he had already given his opinion on the subject when it was discussed incidentally, yet he should now repeat, that there was nothing which history made more evident than that a body of men subjected to military discipline, and governed by a particular law, were much more to be depended on in the field than those who were not so disciplined. If this, then, were to be considered as a general truth, he saw no reason why, at the present moment, and with such an enemy as we have now to contend with, that the discipline which had so long subsisted in the British army should now be shaken. It appeared to him that great evil might be produced from this question being agitated among the common soldiers. He was perfectly aware of the competence of the house to discuss this or any other subject which should be brought before them relative to the army, as it was competent to them to address his majesty on all such subjects; but, at the same time, it would be for the discretion of the house, and also for the discretion of the individual member who brought forward such motions, to consider whether they could be productive of any good, and whether, on the other hand, they were not likely to produce much mischief.—No member rising to speak,
1117
Sir Francis Burdett
rose, in reply to what had fallen from the right hon. the Secretary at War. He was extremely surprised at the manner in which his motion had been received by that right hon. gentleman, as it appeared to him, that a matter of greater importance, or more peculiarly important in the present times, could not possibly be submitted to the consideration of the house. He thought they would do ill by the country, and that they would do ill by its gallant army, if they were to leave out of their consideration entirely the sufferings to which that army, and the individuals that composed it, were daily exposed. If this consideration was at all times due to the army, it was more, peculiarly due to it at a time when it comprised so considerable a portion of our population, and when, by the institution of the Local Militia, every man in England was affected by the military code of the country.—He did not think that considerations of that nature should be answered by old trite observations, of military discipline being a necessary thing, and of disciplined troops being better than those that were undisciplined. Such general observations were not of weight enough to be entitled to put a stop to all discussion upon the subject. As to the objection of the great difficulty in obtaining such returns, he could not but conceive that those returns could be easily procured from every regiment in the service. As to the great danger that there was supposed to be in parliament meddling at all with the discipline of the army, he was enabled, in support of his own opinion, to cite the authority of Mr. Justice Blackstone, who in speaking of the Mutiny Act, said, "That the Mutiny Act was an act hastily penned, and he wished that it should be, some time or another, submitted to the deliberate consideration of parliament." It was not, therefore, extraordinary that he should view the subject in the same light that Blackstone viewed it, or that he should think that this was a lime peculiarly proper for such a consideration. When the whole population of the country were becoming military, and perhaps ought to become military, at such a time it was peculiarly necessary that the military code should be made as congenial to the feelings of the nation as was consistent with the proper ends of military discipline. He could not see what objection there was to producing information upon the subject, as the house would have afterwards the power
1118
1119
Lord Castlereagh
was surprised at the hon. baronet having conceived that this was a proper period to bring forward such a motion. He hardly knew how to argue against the hon. baronet, as their views upon almost every subject were so totally different, that there was scarcely a point of coincidence. He wondered, however, that if the hon. baronet felt the subject of so great importance, he should have slept over it until the session was just upon the close. If the returns could be made, and it appeared that punishments were frequent, that would not support the argument of the hon. baronet, as it would be a greater proof of the existence of offence than of the impropriety of the punishment. The motion of the hon. baronet, connected with the observations he had formerly made, did look like a settled and systematic intention to bring the military code of the country into disrepute. In the French code, to which he appeared to give so great a preference, the officers could, without any trial, inflict the punishment of death, upon any soldier whom he should conceive to have committed an offence that deserved it. When they, had such a power, corporal punishment might not be so necessary. If corporal punishment existed in our army, it was because by the English code no man's life or person could be touched or shaken without the decision of a competent tribunal. The hon. baronet had, however, found an opportunity to insinuate that punishments in the army depended on the caprice, folly, or passion of commanding officers, and to mention the name of an illustrious commander. He must have known, however, that no man could be punished in the army, but by the sentence of a court-martial, the members of which were upon their oaths. The house might therefore judge with what degree of liberality and candour it was that he drew his views, from what he had stated to have taken place in one particular regiment. He must also observe, that the regiments of
1120
Sir George Warrender
was of opinion, that the full rigour of the military code ought not to be applied to the local militia. But with respect to its application to the regular army he differed widely from the hon. baronet, as he did almost on everything he brought before the house. It was not only by the previous form of a court martial that the arbitrary infliction of punishment was guarded against, but by the inspection of the visiting general officers, who were to see the regimental returns of the courts martial, of the punishments that should have taken place, and of the degree and manner in which those punishments should have been executed; of all which particulars the commander in chief required particular reports to be made to him. The general officers were also instructed to inquire of the men, as they passed the companies, whether they had any grievance to complain of. With all these checks there could be no instance of wanton or capricious punishment. The use of the cane was entirely laid aside in consequence of the denunciation of his majesty's severe displeasure. He thought it necessary to state these facts, to prevent the public mind from receiving a false impression on a matter so important.
Lord Folkestone
supported the motion of the hon. baronet. He agreed entirely in the eulogium which was bestowed by a noble lord on the character of English soldiers; but he thought that very eulogium was an argument in favour of the motion, as it shewed that such men did not deserve to be subjected to more disgraceful or severe punishments, than were those in the other armies of the world. The noble lord, however, had advanced no reason against the motion of the hon. baronet,
1121
Mr. Windham
did not conceive that such return would enable the house to form a correct judgment on the subject. It appeared to him that the principal thing which was to protect the soldier from capricious punishment, was effected in this country by making a court-martial necessary before punishment could be inflicted. He thought that by the French code, the soldier was more exposed to capricious punishment, as he had not the benefit of a trial. He hoped that the evil would be corrected in a gradual manner; and he thought that it would be best effected by countenancing those officers who kept up the discipline of their regiments without making those punishments often necessary, and by discountenancing those who only preserved the discipline of their regiments by the frequency and severity of corporal punishments. He thought the feelings of the officers, and the fashion of the service, would do more to diminish these punishments, than could safely be done by the legislature.
Earl Temple
said, that his principal objection to the motion was, that it might at the present moment do harm, and that it could not do good. If the motion was agreed to at the close of the session, it would hold out hopes and expectations to
1122
Mr. Lockhart
was decidedly adverse to the production of such returns. They would be only giving to the house the groans of the sufferers, without giving the evidence upon which they received their sentences. Corporal punishment was not peculiar to the army, but might be inflicted by the sentence of the judges for various offences at the common law. A soldier had, in addition to the court-martial that tried him, the advantage of an appeal to the commander in chief, who might order a general court-martial, and he had actually known a case where a soldier had obtained a new trial upon such an appeal, and was acquitted.—The house then divided: For the motion 4; Against it 77.—Majority 73.
[HYDE PARK.]
Mr. Creevey
rose, in consequence of the notice he had given, for the purpose of bringing before the house the intended encroachments in Hyde Park. It would be unnecessary for him to endeavour to impress upon the house the great advantages which the population of this vast metropolis derived from having access to the three Parks. It was, therefore, a subject of considerable regret to him, to find there was a plan in contemplation for devoting a great part of Hyde Park to private edifices. It was a very ungracious thing in any officer to recommend to his majesty that certain parts of it should be granted out for such purposes. He would not deny that the king had the right of doing so; but when it was considered that within these few years the public had paid no less than 71,000
l
1123
Mr. Hanbury Tracey
seconded the motion. He censured the plan of curtailing Hyde Park; but if the measure was persevered in, he wished the chancellor of the exchequer would include him among those to whom lots were to be given.
The Chancellor of the Exchequer
observed, that no ground had been laid for the motion, and that it would ill become the house to interpose between his majesty and the exercise of one of his undoubted rights. It was to be presumed that on this occasion he would act with the same beneficence and conscientious regard to the interests and convenience of his subjects that had marked the whole of his reign. There was no reason to suppose his majesty would make any improper grants. The plan, in fact, had not yet been submitted to him. It was only a few days ago that it was laid before the Treasury. With what propriety, therefore, in this stage of the business, could the hon. member call upon the house to interfere? There was no intention to convert the Park into a town, and for any purposes of sordid gain to turn that which was now used for recreation into streets. Such a project would meet, and deservedly, with general reprobation. But he could not
1124
Mr. Windham
contended, that this was a subject, of all others, fit for the interposition of the house, and that this was precisely the moment when it should interpose. The plan, it appeared, was almost completely arranged, and if the house did not address his majesty now, they would have no other opportunity of doing so. By the time they next met, the houses probably would be half built, or, at least, so far advanced as to render it impossible to discontinue the plan. Against the plan he must enter his protest. He was not quite sure that his majesty possessed the right of disposing of the park in the way proposed. It would be a satisfaction to him to know how the crown and the public stood in that respect, and whether it had not given up the right which it was now intended to assert, in consequence of the payment from the Consolidated Fund. It was idle to suppose the plan would not go on if it were once begun, and that it would be limited to eight houses. These, houses would go on, co-operating with other houses, until it would be no longer a park. Indeed, it could scarcely be called so at present, for it was almost invested with houses. On one side there was Knightsbridge, grown into a considerable town; on another, Kensington. There was also a great town starting up on the northern side. Now, if in addition to these a number of houses should be erected, the power of vegetation would be completely destroyed. The park would no longer be that scene of health and recreation it formerly was. It was a saying of lord Chatham, that the parks were the lungs of London. He could devise no means more effectual for the destruction of these lungs than the proposed plan. The great increase of the metropolis might be attributed to the desire which every man felt to get as it were into the country; to go a little further towards it than his neighbour.
1125
Mr. Sheridan
said, that agreeing as he did in every word which fell from his right hon. friend, he would only trouble the house with a few words. It was well known that he was extremely anxious to promote the improvement of the metropolis, and particularly of the city of Westminster; but in all the plans which he had supported and recommended in that view, it was a principle with him not to crib one inch from any of the parks. He could not conceive upon what grounds it was, that the surveyor of the crown lands supposed his majesty would give his concurrence to so ridiculous and unjust a plan, as that in contemplation. The park was already sufficiently encroached upon. Hamilton-place was both an encroachment and a nuisance. He had been to visit it that morning, and such a gibbet-like erection he never saw. It was all angles and projections. There was also that heavy lump, Bathurst House, which he could compare to nothing but a tub of brick. The plan, he understood, was to erect a
1126
Mr. Creevey
professed his willingness to withdraw his motion upon the assurance suggested by his right hon. friend.
The Chancellor of the Exchequer
said, that consistently with his duty, and the view he took of the subject, he would give no such assurance.
Mr. Huskisson
said, that so far from the plan being completely arranged, he had only heard of it about a week ago.
A division then took place: Ayes 23;Noes 36.—Majority against the motion 13.
HOUSE OF LORDS.
Friday, July 1, 1808.
[ORDERS IN COUNCIL.]
Lord Holland
wished to be informed whether any engagement had yet been entered into with Sweden, to give effect on their part to the Orders in Council. A noble friend of his (lord Grenville) had formerly given notice of a motion to address his majesty to revoke those Orders, but had been induced to withdraw it in consequence of the negociations that were pending. Although
1127
Lord Hawkesbury
said, with respect to Sweden, that the most satisfactory assurances had been received from the court of Stockholm, of the disposition of that
1128
The Earl of Lauderdale
adverted to a former statement of the noble secretary of state, with respect to the disposition of the court of Stockholm to give effect to the system adopted in the Orders in Council, and observed, that it might have been expected by this time that some engagement would have been entered into, or that some treaty would have been signed, which might have been laid on the table of the house, and which would have been a better proof of the dispositions of that court.
1129
Lord Holland
observed, that the noble secretary of state appeared to have misconceived a part of what he had said with respect to the operation of the Orders in Council on our intercourse with Spain. Spain, in her present anomalous state, was not, it was true, an enemy; but still she could not be considered as a neutral, and thus, under the operations of the Orders in Council, her ports would be blockaded with respect to the rest of the world. What he was therefore anxious to learn from ministers was, whether they intended to deal, upon this occasion, in the sale of licences, which he considered a narrow and unwise policy; and whether they intended to revoke those Orders as far as they regarded the ports of Spain.
The Earl of Lauderdale
adverted to the document upon the table, containing a statement of the exports and imports at the port of London for the quarter ending the 5th of April 1808, to shew the decrease, compared with the corresponding quarters of 1807; the exports of British manufactures in the latter being 5,100,000
l
l
Lord Hawkesbury
observed, that the amount of the exports and imports was no criterion in itself; the question was, were they greater or less than they would have been if the measure of the Orders in Council had not been resorted to? With respect to what had been said by the noble lord (Holland), he now clearly understood the object of that noble lord to be to ascertain, whether it was the intention of ministers to revoke the Orders in Council so far as regarded the ports of Spain? He could only state, that if the noble lord would suspend his curiosity for a few days, he would find that ministers had not omitted the consideration of this part of
1130
The Earl of Darnley
expressed a hope that the narrow policy of taking possession of a few ships, would not be the only stimulus to induce ministers to afford assistance to Spain. He considered the cause of the Spaniards entitled to all the aid and protection this country could afford.
Lord Holland
expressed himself satisfied with the explanation given by the noble secretary of state.
HOUSE OF COMMONS.
Saturday, July 2, 1808.
[SUGAR DISTILLATION.]
The Sugar Distillery bill was brought from the lords, with an amendment, to which their lordships desired the concurrence of the commons.
Mr. R. Dundas
[CHAIRMAN OF WAYS AND MEANS.]
The Chancellor of the Exchequer
having moved the usual grants to the officers of the house, &c. and among others the sum of 1200
l
Mr. Biddulph
took occasion to repeat the objections he had more than once urged to this grant, which was equal to the allowance made to the commissioners of customs and excise. The duty to be performed by these gentlemen was constant, whereas the labour of the chairman of the committees of ways and means ceased with the session of parliament; which it was also his duty to attend, independantly of any emolument. If, therefore, 1200
l
1131
[BOARD OF AGRICULTURE.]
Sir John Sinclair
stated, that the Board of Agriculture had been engaged for some time in collecting Reports of all the different parts of the country, which were to be made the ground work of one general report, exhibiting a complete detail of the internal state of agriculture of the kingdom. This, it must be admitted, was a very important object, and one of great public utility. To complete this object, only 1500
l
l
[PRISONS IN IRELAND.]
Mr. Sheridan
said he should have felt it to be his duty to address the house at considerable length on this subject, did he not understand that the inquiry which it was his intention to propose, would not meet with any opposition. He should, therefore, abstain from any of those details which if entered into could not fail to disgust the feelings of the house, and might provoke irritation among those who were more immediately the objects of suffering. He was satisfied that an inquiry into the evils complained of would do ministers credit, and he would rather have seen them enter into it voluntarily, than urged on to the investigation. In bringing forward the present question, he declared that he was actuated solely by that feeling which he hoped hitherto had characterized, and should continue to characterize, his parliamentary conduct; a consciousness of the propriety, if not of the necessity, of what he proposed, and an ardent desire to discharge his duty to the public. The right hon. gent. then proceeded to quote the reports of the inspector-genera of prisons in Ireland. He remarked that many of the evils which now existed had been enumerated in the report
1132
General Mathew seconded the motion.
The Chancellor of the Exchequer
regretted that the motion was deferred until a period when those members could not be present who were the best informed upon the subject. Although he should not oppose the motion, he trusted he should not be supposed to acquiesce in the right hon. gent's
1133
ex parte
Mr. W. Pole
wished that the right hon. gent. had brought forward his motion when the Irish members were present, convinced as he was (from his own local knowledge) that those members would have declared the futility of the statements that had been made. He examined some of the reports, and detected several misrepresentations that existed in them. He supported the motion, because it could do no harm, and might do much good.
Mr. Beresford
defended the character of Dr. Trevor, who was generally esteemed as a man of great humanity and kindness. He had heard the unfortunate Emmett acknowledge this at the scaffold in the warmest terms.
Mr. Whitbread
thought the public highly indebted to his right hon. friend for the institution of an inquiry, from which, in his opinion, a great deal of good would probably result.
Colonel Vereker
defended the magistrates of the county of Galway, from any share in the imputation attempted to be thrown on the whole country.
Mr. Peter Moore
would only make an observation or two on what had been said on the other side, and particularly by the right hon. the chancellor of the exchequer, with respect to an investigation having been made into these alleged grievances, by the authority of lord Hardwicke as lord lieutenant of Ireland, the report of which he stated to have been laid before this house and printed in 1805. Mr. Moore said, that being intent on obtaining all possible information, he regularly watched all the documents laid before this house for that purpose; and that having given the subject of these alleged grievances his earnest attention, it was almost impossible that, such an important document as the report in question could have escaped him, had it ever been before the house; as from the description given by the right hon. gent., it went to preclude all further inquiry into the claims of justice, so forcibly stated in the various petitions before
1134
[DISMISSAL OF THE LATE MR. DALRYMPLE.]
Mr. R. Ward
again alluded to the discussion which had taken place on a former night as to the causes of the dis-
1135
Mr. Horner
said, he had taken some part in the conversation on this subject on a former night. He had since been shewn the correspondence on the subject, and he was satisfied that Mr. Dalrymple had exhibited a degree of contumacy which was probably inconsistent with the performance of his duties to the admiralty. He was of opinion, however, that if the board had exhibited to that respectable gentleman the greatest possible degree of liberality and indulgence, it was nothing but what his long and meritorous services justly entitled him to.
Mr. W. Pole
said, that considering the manner in which he had formerly been alluded to, when a noble lord, not then present, had brought the subject of the removal of Mr. Dalrymple before the house, and the peculiar situation in which he stood respecting that transaction, he trusted he might be permitted to give some explanation of what had passed. He said he owed it to the public, to the admiralty, and to himself, to state the circumstances which had led to Mr. Dalrymple's removal: it would give him extreme pain to be under the necessity of bringing anything before the house or the public that could in any degree tend to create uneasiness to the friends of Mr. Dalrymple, or could at all affect the memory of that respectable gentleman. Mr. Pole said, he understood the hon. gent. to have expressed himself to be satisfied, that under the circumstances of the case, as he found them in the papers which had been prepared, and had been shewn to the hon. gent, by his hon. friend (Mr. Ward), the board of admiralty could not do otherwise than dismiss Mr. Dalrymple. He understood the hon. gent, to say, that the duty the admiralty owed to the public, certainly justified them completely in the step they had taken. He seemed to admit that they had treated Mr. Dalrymple with justice. But Mr. Pole said, he owned it astonished him to hear the hon. gent, insinuate, that more lenity might have been shewn, and that he should have been better pleased if more indulgence and liberality had been shewn him.
Mr. Horner
rose and said the hon. gent. had quite misunderstood him, he had meant no such insinuation, what he had said was in quite another view.
1136
Mr. W. Pole
resumed: he said he was extremely glad to find that he had misunderstood the hon. gent. He certainly thought he had meant such an insinuation. He then begged permission of the house to state the circumstances which led to Mr. Dalrymple's removal; that about the month of Nov. last, the first lord of the admiralty, upon ascertaining that his majesty's fleets were not supplied with charts upon any regular and settled principle, and considering that great inconvenience had arisen from the king's ships in many parts of the world being unfurnished with proper charts for their guidance, determined to lay down a system by which in future all his majesty's ships in every part of the world should be supplied with the best charts existing for the station to which they might belong; and in order to effect this most desirable and important object, the first lord of the admiralty had called upon the board to issue their orders to the hydrographer to prepare a proper selection. Mr. Dalrymple, in return to this order, had stated that he was incompetent to make the selection, from not having a local knowledge of many seas, and for a variety of other reasons; and he recommended that in order to carry the first lord's plan into execution, a committee of ten officers should be appointed to select and arrange the charts proper to be issued to the navy. From the moment however that this committee, as recommended by Mr. Dalrymple, was appointed, it became impossible for them to proceed in the performance of their duty. It had fallen to his lot, as it was a part of his duty, to examine into the state of the hydrographer's office; it was impossible to describe the confusion in which he found it; from Mr. Dalrymple's infirmities, it could not be otherwise. He wished at all times, as he always had done, to speak of that venerable and respectable gentleman, with every possible degree of tenderness and attention, with all the consideration due to his talents, to his great acquirements and his eminent services. But it was impossible not to admit, that the state of his office was such, as to prevent all chance of proceeding with the arrangements necessary for the good of the service under his management. The house would perceive the truth of this remark, when he informed them, that Mr. Dalrymple's habits were such, that he seldom or never came to his office before three o'clock, and that the office of the hydrographer closed at
1137
1138
Mr. Horner
repeated what he had formerly stated. He imputed no blame, to the admiralty board for dismissing Mr. Dalrymple: as he had already said, he should have been better pleased, if they had pursued their indulgence to the utmost degree to which it could be carried, which, in his opinion, they might have done on account of the past and meritorious services of that very eminent and respectable man.
HOUSE OF LORDS.
Monday, July 4, 1808.
[SPAIN.]
The Earl of Suffolk
rose to call the attention of the house to the critical situation in which we now stood with respect to Spain. It was generally understood that a large armament was to be sent to assist the patriotic exertions of that nation in resisting the tyranny that would oppress its liberty, and in enabling it to assert its independence. Who was to command that expedition? Its fate might, perhaps, be closely connected with the auspices and command under which it was to serve. He did not know that we had now any responsible minister. In former administrations Mr. Pitt, lord Sidmouth, and latterly lord Grenville, stood forward
1139
[THE LORDS COMMISSIONERS' SPEECH.]
About a quarter before four the archbishop of Canterbury, the lord chancellor, the lord president of the council, the lord privy seal, and the duke of Montrose, took their seats as his majesty's commissioners. Mr. Quarme, the deputy usher of the black rod, was sent to the house of commons to desire their attendance. The Speaker, and a considerable number of members, shortly afterwards came to the bar. A commission for giving the royal assent to certain bills was read by the clerk, by virtue of which the royal assent was given to several bills. After which,
The Lord Chancellor
, in his majesty's name, delivered the following Speech.
1140
1141
HOUSE OF COMMONS.
Monday, July 4, 1808.
[SPAIN.]
Mr. Whitbread
began by observing, that he had with considerable anxiety waited till the last moment before the present session terminated, in the hope that his majesty's ministers would see the propriety of adopting some mode whereby the sense of that house could be obtained on a subject of such universal interest as that of the present transactions in Spain. He thought that nothing was more to be desired than a distinct expression of the sentiment of that house upon a subject of such importance, and he could not help expressing his surprise that no communication had been made to the house by his majesty's ministers, as it was upon such a communication that the declaration and the sentiments of that house could best be founded. When this subject was submitted to their consideration on a recent occasion by his right hon. friend (Mr. Sheridan), he had felt it to be his duty frankly to state his objections to the impropriety and inexpediency of then agitating it, as he was apprehensive that the discussion at that time might have prematurely committed the whole Spanish nation with France;
1142
Lord Castlereagh
said, that upon a recent occasion, when the present subject was brought before the consideration of the house, he had felt it his painful duty to express his disapprobation of the tone and manner in which the hon. gent, had thought fit to comment on certain circumstances, the recapitulation of which could not have been attended with any good consequences; it now, however, gave him considerable pleasure, that the grateful task had devolved to him of expressing his complete coincidence in the feelings manifested by the hon. gent. as to the issue of the great and glorious struggle in which the Spanish people were at present engaged. He differed, however, from the hon. gent, as to the justice of the animadversions in which he had indulged on his
1143
Mr. Whitbread
observed, in explanation, that the turn which the noble lord had been pleased to give to what he had said on a late occasion, when the same subject en a former evening was brought before the house, must be imputed solely to a feeling of political animosity. On that occasion, he had disapproved of the motion brought forward by his right hon. friend. In that feeling of disapprobation he had it in his power to plead the authority of the chancellor of the exchequer, though neither of the principal secretaries of state in that house had thought the agitation of the subject at that time would have been attended with any improper consequences.
Lord Castlereagh
, in explanation, denied
1144
Mr. Wilberforce
confessed that the sentiments he felt on this great subject were very similar to those of the hon. gent. opposite. He could not avoid expressing his concern that no communication had been made to parliament, in order that a proper opportunity might have been afforded of giving a sort of authoritative publicity to the unanimous feeling of the nation, that all that England could do for Spain and her cause, should be done with equal zeal, promptitude, and disinterestedness; and to shew to Spain, and to the world, our generous sympathy in her sufferings, our anxious interest in her struggles, and our hearty and undivided wishes for her complete success. And he was at the same time particularly anxious that Spain should be satisfied, that whatever means we should resort to, to second her efforts, were not the result of any narrow self-consulting policy, any cold and interested speculation, but that they were the spontaneous effusions of British sympathy in the cause of that freedom and independence Britons valued beyond their lives; the cause of Spain was the cause of all those who, from enjoying, knew how to value liberty. But he was particularly anxious that the Spaniards should not be furnished with the slightest pretence to believe, that because of the state of hostility which had but recently terminated between the two countries, there still lurked in the breasts of Englishmen any hostile disposition towards that country; and above all, it was desirable that the Spaniards should have good reason to confide in our assistance, and not distrust the manner of it, or question the motives that occasioned it; every possible means should be resorted to, to convince them that, at such a crisis, we were not base enough to avail ourselves of their difficulty and danger, in order ultimately to render their noble efforts subservient to our own interests; and he could not but confess, that he thought an unanimous vote of that house to that effect would have materially contributed to the confirmation of such a disavowal on our part. But there was some consolation in reflecting that, though this vote had not been called for, the feeling
1145
1146
[A List of the Public Acts passed during the Session, will be found at p. Ixvii. of the Appendix.]
APPENDIX.
APPENDIX TO THE PARLIAMENTARY DEBATES.
VOL. XI.
FINANCE ACCOUNTS OF GREAT BRITAIN,
FOR THE YEAR ENDED FIFTH OF JANUARY, 1808.
CLASS
I. PUBLIC INCOME.
II. CONSOLIDATED FUND.
III. ARREARS AND BALANCES.
IV. TRADE AND NAVIGATION.
CLASS
V. PUBLIC EXPENDITURE.
VI. PUBLIC FUNDED DEBT.
VII. UNFUNDED DEBT.
VIII. DISPOSITION OF GRANTS.
I.—PUBLIC INCOME.
HEADS OF REVENURE.
Gross Revenue.
Net Produce.
Payments into Exchequer.
ORDINARY REVENUES.
Permanent and Annual Taxes.
£.
s.
d.
£
s.
d.
£.
s.
d.
Customs
9,573,060
6
3
7,462,380
4
10¾
6,476,942
6
4
Excise
19,621,076
15
9
17,896,145
14
2
17,575,6S3
0
0
Stamps
4,543,971
17
5½
4,458,738
14
0¾
4,274,555
5
9
Land and Assessed Taxes
6,909,190
12
9¾
7,073,530
10
8¾
6,384,750
14
1¼
Post Office
1,493,490
11
9
1,277,533
11
4½
1,082,000
0
0
1
s.
£.
61,057
2
1
62,685
5
8
60,544
6
1½
6
d.
£.
72,207
12
2¼
71,353
0
5¼
71,352
0
0
Hackney Coaches
28,751
15
0
26,455
2
5½
26,084
0
0
Hawkers and Pedlars
13,231
0
4
10,325
9
5
9,950
0
0
Total Permanent and Annual Duties
42,316,037
13
7½
38,339,152
13
2½
35,961,861
12
3¾
Small Branches of the Hereditary Revenue.
Hanaper 2,000
0
0
Alienation Fines
8,088
13
4
8,274
2
9
2,634
10
8
Post Fines
963
7
5½
5,004
0
1½
-
-
-
Seizures
2,645
16
1
2,645
16
1
2,645
16
1
Compositions
2
0
0
2
0
0
2
0
0
Proffers
550
3
7
550
3
7
550
3
7
Crown Lands
45,510
1
10
74,946
12
1
966
13
4
Extraordinary Resources.
War Taxes.
Customs
3,065,904
14
2½
2,730,792
14
6½
2,730,702
14
6½
Excise
6,320,553
17
11¾
6,273,570
18
10½
6,232,543
0
0
Property Tax
10,131,344
7
3¾
9,864,189
4
10
9,864,189
4
10
Arrears of Income Duty
23,697
16
9¾
23,072
19
0
23,072
19
0
Arrears of Taxes collected under the Aid and Contribution Act
2,966
15
9½
2,888
11
2¼
2,838
11
2¼
Lottery, Net Profit—one-third for Ireland
797,500
0
0
774,694
11
0
774,694
11
0
Monies paid on Account of the Interest of Loans raised for the Service of Ireland
1,967,677
14
0
1,967,677
14
0
1,967,677
14
0
On Account of the Commissioners, appointed by Act 35 Geo. III. for issuing Exchequer Bills for Grenada
33,800
0
0
33,800
0
0
33,800
0
0
Fees of Regulated Exchequer Offices
40,545
0
2
40,545
0
2
40,545
0
2
Interest on Stock transferred by Instalments for the Redemption of the Land Tax
5,000
0
0
5,000
0
0
5,000
0
0
Monies paid on Account of the Surplus Revenue of the Isle of Man
2,210
11
0
2,210
11
0
2,210
1
0
Imprest Money repaid by Public Accountants
33,442
7
8¼
33,442
7
8¼
33,442
7
8¼
Other monies paid to the Public
6,954
12
2
0,954
12
2
6,954
12
2
Total, independent of Loans
64,805,395
13
0¼
60,189,414
12
3½
57,688,472
1
6¾
Loans paid into the Exchequer, including
£.
15,257,211
19
3
15,257,211
19
3
15,257,211
9
3
GRAND TOTAL
80,062,607
12
3¼
75,446,626
11
6
72,945,684
0
9¾
II.—CONSOLIDATED FUND.
INCOME.
CHARGE.
Actual Payments out of the Consolidated Fund, in the Year ended 5th January 1808.
Future Annual Charge upon the Consolidated Fund, as it stood on 5th January 1803.
£.
s.
d.
£.
s.
d.
£.
s.
d.
Net Produce of the Customs
3,142,441
6
1½
Charge on Account of the Public Debt
24,744,158
19
10¼
24,234,405
19
2¾
Excise
14,367,912
0
0
CIVIL LIST.—His Majesty's Household
398,000
0
0
898,000
0
0
Stamps
3,055,7S1
9
5
His Majesty's Household per 44 Geo. 3.
60,000
0
0
60,000
0
0
Incidents
5,929,671
16
1¾
COURTS OF JUSTICE.—Judges of England and Wales, in Augmentation of their Salaries
Surplus of Sugar, Malt, & Tobacco, annually granted
2,326,391
19
9½
13,050
0
0
13,050
0
0
Arrears of Annual Malt, 1805
2,866
3
10
Aaron Graham, Esq. Inspector of the temporary Places of Confinement of Felons, &c.
Land Tax, Anno 1778,9,1800,1,2,3,4,5,6,7
1,065,346
1
4
350
0
0
Uncertain.
Pensions, Anno 1799, 1800,1,2,3,4,5,6,7
150,315
7
6½
W. Baldwin, Esq. Receiver of the 7 Police Offices
16,139
14
11¼
Income Duly, Anno 1799, 1800, 1801
23,072
19
0
Patrick Colquhoun, Esq. Receiver of the 7 Thames Police Office
7,168
6
10
Arrears of Assessed Taxes
2,888
11
2¼
John Bedford, Esq. Chief Justice of the Admiralty Court in the Island of Barbadoes
2,000
0
0
2,000
0
0
Money reserved on account of Nominees appointed by the Lords of the Treasury, in Tontine Ann. 1789
24,065
4
11½
Henry Morton Dyer, Esq. Chief Justice of the Admiralty Court in the Island of Bahamas
2,000
0
0
2,000
0
0
Monies paid into the Treasury by divers Persons, being sundry Balances due to the Public
Alexander Croke, Esq. Chief Justice of the Admiralty Court in the Island of America
2,000
0
0
2,000
0
0
85,234
15
1¾
John Sewell, Esq. Chief Justice of the Admiralty Court in the Island of Malta
2,000
0
0
2,000
0
0
Imprest Monies repaid by various
11,717
15
10½
Henry John Hinchliffee, Esq. Chief Justice of the Admiralty Court in the Island of Jamaica
2,000
0
0
2,000
0
0
Money paid by Messrs. Puget and Bainbridge, for Interest, Management, and 1
£.
William Territt, Esq. Chief Justice of the Admiralty Court in the Island of Bermudas
2,000
0
0
2,000
0
0
Sheriffs of England and Wales
4,000
0
0
4,000
0
0
Deficiencies of Judges Salaries
4,850
15
5
Uncertain.
912,514
14
8
MINT.—Master of his Majesty's Mint in England
6,900
0
0
13,800
0
0
MINT.—Master of his Majesty's Mint in Scotland
1,200
0
0
1,200
0
0
Total Income of the Consolidated Fund, applicable towards paying the Charge existing at 5th Jan. 1803
Receiver of the Fees in the Office of the Mint
3,476
2
0
Uncertain
31,120,280
5
0¼
Salaries and Allowances
12,455
16
0
7,950
0
0
Parliamentary Pensions
364,624
11
9¾
312,909
14
10
DUTIES pro Anno 1803.
BOUNTIES.—For the Growth of Hemp and Flax
2,956
13
8
2,956
13
8
Surplus of Duty on Receipts, 1803, per Act 43 Geo. 3. c. 126
60,053
10
3
The Commissioners of the Northern Lighthouses, for building Bell Rock Lighthouse
15,000
0
0
Uncertain.
For the Improvement of the Port of London
180,445
19
1
Reserved out of Consolidated Customs, per Act 43 Geo. 3. c. 68. from July 1803, at
£.
250,000
0
0
Total Charge upon the Consolidated Fund created prior to 5th Jan. 1803, as it stood in the Year ended 5th Jan. 1808
£.
26,338,320
19
7¾
25,552,322
7
8¾
Money paid by Messrs. Puget and Bainbridge, for Interest, Management, and
£.
£.
£.
136,468
17
3
DEBT incurred in respect of
£.
Total Income of Duties pro Anno 1803
446,522
7
6
819,338
8
1
819,338
8
1
DUTIES pro Anno 1804.
DEBT incurred in respect of
£.
Surplus of Consolidated Stamp Duties, per Act 44 Geo. 3. c. 98. to commence from Oct. 10, 1804
1,093,582
3
4
Interest, &c. on Loan for the service of Ireland
331,140
13
5
Annuities on
£.
Total Income of Duties pro Anno 1804
1,424,722
16
9
362,050
10
0
362,050
10
0
DUTIES pro Anno 1805.
Annuities on
£.
441,525
0
0
441,525
0
0
Duty on Goods, Anno 1805
239,628
6
7½
1 per Cent on the above Sums payable to the Commissioners for the Reduction of the National Debt
Duty on Legacies
65,138
2
9
263,900
0
0
263,900
0
0
Additional Duty on the Postage of Letters, imposed per Act 45 Geo. 3. c. 11.
160,149
15
10¼
Annuities on
£.
s.
d.
82,727
0
1
82,727
0
1
Duties on Salt, Auctions, Bricks and Tiles, Coffee, Cyder and Perry, Glass, Vinegar, and Wire
689,099
0
0
Interest, &c. on Loan for the Service of Ireland
277,741
7
0
Total Income of Duties pro Anno 1805
1,431,756
12
2¾
1 per Cent. on the above Sum, payable as above
27,168
2
11
27,168
2
11
DUTIES pro Anno 1806.
Total Charge for Debt incurred in the Year 1804
1,177,370
13
0
1,177,370
13
0
Brought from Consolidated Excise, per Act 43 G. 3.
Wine, Anno 1803
275,123
0
0
Wine, Anno 1804
179,737
0
0
Debt incurred in respect of
£.
Tea Anno 1804
32,433
0
0
1,721,761
14
9½
1,721,761
14
9½
£
335,968
7
9
DEBT incurred in respect of
£.
1,545,039
1
7
1,342,940
0
0
Interest, &c. on Loan for the Service of Ireland
155,659
7
11
Total Income of Duties pro Anno 1806
978,920
15
8
DEBT incurred in respect of
£.
1,041,907
15
8¾
1,436,152
5
5
DUTIES pro Anno 1807.
Total Charge for Debt, incurred prior to the Year 1803
26,338,320
19
7¼
25,552,322
7
8¾
Brought from War Taxes, to pay Charges on Loan, per Act 47 Geo. 3. c. 55.
Total Charge for Debt, incurred prior to the Year 1803
819,338
8
1
819,338
8
1
926,697
17
0
Total Charge for Debt, incurred prior to the Year 1804
1,177,370
13
0
1,177,370
13
0
Interest, &c. on Loan for the Service of Ireland
154,152
13
9
Total Charge for Debt, incurred prior to the Year 1805
1,721,761
14
9½
1,721,761
14
9½
Total Charge for Debt, incurred prior to the Year 1806
1,545,039
1
7
1,342,940
0
0
Total Income of Duties, pro Anno 1807
1,080,850
10
9
Total Income of Duties, at 5th Jan. 1803
31,120,280
5
0¼
Total Charge upon the Consolidated Fund in the Year ending the 5th January 1808
32,643,738
12
9½
32,049,885
9
0¼
Total Income of Duties, pro Anno 1803
446,522
7
6
Total Income of Duties, pro Anno 1804
1,424,722
16
9
Total Income of Duties, pro Anno 1805
1,431,756
12
2¾
Total Income of Duties, pro Anno 1806
978,920
15
8
Total Income of Consolidated Fund in the Year ending 5th January 1808
36,483,053
7
11
An Account of the Net Produce of all the
of
In the YEARS ended
5th January 1807.
5th January 1808.
Customs.
£.
s.
d.
£.
s.
d.
Consolidated, after reserving
£.
4,005,965
2
0¼
3,107,365
11
10
Quarantine Duty
15,093
2
4
9,605
19
10
£.
6,790
17
3½
5,053
15
5½
Canal and Dock Duty
35,749
3
0½
31,469
14
5½
Excise.
Consolidated, after reserving the Duties appropriated by Acts 45 & 46 Geo. III. and carried to Duties 1805/6
13,829,170
14
3
14,367,912
0
0
Stamps.
Reserved out of Consolidated Duties,
£.
s.
3,017,585
17
8
3,017,410
7
9
Compositions for Stamps, per Bank of England
32,000
0
0
32,000
0
0
Licences for selling Lottery Tickets
8,292
1
7
6,371
1
8
Incidents.
Letter Money
924,666
13
4
924,666
13
4
Arrears of Duties repealed by Act 43 Geo. 3. c. 161.
Houses and Windows
32,460
7
2½
24,067
8
0½
Inhabited Houses
16,720
18
2¼
12,360
18
4¾
Horses for Riding
20,702
19
0¼
21,137
5
6½
Horses for Husbandry
22,279
8
4½
14,085
12
8½
Male Servants
16,134
15
5½
9,824
9
1½
Carriages
28,558
6
10¾
18,904
18
7¾
Dogs
14,097
15
9
8,510
19
9
£.
7
11
7¾
—
14
0
£.
50
0
0
310
4
0¾
Clocks and Watches
845
1
5
—
Hawkers and Pedlars
11,635
0
0
9,300
0
0
Hackney Coaches and Chairs
25,857
0
0
27,564
0
0
6
d.
£
63,279
0
0
71,352
0
0
1
s.
£
54,968
12
4
60,544
6
1
Seizures
15,788
0
6
2,645
16
1
Proffers
620
19
0
550
3
7
Compositions
1
16
8
2
0
0
Rent of Alum Mines
960
0
0
960
0
0
Rent of a Lighthouse
6
13
4
6
13
4
Alienation Duty
9,000
3
4
2,634
10
8
First Fruits of the Clergy
4,156
10
0
—
Tenths Fruits of the Clergy
9,834
17
10
—
Fines and Forfeitures
681
9
8
902
1
0
Arrears of
Female Servants, Anno 1785
35
13
2
—
Carts
—
18
—
Hair Powder Certifices, 1795
12,463
16
1
4,983
4
0¼
Horse Dealers Licences, 1796
2,089
1
5
1,624
6
10
Armorial Bearings 1798
6,314
8
7
4,499
18
9¾
By Acts 43 Geo. III. cap. 68.
Hair Powder Certificates
43,444
8
3½
55,980
19
10½
Horse Dealers Licences
5,747
0
6
8,857
8
8
Armorial Bearings
21,753
5
2
28,291
11
9½
Reserved out of Houses and Windows, by Act 43 Geo. III. cap. 161. at
£.
1,903,310
9
1
1,903,054
14
9
Inhabited Houses
584,860
2
8
671,320
7
1¾
Horses for Riding
583,986
5
4½
671,285
6
8
Horses for Husbandry, and Mules
501,667
10
2
522,322
4
10½
Male Servants
338,435
18
11¾
351,720
7
5¾
Carriages
302,349
3
2
363,826
4
4½
Dogs
112,628
5
0¾
134,290
13
11
Carried forward
£
26,643,046
5
10¼
26,509,577
12
6¾
taken for Two Years, ending respectively
th January
and
th January
In the YEARS ended
5th January 1807.
5th January 1808.
£.
s.
d.
£.
s.
d.
Brought forward
26,643,046
5
10¼
26,509,577
12
6¾
DUTIES pro Anno 1803.
Brought from Consolidated Customs, after reserving as directed by 43 Geo. III. cap. 68
250,000
0
0
250,000
0
0
Surplus of Duty on Receipts, Anno 1803, after reserving as directed by Act 43 Geo. III. cap. 126.
59,878
0
4
60,053
10
3
Surplus of Duty on Houses and Windows, Anno 1804, after reserving as directed by Act 43 Geo. III. cap. 161
—
—
DUTIES pro Anno 1804.
26,952,924
6
2¼
26,819,631
2
9¾
Surplus of Consolidated Stamp Duties, after reserving as directed by Act 44 Geo. III. cap. 98
975,270
17
8
1,093,582
3
4
27,928,195
3
10¼
27,913,213
6
1¾
DUTIES pro Anno 1805.
Taken from Consolidated Letter Money, the estimated Amount of the Additional Duty on Postage of Letters, imposed by Act 45 Geo. III. cap. 11
176,333
6
8
160,149
15
10¾
Goods, &c. Anno 1805
308,788
15
2¼
239,628
6
7½
Legacies
39,489
10
8
65,138
2
9
DUTIES taken out of the Consolidated Excise, by Act 45 Geo. III.
Salt
463,814
19
1
470,871
0
0
Auctions
35,392
0
0
39,739
0
0
Bricks and Tiles
40,464
0
0
36,700
0
0
Coffee
31,558
0
0
32,618
0
0
Cyder and Perry
5,544
6
8
12,328
0
0
Glass
67,721
0
0
78,172
0
0
Vinegar
12,749
13
4
13,395
0
0
Wire
5,791
3
1
5,276
0
0
29,115,841
18
6½
29,067,228
11
4½
DUTIES pro Anno 1806.
Wine, Anno 1803
20,593
0
0
—
Wine, Anno 1804
14,115
0
0
—
Brought from Consolidated Excise by Act 46 Geo. III. cap. 44.
Wine, Anno 1803
188,604
0
0
275,123
0
0
Wine, Anno 1804
126,931
0
0
179,737
0
0
Tea Anno 1804
14,779
0
0
32,433
0
0
10 per Cent. Anno 1806
6,800
0
0
335,968
7
9
29,487,663
18
6½
29,890,489
19
1½
Surplus of Duties Annually granted, after discharging Exchequer Bills charged thereon
Sugar and Malt
916,588
4
3¾
1,024,634
19
9½
Malt
902,971
0
0
1,038,204
0
0
Tobacco
203,715
0
0
263,553
0
0
31,510,933
2
10¼
32,216,881
13
11
Duties granted to discharge
£
Sugar and Malt
1,560,343
17
11
1,845,707
8
3
Malt
239,364
0
0
8,780
0
0
Tobacco
238,386
0
0
180,447
0
0
£.
33,549,032
0
9¼
34,251,816
7
2
III.—ARREARS AND BALANCES.
HEADS AND TOTALS OF THESE ACCOUNTS.
Arrears due on the 5th January 1808, from the Officers of the Customs in England, &c.
Present Collectors
43,790
14
4
Late Collectors
2,017
14
9¾
Arrears due on the 5th January 1808, from the Officers of Customs in Scotland. &c.
Present Collector
76
12
6½
Late Collector
10,951
1
0¼
Arrears due on the 5th January 1808, from the Officers of Excise in England, &c.
(No Total made)
Arrears due on the 5th January 1808, from the Officers of Excise in Scotland, &c.
3,797
18
5¾
Arrears due on the 5th January 1808, from the Distributors of Stamps in Great Britain, Scotland, &c.
61,476
6
7¾
Balances in the Hands of the Distributors of Stamps in Great Britain, &c.
110,090
0
3
Arrears due on the 5th of January 1808, from the Receivers General of the Land and Assessed Taxes of Great Britain, &c.
405,045
3
10
Arrears due on the 5th January, from the Officers of the Post Office in Great Britain, &c.
Irrecoverables
4,289
12
7½
Recoverables
3,192
17
7
Balances in the Hands of the Deputy Postmasters in Great Britain, &.c.
86,846
4
1½
Balances due on the 5th January 1808, from the Receivers of the Land Revenue of the Crown for England, &c.
None.
Balances due on the 5th January 1808, from the Receivers of the Land Revenues of the Crown for Wales, &c.
None.
Accounts delivered into the Office of the Comptrollers of Accounts of the Army, &c.
(No Total given.)
List of Officers and Departments, whose Accounts are Audited by the Commissioners for Auditing the
viz.
Cashier of the Bank of England.
Commissioners for the Reduction of the National Debt.
Sec. to the said Commissioners.
Cashier of the South Sea Ann.
Paymasters of Exchequer Bills.
Inspector of Exchequer Tontine.
Cash, of Bank, Loans, & Lotteries
Sec. for Contingent Exp. of Do.
Chamberlain of London, Orphans Fund.
Treasurer of the Navy.
Treasurer of the Ordnance.
Treasurer of Navy Bills funded.
Treasurer of Ordn. Bills funded.
Inspector of Roads in N. Britain.
Paymaster General of the Army.
Agent to Out-Pen. Chelsea Hos.
Barrack Master Gen. in England.
Paymaster of Widows Pensons.
Receiver Gen. of Customs, Cash.
Compt. Gen. of Customs, General.
Commissioners for Licencing Hawkers and Pedlars.
Receiver General of Revenues arising by licensing Hackney Coaches and Chairs.
Receiver of Customs, I. of Man.
Receiver Gen. of Stamps, Cash.
Compt. Gen. of Stamps, General.
Receiver Gen. of the Post, Cash.
Comptroller Gen. of the Post, General.
Receiver of the Civil List Deduc.
Receiver of the 12
d.
Receiver of 1st Fruits of Clergy.
Receiver of Tenths of Clergy.
Keeper or Clerk of the Hanaper.
Paymaster of American Pensions.
Paymaster of Allowances to Toulonese Emigrants.
Lord Chamberlain of Household.
Master of the Robes.
Master of the Horse.
Master of the Mint.
Warden of the Mint.
Solicitor to the Treasury.
Comptroller and Cashier of the Stationary Office.
Surveyor of Somerset Place.
Agents for Cape Breton.—Bahama Islands.—New Brunswick.—Prince Edward Island.—Upper Canada.—Newfoundland.—Nova Scotia.—New S. Wales.—Regimental Infirmaries.—Paying Allowances to retired and officiating Chaplains of the Army.—Volunteer Corps.
List of Persons Accountable before the Commissioners for Auditing the
for Money imprested on Account, for Extraordinary Services: viz.
Barrack Masters Gen. Abroad.
Deputy Barrack Masters General.
Contractors for Victualling his Majesty's Forces.
Contractors for remitting Money for pay of Extras of the Forces.
Contractors for furnishing Camps with Bread, Wood, Straw, and Forage.
Commissaries General, Deputy Commissaries for the Purchase and Issues of Stores.
Commissaries of Accounts.
Engineers, for Monies received out of the Extraordinaries of the Forces.
Governors of Islands or Provinces and Lieut. Governors thereof.
Commanders in Chief, for Contingencies.
Paymasters of Provincial Forces.
Purveyors of Hospitals.
Quarter Masters General, and Deputy Quarter Masters Gen.
Superintendants, &c. of Indian Affairs.
Secretaries to Governors.
Secretaries to Commanders in Chief.
Clerk of the House of Commons, for printing the Journals.
N. B.—Any Person to whom Money may be Imprested on Account for Extraordinary Services (not relating to the Navy or Ordnance) becomes a Public Accountant, and is compellable to pass an Account in this Office.
List of Accounts which have NEITHER been Audited, Stated, or Declared;—completed to the 5th of January 1808.
List of the Accounts which HAVE been either Stated or Declared; so far as any Balances appear to be now owing to, or from, the Public, upon any such Accounts;—completed to the 5th January 1808.
IV.—TRADE AND NAVIGATION OF GREAT BRITAIN.
Value of all
into, and of all
from
for Three Years, ending the
th January
OFFICIAL VALUE of IMPORTS:
OFFICIAL VALUE of EXPOSTS:
From Europe, Africa, and America.
From East Indies and China.
Foreign and Colonial Merchandize.
British Produce and Manufactures.
£.
£.
£.
£.
Year ending 5th January 1806
24,272,468
6,072,160
9,950,508
25,004,337
Year ending 5th January 1807
25,089,136
3,746,771
9,124,499
27,402,685
Year ending 5th January 1808
25,406,330
*
9,395,283
25,190,762
£.
Note—The Value of British Produce and Manufactures exported, computed at the average Market Prices, was, in the Year ending 5th January, 1808
40,479,865
*The Account of Imports from India and China, for the last Year, cannot be yet prepared.
The Appendixes state the specific Articles.
Number of
with the Amount of their
which have been Annually Built and Registered in the several Ports of the
Empire,
except Ireland
between
th Jan.
and
th Jan.
SHIPS.
TONS.
In the Year 1805
1,001
89,584
In the Year 1806, being the Account delivered last Year, and now corrected
772
69,198
In the Year 1807
741
66,117
Number of
the Amount of their
and the Number of
and
usually employed in Navigating the same, which belonged to the several Ports of the
Empire, in the Years
and
1805.
1806.
1807.
SHIPS.
TONS.
MEN.
SHIPS.
TONS.
MEN.
SHIPS.
TONS.
MEN.
England
14,790
1,799,210
117,663
14,877
1,786,692
118,089
15,132
1,796,552
119,631
Jersey
74
6,769
685
68
6,485
543
77
6,891
552
Guernsey
111
9,759
1,326
108
10,193
1,351
106
9,927
993
Man
404
9,650
2,336
398
9,568
2,298
390
9,373
2,259
Plantations
3,024
190,953
15,467
2,867
183,860
13,244
2,917
184,794
13,565
Scotland
2,581
210,295
15,160
2,788
211,431
15,415
2,615
216,553
15,658
Ireland
1,067
56,806
5,070
1,076
55,545
5,081
1,098
56,981
5,217
Total
22,051
2,283,442
157,712
22,182
2,263,714
156,021
22,335
2,280,991
157,875
Number of
with the Amount of their
c. which entered
and cleared
in the several Ports of
from, or to all Paris of the World, in the Years
and
INWARDS.
OUTWARDS.
BRITISH.
FOREIGN.
BRITISH.
FOREIGN.
GLAND.
SHIPS.
TONS.
MEN.
SHIPS.
TONS.
MEN.
SHIPS.
TONS.
MEN.
SHIPS.
TONS.
MEN.
ar 1805
8,889
1,265,592
71,786
4,099
633,616
31,396
9,320
1,284,691
79,287
3,698
572,961
28,958
1806
9,456
1,239,528
72,777
3,358
551,104
27,798
9,789
1,258,903
78,596
3,249
538,700
27,900
1807
8,590
1,196,872
69,544
3,712
626,603
29,406
8,924
1,190,232
73,818
3,630
600,440
29,685
OTLAND.
1805
2,525
223,698
15,380
418
58,267
3,337
2,288
210,518
15,121
234
32,860
1,966
1806
2,662
243,136
16,211
435
61,800
3,556
2,462
227,399
15,961
210
29,470
1,732
1807
2,623
259,795
15,453
375
53,541
3,082
2,504
233,871
15,902
216
31,070
1,726
V.—PUBLIC EXPENDITURE.
£.
s.
d.
£.
s.
d.
£.
s.
d.
I.
Interest & Charges on the permanent Debt of Great Britain, Appx. (A.)
30,478,174
8
9¾
II.
The Interest on Exchequer Bills, (B.)
1,574,361
18
5
III.
The Civil List, (C.)
958,000
0
0
IV.
Other Charges on the Consolidated Fund, viz.
Courts of Justice
57,558
17
2¼
Mint
11,576
2
0
Allow. to Roy. Fam.
290,171
4
9½
Sals. & Allowances
74,453
7
0¼
Bounties
202,402
8
9
1,594,161
19
9
V.
Civil Government of Scotland, (D.)
85,359
3
3½
VI.
Other Payments in Anticipation, (E.) Bounties for Fisheries, Manufactures, Corn, &c.
438,991
13
8¼
Pensions on the Heredit. Revenue
27,700
0
0
Militia and Deserters Warrants, &c.
208,197
10
0¾
674,889
3
9
VII.
Navy, (F.)—Salaries to the Offices
130,000
0
0
For Wages, Bounty, Flag-pay, Half-pay, and Pensions
2,809,712
19
0
For Dock Yards, Building of Slips, Stores, Pilotage, &c.
6,361,735
0
8
For Marine Service on Shore
412,100
0
0
9,713,547
19
8
The Victualling Department
4,932,777
19
9
Transport Victualling Department for Transports, Prisoners of War, Sick & Wounded Seamen, &c.
1,829,435
9
10
Miscellaneous Services
300,000
0
0
2,129,435
9
10
16,775,761
9
3
VIII.
Ordnance, (G.)
4,190,748
6
6
IX.
Army, (H)—Ordinary Services, viz.
For Regulars, Fenc. Milit. Invalids, and Volunteer Corps
8,614,625
1
1
Barracks
256,549
8
2
Staff Officers & Offic. of Garrisons
144,596
6
9
Half-pay
198,343
3
0
Widows Pensions
21,500
0
0
Chelsea Hospital
550,023
7
7
Exchequer Fees
77,468
0
10
Pay of Public Offices
93,578
6
0
9,956,683
13
5
Extraordinary Services
5,431,867
0
11
X.
Loans, Remittances, and Advances to other Countries, Ireland, (I.)
15,388,550
14
4
3,681,251
3
4
XI.
Miscellaneous Services, (K.)
At Home
1,049,205
7
8¾
Abroad
178,177
13
0
1,227,383
0
8¾
75,670,641
8
2
Deduct Loan, &c. for Ireland
3,681,251
3
4
£.
71,989,390
4
10
*This includes the Sum of
£.
N.B. The several Items under each head are stated in the Appendixes A, B, &c. above referred to—which follow.
Monies paid out of the Exchequer in the Year ended
th Jan.
towards satisfying the Charges of the
of Great Britain, Ireland, and Imperial Loans.
INTEREST.
Annuities for Lives, or for Terms of Years.
Charges of Management.
£.
s.
d.
£.
s.
d.
£.
s.
d.
Permanent Funded Debt of Great Britain
17,611,268
16
9¾
1,403,350
14
4
272,948
12
8½
Loans raised for the Service of Ireland
1,162,631
14
8
91,208
6
8
19,163
12
11
Imperial Loans
202,792
7
11
230,000
0
0
5,645
10
6
18,976,692
19
4¾
1,724,559
1
0
297,757
16
1½
1,724,559
1
0
18,976,692
19
4¾
£.
20,999,009
16
6¼
Towards the Redemption of the Public Debt; viz.
£.
s.
d.
Annual Issue by 26 Geo. III.
1,000,000
0
0
Annual Issue by 42 Geo. III.
200,000
0
0
Annuities for Terms of Years expired, prior to 5th July, 1802
79,880
14
6
Annuities for Lives on which the Nominees are certified to have died prior to 5th July 1802, or that have been unclaimed for 3 Years
49,598
0
7
Interest on Debt of Great Britain redeemed
3,560,654
4
8
Interest on Debt of Ireland redeemed
118,063
13
6
Interest on Debt of Imperial redeemed
22,286
12
1
£.
3,491,360
11
2½
Part of the annual Appropriation
468,200
14
0
£
452,427
1
9
£.
36,693
0
0
9,479,164
12
3½
£.
30,478,174
8
9¾
APPENDIX (A. 2.)—
Total Amount of the Sums actually received by the
for the Reduction of the
in the Year ending the
th Jan.
GREAT BRITAIN.
£.
s.
d.
£.
s.
d.
By Annual Issue, 26 Geo. III.
1,000,000
0
0
By Annual Issue, 42 Geo. III.
200,000
0
0
Exchequer Anns. For 99 & 96 Years, expired 1792
54,880
14
6
Short Anns. 1777, expired 1787
25,000
0
0
Anns. on Lives expired prior to 5th July 1802
20,998
1
1
Anns. on Lives unclaimed for 3 Years before 5th Jan. 1807
28,599
19
6
£.
3,491,360
11
2½
Interest on
£.
3,445,155
15
10
Interest on
£.
104,696
0
0
Interest on
£.
7,100
0
0
8,377,771
2
1½
Three quarters Issue of the Annual Appropriation towards the Redemption of
£.
£.
468,200
14
0
Interest on Capitals purchased by the Commissioners at
£.
3,722
8
10
471,923
9
10
IRELAND.
8,849,694
4
11½
£.
452,427
1
9
118,063
13
6
570,490
15
3
IMPERIAL.
£.
36,693
0
0
Interest on 3 per cent. Imperial Anns.
22,286
12
1
58,979
12
1
9,479,164
12
3½
APPENDIX (C.)—
Charges upon the
in the Year ended Jan.
exclusive of the Interest of the
and the Payments upon
CIVIL LIST.
£.
s.
d.
For his Majesty's Household
898,000
0
0
Fir his by 44 Geo. III. per ann
60,000
0
0
COURTS OF JUSTICE.
The Judges of England and Wales
17,900
15
5
A. Graham, Esq. Inspector of the temporary places of confinement of Felons
350
0
0
P. Colquhoun, Esq. Receiver of the Thames Police Office
7,168
6
10
J. Baldwin, Esq. Receiver of the seven Public Offices
16,139
14
11¼
H. M. Dyer, Esq. Ch. J. Adm. Court, Bahama
2,000
0
0
J. Bedford, Esq. Ch. J. Adm. Court, Barbadoes
2,000
0
0
J. Sewell, Esq. Ch. J. Adm. Court, at Malta
2,000
0
0
W. Territt, Esq. Ch. J. Adm. Court, at Bermudas
2,000
0
0
Alex. Croke, Esq. Ch. J. Adm. Court, Nova Scotia
2,000
0
0
H. I. Hinchcliffe, Esq. Ch. J. Adm. Court, Jamaica
2,000
0
0
Sheriffs of England and Wales
4,000
0
0
Keeper of the Hanaper in Chancery
—
MINT.
Master of, in England
6,900
0
0
T. Morrison, esq. Receiver of the Fees in the Mint
3,476
2
0
Master of, in Scotland
1,200
0
0
SALARIES & ALLOWANCES.
The Rt. Hon. C. Abbot, Speaker of the House of Commons, to complete his Allowance of 6,0001.
2,801
10
0
The Marquis of Bute, late one of the Auditors of the Imprest
7,000
0
0
P. Deare, Esq. late Deputy one of the Auditors of the Imprest
300
0
0
E. Roberts, Esq. on the yearly Sum of 6501. for merly paid to the Auditor of the Exchequer
650
0
0
Commissioners for auditing the Public Accounts
12,300
0
o
Salaries of Clerks in the Office of Public Accounts
35,982
7
0
Inspector of Tontine Certificates
800
0
0
Chief Cashier of the Bank of England, for Fees paid at sundry Public Offices
904
6
0
Chief Cashier of South Sea Co. for Fees paid at sundry Public Offices
—
Commissioners for auditing the Public Accounts in the West Indies
4,750
0
0
Salaries and Contingencies for auditing the Public Accounts in the West Indies
5,764
18
8
John Buckworth, Esq. 49 days to 10th Oct. 1807
126
5
9¼
John L. Panter, Esq. for Salaries and Contingencies in the Office of the said Commissioners, to enable them to proceed to the West Indies
3,073
19
7
PENSIONS.
His R. H. the Prince of Wales
65,000
0
0
His R. H. the Prince of Wales
—
His R. H. the Duke of York
14,000
0
0
His R. H. the Duke of Clarence
12,000
0
0
His R. H. the Duke of Kent
12,000
0
0
His R. H. the Duke of Cumberland
12,000
0
0
His R. H. the Duke of Sussex
12,000
0
0
His R. H. the Duke of Cambridge
£.
0
0
His R. H. the Duke of Clarence
6,000
0
0
His R. H. the Duke of Kent
6,000
0
0
His R. H. the Duke of Cumberland
6,000
0
0
His R. H. the Duke of Sussex
6,000
0
0
His R. H. the Duke of Cambridge
6,000
0
0
Representatives of Arthur Onslow
3,000
0
0
Earl of Chathem
4,000
0
0
Lord Heathfield
1,500
0
0
Lord Rodney
2,000
0
0
Lady Dorchester
1,000
0
0
John Penn, Esq.
3,000
0
0
Richard Penn, Esq.
1,000
0
0
Duchess of York
4,000
0
0
Earl St. Vincent
2,000
0
0
Lord Duncan
2,000
0
0
Duke of Richmond
12,666
13
4
Sir William Henry Ashurst
1,500
0
0
Sir Beaumont Hotham
2,000
0
0
Sir Sidney Smith
1,000
0
0
Baroness Abercrombie
2,000
0
0
Lord Hutchinson
2,000
0
0
Sir James Saumarez
1,200
0
0
Duke of Portland and others, for the Prince of Orange
16,000
0
0
Lord Boringdon and others, in Trust for Lord Amherst
3,000
0
0
Duke of Athol
3,256
3
6
Lady Viscountess Nelson
2,000
0
0
Sir Rich. Strachan
1,000
0
0
Lord Collingwood
2,000
0
0
Sir J. T. Duck worth
1,000
0
0
Lord Eldon
955
11
1¼
William Earl Nelson
5,000
0
0
Lord Rodney
923
1
6
Thomas Baron Erskine
3,044
8
10½
Princess Charlotte of Wales
7,000
0
0
Duchess Dowager of Gloucester
2,000
0
0
Duke of Gloucester
14,000
0
0
Her Highness Princess Sophia
5,000
0
0
Her Highness Princess Sophia for 49 days to 10th Oct. 1807
752
11
6½
Sir J. Stuart, for 1 day 1 qr. of a year to 10th Oct. 1807
1,502
14
11¼
Duke of Grafton
6,370
0
0
BOUNTIES.
For the Encouragement of the Growth of Hemp and Flax
2,956
13
8
Richard Clarke, Esq. Chamberlain of the City of London, for the better Improvement of the Port of London
20,000
0
0
Richard Clarke, Esq. Chamberlain of the City of London, for the better Improvement of the Port of London in full of
£.
20,000
0
0
Richard Clarke, Esq. Chamberlain of the City of London, for the better Improvement of the Port of London in part of
£.
21,000
0
0
Commissioners for the Improvement of the Port of London
4,000
0
0
Commissioners for Compensations for loss sustained under the Act for the Improvement of the Port of London
93,079
12
1
Commissioners of Northern Light-houses
15,000
0
0
The Directors of the West India Company, in part of
£.
15,000
0
0
Sir W. Curtis, for 130 Ticket Porters, claiming Compensations under the Act for Improvement of the Port of London, including Fees
11,366
2
6
£.
19
9
APPENDIX (B.)—
Interest paid on
from the
th Day of Jan.
to the
th Day of January
£.
s.
d.
Aids Anno 1806
Cap. 6.
237,411
19
5
Supply Anno 1806
25.
679,727
3
8
Aids Anno 1806
93.
413,344
19
11
Aids for
£.
6.
72,945
4
1
Aids Bank Charter for
£.
41.
90,000
0
0
Aids Anno 1807
28.
664
7
5
Bank Premiums on Personal Estates and Malt Duty, &c.
80,268
3
11
£.
18
5
APPENDIX (D.)—
A List of all such Sum and Sums of Money as have been incurred, and become due, upon his Majesty's Establishment for
within
bearing Date the
th Day of June
for One Year: from
th Jan.
inclusive to
th Jan.
exclusive
£.
3
3 7/12
APPENDIX (E. 1.)—
Amount of
paid in England and Scotland out of the Revenues of Customs and Excise, between the
th of Jan.
and the
th Jan.
being Payments in the nature of Anticipations of Exchequer Issues.
CUSTOMS.
ENGLAND.
SCOTLAND.
GREAT BRITAIN.
£.
s.
d.
£.
s.
d.
£.
s.
d.
Bounties on Cotton and Linen Manufactures, &c.
342,200
19
5¾
65,091
10
9½
407,292
10
3¼
Bounties on British and Southern Whale Fishery &c.
Bounties on Newfoundland and White Herring &c.
EXCISE.
Bounties on British Spirits
19,840
10
11½
11,858
12
5½
31,699
3
5
Bounties on Fish Spirits
Buss and Barrel Bounties, certified on the Excise, for Deficiency of Money in the hands of the Receiver Gen. of the Customs
£.
362,041
10
5¼
76,950
3
3
433,991
13
8¼
APPENDIX (E. 2.)—POST OFFICE.—
Pensions and Parliamentary
for the Year ended
th January
His Grace the Duke of Marlborough
£.
His Grace the Duke of Grafton
4,700
The heirs of the late Duke of Schomberg
4,000
£.
APPENDIX (E. 3.)—EXCISE.—
An Account, shewing how the
remaining in the Receipt of the Exchequer on the
th Jan.
together with the Monies paid into the same during the Year ending
th Jan.
and the Monies paid out of the Net Produce of the Revenues of the said Year, in Anticipation of the Exchequer Receipt, have beat actually applied; so far as regards the Receipt of the Excise in England, and can be ascertained at the Excise Office.
PENSIONS, viz.
£.
s.
d.
£.
s.
d.
Duke of Grafton
9,000
0
0
Earl Cowper
2,000
0
0
Charles Boon, Esq. Moiety of the Earl of Bath's
1,500
0
0
Lord Melbourne's Moiety of the Earl of Bath's
1,500
0
0
BOUNTY;
14,000
0
0
Salted Provisions
19,840
10
11½
£.
33,840
10
11½
APPENDIX (E. 4.)—
Sums advanced by Receivers General of Land and Assessed Taxes, on Account of
and
and other Disbursements, under various Acts of Parliament; between the
th January
and the
th January
ENGLAND.
SCOTLAND.
£.
s.
d.
£.
s.
d.
Militia and Deserters Warrants
19,659
5
4½
6,214
12
10½
Volunteers
80,439
16
3½
39,103
13
4
Defence Acts
18,182
8
11¾
691
7
7
Army of Reserve
32,337
2
10
10,239
19
11½
Yeomanry Cavalry
1,121
10
4
Population Act
207
12
6
£
150,618
13
5¾
57,578
16
7
Total
£.
APPENDIX (F.)—
Monies received from his Majesty's Exchequer, for
between
th January
and the
th January
HEADS OF SERVICE.
SUM.
TOTAL.
NAVY:
£.
s.
d.
£.
s.
d.
Salaries to the Admiralty, Navy, and Navy Pay Offices
130,000
0
0
Wages to Officers and Seamen
2,117,308
7
6
Bounty to Volunteers, Flag Pay, &c.
380,000
0
0
Half Pay to Sea Officers, and Bounty to Chaplains
206,404
11
6
Pensions to Sea Officers, their Widows, &c. and to superannuated Artificers
106,000
0
0
Wages to His Majesty's Dock and Rope Yards
1,051,000
0
0
Building of Ships, purchase of Stores of every Description, repairing of Ships, purchase of Ships taken from the Enemy, Head Money, &c. paid in Bills at Ninety Days Date
4,654,758
13
7
Pilotage
38,000
0
0
Bills of Exchange, Imprests, and Contingencies
605,976
7
1
Exchequer Fees
12,000
0
0
Marine Services on Shore, and Half Pay to Marine Officers
412,100
0
0
9,713,547
19
8
VICTUALLING.
Provisions and all sorts of Victualling Stores, paid for in Bills at Ninety Days Date
3,621,954
6
5
Wages to the Victualling Yards
135,100
0
0
Bills of Exchange and Imprest
1,031,000
0
0
Necessary and Extra Necessary Money, and Contingencies
112,000
0
0
Widows Pensions
32,723
13
4
4,932,777
19
9
TRANSPORTS,
Freight of Transports, Maintenance of Prisoners of War, and Expence of Sick, and Wounded Seamen, paid for in Bills at Ninety Days Date
1,829,435
9
10
Bills of Exchange, and all other Services paid for in Ready Money
300,000
0
0
2,129,435
9
10
£.
16,775,761
9
3
APPENDIX (G).—
Monies paid by the Office of
in the Year
for Services at Home and Abroad respectively.
£.
s.
d.
Services at Home
3,895,526
11
0
Services Abroad
295,221
15
6
£.
4,190,748
6
6
APPENDIX (II.)—
Monies paid by the Right Honourable the Paymasters General of his Majesty's
from
th December
to
th December
£.
s.
d.
Pay and Allowances of the Forces, &c. Captains Allowances, Off-reckonings, Recruiting and Contingencies, Bills, and Clothing
7,972,850
8
5
Volunteers
641,774
12
8
Exchequer Fees
77,468
0
10
Garrisons
24,000
0
0
Pay of Officers
93,578
6
0
Staff
120,596
6
9
Barracks
256,549
8
2
Half Pay
198,343
3
0
Widows Pensions
21,500
0
0
Chelsea Hospital
550,023
7
7
Extraordinaries
5,431,867
0
11
£.
14
4
APPENDIX (I.)—
An Account of
and
to other Countries, in the Year ending the
th Day of January
There was remitted out of Supplies 1806/7, to that Part of the United Kingdom called Ireland, viz.
£
s.
d.
Out of
£.
117,647
0
0
Out of Loan 1806, per Act 46 Geo. III. Cap. 33.
276,000
0
0
Out of Lotteries 1806, per Act 46 Geo. III. Cap. 148.
156,437
10
0
Out of Loan 1807, per Act 47 Geo. III. Cap. 28.
1,630,000
0
0
Out of Loan 1807, per Act 47 Geo. III. Cap. 46.
1,450,000
0
0
Out of Lotteries 1807, per Act 47 Geo. III. Cap. 9.
51,166
13
4
£.
3
4
APPENDIX (K).—
An Account, shewing how the Monies remaining in the Receipt of the
on the
th Day of January
together with the Bionics paid into the same during the Year ended the
th of January
have been actually applied; so far as relates to
SERVICES AT HOME.
£.
s.
d.
To be paid to the Officers of the Houses of Lords and Commons 1806/7
7,428
12
4
For defraying the Charge to the Superintendence of Aliens 1805/6/7
7,040
0
0
For the Royal Military College, 1806/7
31,345
2
11
For the Use of the Officers and Seamen who served under the late Vice-Admiral Lord Viscount Nelson, at the Battle off Cape Trafalgar, on the 21st Oct. 1805/6
12,500
0
0
For defraying the Charge of the Works and Repairs of the Roads and Bridges in the Highlands of Scotland, 1806
10,250
14
0
For confining, maintaining, and employing Convicts at Home, 1806/7
48,166
2
6¼
For printing Journals of the House of Commons, for printing and delivering Votes, and for printing Reports, Bills, &c. 1806
18,291
14
4
For painting 1,750 Copies of the 58th Volume of Journals, 1806
4,000
0
0
For Printing and Stationary for the Two House of Parliament, for 1806/7
30,682
15
6
For the French Clergy and Laity; Toulonese, Corsican, and Dutch Emigrants; and American Loyalists, 1806/7
133,119
2
7
Towards defraying the Expence of the Public Office, Bow Street, 1806/7
12,701
18
5
For the Royal Military Asylum at Chelsea, for 1806
12,808
16
11
For his Majesty's Foreign and other Secret Services, 1806/7
Vide Services Abroad.
For carrying on the building of a new Mint. 1806/7
58,033
2
0
Extraor. Expences of Prosecutions relating to the Coin of this Kingdom, 1806/7
2,722
16
1
For the extra Charge of Messengers of the Three Secretaries of State, 1806/7
£
0
0
For the extra Charge of Contingencies of the Three Secretaries of State, 1806/7
9,000
0
0
For the Ministers of the Vaudois Churches, for 1806/7
1,828
5
4
To Sheriffs, for Conviction of Felons and Overpayments, 1806
6,700
0
0
For defraying Law Charges, 1806/7
13,000
0
0
Protestant Dissenting Ministers in England, and for the Relief of the poor French Protestant Clergy and Laity, for 1806/7
9,370
5
0
For Printing, by Order of the Commissioners of Public Records, 1806
3,596
5
10
For printing Returns relative to the Expence and Maintenance of the Poor, 1806
393
1
0½
For the Royal College of Surgeons, to erect a Building for the Reception of Dr. Hunter's Collection, and a Theatre for the Delivery of Public Lectures on Anatomy and Surgery
4,000
0
0
For an Allowance to the Commissioners of Naval Inquiry, 1806
294
16
8
Towards the Support of an Institution called the Veterinary College, for 1806
1,500
0
0
For the Deficiency of the Grant 1806, for the relief of the suffering Clergy and Laity of France, Toulonese, Dutch and Corsican Emigrants, and American Loyalists, 1807
1,432
13
5
For the Deficiency of the Grant Anno 1806, for the Protestant Dissenting Ministers in England, and for the Relief of the Poor French Protestant Clergy and Laity, 1807
377
8
6
To defray Bills of the Usher of the Court of Exchequer for Stationary, &c. for 1807
1,214
4
3
For Works done at the two Houses of Parliament and at the House of the Speaker
27,900
0
0
For the Deficiency of the Grant of 1806, for Parliament and at the House of the Speaker 1807
11,800
0
0
For the Works and Repairs of the Military Roads in North Britain, 1807
4,993
5
0
For purchasing Buildings and Ground in and near Palace Yard, Westminster, 1807
11,750
14
6
For purchasing Buildings and Ground in and near Palace Yard, Westminster, 1807
29,000
0
0
For Deficiency of Printing, &c. for the Two House of Parliament
9,789
11
8¾
For printing and delivering Votes of the House of Commons, and printing Bills Reports, &c. 1807
16,168
3
3
For Deficiency of the Grant for Votes of the House of Commons, and printing Bills Reports, Anno 1806
14,881
16
2
For Deficiency of the Grant of 1806, for printing 1,750 Copies of the 58th Volume of Journals of the House of Commons, 1807
459
2
4
For defraying the Expence of printing Articles of Impeachment, Minutes of the Evidence, and Copies of the Trial of Lord Viscount Melville, 1807
2,046
6
0
For defraying the Expences incurred in the Department of the Lord Chamberlain of his Majesty's Household, on the Trial of Lord Viscount Melville, 1807
8,556
9
11½
For Expence of making an Inland Navigation from the Eastern to the Western Sea,
25,000
0
0
For paying Fees on passing Public Accounts, 1807
5,000
0
0
To satisfy an Award made by Dr. Swabey and Master Griffulhe, for the Loss of the Ship Dunkirk on the Coast of Denmark, 1807
11,538
14
6
For the Captors of the Second Swedish Convoy, and for the Balance due to the Owners of the said Ships, 1807
10,306
18
5
To the Trustees of the British Museum, for the purchase of the MSS. belonging to the late Marquis of Lansdowne, 1807
4,925
0
0
Towards the Repair of Henry the Seventh's Chapel, 1807
2,000
0
0
Further Reward to Dr. Jenner, for promulgating his Discovery of the Vaccine Inoculation, 1807
20,000
0
0
For enabling the Trustees of the British Museum to carry on the Trusts reposed in them by Parliament, 1807
5,556
5
0
For erecting Buildings for a Naval Asylum, and towards the Maintenance of the said Institution, 1807
30,000
0
0
For Salaries to the Officers, and Incidental Expences of the Commissioners for reducing the National Debt
2,328
18
0
To the Representatives of William Young, Esq; for Expences attending the execution of an Act for the Redemption and Sale of the Land Tax
1,849
18
3
For Salaries and Expences of American Commissioners
2,611
0
0
To the Bank, of England, for Discount on Prompt Payments on Loan
£.
251,672
4
1
To the Bank, of England, for receiving the above Loan
£.
16,115
16
8
To the Bank of England, for Discount on prompt Payments on Lotteries, 1806/7
2,571
4
8
To the Bank of England, for receiving Contributions to Lotteries
5,000
0
0
Principal and Interest of American and East Florida Orders, for Relief to such Persons as have suffered during the late unhappy Dissentions in America
476
7
6¼
To the Commissioners of preparing and drawing Lotteries 1806/7
15,500
0
0
To replace to His Majesty's Civil List Revenues the Sums issued thereout, pursuant to Addresses of the House of Commons; viz.
For Rewards to Persons employed under the Commissioners for carrying into execution the Measures recommended by the Ho. of Com. respecting the Public Records
1,085
3
0
To the Clerk Assistant of the House of Commons, Sess. 1806
980
2
8
To the Second Clerk Assistant to the House of Commons, in Sess. 1806
1,085
4
0
To Edward Colman, Esq. late Serjeant at Arms, attending the House of Commons
250
0
0
To the Deputy Serjeant at Arms, to make up his Allowance equal to
£.
332
3
0
To George Whittam, Esq; for making an Index to the Votes in Session 1806
350
0
0
To H. Alexander, Esq; as Chairman of the Committee of Ways & Means, Sess. 1806
1,300
5
0
To make good to His Majesty's Civil List Revenues Monies issued thereout, for Public Services; viz.
For Salaries of the additional Commissioners for auditing the Public Accounts
£.5,397
2
0
To J. Johnson, Architect, for carrying on the Building of the new Mint
5,000
0
0
For additional Allowance to Clerks in the Office for auditing Public Accounts
4,252
1
1
To Dr. Clarke, for his Trouble and Attendance relative to an Act for enforcing the Residence of the Clergy
731
11
11
To Peter Lord Gwydir, Deputy Great Chamberlain, for Expences attending the Trial of Lord Viscount Melville
1,216
17
10
To Joseph Kaye and John Winter, Jun. Solicitors to the Managers of the Impeachment against Lord Viscount Melville
7,549
0
2
To W. G. Rose, Esq. and others Officers of the House of Commons, for their Attendance on various Committees in Session 1806
233
10
0
To E. Stracey, Esq. as a Compensation for his Services as Counsel to the Chairman of the Committee of the House of Peers, Session 1806
762
10
0
For defraying the Expences of a Plan for the more perfect Security of the Shipping in the Port of London
649
12
0
To H. Cowper, Esq. Clerk Assistant to the House of Lords, for additional Trouble during the Trial of Lord Viscount Melville
224
12
0
To W. Chinnery, Esq. as a Compensation to Persons attending during the Trial of Lord Viscount Melville
974
3
6
To J. Meheux, Esq. Assistant Secretary to the Commissioners for the Affairs of India, for the Purchase of the Lease of a House in Downing-strect for an Office for the said Commissioners
272
5
4
For defraying the Expences of a Plan for the Establishment of a Horse Patrol for the public Roads leading to the Metropolis
3,172
18
0
To W. Chinnery, Esq. to pay a Bill drawn by Sir Eyre Coote, for Bounties on Fish
535
9
0
To the Secretary to the Commissioners of Military Enquiry, for Expences incurred by them
2,637
13
6
To the Secretary to the West India Commissioners, for the Expences of their Office
1,622
29
6
To Sir I. Heard, for extra Expences incurred at the Funeral of the late Lord Viscount
71
4
0
To William Chinnery, Esq. for Books of Science and Chemical Articles for the Settlement of New South Wales
114
11
0
To J. Clementson, Esq. for one Year's Rent of a House, in lieu of Apartments he resigned at the House of Commons
219
14
0
To W. Chinnery, Esq. to pay Bills drawn by Mr. Commissary Laidlaw, for Bounties on Fish
271
12
6
To T. Nettleship, Esq. for publishing the Average Price of Brown sugar
434
17
0
To the Secretary to the Commissioners of Naval Enquiry, for Contingent Expences
1,060
19
0
To W. Watson, Esq. Serjeant at Arms to the House of Lords, for his Services during the Session 1806
1,623
0
0
To Lord Walsingham, Chairman of the Committees of the House of Lords, for his Attendance in Session 1806
2,698
13
0
SERVICES ABROAD.
For His Majesty's Foreign and other Secret Services, 1806/7
90,338
18
0
For repairing and maintaining British Forts and Settlements on the Coast of Africa
18,000
0
0
To pay Bills drawn from New South Wales, 1807
14,420
0
0
For the Civil Establishment of Upper Canada, 1807
8,280
0
0
For the Civil Establishment of Nova Scotia, 1807
5,373
15
0
For the Civil Establishment of New Brunswick, 1807
4,650
0
0
For the Civil Establishment of St. John's, 1807
3,100
0
0
For the Civil Establishment of Cape Breton, 1807
2,040
0
0
For the Civil Establishment of Bahamas, 1807
4,400
0
0
For the Civil Establishment of Bermuda, 1806/7
870
0
0
For the Civil Establishment of New South Wales, 1807
12,705
0
0
For the Civil Establishment of Sierra Leone, 1807
14,000
0
0
£.1,227,383
0
8¾
VI.—PUBLIC FUNDED DEBT.
PUBLIC FUNDED DEBT OF GREAT BRITAIN,
as the same stood on the First Day of February
TOTAL DEBT UNREDEEMED.
£.
s.
d.
Bank of England, and Annuities, 1726 At 3 per cent
12,686,800
0
0
South Sea Old and New Annuities, 1751 At 3 per cent
18,330,684
13
11½
Consolidated Annuities At 3 per cent
359,662,346
8
0¼
Reduced Annuities At 3 per cent
99,569,631
0
7
Consolidated Annuities At 4 per cent
47,107,684
17
2
Consolidated Annuities At 5 per cent
46,532,742
1
8
Annuities, 1797 and 1802 At 5 per cent
2,070,043
16
9
Total CAPITALS
585,959,932
18
1¾
Annual Interest
19,009,621
8
7½
Annuities for Lives, or for Terms of Years
1,433,869
14
6¾
Charges of Management
288,409
0
0¼
Annuities fallen in or dead, 1 per cent. and Annual Grants, besides £.23,675 2
s.
9,971,892
4
1½
Total CHARGE for DEBT payable in GREAT BRITAIN
30,703,792
7
4
Progress made in the Redemption of the
of
funded in
at 1st February
FUNDS.
CAPITALS.
Redeemed by the Commissioners at 1st February 1808.
TOTAL SUMS paid.
Average Price of stocks.
SUMS applicable to the Reduction of DEBT.
£.
£.
£.
s.
d.
£.
s.
d.
Consolidated 3 per cent. Ann.
30,238,875
2,211,000
1,353,691
4
4
61¼
1 per cent, on Capital created
479,535
4
3
Reduced 3 per cent. Ann
16,028,750
2,417,926
1,457,663
0
3
60¼
Consolidated 4 per cent. Ann
300,000
4,628,926
2,811,354
4
7
60¾
Dividend on £.4,628,926 3 per cent. Annuities
138,867
15
7
Consolidated 5 per cent. Ann
572,000
47,139,625
£.618,402
19
10
Redeemed by the Commissioners
4,628,926
42,510,699
Progress made in the Redemption of the
at 1st February
£.
£.
£.
s.
d.
£.
s.
d.
Imperial 3 per cent. Annuities
3,669,300
829,426
485,167
0
11
58½
1 per cent, on Capitals created
Redeemed by the Commissioners
829,426
36,693
0
0
Unredeemed 1st February 1808
2,839,874
Dividend on £.829,426, 3 per cent. Annuities
24,882
15
7
61,575
15
7
(2)—
An Account of the Progress made in the
of the
of
at First of February
FUNDS.
CAPITALS.
Redeemed by the Commissioners from 1st August 1786 10 1st Feb. 1808.
TOTAL SUMS Paid.
Average Price of Stocks.
SUMS Annually applicable to the Reduction of the NATIONAL DEBT.
ANNUITIES Fallen in since 22d June 1802, or that will fall in hereafter.
£.
s.
d.
£.
£.
s.
d.
£.
s.
d.
£.
s.
d.
Consolidated 3 per Cent. Annuities
384,336,558
4
5¼
54,662,720
33,495,789
18
6
61¼
Annual Charge, per Act 46 Geo. III.
1,000,000
0
0
Exchequer Annuities, 2d and 3d Anne; expired 5th April 1803
Consolidated 3 per Cent. pro 1807
8,400,000
0
0
249,280
156,066
18
0
62⅝
Annual Charge, per Act 42 Geo. III
200,000
0
0
23,369
13
4
Reduced 3 per Cent. Ann.
150,284,044
7
10
62,111,493
37,673,602
15
3
60⅝
Annuities for 99 & 96 Years, expired 1792
54,880
14
6
Exchequer Annuities, 2d and 3d Anne; expired 5th Jan. 1805.
7,030
6
8
Reduced pro 1807
8,400,000
0
0
500,209
315,856
4
10
63½
Exchequer Annuities, 2d abd 4 Anne, expired 5th April 1805
Old South Sea Annuities.
24,065,084
13
11½
6,901,000
4,871,802
15
6
70⅝
Annuities for 10 Years expired 1807
25,000
0
0
23,254
11
6
New South Sea Annuities
Life Annuities Unclaimed for 3 Years, or of which the Nominees have died prior to 5th July 1802
Do. 5 Anne, Do. 5th April 1806
3 per Cent Annuities 1751
1,919,000
0
0
753,000
547,358
0
0
72⅝
7,770
10
0
Consol. 4 per Cent. Ann.
49,425,084
17
2
2,617,400
2,278,402
1
3
87
Do. 6 Anne, Do. 5th April 1807
Consol. 5 per Cent. Ann.
44,830,742
1
8
142,000
126,998
7
6
89⅜
49,786
18
1
4,710
10
0
Consol. pro 1807
1,272,000
0
0
Dividend on £.124,428,213 at 3 per Cent.
3 732,846
7
9½
Do. 6 Anne, Do. 5th July 1807
10,181
0
0
5 per Cent. Annuities 1797 & 1802
2,070,043
16
9
Dividend on £.2,617,400, at 4 per Cent.
Bank Short Anne; expired 5th Jan. 1808
3 per Cent Annuities 1726
1,000,000
0
0
104,696
0
0
418,333
0
11
3 per Cent Bank Ann.
11,686,800
0
0
Divident on £.142,000 Navy, at 5 per Cent
7,100
0
0
Bank Long Ann. will expire 5th July 1860
1,047,494
5
4½
£.687,689,958
1
9¾
127,937,102
79,465,877
0
10
Annuity of 1 per Cent, on part of Capitals created since 1st Feb. 1793
3,491,330
12
10
By an Act 42 Geo. III. Cap. 71. such Annuities as fall in after passing that Act are not to be placed to the Account of the Reduction of the National Debt; but are no longer to be continued in the Annual Charge thereof.
Transferred to the Commissioners, by reason of Land Tax Redeemed, at 1st February 1808
22,976,829
10
4
Annual Amount payable for Reduction of £.12,000,000 pro 1807
624,267
12
0
DEBT Exiting at 1st February 1808
664,713,128
11
5¾
Dividend on £.749,489, at 3 per Cent, on Account of 1807
22,484
13
4½
Redeemed by the Commissioners
127,937,102
0
0
9,312,392
18
7
DEBT Unredeemed at 1st February 1808
536,776,026
11
5¾
VII.—UNFUNDED DEBT.
An Account of the
and
on the 5th Day of January
EXCHEQUER BILLS:
Under what Acts issued.
On what Funds charged.
Amount Outstanding.
47 Geo. III. cap. 3.
Malt, Anno 1806
£.273,000
0
0
47 Geo. III. cap. 2.
Aids, Anno 1808
10,500,000
0
0
47 Geo. III. cap. 28.
Aids, Anno 1807
15,621,500
0
0
47 Geo. III. cap. 73.
Aids, Anno 1807
1,048,400
0
0
47 Geo. III. cap. 27.
Aids, Anno 1808
1,500,000
0
0
47 Geo. III. cap. 76.
Aids, Bank Charter 1808
3,000,000
0
0
31,942,900
0
0
TREASURY:
Miscellaneous Services
41,052
19
10¾
Warrants for Army Services
79,961
17
3
Treasury Bills accepted previous to and on the 5th January, 1808, due subsequent to that day
231,085
16
0
727,100
13
1¾
ARMY:
Ordinary Services
1,063,036
10
11
Extraordinary Services
Nil.
1,063,036
10
11
Barracks
476,586
0
8
Ordnance
1,165,822
13
7
Navy
6,561,237
9
1¼
Civil List Advances
50,430
2
6
41,987,113
9
11
VIII.—DISPOSITION OF GRANTS.
An Account, shewing how the
given for the
of the Year
have been disposed of; so far as relates to
SUMS Voted of Granted.
SUMS Paid.
Remains to be Paid.
SERVICES.
£.
s.
d.
£.
s.
d.
£.
s.
d.
Navy
16,977,837
9
3
16,977,837
9
3
Ordnance
3,264,469
4
8
3,264,469
4
8
Forces
15,361,365
2
9
15,361,365
2
9
To enable his Majesty to take such measures as the exigency of affairs may require, for Great Britain
4,500,000
0
0
4,500,000
0
0
To make good the like Sum, which has been advanced to the king of Prussia, in consequence of the urgency of affairs upon the Conunent
180,000
0
0
180,000
0
0
To make good the like sum, which has been issued by his majesty's orders, pursuant to addresses of the house of commons, and which has not been made good by parliament
5,382
17
8
5,382
17
8
Civil Establishments and Services
3,038,560
4
9
2,774,575
8
10¾
263,984
15
10½
Total
43,327,614
19
1
43,063,630
3
2¾
263,984
15
10¼
Payments for other Services, not being part of the Supplies granted for the Service of the Year
£.376,892
5
5¼
WAYS
and
for answering the foregoing
£.
s.
d.
Duty on Malt continued
750,000
0
0
4
s.
2,000,000
0
0
Two-thirds Profits of fourth Lottery, 1806
92,666
13
4
423,333
6
8
Two-thirds Profits of three Lotteries, 1807
330,666
13
4
Surplus consolidated Fund to 5th April 1808
3,750,000
0
0
War Taxes
19,800,000
0
0
Exchequer Bills on Vote of Credit
4,500,000
0
0
Surplus Ways and Means, 1806
171,185
5
3½
Loan, part of £.14,200,000. (the Remainder being for the Service of Ireland)
12,200,000
0
0
£.43,594,518
11
11½
£.
s.
d.
Total Sum granted as per preceding Account
43,327,614
19
1
Sums paid for Services not voted, as per preceding Account
376,892
5
5¼
43,704,507
4
6¼
Amount of Ways and Means, as above
43,594,518
11
11½
Deficiency of Ways and Means
£.109,988
12
6¾
FINANCE ACCOUNTS OF IRELAND, FOR THE YEAR ENDED FIFTH OF JANUARY, 1808.
I.—PUBLIC
HEADS OF REVENUE.
Gross Receipt within the Year.
Total Receipt to be Accounted for.
Re-payments, Drawbacks, Discounts, &c.
Charges of Management.
Ordinary Revenues:
£.
s.
d.
£.
s.
d.
£.
s.
d.
£.
s.
d.
Customs
2,452,765
17
1½
5,772,065
19
8⅛
181,778
4
8
239,121
5
2½
Excise
2,306,455
4
11⅜
67,980
15
2
185,539
5
3
Stamps
594,154
10
9¼
720,076
0
11
16,226
14
11¾
30,279
3
9½
Post Office
158,749
6
3
177,257
18
2½
17,477
9
1
73,723
15
9½
Poundage Fees
26,934
14
4¼
26,934
14
4¼
Pells Fees
5,386
19
1¾
5,386
19
1¾
Duty on Wrought Plate
2,898
12
4½
2,898
12
4½
Casualties
4,324
11
0
4,324
11
0
Total Ordinary Revenues
5,551,669
15
11⅝
6,708,944
15
8⅛
283,463
3
10¾
528,663
10
0½
Extraordinary Resources:
Gain by Exchange on Sums received from Great Britain
15,973
10
4½
15,973
10
4½
Commissioners of the Navy on account of Advances by Collectors in Ireland, for Seamen's Wages, &c.
39,459
2
8¼
39,459
2
8¼
From Great Britain, on Account of the Profit of Lotteries
224,904
10
3¼
224,904
10
3¼
From several County Treasurers, paid to several Revenue Collectors, on Account of Advances made by the Treasury for enrolling the Militia
2,925
6
9
18,405
17
6
From several County Treasurers, paid to several Revenue Collectors, on Account of Deficiencies in the Army of Reserve
140
0
0
9,115
8
5
Other Monies paid to the Public
49,120
3
3¾
49,120
3
3¾
Appropriated Duties for Local Objects.
Linen Manufacture
1,600
0
8
3,529
15
10½
774
9
6
Improvement of Dublin
9,518
18
0
10,476
11
1
12
2
0
Repairs of the Royal Exchange and Commercial Buildings
1,652
5
0
2,071
19
2
Lagan Navigation
3,476
2
10
3,614
11
0¾
1,321
13
4
107
14
2½
Inns of Court
1,111
10
0
1,111
10
0
Total independent of the Loan.
5,901,551
5
10⅜
7,086,727
15
5⅛
285,571
13
8¾
528,771
4
3
Loans paid into the Exchequer in the Year ended the 5th o January 1808
2,977,747
4
9
2,977,747
4
9
Grand Total
8,879,298
10
7⅜
10,064,475
0
2⅛
285,571
13
8¾
528,771
4
3
CLASS
I. PUBLIC INCOME.
II. CONSOLIDATED FUND.
III. ARREARS AND BALANCES.
IV. TRADE AND NAVIGATION.
V. PUBLIC EXPENDITURE.
VI. PUBLIC FUNDED DEBT.
VII. UNFUNDED DEBT.
VIII. DISPOSITION OF GRANTS.
INCOME
Total Payments out of the Gross Revenue.
Net Produce, applicable to National Objects, and to Payments into the Exchequer.
Payments on Account of Militia, Deserters, Straggling Seamen, Army of Reserve, and Fortification Compensation.
Bounties for promoting the Fisheries, Linen Manufacture, &c
Total Payments out of the Net Produce.
Payments into the Exchequer.
£.
s.
d.
£.
s.
d.
£.
s.
d.
£.
s.
d.
£.
s.
d.
£.
s.
d.
420,899
9
10½
5,097,646
9
4⅝
25,940
0
9
25,940
0
9
1,976,961
6
1¾
253,520
0
5
76,886
2
2
101,345
5
6¾
178,231
5
4¾
1,765,466
4
2¾
46,505
18
9¼
673,570
2
1¾
564,624
15
10
91,201
4
10½
86,056
13
4
71,392
17
2
26,934
14
4¼
26,934
14
4¼
5,386
19
1¾
5,386
19
1¾
2,898
12
4½
2,898
12
4½
4,324
11
0
4,324
11
0
812,126
13
11¼
5,896,818
1
8⅞
76,886
2
2
127,285
4
1¾
204,171
6
3¾
4,417,990
0
2¾
15,973
10
4½
15,973
10
4½
39,459
2
8¼
39,459
2
8¼
224,904
10
3¼
224,904
10
3¼
18,405
17
6
1,007
13
0
9,115
8
5
4,700
1
4½
49,120
3
3¾
49,120
3
3¾
774
9
6
2,755
6
4½
1,745
15
4½
12
2
0
10,464
9
1
10,226
2
2
2,071
19
2
1,535
17
0
1,429
12
6½
2,184
18
6¼
1,413
8
1
1,111
10
0
1,111
10
0
814,342
17
11¾
6,272,384
17
5⅜
76,886
2
2
127,285
4
1¾
204,171
6
3
4,769,187
13
10½
2,977,747
4
9
2,977,747
4
9
314,342
17
11¾
9,250,132
2
2⅜
76,886
2
2
127,285
4
1¾
204,171
6
3
7,746,934
18
7½
II.—CONSOLIDATED FUND.
INCOME.
ACTUAL PAYMENTS.
CHANGE.
£.
s.
d.
£.
s.
d.
£.
s.
d.
Balance on the Consolidated Fund remaining in the Exchequer, on the 5th January 1807
514,097
6
0¼
Interest on Funded Debt, including Annuities and Management
2,653,973
8
3¼
2,670,765
0
2¾
Interest on Unfunded Debt
9,890
8
2
9,913
11
8½
Custom and Excise Duties, including Quit Rents and Payments by dismissed Collectors
3,742,427
10
4¼
Sinking Fund and Management
705,103
13
1¼
705,103
13
1¼
Stamp Duties
564,624
15
10
Principal of Debentures
2,225
0
0
Post Office Revenue
71,392
17
2
Principal of Exchequer Bills
658
6
8
Duty on Wrought Plate
2,898
12
4½
Lottery Prizes
353
0
0
27,027
0
0
Poundage Fee
26,934
14
4¼
Discount on Prompt Payment of Loan Deposites, &c.
12,577
3
11
12,577
3
11
Pells Fee
5,386
19
1¾
Inland Navigations
35,098
11
6
35,098
11
6
4,927,762
15
3
Improving the Harbour on the North Side of the Hill of Howth
4,000
0
0
10,000
0
0
Repayment from Great Britain of Advances for Seamen's Wages
39,459
2
8¼
Repayments of Fines levied on Parishes for Deficiencies in their Proportion of Men for Army of Reserve
4,560
1
4½
7,140
1
4½
From several County Treasurers on Account of Advances made by their Treasury for enrolling Militia
1,007
13
0
3,425,556
6
4
3,480,508
8
6
More for Fines levied on Parishes for Deficiencies in the Proportion of Men for the Army of Reserve
4,700
1
4½
Civil List
149,642
3
0
145,000
0
0
pensions
89,639
6
2½
Permanent Parliament Payments
138,612
18
11¾
From Commissioners for paving the Streets of Dublin, so much issued to the late Commissions pursuant to 46 Geo. III. c.68
15,309
5
6½
Military Purpose
3,929,878
19
2
Unascertained.
Vote of Credit
90,455
6
5¾
Gain by Exchange on Sums received from Great Britain
15,973
10
4½
Annual Grants
473,099
2
8
Other Monies paid to the Public
38,135
8
9¼
8,346,384
2
10
Unascertained.
EXTRAORDINARY RESOURCES:
On Account of Loans
2,977,747
4
9
On Exchequer Bills
400,000
0
0
SURPLUS of Consolidated Fund on 5th January 1808
298,115
9
2¼
From Great Britain, for ½ of Profit on the 2d, 3d, and 4th Lotteries for 1806 and the 1st for 1807.
224,904
10
3¼
8,644,999
12
0¼
8,644,999
12
0¼
III.—ARREARS AND BALANCES.
£.
s.
d.
Balances due on the 5th January 1808, from the Collectors of Customs
50,941
13
⅝
Balances due on the 5th January 1808, of Excise
113,033
8
7¾
Hearth-money Collectors' Balances
59,080
17
5¼
IV.—TRADE AND NAVIGATION.
Value of
and
for Three Years.
OFFICIAL VALUE OF
OFFICIAL VALUE of Imports.
Irish Products and Manufactures Exported.
Foreign and Colonial Merchandize Exported.
£.
s.
d.
£.
s.
d.
£.
s.
d.
Year ending 5th January 1806
5,736,214
10
4
5,059,867
13
10
142,481
4
6
Year ending 5th January 1807
5,605,964
16
1
5,030,722
15
10
157,443
2
11
Year ending 5th January 1808
6,637,907
16
7¼
5,307,806
16
4
150,370
3
8½
Note.—The real Value of Irish produce and Manufactures exported in the Year ending the 5th Jan. 1808, computed at the Average Prices current, was £.10,110,385. 3
s.
d.
Number of
with the Amount of their
built and registered in the several Ports of
in Three Years.
VESSELS.
TONNAGE.
Year ending 5th January 1806
23
1,212
Year ending 5th January 1807
41
1,687
Year ending 5th January 1808
33
1,838
Number of
with the Amount of their
and Number of
and
usually employed in Navigating the same, that belonged to the Ports of
on the
th Day of September in the Years
and
respectively.
VESSELS.
TONNAGE.
MEN.
On the 30th September 1805
1,067
56,755
5,062
On the 30th September 1806
1,076
55,545
5,081
On the 30th September 1807
1,098
56,902
5,217
Number
with the Amount of their
&c. that entered
and cleared
in the Ports of
from or to all Parts of the World, in the Three Years ending the
th of January
INWARDS.
IRISH.
BRITISH.
FOREIGN.
Years ending 5th January
SHIPS.
TONS.
MEN.
SHIPS.
TONS.
MEN.
SHIPS.
TONS.
MEN.
1806
1,276
91,290
6,230
6,139
580,752
33,775
545
82,420
5,539
1807
1,497
102,163
7,049
6,687
630,368
36,318
498
80,001
5,055
1808
1,503
107,733
7,231
6,836
652,946
36,539
461
78,533
4,574
OUTWARDS.
Years ending 5th January
1806
1,172
90, 173
6,077
5,442
535,761
30,648
521
77,783
4,910
1807
1,353
97,162
6,754
5,888
574,688
32,441
522
83, 048
5,139
1808
1,320
97,856
6,797
6,294
615,702
34,651
418
72,662
4,130
V.—PUBLIC EXPENDITURE.
£.
s.
d.
£.
s.
d.
£.
s.
d.
I.
Interest on the Funded Debt of Ireland, including Annuities for Lives and Terms of Years; also 1 per Cent. for the Reduction of the Capital created by Loans since 1797, (A. 1 & 2)
3,258,445
1
11¾
For Charge of Management thereon.
32,996
11
0¾
There was also applied towards the Reduction of the National Debt, the Annual Issue of
67,635
8
4
3,326,080
10
3¾
Whereof was applied, towards the Reduction of the National Debt
954,045
8
1¾
Total on Account of Interest
2,372,035
2
2
Total, for Charge of Management
32,996
11
0¾
Total, on Account of the Reduction of the National Debt
954,045
8
1¾
3,359,077
1
4½
II.
Interest on Exchequer Bills, (B.)
9,890
8
2
III.
Issues for Purposes appointed by the Parliament of Ireland prior to the Union, &c. (C.)
17,490
5
3½
IV.
Issues from Appropriated Funds for Local Purposes (D.)
15,110
2
0
V.
Civil List
149,642
3
0
Pensions
89,659
6
2½
Other Permanent Charges, (E)
188,612
18
11¾
427,894
8
2¼
VI.
Payments in Anticipation of Exchequer Receipts; viz.
Bounties
127,285
4
1¾
Militia, Army of Reserve, Deserters' Warrants, &c. (F 1 & 2.)
76,886
2
2
204,171
6
3¾
Ordnance. (G.)
519,184
4
6½
VIII.
Army.—Ordinary Service; viz.
Regulars, Militia, and Volunteer Corps
2,427,534
14
3
Barracks
371,134
0
3
Staff Officers, and Officers of Garrisons
68,303
5
4½
Half Pay Supernumerary and Retired Officers
25,787
6
0¼
Officers Widows
4,628
15
5¼
Royal Hospital, Kilmainham
40,315
13
4¾
Public Offices, their Deputies, Clerks, and Contingent Expences, (H.)
9,466
14
8¼
2,947,170
9
5
Extraordinary Services
463,524
5
2½
3,410,694
14
7½
IX.
Miscellaneous Services, (I.)
512,197
14
2
Lastly. Vote of Credit, (K.)
90,455
6
5¾
£.
8,566,165
11
1¾
(A. 1.)—MONIES
paid out of the Receipt of the Exchequer, in the Year ending the
th Jan.
towards defraying the Charge of the
of
Interest and Annuities for Lives and Terms of Years, &c.
Charge of Management.
£.
s.
d.
£.
s.
d.
Interest, &c. on the Funded Debt of Ireland
3,258,445
1
11¾
32,996
11
0¾
32,996
11
0¾
3,291,441
13
0½
Annual Issue for the Reduction of the National Debt
67,635
8
4
£.
3,359,077
1
4½
(A. 2.)—
Total Amount of the Sums actually received by the Commissioners for the Reduction of the
in the Year ending
th January
In Great Britain.
In Ireland.
£.
s.
d.
£.
s.
d.
Annual Issue
67,635
8
4
Expired Annuities
2,250
0
0
Appropriation of 1 per Cent. per Annum on Loans since 1797
498,286
16
8¼
136,337
2
9
498,286
16
8¼
206,222
11
1
Interest on Debt of Ireland redeemed
150,440
1
10½
99,095
18
6
648,726
18
6¾
305,318
9
7
305,318
9
7
954,045
8
1¾
(B.)—
Interest on
with the Payments made in the Year from the
th Jan.
to
th January
£.
s.
d.
There remained Interest on Exchequer Bills unclaimed on the 5th January 1807
23
3
6½
Charge for Interest
on
£.
7,479
9
0
on
£.
2,410
19
2
9,913
11
8½
Deduct Interest unclaimed on the 5th January 1808
23
3
6½
Total Payments for Interest on Exchequer Bills, in the Year to the 5th January 1806
£.
8
2
(C.)—
Payments made in the Year ending
th January
for Purposes appointed by the Parliament of
prior to the Union, &c.
£.
s.
d.
For Lottery Prizes
353
0
0
Discount on Prompt Payment of Loan Deposits, &c.
12,577
3
11
Repayment of fines levied in Parishes for Deficiencies in their Proportion of Men for the Army of Reserve
4,560
1
4½
£.
5
3½
(D.)—
Payments made from the
appropriated for local Purposes in
from the
th Jan.
to the
th Jan.
£.
s.
d.
Linen and Hempen Manufacture
2,755
4
9
Lagan Navigation
1,413
8
1
Improving Dublin
8,696
2
2
Inns of Courts
929
10
0
Royal Exchange and Commercial Buildings
1,315
17
0
£.
2
0
(E.)—
Payments in the Year to the
th Jan.
under the several Heads of Civil List, Pensions, and other Permanent Charges.
£.
s.
d.
Arrear on the Civil List on the 5th January 1807
39,395
15
6¾
Charge for the Civil List, for One Year to 25th December 1807
145,000
0
0
184,395
15
6¾
Deduct Arrear on the 5th January 1808
34,753
12
6¾
Issues to the Civil List in One Year to the 5th January 1808
149,642
3
0
Pensions
89,639
6
2½
Other Permanent Charges; viz.
Public Infirmaries
3,425
0
0
Public Coal Yards
524
18
11½
Army Baggage
17,418
6
9¾
Police Establishment
15,930
1
6½
Inspector General of Prisons
200
0
0
Transportation of Felons
1,215
5
2
Fees on Auditing Treasury Accounts
888
13
2¼
Imprest Office
2,600
0
0
Secret Service in detecting Treasonable Conspiracies
7,216
9
9½
Annuities and Compensation Allowances
106,457
9
2½
Judges additional Salaries, &c.
30,769
16
1¾
Commission of Enquiry
1,350
0
0
Board of Education
281
17
11
Lottery Expences
335
0
3
188,612
18
11¾
£.
427,894
8
2¾
(F. 1.)—
Amount of
paid out of the Public Revenue, in the Year ending the
th Jan.
being Payments in the Nature of Anticipation of Exchequer Receipt.
£.
s.
d.
On Linen Exported
11,184
0
10
Fishing Vessels
7,028
0
0
Bark imported
6,111
3
9½
Irish Coals brought Coastways to Dublin
51
4
0
Irish cured Fish exported
146
1
5½
Irish Fish Oil exported
56
19
2
Fish imported
1,196
6
6
Corn exported
166
5
0
To Distillers
101,121
2
8¾
Spirit Retailers
224
0
8
£.
4
1¾
(F. 2.)—
Amount of Payments to the
&c. in the Year ended
th January
£.
s.
d.
Militia
58,814
8
1
Army of Reserve
7,718
8
9
Deserters Warrants
842
0
0
Fortification Compensation
918
12
0
Compensation to Revenue Collection in lieu of Fees on Licences
8,592
13
4
£.
2
2
(G.)—
Monies paid to the Office of
in the Year to the
th January
Payments to the Ordnance for the Grant of 1807
£.
4
6½
(H.)—
Monies paid on Account of his Majesty's Forces in
in the Year ending the
th January
£.
s.
d.
£.
s.
d.
Regiments of the Line
1,262,530
0
0¾
Militia
881,835
9
0
Volunteer Corps
268,073
12
6
Military Hospitals
9,773
14
2¼
Royal Military Infirmary
3,288
11
6¼
Officiating and Retired Chaplains
2,033
6
11¼
2,427,534
14
3
Barracks
371,134
0
3
Staff Officers and Officers of Garrisons
68,303
5
4½
Half Pay, Supernumerary, and Retired Officers
25,787
6
0¼
Officers' Widows
4,628
15
5¼
Royal Hospital, Kilmainham
40,315
13
4¾
Public Officers, their Deputies, Clerks, and Incidental Expences
9,466
14
8¼
2,947,170
9
5
Extraordinary Service
463,524
5
2½
£.
3,410,694
14
7½
(I.)—
Payments in the Year ending the
th January
for
£.
s.
d.
Public Officers for several Services
1,780
0
0
Public Hospital and Schools
130,776
0
0
Miscellaneous Services
145,443
2
8
Public Boards
58,100
0
0
Commissioners for Paving, &c. the Streets of Dublin
137,000
0
0
Improving the Harbour on the North Side of the Hill of Howth, near Dublin
4,000
0
0
Inland Navigation
35,698
11
6
£.
14
2
(K.)—
Amount of Payments from the
of
in the Year ending
th Jan.
Amount of Payments from the Vote of Credit
£.
6
5¾
VI. PUBLIC FUNDED DEBT.
PUBLIC FUNDED DEBT,
as the same stood on the 5th January
British currency.
Irish Currency.
£.
s.
d.
£.
s.
d.
Sums raised
49,618,318
16
3
PAYABLE IN DUBLIN:
£.
s.
5,668,472
17
1
£.
227,600
0
0
£.
11,625,450
11
3
PAYABLE IN LONDON:
£.
1,900,000
0
0
2,058,333
6
8
£.
30,099,625
0
0
32,607,927
1
8
£.
16,028,750
0
0
17,364,479
3
4
£.
139,250
0
0
150,854
3
4
£.
300,000
0
0
325,000
0
0
£.
572,000
0
0
619,666
13
4
Annual Interest
2,434,845
5
4
Annuities on Lives or Term of Years
217,626
14
2
Charge of Management
31,788
0
8¾
ANNUAL CHARGE FOR REDUCTION OF NATIONAL DEBT:
Pursuant to Act of 37 Geo. III. for Redemption of Debt then existing
69,885
8
4
By Acts providing 1 per Cent. for Redemption of Debts created since 1797
655,847
4
0
Total of Annual Expences
3,409,992
13
3¾
Total Principal of Funded Debt, on the 5th January 1808
70,647,783
16
8
An Account of the Progress made in the
of the
to the
th of January
£.
s.
d.
Stock redeemed by Sinking Fund
2,492,288
7
7
Total Sums Paid
2,090,664
12
8½
SUMS Annually applicable in Ireland to the REDUCTION of the NATIONAL DEBT.
Annual Income of Loans
206,222
11
1
Annual Interest on Stock Redeemed
113,212
18
3
At the Establishment of the Sinking Fund,
£.
£.
s.
d.
£.
s.
d.
£.
The Money borrowed for Ireland by the Government of Great Britain is not included in the above Statement, being settled for in England by the Lords of the Treasury of Ireland, and can only be procured from the Commissioners for reducing the National Debt of England.
VII.—UNFUNDED DEBT.
An Account of the
and
on the 5th Day of January
LOAN DEBENTURES:
£.
s.
d.
Residue of Debentures bearing 4 per Cent. Interest to the Year 1788, provided for by 27 and 28 Geo. III. but not claimed by the Proprietors; viz
Old Loan
275
0
0
Loan by Lottery 1780
1,220
0
0
Loan by Lottery 1781
730
0
0
(a) 2,225
0
0
EXCHEQUER BILLS:
Outstanding Exchequer Bills, provided for by several Acts of Parliament, but not claimed by the Proprietors:
Payable 24 June 1783
8
6
8
Payable 24 June 1790
50
0
0
Payable 24 June 1791
100
0
0
Payable 24 June 1795
300
0
0
Payable 24 June 1801
50
0
0
Payable 24 June 1803
150
0
0
(a) 658
6
8
Exchequer Bills not in course of Payment till after the 5th January 1808, part of
£.
Payable on or before 28 March 1808
200,000
0
0
Payable on or before 29 September 1808
200,000
0
0
(b) 400,000
0
0
LOTTERY PRIZES:
Outstanding Lottery Prizes of the several Lotteries from 1782 to 1801
(a) 26,674
0
0
Total
£.
6
8
(a) Provision has been made for these Sums by several Acts of Parliament.
(b) To be provided for.
VIII—DISPOSITION OF GRANTS.
An Account, shewing how the
granted for the
of the Year
have been disposed of; so far as relates to
SERVICES.
SUMS Granted.
SUMS Paid.
REMAINS.
FORCES.
£.
s.
d.
£.
s.
d.
£.
s.
d.
Army, with Garrisons and their Incidents (1,078,302. 7. 5. British, part of 4,051,623. 0. 6. Br.)
1,168,225
18
1
Foreign Corps (243,792. 2. 6. Br. part of 832,540. 19. 9. Br.)
264,108
2
8½
Allowance to Non-commissioned Officers and Private men of the Regulars, for small beer, and while on a march (69,428. 11. 11½. Br. part of 467,273. 3. 11. Br.)
75,214
6
3½
Recruiting and Contingencies (124,481. 15. 3. Br. part of 277,249. 0. 10. Br.)
134,855
4
10½
1,268,528
14
10¼
373,874
17
1¼
SUMS Granted.
SUMS Paid.
REMAINS.
£.
s.
d.
£.
s.
d.
£.
s.
d.
Militia, Pay, &c. (849,081. 7. 7. Br. part of 2,493,644. 7.5. Br.)
919,838
3
3
Allowance to Non-commissioned Officers and Private men for small beer, and while on a march, (57,844. 11. 11½. Br. a further part of 467,273. 3. 11. Br.)
62,664
19
7½
Contingencies (22,153. 17. 0. Br. part of (62,153. 17. 0. Br.)
24,000
0
0
881,835
9
0
124,667
13
10½
Volunteer Corps, (830,301. 4. 8. Br. part of 1,490,301. 4. 8. Br.)
899,493
0
0
268,073
12
6
631,419
7
6
General and Staff Officers, and Officers of the Hospitals, serving with the Forces (57,594. 14. 0. Br. part of 190,529. 17. 6. Br.)
62,394
5
2
62,304
10
7
89
14
7
Full-pay to Supernumerary Officers of His Majesty's Forces, (1,029. 19. 5. part of 34,418. 11.0. Br.)
1,115
16
1
986
12
6
129
3
7
The principal Officers of several public Departments, their Deputies, Clerks, and Contingent Expences (8,897. 6. 6. Br. part of 221,200. 18. 5. Br.)
9,638
15
4½
9,466
14
8¼
172
0
8¼
Half-Pay to Reduced Officers of his Majesty's Land Forces, (26,982. 1. 9. Br. part of 186,982. 1. 9. Br.)
29,230
11
11
24,482
4
8
4,748
7
3
Military Allowances to Reduced Officers of His Majesty's Land Forces (533. 1. 2. Br. part of 5,533. 1. 2. Br.)
577
9
7
318
8
10¼
259
0
8¾
In and Out Pensioners of the Royal Hospital near Kilmainham, and Expences of said Hospital (46,977. 9. 4. Br. part of 406,383. 7.5. Br.)
50,892
5
1½
40,315
13
4¾
10,576
11
8¾
Pensions to Widows of Officers of the Land Forces, and expences attending the same (6,000 0. 0. Br. part of 43,258. 7. 6. Br.)
6,500
0
0
4,628
15
5¼
1,871
4
6¼
General Hospital Expences of His Majesty's Forces in Ireland, including Medicaments, for General and Regimental Hospitals, and the Charge of the Royal Military Infirmary, Dublin, for Sick and Wounded Soldiers (18,461. 10. 10. Br.)
20,000
0
0
13,062
5
8½
6,937
14
3
Retired and Officiating Chaplains of His Majesty's Forces (3,208. 15. 11. Br. part of 18,208. 15. 11. Br.)
3,476
3
11
2,033
6
11¾
1,442
16
11¼
Barrack Department in Ireland (469,450. 12. 6. Br.)
508,571
10
2½
371,134
0
3
137,437
9
11½
Extraordinary Services of the Army in Ireland (600,000. 0. 0. Br.)
650,000
0
0
463,524
5
2½
186,475
14
9½
ORDNANCE:
Office of Ordnance in Ireland, for the Year 1807 (479,246. 19. 7. Br.)
519,184
4
6½
519,184
4
6½
PUBLIC OFFICERS for several SERVICES:
S. Moore, esq. Ace. Gen. for his extraordinary trouble and Expence in preparing and stating the Public Accounts of Ireland, laid before Parliament, in 1807
340
0
0
340
0
0
J. Smart, esq. Dep. Ace. Gen. for his extraordinary trouble in preparing the Public Accounts of Ireland, for the year ending 5th Jan. 1807
240
0
0
240
0
0
P. Le Bas, esq. Examinator of Corn Bounties, for his trouble in keeping the Accounts of said Office
200
0
0
200
0
0
R. Marshall, esq. Inspector Gen. of Imports and Exports, for his expence and trouble in preparing the Accounts of the Imports and Exports of Ireland, for Parliament, for one year ending 5th Jan. 1807
250
0
0
250
0
0
SUMS Granted.
SUMS Paid.
REMAINS.
£.
s.
d.
£.
s.
d.
£.
s.
d.
Hugh B. Hautenville, esq. First Clerk in the Office of the Inspector General of Imports and Exports in Ireland, for his extraordinary trouble in preparing Accounts for Parliament
200
0
0
200
0
0
Geo. Hatton, esq. Examinator of Excise, for his extraordinary trouble and expence in preparing Accounts for Parliament
200
0
0
200
0
0
Sam. Hood, esq. Assistant Examinator of Excise, for his extraordinary trouble in preparing Accounts for Parliament
150
0
0
150
0
0
Tho. Haffield, esq. Clerk in the Office of the Auditor of the Exchequer, for his extraordinary trouble in preparing Accounts for Parliament
200
0
0
200
0
0
MISCELLANEOUS SERVICES, from 5th Jan. 1807 to 5th Jan. 1808.
Expence of Civil Buildings
25,000
0
0
25,000
0
0
Expence of Printing and Binding 250 copies of the Acts of the 47th of his present Majesty
1,200
0
0
1,058
16
11½
141
3
0½
Expence of publishing Proclamations and Advertisements in the Dublin Gazette, and other Newspapers
10,500
0
0
10,500
0
0
Charge of Printing, Stationary, and other Disbursements of the Chief and Under Secretaries Offices and Apartments, and other Public Offices, in Dublin Castle, &c. and for the Riding charges and other expences of the Deputy Pursuivants and extra Messengers attending said Offices
21,208
0
0
21,208
0
0
Expence of Criminal Prosecutions, and other Law Expences of Government
25,000
0
0
25,000
0
0
Expence of apprehending Public Offenders in Ireland
2,500
0
0
1,925
17
5½
574
2
6½
Support of the Non-conforming Ministers in Ireland
9,429
18
0
9,429
18
0
Expence of Pratique, in the Port of Dublin
1,047
10
2
1,047
10
2
Expenditure at His Majesty's Gold Mine at Croaghan, in the County of Wicklow
600
0
0
600
0
0
Charge of Incidents of the Treasury in Ireland
6,000
0
0
6,000
0
0
Charge for Clothing His Majesty's Heralds, Pursuivants at Arms, and State Trumpeters, for 3 years, from the 17th March 1807
1,086
0
0
1,086
0
0
Charge of Clothing the Battle-Axe Guards, for 18 months, commencing 1st June 1807
740
0
0
740
0
0
To enable His Majesty to make some allowance to the Commissioners appointed to enquire into the Fees, Gratuities, Perquisites, and Emoluments received in certain Public Offices in Ireland (22,500 British).
24,375
0
0
24,375
0
0
Expence attending the several Commissions for taking and receiving Evidence in Petitions against Returns to Parliament, in the Year 1807
3,408
0
0
3,408
0
0
Salaries of the Commissioners for granting Lottery Licences, their Secretary and Clerks, and the Comptroller and Inspector of Lottery Offices in Ireland, for two years to 24 June 1807, and for paying the Salaries of the Commissioners for certifying Outstanding Lottery Prizes, for 22 Months ending 24 June 1807
6,330
0
0
6,295
4
1
37
15
11
Erection and Completion of a Pier in Dundrum Bay on the Coast of the County of Down
7,771
16
0
7,771
16
0
SUMS Granted.
SUMS Paid.
REMAINS.
£.
s.
d.
£.
s.
d.
£.
s.
d.
PUBLIC BOARDS, from 5th Jan. 1807, to 5th Jan. 1808.
The Trustees of the Linen and Hempen Manufactures, for one year to the 5th January 1807
21,600
0
0
21,600
0
0
The Board of First Fruits; for building new Churches, and re-building old Churches, in such Parishes as no Public Service has been performed in for 20 years past, and for the encouragement of building Glebe Houses
5,000
0
0
5,000
0
0
The Dublin Society, for promoting Husbandry and other useful Arts in Ireland,
£.
£.
12,000
0
0
12,000
0
0
Expence of the Farming Society of Ireland
5,000
0
0
5,000
0
0
Paving, Cleansing, and Lighting the Streets of Dublin
10,000
0
0
10,000
0
0
Commissioners for making wide and convenient Streets in Dublin
4,500
0
0
4,500
0
0
PUBLIC HOSPITALS and SCHOOLS from 5th Jan. 1807, to 5th Jan. 1808.
Charge of the incorporated Society in Dublin, for promiting English Protestant Schools in Ireland
23,270
0
0
23,270
0
0
Expence of the Foundling Hospital in Dublin
22,500
0
0
22,500
0
0
Charge of the Hibernian Marine Society in Dublin
1,609
0
0
1,609
0
0
Expence of the Hibernian School for Soldiers Children
11,626
0
0
11,626
0
0
Charge of the Female Orphan House near Dublin
1,306
0
0
1,306
0
0
Expences incurred by the Association for discountenancing Vice, and promoting the Knowledge and Practice of the Christian Religion
1,262
0
0
1,262
0
0
Towards supporting the Westmorland Lock Hospital in Dublin
7,957
0
0
7,957
0
0
Towards the Charge of supporting the House of Industry and Penitentiary in Dublin
25,997
0
0
25,997
0
0
Expence of maintaining 80 Patients in the House of Recovery and Fever Hospital in Cork Street Dublin
3,092
0
0
3,092
0
0
Charge of the Lying-in Hospital, Dublin
2,533
0
0
2,533
0
0
Charge of the Office of the Commissioners of Charitable Donations and Bequests
400
0
0
400
0
0
Charge of the Roman Catholic Seminary in Ireland
13,000
0
0
13,000
0
0
Towards defraying the Expence of Dr. Steven's Hospital
503
0
0
503
0
0
Expence of building the intended Hall for the Royal College of Surgeons in Ireland
9,517
0
0
9,517
0
0
For finishing Sir Patrick Dunn's Hospital, and defraying the Expence of a temporary Establishment and maintenance of Patients
6,204
0
0
6,204
0
0
To the Commissioners for paving the Streets of Dublin
137,000
0
0
137,000
0
0
£.
5,883,833
0
11
4,402,978
1
10
1,480,854
19
1
END OF THE FINANCE ACCOUNTS FOR 1808.
An Account of all
granted to
in respect of the
on
in the various
of Great Britain, and on the
of the East India and South Sea Companies, under the
for the year ending
th April,
Exemptions on Dividends, payable on the 5th July 1807.
PRINCIPAL.
DIVIDEND.
DUTY.
£.
s.
d.
£.
s.
d
£.
s.
d.
3-per-Cent. Consolidated Annuities
11,987,705
1
1
179,805
4
10
17,980
0
9
East India Stock
468,165
13
10
24,578
5
3
2,457
12
2
South Sea Stock
1,158,329
1
3
20,270
12
1
2,026
16
10
New South Sea Annuities
528,262
14
11
7,923
12
6
792
2
7
5-per-Cent. Navy Annuities
220,640
13
1
5,511
9
5
550
18
3
Irish Tontine
8,020
12
4
4,010
6
2
400
18
4
South Sea Annuities 1751
165,419
12
5
2,481
5
7
247
19
9
3-per-Cent. Annuities 1726
87,241
12
10
1,308
12
2
130
15
8
3-per-Cent. Imperial Annuities
76,176
19
0
1,142
13
0
114
2
10
Exchequer Annuities
2,057
10
0
1,028
15
0
102
17
6
Imperial Annuities
1,152
3
0
576
1
6
57
12
1
248,637
17
6
24,861
16
9
Exemptions on Dividends, payable on the 5th January 1808:
3-per-Cent. Consolidated Annuities
11,210,757
19
0
168,160
15
9
16,815
11
8
East India Stock
436,608
11
0
22,921
18
0
2,291
17
8
South Sea Stock
1,111,928
12
4
19,458
12
11
1,945
13
4
New South Sea Annuities
513,803
9
6
7,706
18
8
770
10
4
5-per-Cent. Navy Annuities
185,521
15
11
4,637
18
7
463
2
5
South Sea Annuities, 1751
155,768
4
0
2,336
9
11
233
12
0
3-per-Cent. Annuities, 1726
82,825
13
1
1,242
7
5
124
3
2
3-per-Cent. Imperial Annuities
74,078
11
9
1,111
3
6
111
2
1
Imperial Annuities
1,237
2
0
618
11
0
61
17
1
Irish Tontine
235
17
6
117
13
9
11
15
3
Exchequer Annuities
19
0
0
9
10
0
0
19
0
228,321
19
6
22,830
4
0
Exemptions on Dividends, payable on 10th October 1807:
3-per-Cent. Reduced Annuities
2,193,280
9
3
32,898
15
8
3,289
8
8
4-per-Cent. Annuities
821,314
11
10
16,426
3
6
1,642
9
1
Old South Sea Annuities
512,949
2
10
7,694
3
3
769
5
0
Long Annuities
6,174
2
6
3,087
0
11
308
8
9
Short Annuities
4,631
19
5
2,315
19
8
231
11
4
Irish 5-per-Cent. Annuities
61,200
0
0
1,530
0
0
153
0
0
5-per-Cent. Annuities, 1797
35,056
4
3
876
9
6
87
7
11
Irish Annuities
330
18
10
165
10
5
16
10
9
Exchequer Annuities
4
15
0
2
7
6
0
4
9
64,996
10
5
6,498
6
3
Exemptions on Dividends, payable on 5th April 1808:
3-per-Cent. Reduced Annuities
2,023,599
7
0
30,353
15
8
3,034
19
10
4-per-Cent. Annuites
724,011
17
2
14,479
13
3
1,447
17
2
Old South Sea Annuities
495,207
5
8
7,427
19
9
742
13
9
Long Annuities
4,932
15
7
2,466
7
6
246
8
1
Irish 5-per-Cent. Annuities
50,170
0
0
1,254
5
0
125
8
6
5-per-Cent. Annuities, 1797
3,962
11
4
990
12
10
99
0
6
5-per-Cent. Annuities, 1797
33,084
14
11
827
1
5
82
10
10
Irish Annuities
331
0
8
165
10
4
16
10
9
Exchequer Annuities
—
—
—
57,965
5
9
5,795
9
5
Total Amount of Exemptions on Dividends in each Quarter,
£.
s.
d.
£.
s.
d.
5th July
1807
24,861
16
9
59,985
16
5
5th January
1808
22,830
4
0
10th October
1807
6,498
6
3
5th April
1808
5,795
9
5
LIST OF PUBLIC ACTS,
Passed in the Second Session of the Fourth Parliament of the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Ireland.—
th of George III.
CAP. 1. AN act for regulating the issuing and paying off of Exchequer Bills.
2. An act for continuing to his majesty certain duties on Malt, Sugar, Tobacco, and Snuff, in Great Britain; and on Pensions and Offices in England; and for repealing so much of certain acts as relate to certain duties of Sixpence and One Shilling respectively on Offices and Pensions; and for regranting the said duties of Sixpence and One Shilling respectively, and the said other duties, for the service of the year 1808.
3. An act for empowering the Governor and Company of the Bank of England to advance the sum of Three Millions, towards the Supply for the service of the year 1808.
4. An act to authorize the advancing, for the public service, upon certain conditions, a proportion of the Balance remaining in the Bank of England for payment of Unclaimed Dividends, Annuities, and Lottery Prizes; and for regulating the allowances to be paid for the management of the National Debt.
5. An act for repealing an act made in the 47th year of his present majesty, intituled, 'An act for suspending the operation of an 'act of the 36th year of his present majesty, 'for the further Support and Maintenance 'of Curates within the Church of England, 'and for other purposes in the said act mentioned, so far as relates to the avoidance 'of benefices by the incumbents thereof 'having accepted augmented curacies.'
6. An act to continue, until the end of this session of parliament, several acts for carrying into execution the Treaty of Amity, Commerce, and Navigation, between his majesty and the united states of America.
7. An net for raising the sum of 10,500,000
l.
8. An act to amend an act of the 25th year of his present majesty, for better regulating the office of the Treasurer of his majesty's Navy.
9. An act for abolishing the office of Surveyor of Subsidies and Petty Customs in the port of London.
10. An act to amend so much of an act, made in the 46th year of his present majesty, for granting certain duties on Spirits made in Scotland, as relates to delivering up the licences granted for distilling spirits in the Lowlands of Scotland, and for better preventing Private Distillation.
11. An act for permitting the Importation of Goods from the Portuguese territories on the continent of South America, in Portuguese ships.
12. An act to amend and continue, until the 25th of March 1809, so much of an act of the 47th year of his present majesty as allows certain Bounties on British Plantation Raw Sugar exported.
13. An act for settling and securing a certain Annuity on viscount Lake, and the two next persons to whom the title of viscount Lake shall descend, in consideration of the eminent services of the late general visc. Lake.
14. An act for the regulation of his majesty's Royal Marine Forces while on shore.
15. An act for punishing Mutiny and Desertion; and for the better payment of the Army and their Quarters.
16. An act for further continuing, until the 25th of March 1809, certain Bounties and Drawbacks on the exportation of Sugar from Great Britain; and for suspending the countervailing duties and bounties on Sugar when the duties imposed by an act of the last session of parliament shall be suspended.
17. An act to continue, until the 25th of March 1809, certain acts for regulating the Drawbacks and Bounties on the exportation of Sugar from Ireland, and allowing British Plantation Sugar to be warehoused in Ireland; and for warehousing in Ireland Rum or Spirits of the British sugar plantations.
18. An act for amending and further continuing an act made in the 38th year of his present majesty, for regulating the payment of the duties on Cinnamon, Cloves, Nutmegs, and Mace.
19. An act to continue, until the 25th of March 1810, an act made in the 46th year of his present majesty, for permitting the importation of Masts, Yards, Bowsprits, and Timber, for naval purposes, from the British colonies in North America, duty free.
20. An act to continue, until the 25th of March 1810, several laws relating to the encouragement of the Greenland Whale Fisheries; to the admission to entry in Great Britain of Oil and Blubber of Newfoundland
taken by his majesty's subjects carrying on the fishery from and residing in the said island; and to the allowing the importation of Fish from Newfoundland and the coast of Labrador.
21. An act to empower the Commissioners appointed for distributing the money paid by the united states of America, to withdraw the same from the Bank, and invest it in exchequer bills.
22. An act for making perpetual several laws relating to permitting the exportation of Tobacco Pipe Clay from Great Britain to the British Sugar colonies in the West Indies; the importation of Salt from Europe into Quebec in America; and the prohibiting of foreign-wrought Silks and Velvets.
23. An act to continue several laws relating to the granting a Bounty on the importation into Great Britain of Hemp, and rough and undressed Flax, from his majesty's colonies in America; and to the more effectually encouraging the manufacture of Flax and Cotton in Great Britain until the 25th of March 1810; and for granting a Bounty upon certain species of British and Irish Linens exported from Great Britain, and taking off the duties on importation into Great Britain of foreign Raw Linen Yarns made of Flax, until the 25th of March 1811.
24. An act for further continuing, until three months after the ratification of a definitive treaty of peace, an act made in the 44th year of his present majesty, for permitting the importation into Great Britain, of Hides and other articles in foreign ships.
25. An act for further continuing until the 25th of July 1809, an act made in the 33d year of his present majesty, for rendering the payment of Creditors more equal and expeditious in Scotland.
26. An act for granting to his majesty, until the end of the next session of parliament, Duties of Customs on the goods, wares, and merchandize therein enumerated, in furtherance of the provisions of certain Orders in Council.
27. An act to continue until the 25th of March 1809, an act of the 41st year of his present majesty, for prohibiting the exportation from Ireland, and for permitting the importation into Ireland, duty free, of Corn and other Provisions.
28. An act for granting to his majesty, until the end of the next session of parliament, certain Duties on the exportation from Ireland of goods, wares, and merchandize therein enumerated.
29. An act to prohibit, until the end of the next session of parliament, the exportation of Jesuits Bark and Cotton Wool from Ireland.
30. An act to amend an act made in the parliament of Ireland, in the 33d year of his present majesty, for regulating the Trade of Ireland to and from the East Indies.
31. An act to extend the provisions of an act, made in the 45th year of his present majesty's reign, for preventing the counterfeiting of certain Silver Tokens to certain other Tokens which may be issued by the governor and company of the Bank of Ireland, and to promote the circulation of the said last-mentioned tokens.
32. An act to permit certain Goods imported into Ireland to be warehoused or secured, without the duties due on the importation thereof being first paid.
33. An act to prohibit, until the end of the next session of parliament, the exportation of Jesuits Bark from Great Britain.
34. An act to prohibit, until the end of the next session of parliament, the exportation of Cotton Wool, from Great Britain.
35. An act for imposing, until the end of the next session of parliament, a duty on Cotton Wool, the growth of the British colonies, exported from Great Britain.
36. An act for further continuing, until the 24th of June 1809, an act of the 46th year of his present majesty, for altering and amending several laws relating to the Duties of Excise upon Malt.
37. An act for making valid certain Orders in Council, and Warrants of the Commissioners of the Treasury, for the entry and warehousing of certain goods imported in Neutral Vessels, and for indemnifying all persons concerned therein; for the remitting of Forfeitures in certain cases; and for enabling his majesty to allow, during the continuance of hostilities, and until two months after the commencement of the next session of parliament, the importation of goods from countries from which the British flag is excluded, in any vessels whatever.
38. An act for granting Annuities to satisfy certain exchequer bills.
39. An act for increasing the rates of Subsistence to be paid to inn-keepers and others on quartering Soldiers.
40. An act to indemnify such persons in the United Kingdom as have omitted to qualify themselves for Offices and Employments; and for extending the times limited for those purposes respectively, until the 25th of March 1809, and to permit such persons in Great Britain as have omitted to make and file affidavits of the execution of indentures of Clerks to attornies and solicitors, to make and file the same on or before the 1st day of Hilary term 1809.
41. An act to repeal certain duties of Excise in Ireland, and to grant certain Stamp Duties in lieu thereof; and also certain other Stamp Duties; and to amend the laws relating to the Stamp Duties in Ireland.
42. An act to grant to his majesty certain duties and taxes in Ireland, in respect of Carriages, Dogs, Fire Hearths, Horses, Male Servants, and Windows, in lieu of former duties and taxes, in respect of the like articles.
43. An act to suspend until the 11th of June 1808, the payments on all Draw hacks on Spirits made or distilled in Great Britain or Ireland, and exported from either country to the other respectively.
44. An act to prevent the exportation of Wool to Ireland, before bond given for the due landing thereof.
45. An act for defraying until the 25th of March 1809, the charge of the Pay and Cloathing of the Militia of Ireland; for holding courts martial on Serjeant majors, Serjeants, corporals, and drummers, for offences committed during the time such militia shall not be embodied; and for making allowances in certain cases to subaltern; officers of the said militia during peace.
46. An act for defraying the charge of the Pay and Cloathing of the Militia in Great Britain for the year 1808.
47. An act for quieting possessions and confirming defective Titles in Ireland, and limiting the right of the crown to sue in manner therein mentioned; and for the relief of Incumbents in respect of Arrears due to the crown during the incumbency of their predecessors.
48. An act to enable his majesty's Post Master General of Ireland to purchase premisses for the enlargement of the General Post Office in the city of Dublin.
49. An act for accelerating the making up, examination, and audit, of the Accounts of the Paymaster General of his majesty's Forces.
50. An act to suspend the granting of Offices in Reversion, or for joint lives with benefit of survivorship, for one year after the passing of this act, and from thence until six weeks after the commencement of the then next session of parliament.
51. An act for making Allowances in certain cases to subaltern officers of the Militia in Great Britain, while disembodied.
52. An act to revive and continue, until the 25th of March 1809, and amend so much of an act, made in the 39th and 40th years of his present majesty, as grants certain Allowances to Adjutants and Serjeant-Majors of the Militia of England, disembodied under an act of the same session of parliament.
53. An act for raising the sum of Three Millions by Exchequer Bills, for the service of Great Britain for the year 1808.
54. An act for raising the sum of 1,500,000
l.
55. An act for repealing the duties of Assessed Taxes, and granting new duties in lieu thereof, and certain additional duties to be consolidated therewith; and also for repealing the Stamp Duties on Game Certificates, and granting new duties in lieu thereof, to be placed under the management of the commissioners for the affairs of Taxes.
56. An act for abolishing Fees received by Officers in the service of the Customs on the
several ports of Ireland, and for regulating the hours of attendance and the number of holydays to be observed by the said Officers and certain officers of Excise.
57. An act for increasing the duty on Corks ready-made, imported into Great Britain.
58. An act for amending the law with regard to the course of proceeding on Indictments and Informations in the court of King's Bench in certain cases: for authorizing the execution in Scotland of certain Warrants issued for offences committed in England; and for requiring officers taking bail in the king's suit to assign the bail bonds to the king.
59. An act for enabling his majesty to settle an Annuity on her royal highness the Duchess of Brunswick Wolfenbuttel.
60. An act for repealing an act passed in the 1st year of king James the 1st, intituled, 'An act concerning Tanners, Curriers, Shoe-'makers, and other Artificers occupying the 'cutting of Leather;' and also for repealing and amending certain parts of several other acts of parliament relating thereto.
61. An act to continue until the end of the next session of parliament, an act of the 45th year of his present majesty, for appointing Commissioners to enquire into the Public Expenditure, and the conduct of the public business in the Military departments therein mentioned.
62. An act for the making perpetual several acts for the better collection and security of the revenues of Customs and Excise in Ireland, and for preventing frauds therein; and to make further provision for the security of the said revenues, and for the execution of the several acts relating thereto.
63. An act to amend an act made in the 47th year of his present majesty's reign for securing the collection of the Duties on Auctions in Ireland.
64. An act to amend an act made in the 46th year of his present majesty, for enabling his majesty to accept the services of Volunteers from the Militia of Ireland.
65. An act to make more effectual provision for the building and rebuilding of Churches, Chapels, and Glebe Houses, and for the purchase of Glebe Lands, Glebe Houses, and Impropriations, in Ireland.
66. An act for enforcing the Residence of Spiritual Persons on their benefices in Ireland.
67. An act for granting an additional duty on Copper imported into Great Britain, until the 5th of April 1811, and from thence to the end of the then next session of parliament.
68. An act for extending the Bounty now payable on Pilchards exported to the West Indies or Mediterranean to Pilchards exported to any parts beyond the seas.
69. An act to permit, until the 25th of March 1810, Sugar and Coffee to be exported from his majesty's colonies or Plantations to any port in Europe to the southward of Cape
70. An act to provide that British ships which shall be captured by the enemy, and shall afterwards become the property of British subjects, shall not be entitled to the privilege of British ships.
71. An act to amend so much of two acts of this session of parliament, for carrying into execution certain Orders in Council, as relates to the duties on Goods exported from the warehouses in which they have been secured on importation, and on certain Prize Goods imported into Great Britain or Ireland.
72 An act for the increase and preservation of Timber in Dean and New Forests.
73. An act to improve the Land Revenue of the Crown in England, and also of his majesty's duchy of Lancaster.
74. An act for the better collection of the Duties on Malt made in Great Britain.
75. An act for providing suitable Interment in church-yards or parochial burying grounds in England, for such dead human Bodies as may be cast on shore from the sea, in cases of wreck or otherwise.
76. An act for raising the sum of 10,500,000
l.
77. An act to enable his majesty to vest the right of appointment of Master of the Free School of Londonderry in the city and county of Londonderry, in the bishop of. Deny for the time being.
78. An act to grant to his majesty duties upon Malt made in Ireland, and upon Spirits made or distilled in Ireland; and to allow certain Drawbacks on the Exportation thereof.
79. An act to amend the two acts for the collecting of the Malt Duties in Ireland, and regulating the trade of a Maltster.
80. An act to continue until the 5th of July 1809, and to amend, several acts for granting certain Rates and Duties, and for allowing certain Drawbacks and Bounties on Goods, Wares, and Merchandize imported into and exported from Ireland; and to grant new duties on the importation of East India Sugar and Foreign Spirits; and to reduce the Duty on British Plantation Coffee imported.
81. An act to amend the several acts for the regulating and securing the collection of the Duty on Spirits distilled in Ireland.
82. An act to make perpetual and to amend several acts for the better regulating the issuing and granting of Permits and Certificates, for the conveyance and protection of certain exciseable goods in Ireland.
83. An act for raising the sum of 750,000
l.
84. An act for amending and rendering more effectual an act, passed in the last session of parliament, to make more effectual provision for the prevention of Smuggling, and for regulating the periods for cancelling and delivering up certain Bonds relating to the revenue of Customs.
85. An act to regulate the Trade between Great Britain and the united states of America until the end of the next session of parliament.
86. An act to revive and continue until the 25th of March 1809, an act of the 39th year of his present majesty, for the more effectual encouragement of the British Fisheries.
87. An act for repealing the rates and taxes taken by licensed Hackney Coachmen, and for establishing others in lieu thereof; and for amending several laws relating to Hackney Coaches.
88. An act to restrain the negotiation of Promissory Notes and Inland Bills of Exchange, under a limited sum, in England.
89. An act for enabling the Commissioners appointed to examine Accounts of Public Expenditure in the Barrack Office, more speedily and effectually to investigate the said Accounts.
90. An act to enable the Commissioners for auditing Public Accounts, and the Commissioners for the Affairs of Barracks respectively, to send and receive letters and packets on the business of their offices free of postage.
91. An act for enabling the Commissioners appointed to examine Accounts of Public Expenditures in the West Indies, more speedily and effectually to investigate the said Accounts.
92. An act to repeal so much of an act, made in the 47th year of his present majesty, for charging the sum of 12,200,000
l.
93. An act to repeal so much of an act of the 1st year of king James 1. as relates to the penalties on shooting at Hares; and also to repeal an act of the 3d year of king George I. relating to Game-keepers.
94. An act for repealing so much of an act made in the parliament of Scotland, in the fourth session of the first parliament of queen Anne, intituled, 'Act for preserving the Game,' as relates to the Shooting of Hares.
95. An act for continuing, until the 1st of August 1811, an act of the 45th year of his present majesty, for allowing, under certain restrictions, the bringing a limited quantity of Coals, Culm, or Cinders, to London and Westminster, by inland navigation.
96. An act for the better care and maintenance of Lunatics, being Paupers or Criminals in England.
97. An act to enable the Commissioners of his majesty's Treasury, to issue Exchequer Bills, on the credit of such aids or supplies as have
98. An act for letting to Farm the Duties on Horses hired by the mile or stage, to be used in travelling, and on horses hired for a less period of time than 28 days, for drawing carriages used in travelling post, or otherwise, in Great Britain, and for better securing the said Duties.
99. An act for depositing Prize Goods liable to duty in warehouses under the care of the officers of the Customs and Excise, and for reducing spirits condemned as prize to a proper strength, for home consumption.
100. An act for extending the provisions of an act made in the 47th year of his present majesty, so far as respects the payment of Prize Money arising from captures made by Foreign in conjunction with British ships, to captures made by the land forces of Foreign States in conjunction with the British.
101. An act for extinguishing the right of way over a lane or road leading across the exercising ground in front of Chatham lines, and for vesting the soil thereof in his majesty, his heirs and successors.
102. An act for appointing Commissioners for carrying into execution an act of this session of parliament, for granting to his majesty a Duty on Pensions and Offices in England; and an act made in the 38th year of his present majesty, for granting an aid to his majesty by a Land-Tax, to be raised in Great Britain, for the service of the year 1798.
103. An act for further extending the provisions of several acts, for establishing the Bank of Ireland; and for empowering the governor and company of the said Bank, to advance the sum of 1,250,000
l.
104. An act for the better regulation of Pilots, and of the Pilotage of ships and vessels navigating the British seas.
105. An act to authorize his majesty until the 25th of March 1809, to make regulations respecting the trade and commerce to and from the Cape of Good Hope.
106. An act to remedy the inconvenience which has arisen, and may arise, from the Expiration of Acts, before the passing of Acts to continue the same.
107. An act to enable the Secretary at War to enforce the making of Returns from clerks of subdivisions, and others, in relation to Fines, Half Bounties, and Residues of sums due under certain acts relating to the Defence of the Realm, for the purpose of directing the distribution thereof to the persons entitled thereto.
108. An act for carrying into complete execution and effect certain provisions contained in an act passed in the 43d year of his present majesty, for making compensation to the Patentee Officers of the Pleas side of the Court of Exchequer in Ireland, as far as respects the compensation to John M'Clintock, and William Foster M'Clintock, esqrs. Patentee Officers of the office of Serjeant at arms of the said Court of Exchequer.
109. An act to regulate the Trade between Great Britain and the Portuguese territories, on the continent of South America.
110. An act for the further encouragement and better regulation of the British White Herring Fishery, until the 1st of June 1813, and from thence to the end of the then next session of parliament.
111. An act for enabling his majesty to establish a permanent Local Militia Force, under certain restrictions, for the defence of the realm.
112. An act for raising the sum of 500,000
l.
113. An act to empower Grand Juries in Ireland (or persons appointed by them), to sell or exchange ground that has been occupied by old Court Houses, Gaols, or County Infirmaries, and the materials thereon.
114. An act for raising the sum of Six Millions, by Exchequer Bills, for the service of Great Britain for the year 1808.
115. An act to grant to his majesty countervailing Duties on Spirits imported into Ireland from Scotland; and to allow equivalent Drawbacks on Spirits exported from Ireland to Scotland.
116. An act for granting to his majesty Rates of Postage on the conveyance of Letters and Packets to and from the island of Madeira, and to and from the Portuguese territories on the continent of South America.
117. An act for repealing the Duties upon Silks painted and stained, and for granting other duties in lieu thereof.
118 An act to prohibit the Distillation of Spirits from Corn or Grain, for a limited time.
119. An act for regulating the charging of the duty on Spirits imported into Great Britain, according to the strength thereof.
120. An act for reducing the Excise Duties on Coffee imported into Great Britain, and for directing that coffee and cocoa warehoused shall be subject to the regulations of an act of the 43d year of his present majesty, for permitting certain goods imported to be secured in warehouses.
121. An act for reducing the duty of customs on Coffee imported into Great Britain when taken out of warehouse for home consumption.
122. An act for vesting all estates and property occupied for the Barrack Service in the Commissioners for the Affairs of Barracks; and for granting certain powers to the said commissioners.
123. An act for the discharge of Debtors in execution for Small Debts, from imprisonment in certain cases.
124. An act for continuing the premiums allowed to ships employed in the Southern Whale Fishery.
125. An act to permit the importation of Rice, Grain, and Flour, from any foreign colonies on the continent of America into certain ports in the West Indies, and to allow certain articles to be imported from the united states of America into the British provinces in North America, for the purpose of exportation to the British islands in the West Indies.
126. An act to permit Goods secured in warehouses in the port of London to be removed to the out-ports for exportation to any part of Europe, for empowering his majesty to direct that Licences which his majesty is authorized to grant under his sign manual may be granted by one of the principal secretaries of state; and for enabling his majesty to permit the exportation of goods in vessels of less burthen than are now allowed by law, during the present hostilities, and until one month after the signature of the preliminary articles of peace.
127. An act to render valid certain Marriages solemnized in certain churches and public chapels in which banns had not usually been published before or at the time of passing an act made in the 26th year of the reign of his late majesty king George II. intituled, 'An act for the better 'preventing of clandestine Marriages.'
128. An act to repeal so much of an act, passed in the 45th year of his present majesty, for regulating the office of Paymaster General, as requires certain Accounts to be examined and settled within certain periods, by the Secretary at War, and enabling his majesty to make orders for examining and settling such accounts.
129. An act to repeal so much of an act passed in the 8th year of the reign of queen Elizabeth, intituled, 'An act to take away the 'benefit of Clergy from certain Offenders 'for Felony,' as takes away the benefit of clergy from persons stealing privily from the person of another; and for more effectually preventing the crime of larceny from the person.
130. An act for preventing the Various frauds and depredations committed on merchants, shipowners, and underwriters, by Boatmen and others, within the jurisdiction of the Cinque Ports; and also for remedying of Salvage, under a statute made in the 12th year of the reign of her late majesty queen Anne.
131. An act for further continuing until the 1st of May 1809, an act of the 43d year of his present majesty, for suspending proceedings in actions and other proceedings relating to the Woollen Manufacture.
132. An act to extend provisions of an act, passed in the 45th year of his present majesty, for the encouragement of Seamen and better manning his majesty's Navy, to cases arising in consequence of hostilities commenced since the passing of the said act.
133. An act for enlarging the times appointed for the first Meetings of Commissioners and other persons, for putting in execution certain acts of this session of parliament.
134. An act to amend the laws relating to the making of Bags and Pockets of Hops.
135. An act to amend an act made in the 46th year of his present majesty for more effectually carrying into execution the purposes of an act made in the 39th and 40th year of his majesty, to give further Time for the payment, on the conditions therein mentioned, of Instalments on certain Loans advanced to the houses of Alexander Houston and Co. to Charles Ashwell, esq. and to William Johnstone, esq. being persons connected with and trading to the islands of Grenada and Saint Vincent, so far as relates Grenada and Saint Vincent, so far as relates to the real and personal estates of William Mac Dowall, James Mac Dowall, and Robert Houstoun Rae in the West Indies and elsewhere, except in Scotland.
136. An act to indemnity all officers and persons who have carried into execution any of the provisions of an act passed in the last session of parliament, for completing and increasing the militia of Great Britain, in relation to the Militia of the Tower Hamlets.
137. An act to amend and enlarge the powers of an act of the 46th year of his present majesty, for consolidating and rendering more effectual the several acts for the purchaser of Building and further Improvement of the streets and places near to Westminster Hall and the two houses of parliament.
138. An act for defining and regulating the powers of the Commission of Tiends, in augmenting and modifying the stipends of the clergy of Scotland.
139. An act for granting to his majesty a sum of money to be raised by Lotteries.
140. An act for the more effectual administration of the more effectual prevention of Felonies within the district of Dublin metropolis.
141. An act to amend the acts relating to Duties of Assessed Taxes, and of the Tax upon the profits of Property, Professions, Trades, and Offices, and to regulate the assessment and collection of the same.
142. An act for enabling the Commissioners for the Reduction of the National Debt, to grant Life Annuities.
143. An act to repeal the Stamp Duties on Licences granted by justices of the peace for selling Ale, Beer, and other exciseable liquors by retail; and for granting other Duties in lieu thereof.
144. An act for the more effectual protection of Oyster Fisheries and the brood of Oysters, in England.
145. An act for enabling his majesty to grant Annuities to the Judges of the Court of Session, Justiciary, and Exchequer in Scotland, upon the resignation of their offices.
146. An act for vesting the stock of the Court of Session in Scotland in trustees, for the erecting buildings for the better accommodation of the College of Justice, and a Public Gaol, in the city of Edinburgh, and for other purposes therein mentioned.
147. An act to permit the sale of the Danish prize ship Constantia Maria, and her cargo, in the port of Fowey in the county of Cornwall.
148. An act for granting to his majesty a certain sum of money out of the consolidated fund of Great Britain, and for applying certain monies therein mentioned for the service of the year 1808; and for further appropriating the Supplies granted in this session of parliament.
149. An act for repealing the Stamp Duties on Deeds, Law Proceedings, and other written or printed instruments, and the Duties on Legacies and Successions to personal estate upon intestacies, now payable in Great Britain; and for granting new Duties in lieu thereof.
150. An act for enabling his majesty to establish a permanent Local Militia Force in Scotland, under certain restrictions, for the defence of the realm.
151. An act concerning the administration of Justice in Scotland, and concerning Appeals to the house of lords.
152. An act for granting certain Duties on Worts or Wash made from Sugar during the prohibition of distillation from corn or grain in Great Britain.
PARLIAMENTARY PAPERS.
FIRST REPORT FROM THE COMMITTEE ON THE DISTILLATION OF SUGAR AND MOLASSES.—Ordered to be printed 13th April, 1808.
The Committee appointed to enquire, and report, how far, and under what circumstances, it may be practicable, and expedient to confine the DISTILLERIES of the United Kingdom to the use of SUGAR and MOLASSES only; and also what other provision can be made for the Relief of the GROWERS of SUGAR in the BRITISH WEST INDIA COLONIES; and to report the same, with their Observations and Opinion thereupon, from time to time, to the House:—and who were empowered to report the MINUTES of the EVIDENCE taken before them;
HAVE, pursuant to the orders of the house, examined the matters to them referred; and have agreed to the following Report:
*
YOUR Committee felt it their first duty to examine into the continuance of that severe pressure upon the holders of West India property, and those connected with it, which was so clearly proved before your committee of the last session of parliament.—For this purpose your committee called before them several gentlemen connected with those Islands, and experienced in the colonial trade; these gentlemen fully confirmed the evidence given last year, and proved to the conviction of your committee, that the continuance of the pressure has materially added to its weight.—It appears from accounts laid before your committee, that the price of Sugar has greatly diminished since the year 1799; the average price of 1800, was 65
s.
s.
*
From the ACCOUNTS annexed to this Report, it appears,
Cwts.
THAT the average importation of Sugar into G. Britain, for 5 years, ending with 1785, was
1,579,537
Cwts.
Deduct, exported to Ireland
Annual average
157,217
314,730
Deduct, exported to other parts
157,513
Average annual balance remaining for the consumption of Britain
1,264,807
Add, quantity exported as above to Ireland
157,217
Annual balance remaining for the annual consumption of the empire
1,422,024
The above, is exclusive of the small import into Ireland from the West Indies.
THAT the average importation of Sugar into G. Britain, for 1802 and 1803 (being two years of peace) was
3,741,486
Deduct average export to Ireland
Ann. average
167,267
1,870,025
Deduct average export to other parts
1,702,758
Annual average balance remaining for consumption of Britain
1,871,461
Add, average annual importation into Ireland (direct) for the same period
171,224
Deduct, export from Ireland
1,666
169,558
336,825
Add, quantity exported to Ireland, as above
167,267
Average annual balance remaining for the consultation of the empire
2,208,286
THAT the average importation of Sugar into G. Britain, for four years, from 1804 to 1807, both inclusive (being four years of war) was
3,473,488
Deduct, average annual export to Ireland
174,166
1,145,924
Deduct, average annual export other parts
971,758
Annual average balance remaining for consumption of Britain
2,327,564
Add, average annual importation into Ireland direct from the West Indies, for three years, from 1804 to 1806, both inclusive (the return for 1807 not having been yet received)
135,390
134,928
Deduct, export from Ireland
462
Add, quantity exported to Ireland, as above
174,166
Average annual balance remaining for the consumption of the empire
2,636,658
THAT the quantity of Sugar imported into G. Britain, during the year ending 5th January 1808, was; viz.
From the old British West India islands
3,069,805
3,651,686
From the conquered colonies; viz. Trinidad, Demerara, St. Lucia, Surinam, and Tobago
581,881
Deduct, export to Ireland
233,108
1,363,642
Deduct, export to other parts
1,130,534
Balance remaining for the consumption of Britain
2,288,044
Add, quantity exported to Ireland, as above
233,108
Balance remaining for the consumption of the empire, exclusive of the direct import into Ireland
2,521,152
ABSTRACT of the above STATEMENT.
Annual average Importation into
Great Britain.
Ireland.
Total Importation.
Average annual Exportation to foreign Parts.
Balance remaining for the Consumption of Great Britain and Ireland.
Cwts.
Annual average for 5 years, ending with 1785
1,579,537
1,579,537
157,513
1,422,024
Annual average for 2 years; viz. 1802 & 1803
3,741,486
171,224
3,912,710
1,704,424
2,208,286
Annual average for 4 years; viz. 1804, 1805, 1806, & 1807
3,473,488
135,390
3,603,178
972,220
2,636,658
Imported from the old British islands
3,069,805
3,651,686
3,651,686
1,130,534
2,521,152
Imported from conquered Colonies
581,881
THE preceding Statement shews, that the quantity of Sugar annually consumed in Great Britain and Ireland, upon an average of four years, ending with 1807 inclusive, was
2,636,658
And that the average export from the united empire, during the same period, to foreign parts, was
972,220
That the importation, for the year ending 5th January 1808, not including the quantity imported into Ireland direct, was
3,651,686
Of which the quantity exported to foreign parts was
1,130,534
Leaving, for home consumption
2,521,152
Should there be no export to the continent in the course of 1808, a quantity, equal to what was exported during 1807, as above stated, will be thrown upon the market for home consumption; to which must be added, the quantity of Sugar which may be expected from the Danish islands; and the consequence of such a glut must necessarily be, a very considerable deduction in the price of Sugar, unless an additional vent shall be found at home to take off the surplus.
THE following calculation shews the increased consumption of Sugar in the British empire within the last 22 years; also, a comparative statement of the actual production of the British colonies; and of the surplus production of the British colonies; with the demand for Sugar at the British market for the use of the continent, during the short interval of peace:
Annual consumption of Sugar in Great Britain and Ireland, upon an average of five years, ending with 1785
1,422,024
Annual consumption of Sugar in Great Britain and Ireland, upon an average of four years, ending with 1807
2,636,658
Increased consumption
1,214,634
Average annual import of 1804, 1805, 1806, and 1807, into the united empire, was
3,608,878
Deduct, import from conquered colonies (supposing 1807 to be an average)
581,881
Average annual import from old British colonies
3,026,997
Average annual consumption in G. Britain and Ireland, for the above period
2,636,658
Annual surplus above consumption, from our own colonies
390,339
Average annual export during peace, 1802 and 1803
1,702,758
Average annual superfluity of old British colonies, as above
390,339
Shewing the insufficiency of the present surplus produce of the old British colonies to meet a continental demand, equal to that of the last peace, to be
1,312,419
With a view to apply as speedy a relief as possible to the case thus made out, your Committee proceeded to consider of the expediency of prohibiting the Distilleries of the united kingdom, or any part thereof, from the use of grain, and confining them to that of sugar and molasses. This inquiry involving in it the interests of the revenue, the distillers, and the landholders of the country, your committee have gone through a long and minute investigation, with a view to ascertain how far these interests might severally be affected by the proposed restriction.—It appears from the Evidence of Mr. Jackson, that the revenue received from the English distilleries amounts to near 2,000,000
l.;
d.
s.
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SECOND REPORT FROM THE COMMITTEE ON
THE Committee appointed to enquire, and report, how far, and under what circumstances, it may be practicable and expedient to confine the DISTILLERIES of the United Kingdom to the use of SUGAR and MOLASSES only; and also what other Provision can be made for the Relief of the GROWERS of SUGAR in the BRITISH WEST INDIA COLONIES; and to report the same, with their Observations and Opinion thereupon, from time to time, to the House:—and who were im-
HAVE, pursuant to the order of the house, further examined the matters to them referred; and have come to the following Report: YOUR Committee after having presented their First Report, lost no time in prosecuting the enquiries pointed out to them, in the order by which they were constituted; conceiving that if by legislative encouragement an increased consumption of Rum could be created, material relief would be afforded to the planter, enabling him to diminish the quantity of the inferior sugars now imported, by converting a portion of them into that spirit, their first attention was directed to the most eligible means of accomplishing this object.—Understanding that an extensive trade in foreign spirits is carried on under the protection of licences from the privy council, and of neutral flags, and that thereby a great encouragement is given to a staple commodity of the enemy, while a proportionate discouragement is thrown in the way of the consumption of West India rum, your Committee called before them several persons concerned in the continental trade, with a view to ascertain the fact, and to learn the manner in which the traffic is carried on; and also two gentlemen connected with the boards of customs and excise, fully capable of informing them, whether any loss would accrue to the revenue by prohibiting or discouraging the importation of foreign spirits in future; and how that loss might be compensated, should any such be expected to arise.—It appears, that foreign brandy and geneva are among the enumerated articles, the importation of which is permitted by the general war-order of the king in council. The expences of freight and insurance however are too heavy, and the risk of seizure by our cruizers, and condemnation in our prize courts, is too great to allow the trade to be carried on with any prospect of advantage under the authority of such a general order. The merchants of this country therefore apply to the privy council for particular licences; which being granted, neutral vessels are chartered, by which under these licences a trade is securely carried on, which otherwise, would not exist. The ships proceed in ballast for the hostile port, taking with them neither British manufactures nor colonial produce, which would render them liable to confiscation. They bring back, foreign spirits, wine, and fruit, but neither raw silk, nor any other article useful to the British manufacturer. Those cargoes are chiefly paid for by bills of exchange. As this trade affords great encouragement to one of the chief staples of the enemy, without promoting in the smallest degree the welfare of the shipping, manufacturing, or colonial interests of this country, it is evidently the policy, as we are led to believe it is the practice of the French government, to connive at its continuance, and to protect it. The sound policy of this country would seem to require the prohibition or discouragement of a trade, in which the advantage is reaped by the enemy; particularly as by so doing the produce of our own colonies, and spirits the manufacture of our own country, would replace those so withdrawn from, the market.—It appears that the quantity of foreign spirits for which duty was paid in the last year, was 2,101,187 gallons, and that the gross amount of the duty was 1,336,973
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THIRD REPORT FROM THE COMMITTEE ON
The Committee appointed to enquire, and report, how far, and under what circumstances, it may be practicable and expedient to confine the DISTILLERIES of the United Kingdom to the use of SUGAR and MOLASSES only; and also what other Provision can be made for the Relief of the GROWERS of SUGAR in the BRITISH WEST INDIA COLONIES; and to report the same, with their Observations and Opinion thereupon, from time to time, to the House:—and who were empowered to report the MINUTES of the EVIDENCE taken before them;—
HAVE, pursuant to the Order of the House, further examined the Matters to them referred; and have come to the following Report:
IN the further consideration of the extensive subject referred to your Committee, it has appeared to them, that in the event
FOURTH REPORT FROM THE COMMITTEE ON
The Committee appointed to enquire, and report, how far, and under what Circumstances, it may be practicable and expedient to confine the DISTILLERIES of the United Kingdom to the use of SUGAR and MOLASSES only; and also what other Provision can be made for the Relief of the GROWERS of SUGAR in the BRITISH WEST INDIA COLONIES; and to report the same, with their Observations and Opinion thereupon, from time to time, to the House:—and who were empowered to report the MINUTES of the EVIDENCE taken before them;—
HAVE, pursuant to the Order of the House, further examined the matters to them referred; and have agreed to the following Report:
YOUR Committee next proceeded to enquire whether any and what Relief might be afforded to the colonies, by reducing the prohibitory duty on the importation of refined sugar, to a duty which should be merely equivalent to that on raw sugar.—It may be proper to premise, that there is a process called claying, which does not subject the sugar to the prohibitory duty, and makes it liable only to an additional duty of 4
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FIRST REPORT FROM THE SELECT COMMITTEE ON THE AFFAIRS OF THE EAST INDIA
The Select Committee appointed to enquire into the present State of the Affairs of the East India Company, and to report the same, as it shall appear to them, to the House, with their Observations thereupon, and also to report their Proceedings from time to time to the House; and to whom several Accounts and other Papers presented to the House, respecting the Revenues and Charges, and the commercial Concerns of the East India Company; and also the Petition of the United Company of Merchants of England, trading to the East Indies, were severally referred:—Have, pursuant to the Orders of the House examined the matters to them referred, and have agreed upon the following Report.
THE utmost diligence which your Committee have been enabled to bestow upon a subject of such extensive detail, as an enquiry into "the present state of the Affairs of the East India Company," would not have been sufficient for its full investigation within the period which has elapsed since their appointment, even if many of the most necessary documents, as to the state of the Company's Affairs in India, had not been received so recently as to preclude the possibility of their being examined with that degree of accuracy, care, and attention, which the complicated nature, not less than the importance of the subject, indispensably requires: your Committee are still engaged in the consideration of the various matters comprehended in the general object of their enquiry, and will from time to time submit their observations thereupon to the house; but in consequence of the Petition which the Company have presented to the house, and which has been referred to your committee, they have deemed it advisable, in the first instance, to advert to the allegations of that Petition, including not only those which refer exclusively to the balance claimed by the Company as owing to them by the public, but also such as relate to the general state of their affairs, and to report upon the same, as far as the progress which your Committee have been enabled to make in their enquiry, has, in their apprehension, justified the Observations which they now offer to the consideration of the house.—Your Committee, finding it stated in the Petition from the Company, as one of the causes from which the present embarrassment in their pecuniary concerns had arisen, that a large balance of Debt remained due to them from the public, on account of various expences incurred for expeditions to the French, Dutch, and Spanish settlements in the Indian seas, and to Egypt, have proceeded, in the first instance, on the investigation of the Account between the public and the Company. Your Committee find, that in the report made by a former Committee upon this subject, on the 26th day of June 1805, and now referred to your Committee, the several heads of charge upon which the claims preferred on behalf of the Company were founded, are arranged in the following manner, in three Classes, according to the nature of the circumstances and transactions out of which they have respectively arisen. The first class composed of such heads of charge as should fall, in the opinion of the Committee framing that Report, exclusively on the public; the second, of such as should be borne exclusively by the Company; and the third, consisting of charges to be divided equally between both parties.—
First Class
Second Class
Third Class
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Independently of the claim which the company have preferred against the public, for expences incurred in carrying into execution the orders which at different times have been transmitted to India, for expeditions against the settlements of such European powers as have been engaged in war with this country, and also to Egypt, your Committee observe, that in the above mentioned Petition various circumstances (all of which are connected with that state of war in Europe and in India) are represented as the causes which have produced the present embarrassments in the Company's affairs, and the grounds on which they pray for such relief as parliament may think fit to grant.—It will be evident from the examination of the several accounts contained in the Appendix to this Report, which exhibit a view of the Company's pecuniary concerns in England during the last ten years, when compared with the Estimate for 1808–9, that the deficiencies of the last and present year have proceeded from causes which have been progressive in their operation, and that the state of affairs which those accounts now exhibit, is to be traced to a combination of various circumstances connected with the wars in which the Company have been engaged in India, as well as with the general state of warfare in which a large portion of Europe has for a long period been involved. Your Committee have selected from the annual accounts of the Company's affairs at home, which have been presented to parliament during the last ten years, a comparative statement of Receipts and Payments in such articles as have experienced or admit of any considerable variation in their amount. It will appear from that account, that the present deficiency may be ascribed principally to the following causes:—1st. To the diminished sale of the Company's goods; the sum estimated to be received from such Kales for the year 1808–9 being 1,394,589
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FIRST REPORT FROM THE COMMITTEE ON
THE COMMITTEE appointed to enquire how far the Evils attending LOTTERIES have been remedied by the LAWS passed respecting the same; and to report their Observations thereupon, and upon such further Measures as may be necessary for Remedy thereof; and who were empowered to report their Opinion thereupon, from time to time, to the House;—
HAVING been employed in collecting information, and examining witnesses on the matters referred to them; and having duly weighed and considered the same, have come to the following Resolutions:—Resolved, That it is the opinion of this Committee, That (in case it shall be thought expedient to continue state lotteries) the number thereof in each year should be limited to two lotteries, of not more than 30,000 tickets each; that the number of days allowed for drawing, instead of ten, the present number, should be brought back to eight for each lottery, the number fixed in 1802: that the number of tickets to be drawn each day should be uncertain, and left to the discretion of the commissioners of stamp duties, and kept secret till the close of the drawing each day, care being taken, as the lottery proceeds, not to leave too great a number undrawn on the latter days of drawing, but that one moiety or upwards be drawn on the four first days thereof.—Resolved, That it is the opinion of this Committee, That no person should be allowed to deal in lottery tickets without a licence for that purpose from the commissioners of stamp duties, and that the provision to that effect, in the second section of 22 Geo. III. cap. 47, repealed in 1802, and not renewed in the late acts, should be re-enacted, with this addition, that every licensed lottery office keeper should be allowed to take out from the stamp office, in addition to his own licence, a limited number of licences for agents, with a stamp duty of about one-tenth of that paid by himself, in the proportion of two such agents licences, for every 150 tickets shared by him at the stamp office; and that all persons should be forbidden, under a heavy penalty, to act as agents for any lottery office keeper, or to deal in lottery tickets, except persons so licensed.—Resolved, That it is the opinion of this Committee, That in order to prevent persons setting up licensed lottery offices as a cloak for carrying on illegal insurances, the number of tickets required to be shared in each lottery, in order to entitle the parties to a licence, should be extended from thirty to one hundred and fifty; and that such licences should be renewed for every lottery, upon the parties continuing to share that number of tickets.—Resolved, That it is the opinion of this Committee, That the limitation of hours during which lottery offices may be open for the transaction of business, viz. from 8 o'clock in the morning till 8 o'clock in the evening, enacted by 22 Geo. iii. cap. 47, and renewed in the lottery acts of 1802, and the three following years, but omitted in those of the two last years, ought in future to be reenacted, without the exception therein made with respect to Saturday, when lottery offices ought to be shut at as early an hour as on other evenings.—Resolved, That it is the opinion of this Committee, That all persons concerned in hawking about lottery tickets and shares for sale, in distributing hand-bills respecting lotteries otherwise than in the offices of licensed persons, in illuminating lottery offices for outside show, in exhibiting lottery schemes and bills upon boards, carts, or carriages, in town or country, should be subjected, on conviction before a magistrate, to a considerable penalty, and in default of payment to imprisonment for a limited period.—Resolved, That it is the opinion of this Committee, That the exemption of licensed lottery office keepers, from the jurisdiction of justices of the peace, and
Your Committee are still engaged in collecting evidence on the subject of clandestine insurances and other illegal practices, which, notwithstanding the measures adopted at different times for their prevention, appear Still to be carried on to a considerable extent; but not having finished their enquiries, they defer for the present making a final report on the matters referred to them.
SECOND REPORT ON LOTTERIES.
Ordered to be printed
th June
THE Committee, &c.
HAVING made a report to the house, in the month of April last, at the conclusion of which they informed the house, that they were still engaged in collecting evidence on the subject of clandestine insurances and other illegal practices; which, notwithstanding the measures adopted at different times for their prevention, appeared still to be carried on to a considerable extent. Having collected all the evidence which they have deemed material for the formation of a judgment upon the different points submitted to their consideration, have agreed upon the following Report.
Your Committee beg to call your attention to the evidence contained in the appendix, and more particularly to that of Mr. Wood, an officer appointed and paid by government, under the title of "Inspector of Lotteries," from whom your Committee might have expected to derive the most material and satisfactory information upon all the matters referred to them; and more especially upon the steps he had lately taken in the execution of the duties of his office. It is manifest, however, that since the year 1802, when the scheme of the lottery was altered, the inspector of lotteries has performed no duties; and he has declared to your Committee that there do not appear to him to be any duties incumbent upon him to perform. Your Committee have been further informed by Mr. Wood, that he believes, by the regulations adopted since the year 1802, the evils arising from the lottery have been done away, and illegal insurances suppressed. But the examination of many other witnesses has proved to your Committee that the information so given, by what your Committee had a right to rely on as the most competent authority, is unfortunately altogether erroneous; and your Committee have collected the reasons why information more to be depended upon has not been obtained from the source in question; for the details of which they refer you to the evidence itself.—Your Committee are compelled to state, that the evils of clandestine insurance appear to them to prevail to a much greater extent than they had reason to suspect when they made their first report in the month of April last; and it now appears fairly questionable whether the number of persons concerned in such practices has materially diminished, or the sums adventured have been at all decreased. The greater privacy with which the transactions are conducted of course makes every inquiry into their existence exceedingly difficult, whilst it produces combination, and renders the invention of any real remedy the more hopeless.—Your Committee have applied themselves with great assiduity to that part of their instructions by which they are directed to report upon such further measures as may be necessary for the remedy of the evils attending lotteries; and they submit to the house some account of the law, together with such observations and suggestions as have occurred to them thereupon.—An act was passed (22d Geo. iii. c. 47.) and was intituled, "An act for licensing lottery-office keepers, and regulating the sale of lottery tickets."—The breach of the law was punished by penalties, recoverable before two magistrates, "and the usual powers were given for the recovery of the same, in case of non-payment, by warrant of distress and sale, and for want of sufficient distress, the offender to be sent to the house of correction, for any time not exceeding six months nor less than three, unless the penalty should be sooner paid." A power of mitigation was given to the magistrates, and no penalty could be recovered, unless the offence had been committed within twelvemonths preceding the commencement of the prosecution.—No alteration in the law, with respect to illegal insurance in lotteries, was made until the year 1737, when an act (27th Geo. iii. c. 1.) was passed, for rendering more effectual the laws now in
l."
THIRD REPORT FROM THE COMMITTEE ON
Third Report from the Committee, appointed to examine and consider what Regulations and Checks have been established, in order to control the several branches of the PUBLIC EXPENDITURE in Great Britain and Ireland; and how far the same have been effectual; and what further measures can be adopted for reducing any part of the said expenditure, or diminishing the amount of Salaries and Emoluments, without detriment to the PUBLIC SERVICE.—
Ordered to be printed
th June
THE House having, by an instruction of 7th July 1807, directed the attention of your Committee to all pensions, sinecures, and reversionary grants paid out of the public revenue, or out of any funds applicable to the public service, it has been judged proper to lay separately before the House, the result of their inquiries upon subjects of such importance.—Allowances paid out of public money to persons not actually performing service, have at various times attracted the notice of parliament.—Towards the close of the American war, when the burden of expense pressed with extraordinary weight upon the resources of the country, and when application was made to parliament to discharge the debts
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PENSIONS.
The pensions considered by the board of treasury as coming under the operation of the 17th clause of the civil list act, are contained in Appendix No. 1.; and your Committee have the satisfaction of remarking, that their total amount, being 89,067
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A list of all other pensions paid at the Exchequer out of the civil list, or any other funds, is given in N° 2.
The pensions payable by Treasury Warrants out of the 4½ per cent. duty, which are included in N° 2, stand upon a different footing from the others; because that part of the hereditary revenue not having been given up to the public at the commencement of his majesty's reign, (Finance Rep. 23, pp. 11. 43), has been considered as continuing in the absolute disposal of the crown; but as this fund augments the general stock, which is applicable to royal bounty under the direction of government, it is fit, in that point of view, not to be omitted. The amount is 15,331
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N° 3, and 4 give lists of other pensions paid out of the 4½ per cent, duty, by the husband, amounting, in the year 1807, to 20,896
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N° 5, shows the pensions granted in the War-Office, chiefly by his majesty's authority, through the Secretary at War; the whole amount of which is 5,640
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The Compassionate List, and other allowances paid at the War-Office, are con-contained in N° 6; the annual amount is
£
N° 7. Pensions to Officers' Widows, including Paymaster's Poundage
£
N° 8. Pensions paid out of the Revenues of the Isle of Man, amounting to
£
N° 9, out of the Revenues of Gibraltar
£
Out of the Revenues of Ceylon, 480
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Out of the Revenues, of Lower Canada
(according to the Journals of the House of Assembly of that province, printed at Quebec 1807)—Pensions for Services performed, or to Widows, &c. pursuant to orders from the Secretary of State, or Lords of the Treasury
£
N° 10, contains a list of Allowances granted by Treasury Minutes, and payable out of the Civil List, and other funds, but not included in either of the former returns: The amount is
£
It appears by Journal, vol. 59, p. 677, that Allowances to retired Officers of the Treasury, which are now charged on the Fee Fund, were formerly made in the shape of Pensions out of the Civil List.
Nos 11 & 12, exibit Allowances paid out of the Fee Fund of the Secretary of State, Foreign Department; the subsisting charge upon which, in case no parts of the payments were suspended, is
£
N° 13, belongs to the same Department, containing the Minute of Council, granting a Pension of 1,000
l
N° 14, gives the same account for the Colonial Department, amounting to 1,625
l;
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One Pension of 550
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N° 15, exhibits the same for the Home Department.—It is to be observed, that more of these Pensions appear to have the direct sanction of the Board of Treasury than those in the other two departments. The annual amount is
£
N°16, contains an account of Pensions payable on the Ordinary Estimate of the Navy, or granted by his Majesty's sign manual out of the sale of Old Naval Stores. A considerable proportion of these, being fixed Allowances to Sea Officers, or persons connected with the Naval service, according to a regular order of superannuation, your Committee wish to distinguish from others which appear in the same List; noting only, for the sake of the general view of the whole subject, their total amount, which is
£
To 25 Rear Admirals, superannuated, &c. according to a fixed rule
£
27 Captains D°
5,913
50 eldest Lieutenants D°
5,475
2 Physicians and one principal Surgeon
798
89 Masters; 68 Surgeons; 26 Pursers; 90 Boatswains; 100 Gunners; 105 Carpenters; 32 Cooks
21,405
To Officers who have received wounds in the Service; viz.
2 Admirals; 17 Captains; 38 Lieutenants; 2 Masters; 3 Surgeons; 2 Pilots; 22 Officers of Royal Marines
10,696
Mothers, Widows, and Children
1,465
D° determinable on some contingency
4,515
Widows of Lieutenants
500
D° of Officers of Marines, and of Subalterns in the Navy,
1,852
£
Pensions, in the nature of Superannuations, to persons employed in the Civil Line of this department, such as Clerks to Secretaries of the Admiralty, Clerks of the Navy, Victualling and Sick and Hurt offices, and Clerks in the several yards
£
The same to Master Attendants, Master Shipwrights, Sailmakers, Mastmakers, Caulkers, Boatbuilders, and a variety of Artificers, Storekeepers, and Messengers employed in the Yards
£
Pensions to persons retiring from Office, on the Ordinary Estimate
£
Contingent Pensions on D°
1,000.
Pensions to some of the same persons on the produce of Old Stores, 1,817
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Total of Pensions on Old Stores, including the above 1,817
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£
Contingent Pensions on D°
3,851
£
Your Committee conceive that it may tend to encourage abuse, if such allowances as some of these should continue to be covered under the Ordinary Estimate of the Navy; and that the mode of giving Allowances out of the Fund produced by the sale of Old Stores, in some cases to the very same persons who receive Pensions on the Ordinary Estimate, requires, if not correction, at least constant attention and superintendence.
N° 17, shows the application of 85,115
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List of Bills assigned on the Treasurer of the Navy
£
18
4
Payments by sign manual, in aid of the Salaries of the Offices of First Lord of the Admiralty, Treasurer of the
Navy, and Paymaster of Widows Pensions
8,820
0
0
Pensions to Officers of the Navy, their Widows, and near Relatives
7,059
0
0
Miscellaneous Allowances to Officers on whom honours have been conferred, to pay the Fees thereon, to others to defray the Table or other Charges of Military or Diplomatic Persons whom they have conveyed to or from the several Stations of their Public Service
13,802
16
0
Balance in hand, 31 Dec.
1806
12,599
13
4
£.85,115
17
2
Your Committee cannot view without jealousy the Fund arising from the sale of Old Stores, which, in the year ending 31 Dec. 1806, amounted to 85,115
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N° 18. Tax Office:—To superannuated Officers
£
N° 19. Office of Master of the Horse:—
The highest of these Pensions is 30
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£
N° 20. Lord Steward's Office:—Annual
Bounty
£
Quarterly D°
£
£
N° 21 Transport Office:—A Pension for relinquishing an Office in 1778, paid at the Treasury out of the Civil List, but not included in N° 12.
£
N° 22. Excise:—A Pension in the nature of a Compensation for an Office in the Salt Duties
£
Another on the same Account
428
3 others on the same Account; together
1,019
£
The Pensions granted out of the hereditary Revenues of Excise, by Charles 2, and William 3, are omitted.
N° 23 & 24. Muster Master General's Office.—Pensions granted, by virtue of letters from the Secretary at War, to Commissaries, &c. suppressed, in the nature of Compensations
£
N° 25. A Pension of 100
l
N° 26. Pay-Office:—Four Pensions to Widows of Accountants, &c. granted by Treasury Letters; together
£
N°27. Post-Office:—Pension to a late Surveyor of the Customs, abolished
£
Another Pension, on relinquishing the Office of Postmaster of Portsmouth
80
£
N° 28. Stamps,—Pension as a Compensation to Clerk of Wine Licences
£
The following are paid and included in the Bill of Incidents, in obedience to Treasury Warrants: To superannuated Officers and Persons employed in the Perfumery Duty, and other Duties which have been repealed, or transferred to other management
3,080
£
The amount of Pensions payable out of the Land Revenue of England, and comprized under the denomination of "Perpetual Pensions," is contained in the 12th Report of the Commissioners of the Woods, Forests, and Land Revenues of the Crown, p. 66 to 69; and those out of the Revenue of North and South Wales, are in the same Report, p. 151 and 153. They are ancient charges upon those Revenues, and have been subject to no alterations since the date of that Report, except by the governments of Conway and Ludlow Castles being now vacant (to the former of which a Salary of 23
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The Salary of 400
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ORDNANCE ESTABLISHMENT.
Gratuities for length of service to sundry Officers on the above Establishment, estimated and voted this year, 8,565
l:
N° 30. The pay of superannuated and disabled men, half-pay of reduced Officers for good services, pursuant to his majesty's Warrants, according to the Estimate of this year (1808), voted by the house, amounts to
£
PENSIONS.—SCOTLAND.
N°* 31, 32, and 33, contain an account of the total Amount of Pensions paid out of the Civil Establishment of Scotland, in the year 1807, being
£
—together with a list of such of the above Pensions as were granted in the same year, amounting to
£
Also, a list of of Pensions paid in 1806 amounting to
£
—together with a list of contingent Pensions, amounting to
£
Also an account of the total Amount of Pensions in 1805, exclusive of contingent Pensions, being
£
Of the same in 1804, being
£
It appears from an account ordered to be printed 18 June 1801, that the Amount of Pensions was, in 1801
£
And from 30th Report Committee of Finance, appendix (A. 22.)
In 1797
£
And in 1761
5,940.
The Revenues out of which these Payments are made, and the authority as well as the general circumstances under which they are granted, require some observation.
The Civil List acts passed at the commencement of the last and present reign 1 Geo. 2, c. 1. 1 Geo. 3. c. 1. by which the hereditary revenues were surrendered in consideration of a fixed annuity, expressly reserved to his majesty the several duties and revenues which had been antecedently payable to the crown in Scotland, "in the same manner only and subject to the like charges as the same were subject to" in the immediately preceding reigns.—These Revenues constituted, antecedently to the Union, a fund applicable to the payment of the general charges of the Civil Establishment of Scotland; but laws were passed immediately after (7 Anne, c. 11. s. 10. and 10 Anne, c. 26. s. 108.) providing that the Revenues of Customs and Excise should be specially charged with the support of the Courts of Session, Justiciary, and Exchequer; on the professed ground, that, "since the Union, "the expense of keeping up the said "courts could be no otherwise provided "for."
The Customs and Excise are also charged with the expences of the Privy Seal, and of the Great Seal, although they are not mentioned in the acts referred to. The 20th Geo. 2, c. 43. s. 29. which abolished heretable jurisdictions, gave authority to grant competent salaries to the Sheriffs, but without specifying the fund out of which they should be defrayed.—(N° 38.)—These salaries have also been charged upon the Customs and Excise, though they seem more properly to belong to the reserved Revenues, since the Offices to which they are annexed make a part of the general Civil establishment. By 26 Geo. 3, c. 47. the salaries of the Chief Officers of the Court of Admiralty, and of the commissary court, whose emoluments before the passing of that act depended on fees of office, then abolished, were directed to be paid out of the same fund; 30th Report Finance Committee, Appendix (A. 5.)
N° 34. These reserved Revenues consist of new subsidy of Customs, which of course increases with the progress of Commerce; of the hereditary and temporary revenues of Excise, which depend on the quantity of Beer and Ale brewed in Scotland; of the seizures of customs; the fines and forfeitures of Excise; and of the Crown Rents and Casualties, all of which are subject to fluctuation. Their total net amount in three years, ending 10 Oct. 1807, was 209,371;—being on an average yearly
£
N°s 35 & 36. Their total gross amount in the same three years was
£
N° 37. The difference between the gross and net amount of these Revenues arose from Bounties, Drawbacks, and other legal Re-payments, as well as Charges of Management.
N° 38. Their total gross amount for the three years 1761, 1762, and 1763, was 119,504
l
£
N° 39. The Charges to which they were liable in the year ending 10 Oct. 1807, were—1st. That of the Pension List, being then
£
2nd. Certain Payments for the Civil Establishment of Scotland, unconnected with the Courts of Justice
8,762
And, thirdly, Payments for Miscellaneous Services
8,575
£
N° 40. In the year ending 10 Oct. 1806, the sum of 30,000
l
l
Your Committee perceiving that so large and increasing a proportion of these reserved Revenues has been applied to Pensions, and that under the present system there is no security against their further extension, have thought it their duty to direct their particular attention to this subject; which had likewise attracted the notice of the Committee of Finance in 1798, (30th Report, p. 15.) who adverting to the great increase of Pensions on the Civil Establishment of Scotland, even at that time, 'and to the comparatively 'small duties performed by many of the 'persons holding some of the offices,' thought it 'an object well deserving consideration, whether, instead of their being 'granted, as in some instances they appeared to have been, the emoluments 'thereof should not, as future occasions 'and as instances might offer, be applied 'in favour of persons who might have distinguished themselves by great public 'service, or in ease of the funds applied 'to the Pension List, if the existing charges 'thereon, on a due examination, should be 'found necessary.'—The amount of pensions, which is already equal to more than two-fifths of the allowed pension list of England, ought clearly to be considered, in connexion with the emoluments of sinecure places and offices performed by deputy in Scotland, which amount to near 30,000
l.;
l
N° 42, presents a Return of the Convention of royal Burghs in Scotland to an order, for an account of public money placed at the disposal of the Convention, in pursuance of the Civil List act, sec. 16. together with a statement of the application of the same.—The lords of trade and police in Scotland being abolished by that statute, it was enacted, 'that all sums under their management should be placed at the disposal of the Convention of royal Burghs;' it appears however that no such sums have been received, that considerable difficulty and delay occurred in procuring information, nearly five years having elapsed before the balance in the hands of the cashier to the late board (amounting in July 1783 to 858
l
l
l
This payment having been for purposes purely local, seems to be a charge originally belonging more properly to the hereditary Scotch Revenue than to the civil list.—Your Committee submit, that so very unsatisfactory a return may require the attention of the commissioners of his majesty's treasury; and that the balance, due from the cashier ought to be paid forthwith, or if it should be irrecoverable, that the annual payment to him of 100
l
PENSIONS.—
Ireland
The total of pensions on the civil list of Ireland were, in the year ended 5th Jan. 1808, according to the annual printed finance account, p. 91
£
They were for the year ended 5th Jan. 1807
£
An account was laid before the House, made up to June 1801 (and printed 16th June), with the names of the pensioners; the amount of which was
£
There were also two additional accounts printed 22nd Feb. 1805, of
£
and 6th Feb. 1807, of
£
In the 59th vol. of the Journals, p. 718, is a list of all pensions granted on the establishment of Ireland, up to the 1st Jan. 1804, specifying the date and continuance of each grant; to which your Committee are obliged to refer for particulars, not having received a return to their repeated orders, of the present state of the pension list. The amount on 1st Jan. 1804, according to that list, was 104,258
l
l
l
l.;
l
£
N° 44, contains a list of all additions and diminutions in the pensions on the civil establishment of Ireland, since Oh June 1801, of which the former amount to 8,400
l
l
l
l
£
N° 46. Out of the Customs for the year ended 5th Jan. 1807
£
The greater number of these are in sums not exceeding 20
l
In the printed finance papers for the year ended 5th Jan. 1808, p. 13, the salaries, pensions, and gratuities in the customs, exclusive of salaries on the establishment, are stated at
£
N° 48. Out of the Excise for the year ended 5th Jan. 1807
£
These pensions have been increased by 300
l
l
£
N° 49. Pensions out of the Post-Office
£
N° 50. D° out of the Stamp Duties
£
N° 51. Under acts passed in 1799 and 1800, pensions were granted to persons instrumental in suppressing the rebellion, to be named by the lord lieutenant; which amount at this time, subject to diminution by the extinction of lives, to
£
645. Pension contingent to Thomas lord Manner, now lord chancellor of Ireland
£
Pension to John lord Redesdale, late lord chancellor of Ireland
£
Pension to right hon. Geo. Ponsonby, now lord chancellor of Ireland
£
The description of pensions contained in N°s 11. 14. 15. and in 13, are of an objectionable nature, inasmuch as they are neither paid nor entered at the Exchequer under the head of Pensions; and in case of any deficiency in the Fee Fund they fail directly upon the civil list. These allowances are in some cases conferred by the head of an office upon persons in that office itself, without any other apparent control; and even where they have been granted by his majesty in council, although the instrument becomes more formal, ail objection is not removed. They tend to confound two things, which ought always to be kept perfectly distinct, the necessary expence incurred for transacting the business of the executive government, and gratuities paid where no duty is annexed; they, become indirectly a burden upon the civil list, and by escaping notice, under the general title of Establishment, may tend to divert a fund, which was wisely formed under the sanction of parliament out of the fees of office for the purposes of economy, into a source of patronage.—This fund was constituted in the year 1795, out of the fees and gratuities received in the offices of the three secretaries of state; and it has relieved the civil list from the burden of the fixed establishment of those offices, which was previously charged upon it (with the exception of such deficiencies as are now occasionally made up by the Civil List;) in consequence of which arrangement, a material saving has been obtained for the public, and the salaries in those offices, which were before liable to great fluctuations, have been fixed at a precise sum, considerably below the average of their farmer amount.—In N° 28, it has been observed, that pensions to certain persons formerly employed in the stamp office are paid and included in the bill of incidents, in pursuance of warrants from the board of treasury. Your Committee conceive that annual allowances ought not to be granted generally, and without special reasons, to persons retiring from official situations either by their own choice, or upon any new arrangement in the mode of conducting business; and that such grants become more particularly objectionable, if the practice should be allowed to continue of charging any allowances, beyond such as are superannuations in the strictest sense, among the salaries or incidents of any department, instead of classing and entering them as Pensions, so that they may be kept entirely distinct from the salaries paid for transacting the current business of the office.—Even when a meritorious officer has served for a number of years, he ought not to receive remuneration as a mere matter of course upon retiring, without taking into consideration the emoluments of the office, and the fortune which he may have had the means of acquiring in that service, as well as the particular circumstances of his case: but with regard to such as may be inefficient or useless (otherwise than in consequence of age or infirmity) special circumstances alone can justify the propriety of rewarding them, when it becomes convenient for the public service, that their situations should be filled by persons better qualified to discharge the duties.—Your Committee cannot but discountenance the principle of granting compensation for offices suppressed or abolished
COMPENSATIONS.
Compensations for the loss of offices, which it has been judged expedient to abolish or regulate, afford another class of allowances paid for service not now executed; they exhibit a sum continually decreasing, as the lives of those entitled to them gradually fall in.—The Compensations printed in the Report upon the Civil List, were, for the year 1803, 11,663
l;
The accounts of Compensation are from N° 53 to K° 62, in the Appendix.
In examining the several Lists, the observation of the house will naturally be attracted, in the first place, to the magnitude of the sum derived through various channels, to the use of persons not actually performing any species of public service. It is true, that considerable portions of these payments are to be regarded in the nature of remuneration for services which have been rendered to the public, either by the persons themselves, or their near relatives; and to such as strictly belong to this class, where the duty has been diligently and faithfully done, and for an adequate period of time, and where the persons are so circumstanced as to have strong claims upon the public, no impediment is intended to be objected. Rut though instances may occur of persons whose claims upon the public are not equally apparent, or easy
l;
l
66
SINECURES, AND OFFICES EXECUTED WHOLLY OR CHIEFLY BY DEPUTY.
Next in order to pensions, comes an ambiguous and middle class, partaking of the nature of pensions, in as much as no service is performed, but still ranking under the head of offices, from the name of official business having been continued after the functions are become extinct or obsolete. Of these there still remain specimens in various departments, although the labours of parliament have been not fruitlessly employed in suppressing many of them, particularly by the 38 Geo. 3. c. 86. and 47 Geo. 3. c. 12. relating to the Customs, by the former of which 196 places, of the annual value of 42,655
l
OFFICES EXECUTED BY DEPUTY.
Offices executed wholly or chiefly by deputy, should be arranged with as much regard to economy as the public service will admit; and any offices that have not duty annexed in proportion to the salary should be reformed, and the salary suited to the responsibility and labour of the office.—The list of such offices is extracted from the returns in as complete a state as the examination of them can render it; but it may probably be still defective, for the same causes as have been mentioned under the former head. In applying the principle of retrenchment to this class, your Committee desire to be understood, as recommending it with the same exceptions with which they have accompanied their recommendation in the case of sinecures. Some of the great offices in the exchequer (which are indeed, as far as regards the principals, purely sinecures) being probably among the fittest to be retained, 'for the reward of personal services, or to secure an honourable retreat 'to persons who are entitled to marks of 'public favour, by the long and meritorious discharge of the duties of high office, 'or who have sacrificed lucrative professional situations on engaging in the public service.' Finance Rep. xxi. 19.—It should also be considered, that some of the lucrative offices in our courts of justice, which are in the disposal of the chiefs of the courts, constitute a considerable part of the valuable appendages to those situations, which it concerns the essential interests of the state, still more than its dignity, to have filled by persons who are the most eminent, and best qualified in their professions.
REVERSIONS.
The last general head is that of places granted in Reversion; a power which appears to have been, exercised by the Crown with regard to particular departments, for a very long period, without any fixed rule or principle which is discoverable, as guiding its discretion in the original selection: the right therefore rests upon usage, and the extent is limited by no written law.—But although no reason can be assigned for a practice which perhaps must be referred only to accident or temporary accommodation, it becomes obvious that it can never have obtained with regard to efficient offices, without considerable risk of ultimately producing the effect of converting them, so far as respects the principals, into sinecures, or into offices to be executed wholly by de-
Upon the more general question relating to the prerogative of the crown, as connected with, and affected by, the proposed arrangements, your committee proceed to submit their sentiments to the judgment of the house, trusting that the same disposition which has so often been manifested by parliament, will never be wanting to correct the growth of such abuses as the lapse of time, or alterations in the mode of transacting business, may have imperceptibly introduced into any of the departments of executive government.—The civil list act in 1782, the acts for abolishing certain offices in the years 1798, and 1807, that already referred to of the present session, and many others, afford abundant examples of temperate and judicious retrenchment; nor could the beneficial objects, proposed by the institution of the Committee of Finance in 1797, have been attained, nor can those For which your present committee was appointed, be expected, without interfering, in some degree, with the patronage and influence of the crown.—The subjects which are detailed in this report, have been specifically brought under consideration by the direction of the house; in obedience to which your committee now; present them, in the full persuasion that the reforms, which they venture to recommend, may be made without detriment to the public service, and with advantage to the public revenue.—No offices of any descripton were originally created for the
Under the words directing 'the names 'and descriptions of the persons to be reported, by whom, and in trust for whom, 'all offices, pensions, and emoluments, 'payable out of funds applicable to the 'public service are held,' your committee conceive that the house may be desirous to see at one view, which of these are possessed by their own members; and the subjoined list gives the names of all those who appear so described, upon a careful inspection of the returns. (See below.)—A more compleat catalogue is also given of every office from which returns have been required, than it was possible to make out before the close of the last session, distinguishing those from which none have been yet received: the present report therefore is intended to be substituted for that which was presented in August 1807, and entitled 'The third.' N°s 81, 82, 83.—Your committee, having selected such parts of the papers before them as are immediately connected with the subject of this report, have only to lay before the house the remaining mass of information which has been collected in consequence of their precepts, consisting chiefly of all the civil and judicial establishments of the United Kingdom; many of which have been already printed in the reports from the Committee of Finance, without having received any material alterations since that period, which have not been noticed in the returns of increase and diminution of offices, presented from time to time to the house.
EXTRACT from the Appendix. (No. 80.)
LIST of MEMBERS of the House of Commons holding OFFICES, &c. with the Annual Value of such Offices.
Admiralty:—Lords Commissioners,—Vice-Adm. sir R. Bickerton,
£
£
£
£
£
£
£
Alienation Office:—Receiver General,—Right Hon. Geo. Canning,
£
Vide infra
Auditor of the Land-Revenue for Wales,—Tho. Johnes; Lord Lieutenant of Cardiganshire, and Steward of several manors and lordships belonging to the Crown in that county,
£
Lord Chamberlain's Office:—Secretary,—J. Calvert; appointed by the Lord Chamberlain,
£
Clerk of the Parliaments,—Reversion vested in Geo. Henry Rose,
£
Vide infra
Exchequer, Teller of,—Hon. W. F. E. Eden,
£
Governor of the Isle of Wight,—Visc. Fitzharris, for life,
£
Groom of the Bedchamber to His Majesty,—Hon. Edw. Finch.
India Board, Officers of the; receiving salary from the East India Company only: Right hon. Robert Dundas. (
Vide infra
King's Printer,—Andrew Strahan; by patent, for 30 years, from 21st Jan. 1800. No salary annexed to this office; which is paid for the work done as Printer.
Master of the Horse:—Office of First Equerry,—Robert Manners,
£
Mint:—Clerk of the Irons and Meltings,—Right hon. Spencer Perceval,
£
Vide infra
Navy Office:—Comptroller,—Sir Tho. B. Thompson,
£
£
Navy Pay-Office:—Right hon. G. Rose,—Treasurer of the Navy,
£
£
£
Ordnance:—Clerk,—Hon. C. Ashley Cooper,
£
£
£
£
£
Pay-Office:—Joint-Paymasters,—Right hon. C. Long,
£
£
£
£
Paymaster,—Lord R. Edw. H. Somerset,
£
Privy-Seal:—Principal Clerk,—James Macdonald,
£
Popham, Sir Home Riggs, Pension, and after his death to wife,
£
Secretary of State, Foreign Department,—Right hon. G. Canning,
£
Vide supra
Secretary of State, War Department,—Lord visc. Castlereagh,
£
Under Secretary of State,—Brigadier-General hon. C. Stewart,
£
Under Secretary, Home Department,—Hon. Cecil Cope Jenkinson,
£
Lord Steward's Office:—Treasurer of the Household,—Visc. Stopford,
£
£
Treasury:—Right hon. Spencer Perceval,
£
Vide supra et infra
£
£
£
£
£
£
Secretaries,—W. Huskisson,
£
£
£
£
Vice-Chamberlain to His Majesty,—Right hon. Lord John Thynne.— Vice-Chamberlain to Her Majesty,—Edw. Disbrowe.
War-Office:—Secretary at War,—Right hon. sir James Pulteney, bart.
£
Clerk of the Supreme Court, Jamaica,—Right hon. sir Evan Nepean, bart.
Secretary and Clerk of the Inrolments, Jamaica,—Hon. Charles W. Wyndham.
Provost-Marshal, Barbadoes,—Thomas Carter.
MEMBERS of the House holding OFFICES in Courts of Justice.
Attorney-General,—Sir V. Gibbs. No return of annual Value.
Clerk of the Declarations, King's Bench
£
Chancellor of the Court of Exchequer—Right hon. Spencer Perceval,
£
Vide supra
Clerk of the Juries, Common Pleas,—Sir Tho. Turton, bart.
£
Master of the Rolls,—Right hon. sir W Grant,
£
Master in Chancery, J. Simeon, appointed by Lord Chancellor, for life,
£
£
Lord Treasurer's Remembrancer,—Snowdon Barne,
£
Surveyor of Green Wax,—Visc. Mahon,
£
Vide infra
Judge of the Consistory Court,—Right hon. sir W. Scott,
£
£
Judge-Advocate General,—Right hon. R. Ryder,
£
£
Chief-Justice in Eyre S. of Trent,—Right hon. T. Grenville,
£
£
Judge of Great Sessions, Denbigh and Montgomery,—Fra. Burton,
£
King's Advocate-General,—Sir John Nicholl. No return of annual value.—Salary,
£
King's Professor of Civil Law, Oxford, for life,—Dr. French Laurence,
£
Prerogative Court, Charles Moore, Joint Register,
£
£
Judge of Great Sessions, Merioneth, Caernarvon, and Anglesey,—Hugh Leycester,
£
Solicitor-General,—Sir Thomas Plumer.—And Justice of Great Sessions for Merioneth, Caernarvon, and Anglesey,
£
MEMBERS of the House holding OFFICES in Scotland.
Keeper of the Signet,—Right hon. Rob. Dundas,
£
King's Remembrancer, Court of Exchequer,—Sir P. Murray, bart.
£
Presenter of Signatures, Court of Exchequer,—Sir James Montgomery,
£
Lord Advocate,—Archibald Colquhoun,
£
Solicitor-General,—David Boyle,
£
MEMBERS of the House holding OFFICES &c. in Ireland.
Treasury:—Right honourable J. Foster,
£
£
£
£
£
£
£
£
£
Chief Secretary,—Right hon. sir Arthur Wellesley, K. B.
£
Muster-Master General, jointly with-Marq. Of Drogheda,—W. Bagwell; salary
£
£
Vicar-General, Armagh, appointed by Primate, for life,—Patr. Duigenan, LL. D.
£
Consistory Court, Dublin:—Official Chancellor, &c.—Patr. Duigenan, LL. D.
£
Keeper of Records in Birmingham Tower, by patent, for life,—Vise. Mahon,
£
Vide supra
Prothonotary s Office:—Lord Robert Seymour,—Joint-Keeper of the Writs, &c. for life, by patent,
£
Crown-Office:—Lord Rob. Seymour,—D° jointly with Lord H. Seymour,
£
Filazers Office:—Lord Robert Seymour,—D°
£
Keeper of the Signet,—Right hon. C. Abbot, Speaker,
£
Quarter-Master General,—Brig. Gen. W. H. Clinton,
£
Chief Remembrancer, Court of Exche-chequer,—Hon. W. W. Pole, jointly with Marquis Wellesley,
£
Vide supra
Teller of the Exchequer,—R. Neville,
£
Right hon. Geo. Ponsonby, as late Lord High-Chancellor, pension of,
£
One of the Joint Solicitors in Great Britain,—W. H. Fremantle,
£
INDEX.
INDEX TO DEBATES IN THE HOUSE OF LORDS.
A
Appropriation Act, 1085
B
Bank of Ireland Charter Bill, 901, 976, 996
Brunswick, Duchess of; King's Message respecting the, 158
C
Catholic Petition, 1, 30, 139, 643, 706
Curates Residence Bill, 958, 975, 1086, 1093, 1095, 1111
D
Danish Merchant Ships detained previous to Hostilities, 86, 300
Debtors Bill, 99, 252
Droits of Admiralty, 912
H
Hyde Park, 1111
I
Indictment Bill, 30, 277, 416, 541, 544, 710
Irish Customs Regulation Bill, 539
Irish Clergy Residence Bill, 719
Irish Glebe House Bill, 119
K
King's Message respecting the Duchess of Brunswick, 158
L
Local Militia Bill, 914, 958
M
Marriage Indemnity Bill, 414, 488
Maynooth College, 1114
O
Offices in Reversion Bill, 31, 139, 159
Orders in Council, 707, 1126
P
Palmer, Mr; his Claim, 857, 870, 959
R
Reversion Bill, 31, 139, 159
Roman Catholic Petition, 1, 30, 139, 643, 706
S
Scotch Judicature Bill, 142
Scotch Teinds, 449
Sicilian Treaty, 857
Spain, 1138
Speech of the Lords Commissioners at the Close of the Session, 1139
Stamp Duties Bill, 995, 1096, 1106
Sugar Distillation, 998
T
Treaty with the King of Sicily, 857
INDEX TO DEBATES IN THE HOUSE OF COMMONS.
A
Agriculture; Board of, 1131
Annuity Plan, 261, 697
Army; Corporal Punishments in the, 1115
Army Clothing, 1002
Assessed Taxes Bill, 120, 974
B
Bank of Ireland, 700, 714, 720, 808
Brunswick, Duchess of; King's Message relating to the, 141, 142
Budget, 11, 764
Budget; Irish, 829
C
Carnatic Question, 315, 767, 921
Catholic Petition, 32, 489, 549
Chairman of Ways and Means, 1130
Copy Right Bill, 918, 988
Corporal Punishments in the Army, 1115
Courts Martial, 811
Criminal Law, 395, 877
Criminals, 1103
Crown Lands, 131, 141, 259
Curates Residence Bill, 54, 61, 141, 833, 876, 956
D
Dalrymple; Dismissal of the late Mr. 1102, 1134
Dardanelles, Expedition to the, 131, 285, 475
Davison, Alexander, 1096
Dead Bodies Interment Bill, 79
Duigenan Dr.; Mr. Barham's motion respecting, 145
E
East India Company; Affairs of the, 68, 129, 804, 859
Expedition to the Dardanelles, 131, 285, 475
Expiring Laws Bill, 911
F
Finance, 61
Finance Committee, 907, 1098
Flax; Cultivation of, in Ireland, 80
Foreign Property in the Funds, 898
H
Hackney Coaches Bill, 811
Hyde Park, 1104, 1122
I
Irish Habeas Corpus Suspension, 712
Irish Protestant Charity Schools, 63
Irish Clergy Residence Bill, 67
Irish Tythes, 79, 908
Irish Budget, 830
Irish Supplies, 8, 84
Irish Spirit Drawback Bill, 81
Irish First Fruits Bill, 277
Irish Prisons, 1131
K
King's Message relating to the Duchess of Brunswick, 141, 142
King's Message respecting Sicily, 845
King's Message respecting a Vote of Credit, 858
King's Proctor, 870
L
Life Annuity Plan, 261, 697
Local Militia Bill, 39, 66, 100, 274, 406, 717, 824, 828, 849
M
Maynooth College, 89, 121
Military Commissioners Bill, 802
Military Report; Fifth, 80, 639
N
Naval Asylum, 3, 919
O
Offices in Reversion Bill, 18
Orders in Council, 642
Oyster Fishery Bill, 993
P
Palmer, Mr.; his Claim, 161, 289, 394, 473, 642, 865, 956, 1010, 1062, 1084
Paymaster General's Accounts Bill, 87
Parish Settlement Bill, 423
Plymouth Dock Police Bill, 828,
Popham, Sir Home; Conduct of, 721
Prisons in Ireland, 1131
Promissory Notes Bill, 810
Publicans Licenses, 848
R
Reversion Bill, 18
Rochfort Squadron; State of the, 132
Roman Catholic Petition, 32, 489, 549
Royal Naval Asylum, 3
S
Scotch Judicature Bill, 973, 1063
Scotch Local Militia Bill, 946
Scotch Judges' Annuity Bill, 117, 798
Sicilian Subsidy, 861
Small Pox Prevention Bill, 713, 810
Spain, 848, 866, 886, 1141
State of the Empire, 1042
Sugar Distillation, 55, 160, 404, 493, 702, 816, 867, 1130
T
Treaty with Sicily, 845
V
Vaccine Institution, 803, 841
Vote of Credit, 858, 898
W
Wellesley, Marquis; Conduct of, 315, 767, 921
Westminster Election—Case of Privilege, 143, 403, 544
Westminster Improvements, 863
West Indies; State of the, 973, 1056
INDEX OF NAMES.—HOUSE OF LORDS.
A
Albemarle, Earl of, 1000
Auckland, Lord, 30, 153, 692, 707
B
Bangor, Bishop of, 681
Bathurst, Earl, 708, 998
Bedford, Duke of, 1114
Buckingham, Marquis of, 917, 985
Buckinghamshire, Earl of, 686, 915, 1085, 1090, 1111
C
Canterbury, Archbishop of, 488, 976, 1085, 1091, 1093, 1114
Cumberland, Duke of, 30
D
Darnley, Earl of, 160, 1130
De Dunstanville, Lord, 1001
E
Eldon, Lord;
see
Eliot, Lord, 959
Ellenborough, Lord, 99, 252, 314, 417, 419, 710, 711
Erskine, Lord, 253, 314, 420, 541, 687, 711, 969, 978
Exeter, Bishop of, 414
G
Grenville, Lord, 1, 2, 643, 694, 708, 901, 905, 976, 987
Grosvenor, Earl, 32, 140, 1111
H
Harrowby, Lord, 159, 968, 980, 1085, 1089, 1093
Hawkesbury, Lord, 31, 87, 139, 142, 158, 314, 539, 687, 709, 857, 902, 914, 916, 959, 978, 995, 1001, 1085, 1094, 1095, 1108, 1113, 1127, 1129
Holland, Lord, 30, 31, 86, 87, 140, 160, 415, 418, 422, 540, 543, 691, 709, 711, 858, 904, 914, 917, 975, 995, 1000, 1085, 1095, 1096, 1109, 1114, 1126, 1129
Hutchinson, Lord, 682
L
Lauderdale, Earl of, 142, 158, 159, 315, 414, 415, 422, 449, 539, 540, 709, 903, 958, 975, 976, 985, 996, 1001, 1085, 1092, 1095, 1106, 1128
London, Bishop of, 958, 1085, 1112, 1113, 1114
Lord Chancellor (Eldon) 2, 142, 277, 313, 414, 415, 421, 473, 489, 540, 709, 711, 904, 918, 971, 996, 1091, 1111, 1113
M
Moira, Earl of, 1, 31, 140, 252, 672, 710, 916, 960, 1088, 1093
Montrose, Duke of, 1001
Morton, Earl, 140
Mulgrave, Lord, 685, 905, 918
N
Norfolk, Duke of, 686, 903, 1106, 1110
Norwich, Bishop of, 675
O
Oxford, Bishop of, 489
R
Radnor, Earl of, 959, 972
Redesdale, Lord, 140, 415, 488, 973, 985
Rochester, Bishop of, 1112
Rosslyn, Earl of, 905
S
Selkirk, Earl of, 915, 958, 999
Sidmouth, Viscount, 86, 87, 300, 665, 706, 917, 959, 1000, 1085, 1089, 1094
Somers, Lord, 141
Spencer, Earl, 905
Stanhope, Earl, 30, 277, 314, 415, 416, 421, 542, 543, 544, 685, 710, 958, 972, 985
Suffolk, Earl of, 694, 912, 1085, 1090, 1106, 1138
W
Walsingham, Lord, 971
Westmoreland, Earl of, 985
Y
York, Archbishop of, 681
INDEX OF NAMES.—HOUSE OF COMMONS.
A
Abbot, Rt. Hon. C.
See
Abercromby, J. 117, 800, 885, 918, 989
Adam, W. 1062
Advocate General (Sir John Nicholls) 755, 872
Allan, A. 373
Anstruther, Sir J. 78, 130, 769, 806
Attorney General (Sir Vicary Gibbs) 989
B
Babington, T. 55, 274
Bankes, H. 24, 289, 425, 474, 701, 798, 801, 863, 864, 899, 907, 1036, 1098
Barham, J. 128, 145, 157, 497, 705, 956
Baring, A. 272
Barry, I. 8, 65
Bastard, J. P. 874
Bathurst, C. B. 548, 818
Beresford, J. C. 152
Biddulph, R. M. 6, 8, 18, 61, 62, 63, 120, 141, 700, 1105, 1130
Binning, Lord, 55, 57, 160, 428, 493
Bourne, S. 297, 641
Boyle, D. 527
Brand, T. 58, 268, 816
Browne, D. 83
Browne, H. 1022
Burdett, Sir F. 25, 105, 119, 143, 239, 298, 401, 544, 545, 548, 814, 836, 843, 853, 1049, 1105, 1115, 1117
Burrell, Sir C. 447
Burghersh, Lord, 821
Burton, F. 835, 877, 885, 910, 1041
C
Calcraft, J. 132, 410, 754
Calvert, N. 820
Canning, Mr. Secretary, 38, 482, 572, 845, 861, 889, 892, 1048
Castlereagh, Lord, 39, 53, 100, 114, 274, 275, 589, 618, 895, 927, 954, 1119, 1142
Chancellor of the Exchequer (Right Hon. Spencer Perceval), 7, 10, 11, 19, 33, 37, 54, 55, 58, 62, 67, 75, 80, 81, 82, 84, 93, 94, 123, 129, 132, 142, 144, 230, 261, 273, 282, 403, 427, 440, 447, 536, 545, 619, 698, 702, 717, 760, 764, 801, 802, 809, 840, 899, 911, 1010, 1097, 1104, 1105, 1123, 1132
Chute, W. 56
Coke, T. W. 432, 493, 702, 819
Creevey, T. 55, 73, 129, 131, 804, 807, 834, 1105, 1122
Croker, J. 85, 97, 228, 403
Curtis, Sir W. 433
Curwen, J.C. 144, 154, 423, 434
D
Duigenan, P. 9, 11, 79, 128, 280
Dundas, R. 78, 118, 130, 520, 801, 859, 1055, 1130
E
Eden, W. 818
Elliot, W. 10, 65, 94, 601
Ellis, C. 59, 444, 1061
Eyre, A. 819
F
Fitzpatrick, R. 815
Fitzgerald, M. 8, 10, 35, 65, 97, 283, 578, 701, 908
Fitzgerald, W. 439
Foley, T. 275
Folkestone, Lord, 130, 639, 806, 859, 1120
Foster, J. 8, 9, 80, 82, 89, 279, 445, 700, 716, 809, 829
Fremantle, W. 641
Fuller, J. 20, 22, 293, 403, 713, 800, 803, 842, 849, 865, 938, 1010, 1039
G
Gascoyne, I. 437
Gibbs, Sir V.
See
Giddy, D. 271, 423, 426, 700, 705, 819, 842
Gooch, T. 439
Grant, C. 68, 72, 74, 131, 772
Grattan, H. 32, 33, 36, 64, 96, 127, 493, 549, 810
Grenville, T. 477
H
Hall, Sir J. 102, 407, 702, 821, 835
Hamilton, Lord A. 372, 805, 1096
Harvey, E. 56, 59, 131, 285, 288, 445
Herbert, H. A. 105, 400, 880, 909, 956
Hibbert, G. 56, 447, 521, 702, 899, 1056
Hill, Sir G. 401
Hippesley, Sir J. C. 66, 409, 595
Horner, F. 279, 423, 426, 799, 884, 1138
Howorth, J. 78, 945
Huskisson, W. 259, 260, 271, 700, 766, 1106
J
Johnstone, G. 242, 770, 1029
Jones, T. 841
K
Keene, W. 771
L
Laing, M. 125
Lascelles, E. 428
Laurence, F. 55, 89, 130, 251, 938, 957
Lefevre, S. 403
Lethbridge, T. B. 62, 394, 474
Leycester, H. 403, 547, 1099
Lockhart, J. 6, 157, 423, 1122
Long, C. 87, 162, 294, 752
Loveden, E. 820
Lushington, S. R. 774, 835
Lushington, S. 57, 721
Lyttleton, W. H. 21, 811
M
Macdonald, J. 118
Macleod, R. 61
Manning, W. 60
Martin, H. 117, 873
Martin, R. 604
Marryatt, J. 299, 436, 475, 816
Mathew, M. 122, 153, 637
Milbanke, Sir R. 55
Mildmay, Sir H. 56, 447, 528
Milton, Lord, 125, 297, 406, 426, 577, 836
M'Naghten, E. A. 82
Montgomery, Sir J. 274, 408, 444
Moore, P. 251, 1153
Morpeth, Lord, 143
Morris, E. 992
N
Newport, Sir J. 36, 65, 67, 74, 80, 81, 83, 89, 121, 151, 239, 271, 277, 283, 401, 444, 714, 720, 890, 833, 840
Nicholl, Sir J.
See
P
Palmer, C. 161, 170, 251, 1015
Parnell, H. 8, 9, 11, 33, 63, 66, 79, 83, 84, 85, 98, 701, 831
Patteson, J. 131
Peele, Sir R. 35, 426
Perceval, S.
See
Petty, Lord H. 124, 154, 242, 270, 591, 699, 808, 843, 990
Piggott, Sir A. 545, 546, 880
Plomer, Sir T.
See
Pole, W. 134, 767, 1135, 1136
Pole, Sir C. 3, 7, 132, 137, 870, 919
Pollington, Lord, 577
Ponsonby, G. 75, 76, 91, 94, 125, 139, 281, 443, 520, 605, 619, 807, 1037
Popham, Sir H. 734
Porchester, Lord, 23, 54, 141, 840
Price, Sir C. 841.
Pulteney, Sir J.
See
R
Robinson, F. 24
Romilly, Sir S. 395, 402, 424, 800, 875, 881, 922, 990, 1103
Rose, G. 5, 118, 121, 131, 141, 226, 269, 293, 425, 495, 804, 841, 919, 1039
Russell, Lord W. 824
S
Secretary at War, (Sir J. Pulteney,) 21, 641, 813, 1116
Sebright, Sir J. 705
Sharp, R.
Sheridan, R. B. 712, 768, 848, 864, 866, 886, 910, 911, 934, 1125, 1131
Shipley, W. 102
Sinclair, Sir J. 60, 433, 1131
Smith, J. 104, 447
Smith, W. 23, 128, 130, 154, 251, 272, 448, 538, 703, 835
Solicitor General, (Sir T. Plomer,) 250, 401, 402, 874, 883
Speaker, (Right Hon. C. Abbot,) 33, 34, 61, 135, 300, 548, 572, 752, 755, 802, 864
Stanley, J. 423
Stephens, S. 25, 126, 873, 991
Sumner, G. H. 299
Sutton, M. 837
T
Tarlton, B. 53, 143
Taylor, C. 132, 475
Taylor, M. A. 19, 61, 72, 76, 260, 839
Temple, Earl, 897, 1121
Thompson, T. 427
Thornton, H. 1101
Thornton, R. 808
Tierney, G. 8, 9, 24, 34, 37, 77, 129, 135, 152, 268, 546, 697, 701, 766, 807, 860, 1029
Tracey, C. H. 1123
Tremayne, J. H. 79
Turton, Sir T. 244, 294, 315, 769, 798, 804, 843, 865, 921, 941, 1022
V
Vansittart, G. 274
Villiers, J. C. 918, 989, 991
W
Wallace, T. 131, 324, 769, 798, 944
Ward, R. 131, 138, 1102, 1134
Wardell, G. L. 80, 1002
Warrender, Sir G. 1120
Wellesley, Sir A. 64, 67, 84, 91, 129, 150, 278, 444, 712, 814
Western, C. C. 518, 822, 833, 867
Whitbread, S. 5, 18, 101, 108, 118, 122, 132, 143, 156, 260, 424, 425, 537, 625, 706, 762, 861, 864, 875, 891, 907, 1041, 1043, 1053, 1141, 1143
Wilberforce, W. 37, 83, 109, 124, 276, 400, 538, 602, 819, 837, 843, 1144
Williams, Sir R. 153
Willoughby, H. 23
Windham, W. 6, 29, 38, 49, 59, 85, 111, 142, 155, 232, 268, 274, 275, 289, 405, 407, 446, 487, 575, 591, 619, 716, 757, 801, 838, 851, 863, 876, 881, 884, 893, 940, 955, 956, 1018, 1104, 1121, 1124
Wood, T. 108, 131, 285, 286, 488
Wortley, S. 293
Wynne, C. 123, 150, 276, 278, 833, 988
Wynne, Sir W. W. 408, 497
Y
Yorke, C. 38, 48, 160, 288, 619, 704, 947
END OF VOL. XI.