THE
FORMING A CONTINUATION OF THE WORK ENTITLED
"THE PARLIAMENTARY HISTORY OF ENGLAND,
FROM THE EARLIEST PERIOD TO THE YEAR 1803."
PUBLISHED UNDER THE SUPERINTENDENCE OF
T. C. HANSARD.
New Series;
COMMENCING WITH THE ACCESSION OF GEORGE IV.
VOL. XIV.
COMPRISING THE PERIOD
FROM
THE SECOND DAY OF FEBRUARY,
TO
THE SEVENTEENTH DAY OF MARCH, 1826.
LONDON:
Printed by C. C. Hansard at the Pater-noster Row Press,
FOR BALDWIN, CRADOCK, AND JOY; J. BOOKER; LONGMAN, REES, ORME, AND CO.;
J. M. RICHARDSON; KINGSBURY AND CO.; J. HATCHARD AND SON; J. RIDGWAY
AND SONS; R. JEFFERY AND SON; RODWELL AND MARTIN; R. H. EVANS;
BUDD AND CALKIN; J. BOOTH; AND T. C. HANSARD.
1826.
TABLE OF CONTENTS
NEW SERIES
I. DEBATES IN THE HOUSE OF LORDS.
II. DEBATES IN THE HOUSE OF COMMONS.
III. KING'S SPEECHES.
IV. PARLIAMENTARY PAPERS.
V. PETITIONS.
VI. REPORTS.
VII. LISTS.
I. DEBATES IN THE HOUSE OF LORDS.
Page
1826 Feb. 1826 Feb. 2. The King's Speech on Opening the Session
1
1826 Feb. 1826 Feb. 6. Mr. Cowper—Clerk Assistant
102
1826 Feb. 7. Mr. Cowper—Clerk Assistant
125
1826 Feb. 9. State of Ireland
128
1826 Feb. State of the Currency
132
1826 Feb. 15. Poor Laws in Ireland
407
1826 Feb. 17. Bank Charter Amendment Bill
450
1826 Feb. 20. Corn Laws
555
1826 Feb. Bank Charter Amendment Bill
556
1826 Feb. 23. Corn Laws
694
1826 Feb. 27. Scotch Banking System
864
1826 Feb. Corn Laws
865
1826 Feb. Bank Charter Amendment Bill—Bank Advances on Goods
866
1826 Feb. 28. Corn Laws
915
1826 Mar. Mar. 3. Corn Laws
1075
1826 Mar. 7. Abolition of Slavery
1139
1826 Mar. 9. Roman Catholic Question
1200
1826 Mar. Corn Laws
1202
1826 Mar. State of the Church Establishment in the South of Ireland
1205
1826 Mar. 14. Abolition of Slavery
1343
1826 Mar. Mar. 14. Corn Laws
1345
1826 Mar. Promissory Notes Bill
1347
1826 Mar. 16. Usury Laws
1373
1826 Mar. 17. Scotch Banks—Small Note Currency of Scotland and Ireland
1392
II. DEBATES IN THE HOUSE OF COMMONS.
1826 Feb. Feb. 2. Address on the King's Speech at the Opening of the Session
22
1826 Feb. 3. Mr. Brogden—Chairman of Ways and Means
90
1826 Feb. Address on the King's Speech at the Opening of the Session
91
1826 Feb. 7. Stamping of Small Country Notes
126
1826 Feb. Election Laws in Ireland
127
1826 Feb. 9. Country Banks that have become Bankrupts
145
1826 Feb. Silk Trade
152
1826 Feb. Corn Laws
157
1826 Feb. Bank of England Balances, &c
158
1826 Feb. Bank Charter and Promissory Notes Acts
165
1826 Feb. 13. Bank Charter and Promissory Notes Acts
245
1826 Feb. 14. Silk Trade
356
1826 Feb. The Currency—Country Banker's Notes
358
1826 Feb. Navigation Act—Treaties with South America
359
1826 Feb. Conduct of Mr. Kenrick in the Case of Franks
364
1826 Feb. Bank Charter and Promissory Notes Acts
368
1826 Feb. 15. Usury Laws Repeal Bill
409
1826 Feb. Repeal of the Bubble Act
416
1826 Feb. Exchequer Bills
416
1826 Feb. 16. Church Rates in Ireland
423
1826 Feb. Tolls and Customs of Fairs and Markets in Ireland
439
1826 Feb. 17. Conduct of Mr. Kenrick in the Case of Franks
500
1826 Feb. Navy Estimates
520
1826 Feb. Promissory Notes Bill
537
1826 Feb. 20. Petition of Mr. Kenrick
566
1826 Feb. Liability of Members to serve on Juries
568
1826 Feb. Promissory Notes Bill—Petition of William Cobbett
570
1826 Feb. Promissory Notes Bill
572
1826 Feb. 21. Liability of Members to serve on Juries—Report from the Committee of Privileges
642
1826 Feb. Joint Stock Companies—Mexican Mining Company
644
1826 Feb. Bear-Baiting and Dog-Fighting Bill
647
1826 Feb. Cattle Ill-Treatment Bill
653
1826 Feb. Conduct of Mr. Kenrick in the Case of Franks
657
1826 Feb. Navy Estimates.678
1826 Feb. 22. South American Treaties Bill
689
1826 Feb. 23. Reduction of Duties on Tobacco and Snuff
695
1826 Feb. Promissory Notes Bill—Petition of William Cobbett
696
1826 Feb. Commercial Distress—Petition of the Merchants of London for Relief
698
1826 Feb. Feb. 23. Mr. Ellice's Motion for a select Committee on the State of the Silk Manufacture
783
1826 Feb. 24. Mr. Ellice's Motion for a Select Committee on the State of the Silk Manufacture
809
1826 Feb. Promissory Notes Bill
859
1826 Feb. 27. Debtor and Creditor Arrangement Bill
877
1826 Feb. Promissory Notes Bill
878
1826 Feb. 28. Abolition of Slavery
918
1826 Feb. Military Discipline—Tenth Hussars
919
1826 Feb. Commercial Distress
920
1826 Feb. Exchequer Bills for Public Works
928
1826 Feb. Promissory Notes Bill
963
1826 Mar. Mar. 1. Abolition of Slavery
968
1826 Mar. Corn Laws
1000
1826 Mar. 2. Bribery and Corruption at Elections
1003
1826 Mar. Jamaica Slaves' Trials
1007
1826 Mar. 3. Slavery in the Colonies
1076
1826 Mar. Army Estimates
1082
1826 Mar. 6. Gold Coin in Exchange for Notes—Petition of William Martin
1112
1826 Mar. Corn Laws
1113
1826 Mar. Army Estimates
1119
1826 Mar. Ordnance Estimates
1131
1826 Mar. 7. Education in Ireland
1175
1826 Mar. Commitments for Contempts of Court
1178
1826 Mar. Promissory Notes Bill
1184
1826 Mar. Army Estimates
1192
1826 Mar. 8. Deposits with the Bank Bill
1198
1826 Mar. 9. Scotch Representation
1208
1826 Mar. Corn Laws
1210
1826 Mar. Consolidation of the Criminal Laws
1214
1826 Mar. Steam Vessels in Scotland
1244
1826 Mar. Local Jurisdictions in Ireland
1246
1826 Mar. Non-Resident Burgesses in Ireland
1247
1826 Mar. Episcopal Unions in Ireland
1253
1826 Mar. Private Bills Committees
1254
1826 Mar. Bank Charter Amendment Bill
1258
1826 Mar. 10. State of Exchequer Bills, and Transactions of Government with the Bank of England
1259
1826 Mar. Evacuation of Spain by the French
1283
1826 Mar. Army Extraordinaries—Miscellaneous Estimates
1284
1826 Mar. Mutiny Bill—Punishment of Flogging in the Army
1292
1826 Mar. 13. Financial Situation of the Country
1305
1826 Mar. 14. Banking System in Scotland
1358
1826 Mar. Emigration
1359
1826 Mar. Bribery at Elections Bill
1365
1826 Mar. Mutiny Bill—Punishment of Flogging in the Army
1370
1826 Mar. 15. Commissioners of Bankrupts—Tavern Expenses
1371
1826 Mar. 16. East India Company—Appointment of Writers
1374
1826 Mar. Scotch Banking—Small-Note Currency in Scotland and Ireland
1379
1826 Mar. Mar. 16. Westminster Abbey
1388
1826 Mar. Cruel Treatment of Cattle Bill
1391
1826 Mar. 17. Miscellaneous Services—Civil Contingencies 1400
III. KING'S SPEECHES.
1826 Feb. 2. KING'S SPEECH on Opening the Session
1
IV. PARLIAMENTARY PAPERS.
Communications between the First Lord of the Treasury and the Chancellor of the Exchequer, and the Governor and Deputy Governor of the Bank of England, relating to an Alteration in the Exclusive Privileges enjoyed by the Bank of England
103
Treaty of Amity, Commerce, and Navigation, between his Majesty and the State of Columbia. Signed at Bogota, April 18, 1825
111
Convention of Commerce between his Majesty and the Free Hanseatic Republics of Lubeck, Bremen, and Hamburgh. Signed at London, Sept. 29, 1825
117
Convention of Commerce between his Majesty and the King of France. Signed at London, Jan. 26, 1826
120
V. PETITIONS.
1826 Feb. 20. PETITION of William Cobbett against the Promissory Notes Bill
571
1826 23. of William Cobbett against the Promissory Notes Bill
696
VI. REPORTS.
1826 Feb, 21. REPORT of the Committee of the House of Commons, on the Liability of Members to serve on Juries
643
VII. LISTS.
1826 Feb. 13. LIST of the Minority, in the House of Commons, on Mr. Baring's Amendment to the Resolution moved by the Chancellor of the Exchequer in the Committee on the Bank Charter and Promissory Notes Acts
354
of the Minority, in the House of Commons, on Mr. Hudson Gurney's Amendment to the Resolution moved by the Chancellor of the Exchequer, in the Committee on the Bank Charter and Promissory Notes Acts
356
1826 Feb. Feb. 20. LIST of the Minority, in the House of Commons, on the Promissory Notes Bill
641
1826 Feb. 21. of the Minority, in the House of Commons, on the Navy Estimates
688
1826 Feb. 24. of the Minority, in the House of Commons, on Mr. Ellice's Motion for a Select Committee on the State of the Silk Manufacture
859
1826 Feb. 27. of the Minority, in the House of Commons, on the Promissory Notes Bill
892
1826 Feb. — of the Minority, in the House of Commons, on the Promissory Notes Bill
908
1826 Mar. Mar. 2. of the Minority, in the House of Commons, on Mr. Denman's Motion respecting the Jamaica Slaves Trials
1074
1826 Mar. 3. of the Minority, in the House of Commons, on the Army Estimates
1107
1826 Mar. 6. of the Minority, in the House of Commons, on the Army Estimates
1123
1826 Mar. of the Minority, in the House of Commons, on the Army Estimates
1127
1826 Mar. 7. of the Minority, in the House of Commons, on the third reading of the Promissory Notes Bill
1187
1826 Mar. of the Minority, in the House of Commons, on the Army Estimates
1198
PARLIAMENTARY DEBATES.
During the Seventh Session of the Seventh Parliament of the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Ireland, appointed to meet at Westminster, the Second Day of February 1826, in the Seventh Year of the Reign of His Majesty King GEORGE the Fourth
1826.
1
HOUSE OF LORDS.
Thursday, February 2, 1826
THE KING'S SPEECH ON OPENING THE SESSION.
This day the Session was opened by Commission. The place of Lord Chancellor Eldon was, in consequence of indisposition, supplied by lord Gifford. The other commissioners were the earls of Westmorland, Harrowby, and Shaftesbury. The deputy usher of the black rod having been ordered to require the attendance of the House of Commons, he withdrew. In a few minutes after, the Speaker, accompanied by a considerable number of members, having appeared at the bar, lord Gifford opened the session, with the following Speech to both Houses:—
"My Lords and Gentlemen,
"We are commanded by his Majesty to inform you, that his Majesty has seen with regret the embarrassment which has occurred in the pecuniary transactions of the country, since the close of the last session of parliament.
"This embarrassment did not arise from any political events, either at home or abroad: it was not produced by any unexpected demand upon the public resources; nor by the apprehension of any interruption to the general tranquillity.
"Some of the causes to which this evil must be attributed, lie without the reach of direct parliamentary interposition; nor can security against the recurrence of them be found, unless in the experience
2
"But, to a certain portion of this evil, correctives at least, if not effectual remedies, may be applied; and his Majesty relies upon your wisdom to devise such measures as may tend to protect both private and public interests against the like sudden and violent fluctuations, by placing on a more firm foundation the Currency and circulating Credit of the country.
"His Majesty continues to receive from his Allies, and generally from all Foreign princes and states, the strongest assurances of their friendly disposition towards his Majesty. His Majesty, on his part, is constant and unwearied in his endeavours to reconcile conflicting interests, and to recommend and cultivate peace both in the Old world and in the New.
"His Majesty commands us to inform you, that, in pursuance of this policy, his Majesty's mediation has been successfully employed in the conclusion of a treaty between the crowns of Portugal and Brazil, by which the relations of friendly intercourse, long interrupted between two kindred nations, have been restored; and the independence of the Brazilian empire has been formally acknowledged.
"His Majesty loses no opportunity of giving effect to the principles of trade and navigation, which have received the sanction of Parliament, and of establishing
3
"His Majesty has directed to be laid before you, a copy of a Convention, framed on these principles, which has recently been concluded between his Majesty and the king of France; and of a similar Convention, with the free Hanseatic cities of Lubec, Bremen, and Hamburgh.
"His Majesty has likewise directed to be laid before you a copy of a Treaty of Amity, Commerce, and Navigation, concluded between his Majesty and the Republic of Colombia, the ratifications of which have been exchanged since the close of the last Session. For the carrying into effect some of the stipulations of this treaty, his Majesty will have need of your assistance.
"His Majesty regrets that he has not to announce to you the termination of hostilities in India: but the operations of the last campaign, through the bravery of the forces of his Majesty, and of the East India Company, and the skill and per. severance of their commanders, have been attended with uniform success, and his Majesty trusts that a continuance of the name exertions may lead, at no distant period, to an honourable and satisfactory pacification.
"His Majesty's attention has been directed to the consideration of several measures, recommended in the last Session of Parliament, for improving the condition of Ireland.
"The industry of that part of the United Kingdom, his Majesty has the satisfaction of acquainting you, is in a course of gradual and general advancemhent—an advancement mainly to be attributed to that state of tranquillity which now happily prevails throughout all the provinces of Ireland.
"Gentlemen of the House of Commons.
"His Majesty has directed the estimates for the year to be prepared and laid before you.
"They have been framed with an anxious desire to avoid every Expenditure
4
"His Majesty has the satisfaction of informing you, that the produce of the Revenue, in the last year, has fully justified the expectations entertained at the commencement of it.
"My Lords and Gentlemen,
"His Majesty deeply laments the injurious effects which the late pecuniary crisis must have entailed upon many branches of the commerce and manufactures of the United Kingdom.
"But his Majesty confidently believes that the temporary check which commerce and manufactures may at this moment experience, will, under the blessing of Divine Providence, neither impair the great sources of our wealth, nor impede the growth of national prosperity."
The Commons then withdrew. After which, the Speech being again read by lord Gifford, and also by the Clerk at the table,
The Earl of Verulam
rose, to move an address to his Majesty, in reply to his most gracious Speech. The noble earl observed, that the Speech from the throne explained to their lordships the political situation of the country, and that it was usual for those who rose for the purpose of proposing to their lordships an address in reply to the royal Speech, to notice the principal topics which it embraced. He did not intend, however, to go into minute details. On all material points, the state of the nation afforded sufficient grounds for congratulation. Whatever unfavourable circumstances he had to notice, were of a temporary nature. He had no series of national calamities to deplore, no protracted war to lament. In general, he had only to call their lordships' attention to the fortunate situation of the country: but it was not to be expected that there would be no disagreeable feature in the picture. "Man is born to trouble as the sparks fly upwards;" and their lordships were aware that every state of things was liable to uncertainty and change. Accordingly, the first topic of the Speech, related to the late extraordinary and unexpected panic, which had occurred in the pecuniary transactions of the country. It was the more unexpected, because it had occurred at a moment when the
5
6
Lord Sheffield,
in rising to second the Address, said it was not necessary for him to trespass on their lordships' indulgence at any great length, after the able manner in which his noble friend had brought forward the motion. He must, however, beg leave to make a few observations. It appeared to him, that the late pecuniary distress had arisen out of the peace and prosperity of the country, which, by creating a great accumulation of capital, induced persons to speculate to excess. The distress, however, was by no means general, and he congratulated their lordships that in all the manufacturing districts the spirit of combination among the working classes had entirely disappeared, and they had now returned to their usual habits of peaceful industry. He also congratulated their lordships, that the agricultural interest had met with no material cheek by the recent difficulties. Among the topics contained in the Speech there were many on which he might congratulate their lordships in common with his noble friend. It was highly gratifying to find that Colombia had finally established her independence, and that we had entered into friendly relations with that state, as well as with others in the same hemisphere. As to the war in India, it was well known that the principles on which it was carried on were sanctioned by the highest authorities in this country. With respect to that part of the Speech which adverted to the improved state of Ireland, he rejoiced to find that the measures introduced last session had been found effectual in reference to the administration of justice, education, and general
7
Lord King
said, that the noble mover and seconder of the Address had both mentioned the present embarrassments, but he did not find that either of them had said a word on the causes which led to them. He would endeavour to supply the omission. The causes were, in some degree, to be attributed to the government; in a greater degree, to the country banks; and in a still greater degree to the Bank of England monopoly. He would tell their lordships how the government caused this mischief. It had prolonged the existence of the one and two pound notes. It had passed a law to allow of country banks issuing them. The measure permitting this was the measure of ministers. As far as the present evil arose from the bankers issuing such notes, to this degree it had been caused by his Majesty's government. There was also a strong tendency in the measures of ministers to reduce the rate of interest; and for this purpose, the one and two pound note bill had been passed. They had reduced the rate of interest on Exchequer bills, in order to promote a great future reduction of interest. Their conduct reminded him of the memorable speech of a memorable ex-chancellor of the Exchequer, in which that noble lord had stated, that it would be no benefit, if every individual, when he awoke in the morning, found a guinea in his pocket; but it would be a great benefit if he found the rate of interest reduced when he awoke. Such was the sentiment of the accredited organ of government, and ministers now seemed to think that it was no benefit that wealth should be spread abroad amongst all the people, but a great benefit that it should be collected into heaps. The ex-chancellor would be a proper organ for the projectors of last year, who removed the useless guinea out of the people's pocket, and supplied its place by receipts for stock or scrip for loans. He would recommend the people, as the proper use of such paper, to subscribe it to build a monument to this ex-chancellor of the Exchequer. He had said, that the Bank of England had contributed to the dis-
8
l.;
l.;
l.
9
10
11
Earl Grosvenor
said, that although the subject was one of the utmost importance, still he was not at present prepared to go so far as his noble friend who spoke last. However desirable it might be to agitate the question at some future period, he could not at present support the amendment. His object in rising was, to say a few words in reference to the Speech from the throne. He must, however, premise, that he felt much regret that his Majesty was not able to attend in person, for the purpose of opening the session. He feared the circumstance
12
13
l.,
14
Lord Teynham
said, he should oppose the amendment. With respect to the Corn laws, it should be recollected that the country was at present in an artificial state; that we were subject to an enormous taxation; and that while such was the case, it was not to be expected that the grower of corn here could compete with the foreign grower upon any thing like equal terms. The agricultural interest had been always anxious to lighten the distresses of the other classes of the community. The difficulties of the present time did not arise from the corn laws, but were mainly to be attributed to that spirit of ruinous speculation which had unfortunately taken possession of the country. He did not see how the present military establishment could be reduced, consistently with the best interests of the country. He trusted that, in conformity with the suggestion thrown out in the Speech from the throne, such measures would be adopted as would prevent the recurrence of the difficulties which had lately been experienced in the money-market.
The Marquis of Lansdown
said, he did not rise for the purpose of at present discussing the unfortunate topic which formed so prominent a part of the Speech from the throne, for it would be impossible for the House to enter upon that topic, without having received any information respecting the nature of the views and intentions of his Majesty's government. It was a subject upon which he could not say any thing, without saying a great deal; he would not, therefore, now attempt to inquire how far that measure would be obliged to receive re-consideration, which authorized the issuing of 1
l.
l.
15
The Earl of Liverpool
said, that he did not feel himself warranted in intruding on the attention of the House for the purpose of entering into a discussion upon the several very important topics which naturally grew out of the Speech from the throne, and which undoubtedly involved questions of the greatest political interest. After the statement made by the noble marquis, be certainly did not conceive himself called upon to enter upon the consideration of those important points on the present occasion. At the same time he considered it necessary, with respect to a question of so much political interest, that he should use no reserve—not as to details, for it would be impossible to treat of them with effect at that moment—but
16
17
l.;
l.,
l.
l.
l.
18
19
20
The Earl of Carnarvon
doubted whether the gradual withdrawal of the 1
l.
l.
21
The Earl of Lauderdale
said, that from the time he had first thought upon the subject, he had always been of opinion that a paper currency, convertible into gold on demand, was that which was best adapted for the transaction of the business of a country. A currency of that decription at present existed in this country. He challenged any of their lordships to state an instance, since the resumption of cash payments, in which gold had not been given in exchange for paper when demanded. In his opinion it was not to the currency that it was necessary to look for the origin of the existing embarrassments. In the course of the last year there had been a demand on the capital and labour of the country, to the extent of 17,000,000
l.
22
The Amendment was negatived, and the Address agreed to without a division.
HOUSE OF COMMONS.
Thursday, February 2, 1826.
ADDRESS ON THE KING'S SPEECH AT
The Speaker having reported the Speech of the Lords Commissioners, and read it to the House,
Mr. John Stuart Wortley
(member for Bossiney) rose, for the purpose of moving an Address to his Majesty, in answer to the Speech which had just been read. In doing so, he was, he said, aware of the difficulty of the task which he had undertaken, from the circumstance of his being a young member, and this being the first time he had had the honour to address that assembly. It had been the duty of his predecessors, in the task which was now assigned him, to congratulate the country upon its flourishing condition. In the Speech which had been just read, he also found motive for congratulation; although the year which had passed over them had not been marked by some so pre-eminent advantages as former years had been. In adverting to the royal Speech, the first subject that arrested his attention was the formidable shock which the commercial credit had recently sustained. This was the topic that most strongly challenged the attention of the House; and they should come to the consideration of it boldly and manfully, with a view of removing it, or at least, checking its increase. And here due credit must be given to ministers for having introduced this important subject to the notice of parliament. They stated it with candour, and admitted it without
23
24
25
26
27
28
Mr. Green
said, that, situated as England was, owing her great general prosperity to commerce and manufactures, and dependent, especially in time of peace, upon those sources for the high station which she maintained among the nations of the world, it would ill become the government of the country, if, when any danger threatened those manufactures, or temporary evil led to a convulsion in them, it failed to bring the subject in the fullest as well as in the most speedy way, before the consideration of parliament. The subject was one as to the importance of which there could be no second opinion. It was a subject which parliament would investigate, not merely as regarded circumstances of present or local distress, but taking it in a large and comprehensive point of view; considering the several effects likely, in various quarters, to result from it; and particularly the consequences which it might produce upon that general mercantile credit and confidence which were so essential to the success of all commercial speculation. In speaking of the
29
30
31
32
33
34
Mr. Brougham
said, it was a subject of great regret, that ministers had departed from the old and established practice of delivering a copy of the king's Speech, for the information of members, a few days before they were called on to discuss it and to vote upon its contents. This want of courtesy on their part was attended with considerable inconvenience. Although there were not many definite propositions laid down in the Speech just delivered from the Throne, there were a variety of important matters touched upon in it, and the House were called upon to discuss and vote upon them, without half an hour's previous notice, or any means of making up their minds upon the subject. Members were thus called upon to accede to the address, which was foisted upon them by a side wind, and no option was afforded them but of either moving an adjournment, or of blindly voting for that into which they had no opportunity of inquiring. Although it was not his intention to move an adjournment, or even to oppose the present address, he thought it necessary to protest against its being inferred that he therefore acceded to its contents; on the contrary, he reserved to himself the future occasions that might arise for discussing the topics which it embraced, as fully as if he had not voted for it that evening. He could not help feeling, that the address would go to the public, as if there were a general concurrence of the House in the statements which it contained; whereas no such inference ought to be drawn from the circumstance
35
36
37
38
39
40
Mr. Robertson
said, that the distress of the country, great as it was at present, was only in its commencement, unless vigorous measures were applied to its relief. It would be recollected that during the last session he had implored the House and the ministry to step forth and secure the country from the open and barefaced spoliation which it was suffering by the machinations of joint-stock companies, from one end to the other. He clearly predicted what had proved to be the actual consequences of those schemes. And if he had thus seen beforehand the multitude of evils which had since been realized, he thought he had given the House sufficient warrant for the correctness of his opinions to entitle him to some portion of their attention. He considered the present embarrassments as the unavoidable consequences of that policy which had directed the public counsels, and which was now often years' duration. Should the government persevere in it, the existing calamities would be more than a gradual approach to the crisis. The House was bound to step in, and rescue the manufacturing and landed interests from that ruin which awaited them. He spoke upon the deepest reflection and consideration; and as far as facts were concerned, he was guided by statements which had been laid upon their table. If those statements were valid, that which he had to offer must make a serious impression on the House. The present difficulties might pass away; but greater remained behind, unless an end were brought to that speculative and gambling system of commerce which had produced it. Before he went into the subject, he would read to the House a passage out of an excellent pamphlet written fifteen years ago by the present right hon. president
41
l.,
l.:
l.
l.
42
l.
l.
43
44
l
l
l
45
The Chancellor of the Exchequer
confessed that he did not clearly comprehend the drift of the arguments of the hon. member for Grampound; and felt utterly at a loss how to reply to them. The speech of his hon. friend appeared to contain some propositions of rather a startling nature; for if he understood him rightly, the effect of his argument tended directly not only to that consummation, which his hon. friend certainly desired, the extinction of our foreign commerce; but also to the extinction of all the advantages of our home industry. So, at least, did it appear to him. His argument was, that the greater part of the distresses of the country was to be attributed to excessive exports; and then again his greatest dread seemed to be from the operation of the principles of free trade, by excessive importations. How to reconcile such seeming contardictions, he must leave to the ingenious and speculative mind of his hon. friend. As to the crimes alleged against the government, at first he felt perfectly astounded—he could not conceive what he himself, or his right hon. friends had been about, to deserve the denunciation—he quite trembled at the terrible consequences which, were to follow. But lo, and behold! some distinguished members of his majesty's government had lent their names to a speculation, the most innocent that had ever
46
47
48
49
l
l
l
50
51
52
53
54
l
l
l
l
55
Mr. Ellice
rose, he said, rather to advert to one serious omission in the Speech from the throne, than to follow the right hon. gentleman through the various topics on which he had addressed the House. But, before he did this, he must offer one or two observations on what had fallen from him respecting the currency, and the measures proposed to place it on a more satisfactory footing. He thought the greatest caution should be observed in extending the system of banking, without providing efficient checks against the abuses to which recent events had proved it so liable. The Scotch chartered banks were, in some respects, to be regarded with as much jealousy as the country banks in England. They had not been behind hand in giving encouragement to over trading and speculation, and their issues of paper had at least been on an equal scale, with those during the last two years in this country. Their present situation was probably as much to be ascribed to good fortune, as good management, and they might not have been found better prepared than their neighbours, if the recent panic had travelled northwards, and exposed them to the same severe trial. In future legislation on this subject, it would be well to advert to the expediency of encouraging the collection of large masses of capital in the hands of persons issuing local notes, for which interest was allowed to depositors. The banker must look in this case for a profit beyond the interest, and was tempted in prosperous times either to lock up his funds, or to embark them in hazardous speculations with that object. On any
56
57
Mr. Hume
said, that the right hon., the chancellor of the Exchequer had carried them back to former years in the course of his speech, but had forgotten to point out what appeared to be the principal cause of all the distress about which he had occasion to speak. Without intending to disapprove of the speech of the right hon. gentleman, he must enter his protest against the praises which he had heaped upon the Bank of England. It appeared to him just as if an incendiary were to be praised, because, after he had kindled the flame, he endeavoured to put it out. If the Bank of England had known the true principles of banking, or if it had taken example by the events of 1793, it would never have allowed the course of exchange to remain for seven whole months against this country. He however hailed the proposition of the government as the commencement of better times, though he could not but regret that no bank was to be permitted within sixty-five miles of the metropolis; for if they were wanted any where, it was in London itself, in order that there might be something like competition to keep the Bank of England at bay. The right hon. gentleman had taken great credit to himself for the prescience with which he had pointed out the course of the revenue; but, in so doing, he had taken care not to go back to that period at which the government had been so lavish of their promises as to the reduction of taxation. Did the right hon. gentleman's speech, he would ask, hold out the smallest hopes of reduction in the military establishment of the country, which was tearing it to pieces? In the year 1793, when the country was at war, four millions and a half had been found sufficient to pay the military establishments at that time. And, what was the amount required at present? Something between nine and ten millions; and, at the very time that they were receiving assurances from his majesty of there being every prospect of a continuance of peace. In 1793, the whole taxation of the country did not exceed eighteen millions, while its parochial assessments were not more than two millions. What was the case at present? The taxation of the country amounted to the incredible sum of fifty-five millions, and the poor rates and parochial assessments to six or seven millions annually. In such a state of things it was mere fallacy to talk of relieving the distresses of the
58
59
l
l
l
l
l
60
61
62
63
Mr. T. Wilson
said, he was a friend to the general principle of free trade, but that he thought the silk-trade, under present circumstances, ought to be made an exception; or at least that the principle should not be extended to that branch of our trade, while the monopoly of the corn trade was allowed to exist. He would! not press the subject at that moment;! but, at some future time he should feel it his duty to bring it under the consideration of the House, for he was quite convinced that unless some alteration was made in the corn laws, it was impossible that the silk-trade could go on under the existing regulations.
Mr. John Smith
was of opinion, that unless the chancellor of the Exchequer entered into a much more full explanation of his imperfect statement than he had given, the effect would be, to increase that panic and alarm, of the existence of which he must be fully aware. He entirely concurred with the right hon. gentleman, in most of his observations respecting the issue of small notes by private banks, and of the injury which had accrued there from in some instances; but, he must remind the right hon. gentleman, that the undefined manner in which he had alluded to the intention of allowing joint-stock company banks, with a greater number of partners, and with, of course, a very large capital, might have an effect injurious to many banks within sixty-five miles of the metropolis, unless he explained immediately the time when this proposition was to be carried into effect. Without such explanation his proposition might create an alarm, and produce a recurrence of the panic which they were all so anxious to prevent. He did hope, therefore, that before the close of this debate the right hon. gentleman would give some explanation on this point. He hoped that in any plan which might be adopted, no privileges would be given that would go to destroy the ancient establish-
64
65
Mr. Cripps
defended the country banks from the imputations to which the had recently been so generally subjected. No one, he said, could judge fairly of their merits, except those who were interested in the subject. The failures that had taken place among them were principally owing to a want of knowledge on the part of those who had the management of the concern: the bankers who had a! common share of prudence, had experienced little difficulty in weathering the storm. He did not know that the existence of one pound notes was so great an evil as seemed to be imagined. On the contrary, he was: satisfied that their circulation had been! beneficial to the public. Whatever might be said of country banks, a great part of j the prosperity of the country was mainly attributable to the facilities and the indulgences which they had afforded. He was quite sure, that if the existing sys I tem were suddenly altered, or without great deliberation, an effect would be produced on the country which was not at all anticipated. In every part of England, and in the agricultural counties particularly, the country banks had, undoubtedly, lent a large part of their capital on mortgage. But, it by no means followed, that they had not obtained security. If, however, they were suddenly driven to call in all these loans, an alarm would be occasioned, the ultimate result of which no one could foresee. The debts due to them might be good debts; but, when the House saw, only six weeks ago, that any man who could not suddenly turn his parchments into gold was a ruined man, they might have some notion of the evil which a precipitate measure might generate. If left alone, eventually they might bring their affairs round; but if suddenly compelled to meet a parliamentary measure, such as that alluded to by the right hon. gentleman, they might be driven to dispose of their property to such disadvantage, as not to be able to pay ten shillings in the pound. He had thought
66
Mr.Maberly
said, he could not express an opinion upon the proposed measures without offering his meed of concurrence in all that had been said of the conduct of the Bank of England, during the late shock to which the public credit had been exposed. He was ready to admit, that in what had been said of that body, justice only had been done them; and even if the right hon. gentleman had gone further, he would have been warranted by the course which the Bank had pursued, in circumstances more trying and extraordinary than ever a commercial body was placed in before. To their energy and determination, although in opposition to their usual principles, was the salvation of the country to be attributed. But, whilst he gave them praise where they deserved it, he was bound to say, that their good intentions might have been more beneficially developed, if they had not crippled themselves by the dead weight on mortgages. This, however, was an abstract operation, and he should not now go into it. All he should say was, that he did not think the difficulties which the Bank had contributed so largely to alleviate were attributable exclusively to the misfortunes of the commercial world, or to the failure of the country banks; for sure he was, that they had been much aggravated by the measures of the right hon. gentleman and his colleagues in deluging the country with so large an issue of their promissory notes. The weight of thirty millions of Exchequer bills was calculated to produce a great languor in the money transactions of the country; and he was sure that, if the Bank of England had not gone into the Exchequer market, and taken up those bills, the panic would have been ten times more dreadful. Indeed, he doubted whether, if this had not taken place, the dividends due in October or January would have been paid. It would be a neglect of duty not to remind the country that it. was by the promptitude with which the Bank had come forward that the country was saved from
67
Mr. Pearse,
as one of the directors of that establishment, rose to defend the conduct which the Bank had pursued during the late crisis, and to deprecate the tone of triumph in which the right hon. gentleman had described the result of his late negotiations with that body. The advances which tile Bank had made upon stock, and also those which it had made upon mort-gages, had been made with a view of alleviating the embarrassments of the commercial and the agricultural interests, and not with any view of beating down the rate of interest of money. The Bank had acted with the utmost prudence and consideration in the whole of the late tremendous convulsion; and he thought that the House would agree with him, that the I public had never been brought into any scrape by its proceedings, or when it had got into a scrape by other means, had ever been unassisted by the Bank with the means of getting out of it. He had been connected with the Bank for the last forty years—a period as eventful as any in the annals of the world, and he would solemnly say, with all that experience before him, that he never saw the directors influenced by unworthy motives. In all questions that came before them, they considered the interest of the country as that which was paramount to all others, being well aware, that when that interest was secured,
68
Mr. Secretary Canning
said, that although he had not expected that any difference of opinion would have been excited by the speech of his right hon. friend, still, as some strange misconception had arisen upon several of the topics contained in it, he was anxious to state to the House the manner in which he had himself understood them. The House had been addressed by two hon. members from different sides of the House, who had both evidently misconceived the meaning of his right hon. friend. The misconception of one of the hon. gentlemen was perhaps natural, and at any rate might be accounted for; but, how the misconception of the other had arisen, it was impossible for him to imagine. The hon. gentleman opposite seemed to apprehend that his right hon. friend had a plan for erecting joint-stock banking companies or corporations, which would swallow up all the existing establishments. Now, the plan of his right hon. friend went no further than to take off, with the consent of the Bank of England, a few years sooner than it would otherwise expire, a prohibition, of which the effect, by the concurrent opinion of all who had spoken upon the subject, was to make weakness, instead of strength, an inherent quality in the system of country banking. It required not the agency of his right hon. friend, that the evil which the hon. gentleman apprehended should take place in the year 1833; that there should then be no longer any privilege in the Bank of England to prevent more than six persons from becoming partners in the same banking concern; that that privilege should then cease with the existence of the Bank charter; and that such corporations and joint-stock companies as the hon. gentleman appeared so much to dread, should then rise up in all parts of the country. But, under what circumstances, he would ask the hon. gentleman, would that evil occur, supposing the present law to remain unaltered? On the one hand, the privilege of the Bank of England, which prevented the spreading of a wider basis for the transactions of country banks, would continue to exist till the year 1833; and, on the other, there was by law in the country banks an unlimited power to issue small notes up to precisely the same period. Now, if the undoing of the privilege of the Bank of England was so fraught with mischief as the hon. gentleman seemed to
69
70
71
72
73
*
*
74
75
Mr. Calcraft
contended, that the distress under which the commercial world was now labouring had not been entirely occasioned by excessive speculation and over-trading. The government and the Bank, by contriving to beat down the rate of interest, had done far more mischief than the present system of country banks. "Why had nothing been said against the London banks? It was their stopping which had stopped the country banks, and the evil ought to be attributed to the right cause. He defended the country banks. From the great competition among them, it was mere matter of option whether a man took their notes or not. If he did not like them, he might take them to their banking-house and compel them to pay him in specie. What objection was there to this part of the system? Of the whole number of country banks, not one-tenth had stopped; and of those which had been compelled to suspend payment, many had paid, or would be enabled to pay all demands upon them. He would be the last man to allude unnecessarily to distresses which all must deplore; but when so much had been said respecting the failures of the banks, he might be permitted to remind the House that there had been other failures with which the country banks had no connexion, and which had been the occasion of infinitely greater distress, than all the country banks put together. The system which
76
The Chancellor of the Exchequer
said, that the hon. gentleman was mistaken if he imagined that he had recommended an issue of one pound notes as a remedy for the present distress. It would have been preposterous for him to do so; because he had already stated his belief, that the issue of one pound country bank notes had contributed to the existing evils; and this observation applied with equal force to the Bank of England.
Mr. Grenfell
said, he felt it due to the Bank of England to say, that when the distress was at its height, the directors had come forward in the most liberal manner, and thrown themselves into the breach, to avert, as far as they could, the danger which threatened the country.
Mr. Baring
said, that the chancellor of the Exchequer, in omitting to state at what time he intended to carry his measure into effect, had prevented the House from judging of its expediency. It would make a great difference whether it was to take effect within two years or within six months from this time. It could not be denied that the present state of the country was ominous. He had no hesitation in attributing that distress to the extent to which the circulation of paper money had been pushed about eighteen months ago, and for which the country banks, and, he was sorry to say, the Bank of England were answerable. He did not mean now to discuss at any length that responsibility; but as this was, in his opinion, the only part of the conduct of the Bank that was liable to animadversion, he thought it would be neither just nor prudent to withhold this observation. The Bank of England, by the facilities which they afforded, had been the authors of that dangerous redundancy of money, that
77
78
79
80
81
l
l
82
83
Mr. Huskisson
said, that although he had listened to the observations of the hon. member for Taunton with all the attention so justly due to his profound commercial knowledge, and extensive experience, yet, as so many opportunities would occur for a better examination of the various topics touched upon in the course of his address on this occasion, he would not go further than to reiterate the determination expressed by his right hon. friend, of hot going into any details, until the House should be more fully in possession of the nature of the measures which it had been resolved at the present crisis to adopt. This much he might, however, say, that his right hon. friend would, at the earliest possible moment, submit his proposition for their consideration. The House would, he trusted, when any delay was complained of, recollect that it was only on the coming morning, when any plan of the House; adopted by the Bank directors, at the suggestion of his majesty's ministers, could be by them submitted to the approbation of the proprietors, whose trustees they were, and without whose sanction no measures could be resolved upon between government
84
85
Sir M. W. Ridley
suggested, that in order to carry into effect the intentions of government, a short bill should be passed to prevent new issues, as the one pound notes were not to be withdrawn till they were worn out. Many insinuations, he said, had been thrown out against the country bankers, which were as unfounded as they were unnecessary. That the country bankers had been the means of producing the commercial distress, he entirely denied. They had no power of over-issue; they were unable to raise a fictitious credit: they could not keep in circulation a single note longer than it was absolutely necessary. The Bank of England, when not required to pay in gold, could issue as many notes as they pleased; but the country bankers, who had always been obliged to pay in gold or Bank of England notes, were necessarily restrained from any over issue. The right hon. gentleman had made a calculation, as to the number of country notes in circulation. The best authority on that point was the Stamp office. He had estimated them at different periods at
86
Mr. Hudson Gurney
said, he did not rise to object to any of the plans indicated by the chancellor of the Exchequer; but, he could not let the debate close, without remarking, that the right hon. gentleman, and all those who had followed him, utterly blinked the main question, which was intirely a question of prices. Mr. Gurney said, he had always disliked the bankers' circulation, and particularly detested their one pound notes. He had always been convinced, that it was their circulation, that was, their bidding against each other in credits, which had reduced the banking business to the minimum of
87
l
s.
Mr. Denman
said, he did not mean to question the conduct of the Bank of England, nor the justice of the high eulogium passed upon it. The directors had a duty to perform towards the proprietors; but as far as the public were concerned, he did not conceive that they, more than any private bankers, were bound to consult the public interest. The interests of the proprietors alone they were bound to promote, when they did not interfere with the rights of others. The hon. member, as the organ of that powerful establishment, in giving the reason why it wished for a change in its charter, had thought fit to eulogise it, and said that every thing was right and proper. He had lauded their judgment, liberality, and promptitude. This reminded him of the epigram of Prior—
"To John I ow'd great obligation,
But John unluckily thought fit
To publish it to all the nation,
So John and I are more than quit."
88
89
Mr. Alderman Wood
said, he had a word to offer upon the sufferings of his constituents, than whom there were not a
90
The Address was then agreed to.
HOUSE OF COMMONS.
Friday, February 3, 1826.
Mr. BROGDEN.
The Chancellor of the Exchequer
Mr. Brogden
observed, that he had for a considerable period discharged the duties of the office to which he had now been re-appointed, he trusted, with zeal and diligence. Circumstances had occurred since the last session which made him desirous of occupying the attention of the House for a few minutes, in order that he might exculpate himself from the gross imputations which had been cast upon him in the newspapers. Under those aspersions on his character he had suffered greatly. It would be impossible to describe how severely his feelings had been wounded. It had been said, that no person suffered unjustly, at least without some ground; but he was an example to the contrary. In the matter he referred to (the Arigna Mine concern) he had the satisfaction to say, that 150 gentlemen had met at the city of London Tavern, who had completely absolved him and another member of the House from any improper conduct in regard to the company, and had requested him to continue a director. The hon. member added, that he would not descend to minute details in order to rebut the allegations in the newspapers; a proceeding at law would be instituted against one libel. He had received a letter which would abundantly show the conviction entertained of his entire innocence in the affair referred to, and which he proposed to read to the House. The hon. member, however, on searching, found that he had omitted to
91
ADDRESS ON THE KING'S SPEECH AT
On the motion for bringing up the report of the Address on the King's Speech,
Mr. Whitmore
took occasion to regret, that the question of the Corn-laws was not to be brought forward by ministers in the present session. He had much confidence in the sincerity and good intentions of government; but, looking at that question as the one which must form the groundwork of every thing like a system of free trade, he could not help fearing that some unfortunate influence was operating to postpone its discussion. So satisfied was he, that without a proper settlement of the corn question, all attempts to keep up a scheme of free trade must be ineffectual, as ministers did not mean to bring it forward, he should feel it his duty to bring it on himself. He regretted thus to undertake a task which he had hoped to see performed by abler hands; particularly as government stood, in a great degree, pledged to the discussion of the subject. He was glad to hear the gentlemen opposite declare, that the present distresses (which he trusted would be transitory) would make no difference in the views which they had acted upon during the last session. The stoppage in the silk trade arose, in a great degree, from the apprehension of the masters as to the effects of the new measures; which apprehensions would be entirely removed when those measures came into full operation. The change which was pro-
92
Sir Charles Forbes
applied himself to that part of the Speech which touched upon the affairs of India; and reminded the House, that the observations of the hon. member for Montrose, on the preceding evening, were unanswered. He concurred with that hon. member as to the rise and progress of the war in India, and trusted that what he had said would have due weight with the House. The state in which we were now placed as to India was extremely critical, and he thought that upon the Burmese war there could be but one opinion; namely, that it ought to be ended as speedily as possible. The war had now lasted two years. It had assumed the character of a war of extermination. We might force our way, by the blood and valour of our soldiers, to the Burmese capital; but when we got there, we should be no nearer a termination of the contest than before. The Speech of last session had told the House, that none of the other native powers of India were inimically disposed towards us. The Speech delivered from the throne this session did not venture to tell us so much. If, as he contended, the country had involved itself in an unjust and dangerous war, the best way to escape would be by retracing their steps. He regretted that the wishes of the country had not been complied with by the recal of lord Amherst, a nobleman who, however amiable his private character, was evidently incompetent to discharge the high duties of governor-general of India. If we did not adopt different measures, we must make up our minds to lose India.
Mr. Carwen
said, that the manufacturers were grossly mistaken, if they attributed any part of their distress to the operation of the Corn laws. If rightly understood, they would be found to be highly beneficial to the commercial interests of the country.
93
Mr. Wynn
said, he had not replied to the hon. member for Aberdeen's observations on the subject of India on the preceding evening, because he thought the whole matter an episode to the general discussion, and because he knew the hon. gentleman too well to have any apprehension that he would be long without speaking upon the subject a second time. The right lion, gentleman then proceeded to defend both the principle and the conduct of the Burmese war; and declared, that the declaration of lord Amherst was fully borne out by all facts. Could any one deny, not merely that actual aggression had been committed against us by the Burmese, but that a disposition to the commission of such aggression had for a long time been manifested? As for the conduct of our troops, and the success of our arms, who could impeach either? If an enemy constantly flying before us, did not bear testimony to the valour of our troops, he did not know what the hon. gentleman would desire. As for any unfriendly disposition among the native powers of India towards us, he denied its existence. It was true that our army, or a portion of it, had suffered severely from sickness. This did not arise, however, from any peculiarity in the climate, but from those causes which must always, in a greater or less degree, attend upon campaigns in India. By the last accounts, however, the sickness was diminishing; and by the next, he had hopes that it would be found lessened in a still greater degree. He had not the slightest doubt that the valour of our soldiers, and the ability of their leaders, would bring the contest to an honourable and fortunate conclusion. He should hear of such a termination with as much pleasure as any man. But though it was our policy to avoid war as long as it could safely be avoided, it was impossible for us to overlook insults, or to shrink from entering into a contest, where it was obstinately presented to us.
Mr. Hutchinson
denied that his hon. friend had insinuated any thing against our troops in India, he had only lamented, that those troops were put in a situation where, instead of coming in contact with the enemy, they encountered contagion. Many individuals acquainted with India, and sensible of the imminent danger of a war there, were far from being convinced of the necessity of the present contest. For himself, he discovered a culpable omission in the Speech from the throne.
94
95
Mr. Lockhart
said, he did not feel so much apprehension as had been expressed by many hon. members, at the late agitations in the commercial affairs of the country, because he considered occasional paroxysms of that nature as inseparable from the enlarged and growing bulk of the trade and resources of this great nation. He could not agree in attributing any of the distress which had prevailed to the Bank of England, though he was not prepared to oppose the measures which were to be proposed for opening the traffic to other adventurers. He did not see the reasons which limited the Bank of England to a radius of exactly 65 miles. As to improving the business of banking by enlarging the number of persons in the firm, though the existing law limited them to six, it was seldom that a country banking establishment contained so many partners, as the law allowed. He really believed that the average did not exceed three to a firm of all the establishments which existed. But suppose an alteration of the law should enable bankers to enlarge the numbers of the firm, were they sure that persons of property would come in, and, by placing all their disposable funds in a bank, subject themselves to the hazards of trade, and the probable visitation of the bankrupt laws? It was clear to him that they would not. And then, would that bring the public the security go much desired? On the contrary, would not the chances of insolvency be
96
Sir T. Lethbridge
said, he thought it was rather premature to discuss a measure before its details were known. His Majesty's Speech was, in his opinion, calculated to do great good. It expressed the determination of ministers to take the subject into their hands, and to bring it
97
98
Mr. Hume
was astonished to hear the doctrines which had been broached by the hon. baronet. If the views of the hon. baronet were correct, the currency of the country was always regulated by the Corn laws. As well might he have contended, that the monopoly of the tea trade enjoyed by the East India company, or that any other monopoly, had such an influence on it.
Sir T. Lethbridge.
—I said that the Corn laws were closely allied to the state of the currency.
Mr. Hume
said, he did not see what possible connexion existed between them. The hon. baronet had stated, that the sentiments of the manufacturers were altered on the subject of the Corn laws, and that they now viewed them in a favourable point of view. He would not deny, since the hon. baronet had stated the thing as a fact, that there were some manufacturers in Somersetshire who would rather pay 1
s.
d.
99
100
Mr. Fremantle
said, he could assure the House, that every one of the public letters which had recently been received, held out confident hopes of a successful termination of hostilities in India. The hon. gentleman had said, that the Court of Directors had no confidence in lord Amherst. This statement was disproved by the fact, that the directors had, if they chose to exercise it, the power of recalling him; which they had not done. Ought the conduct of such a man to be judged of by private letters? If there was any part of the noble lord's conduct on which the hon. gentleman could lay his finger in the way of censure, he was warranted in doing so; but let him do it on ostensi-
101
Sir C. Forbes
said, it should, in justice to lord Amherst, be stated, that he was not in any degree implicated in the unfortunate occurrence at Barrackpore. He therefore hoped, that, in justice to the noble lord, all papers relating to that transaction would be laid before the House.
Mr. Wynn
could not see on what ground it should have been thought, that lord Amherst was implicated in the affair of Barrackpore. He was in possession of a variety of documents, which would remove any such opinion; but he did not think it necessary to lay them before the House. Equally unfounded were the reports which were daily published as extracts from private letters from India. The writers of those letters filled them with idle gossip, as if they wished to ascertain how far the credulity of their friends in England would go.
Mr. Hume
defended the authenticity of the information contained in the letters to which he had referred. As to the affair at Barrackpore, the conduct of the government was most blameable, in neglecting to give any answer to the applications made to them on the part of the troops which had refused to march. The then adjutant-general was now in London, and therefore the truth of the circumstance to which he alluded might be easily ascertained. Another ground on which he objected to the conduct of the Indian government on that occasion, was the manner in which it had behaved towards the native officers of the refractory troops. It was admitted, that they had remained faithful to their engagement to the Company, and refused to join their mutinous troops; yet, after this, and because they had not foreseen or prevented what had happened, every one of them was dismissed the service, as no longer worthy of the confidence of the Company. Was this a just or reasonable course towards men who had acted with such fidelity; or was it any encouragement to officers who might be placed in similarly delicate situations? Again he asked, what was the conduct of the government towards the unfortunate men who had been convicted of mutiny? They were (many of them men of high caste) condemned to work in irons on the public roads. It was true this was a commutation of the punishment of death,
102
Mr. Fremantle
observed, that the hon. member was greatly misled, if he believed that no communication was made to the refractory troops for ten days before it was found necessary to resort to force. The very reverse was the fact; for, from the time that they first objected to march, up to the period when the fatal termination of the affair occurred, communications were every day made to them, and no pacific effort that could be resorted to was left untried. An offer was made on the part of the general officer in command, to refer the case to a court of inquiry, and the troops were told to send those of their body in whom they could most confide, to attend that court, and explain the nature of their complaints; and that if found reasonable, they should be immediately redressed. They refused, however, to listen to any terms of accommodation.
The address was then agreed to.
HOUSE OF LORDS.
Monday, February 6, 1826.
MR. COWPER—CLERK ASSISTANT.
Lord Gifford
read a letter from Mr. Cowper, stating that, from infirmity he was unable to attend to discharge the duties of his office, and begging that their lordships would be pleased to accept his resignation. He further begged leave to lay before the House the deep sense of the gratitude he felt for the attention they had paid to him during forty-one years he had been their servant.
The Earl of Liverpool
said, there could be but one opinion, as to what ought to be done on hearing the letter which had just been read. He was sure their lordships would take the earliest opportunity of recording the sense they entertained of Mr. Cowper's services. He therefore
103
HOUSE OF COMMONS.
Monday, February 6, 1826.
BANK OF ENGLAND—COMMUNICATIONS RELATING TO ALTERATION IN
The following Papers were laid on the table of the House:—
COPIES of COMMUNICATION between the First Lord of the Treasury and the Chancellor of the Exchequer, and the Governor and Deputy Governor of the Bank of England, relating to an alteration in the Exclusive privileges enjoyed by the Bank of England.
No. I.
Fife House, Jan.
Gentlemen.—We have the honour of transmitting to you herewith a Paper, containing our views upon the present state of the Banking System of this country, with our suggestions thereupon, which we request you will lay before the Court of Directors of the Bank of England for their consideration. We have the honour to be, gentlemen, &c.
(Signed) Liverpool.
FREDERICK JOHN ROBINSON.
The Governor and Deputy-Governor of the Bank of England.
The panic in the money-market having subsided, and the pecuniary transactions of the country having reverted to their accustomed course, it becomes important to lose no time in considering whether any measures can be adopted to prevent the recurrence in future, of such evils as we have recently experienced.
However much the recent distress may have been aggravated, in the judgment of some, by incidental circumstances and particular measures, there can be no doubt that the principal source of it is to be found in the rash spirit of speculation which has pervaded the country for some time, supported, fostered, and encouraged by the country banks.
The remedy, therefore, for this evil in future, must be found in an improvement in the circulation of country paper; and the first measure which has suggested itself, to most of those who have considered the subject, is a recurrence to gold circulation throughout the country, as well as in the metropolis and its neighbourhood, by a repeal of the act which permits country banks to issue one and two pound notes until the year 1833; and by the immediate enactment of a prohibition of any such issues at the expiration of two or three years from the present period.
It appears to us to be quite clear, that such a measure would be productive of much good; that it would operate as some check upon the spirit of speculation, and upon the issues of country banks; and whilst, on the one hand,
104
We have abundant proof of the truth of this position, in the events which took place in the spring of 1793, when a convulsion occurred in the money transactions and circulation of the country more extensive than that which we have recently experienced. At that period nearly a hundred country banks were obliged to stop payment, and Parliament was induced to grant an issue of Exchequer-bills to relieve the distress. Yet, in the year 1793, there were no one or two pound notes in circulation in England, either by country banks or by the Bank of England.
We have a further proof of the truth of what has been advanced, in the experience of Scotland, which has escaped all the convulsions which have occurred in the money-market of England for the last thirty-five years, though Scotland during the whole of that time has had a circulation of one-pound notes; and the small pecuniary transactions of that part of the United Kingdom have been carried on exclusively by the means of such notes.
The issue of small notes, though it be an aggravation, cannot therefore be the sole or even the main cause of the evil in England.
The failures which have occurred in England, unaccompanied as they have been by the same occurrences in Scotland, tend to prove that there must have been an unsolid and delusive system of banking in one part of Great Britain, and a solid and substantial one in the other.
It would be entirely at variance with our deliberate opinion, not to do full justice to the Bank of England, as the great centre of circulation and commercial credit.
We believe that much of the prosperity of the country for the last century is to be ascribed to the general wisdom, justice, and fairness of the dealings of the Bank; and we further think, that during a great part of that time, it may have been, in itself and by itself, fully equal to all the important duties and operations confided to it. But the progress of the country during the last thirty or forty years, in every branch of industry, in agriculture, manufactures, commerce, and navigation, has been so rapid and extensive, as to make it no reflection upon the Bank of England to say, that the instrument, which, by itself, was fully adequate to former transactions, is no longer sufficient without new aids to meet the demands of the present times.
105
We have to a considerable degree, the proof of this position, in the very establishment of so many country banks.
Within the memory of many living, and even of some of those now engaged in public affairs, there were no country banks, except in a few of the great commercial towns.
The money transactions of the country were carried on by supplies of coin and Bank notes from London.
The extent of the business of the country, and the improvement made from time to time in the mode of conducting our increased commercial transactions, founded on pecuniary credit, rendered such a system no longer adequate, and country banks must have arisen, as in fact they did arise, from the increased wealth and new wants of the country.
The matter of regret is, not that country banks have been suffered to exist, but that they have been suffered so long to exist without control or limitation, or without the adoption of provisions calculated to counteract the evils resulting from their improvidence or excess.
It would be vain to suppose, that we could now, by any act of the legislature, extinguish the existing country banks, even if it were desirable; but it may be within our power, gradually at least, to establish a sound system of banking throughout the country; and if such a system can be formed, there can be little doubt that it would ultimately extinguish and absorb all that is objectionable and dangerous in the present banking establishments.
There appear to be two modes of attaining this object:
First, That the Bank of England should establish branches of its own body in different parts of the country.
Secondly, That the Bank of England should give up its exclusive privilege as to the number of partners engaged in banking, except within a certain distance from the metropolis.
It has always appeared to us, that it would have been very desirable that the Bank should have tried the first of these plans—that of establishing branch banks, upon a limited scale. But we are not insensible to the difficulties which would have attended such an experiment, and we are quite satisfied that it would be impossible for the Bank, under present circumstances, to carry into execution such a system, to the extent necessary for providing for the wants of the country.
There remains, therefore, only the other plan —the surrender by the Bank of their exclusive privilege, as to the number of partners, beyond a certain distance from the metropolis.
The effect of such a measure would be, the gradual establishment of extensive and respectable banks in different parts of the country; some perhaps with charters from the Crown, under certain qualifications, and some without.
Here we have again the advantage of the experience of Scotland.
106
In England there are said to be between 800 and 900 country banks; and it is no exaggeration to suppose that a great proportion of them have not been conducted with a due attention to those precautions which are necessary for the safety of all banking establishments, even where their property is most ample. When such banks stop, their creditors may ultimately be paid the whole of their demands, but the delay and shock to credit may, in the mean time, involve them in the same difficulty, and is always attended with the greatest injury and suffering in the district where such stoppages occur. If this be the case where the solidity of the bank is unquestionable, what must it be when (as too often happens) they rest on no solid foundation.
In Scotland there are not more than thirty banks; and these banks have stood firm amidst all the convulsions in the money-market in England, and amidst all the distresses to which the manufacturing and agricultural interests in Scotland, as well as in England, have occasionally been subject.
Banks of this description must necessarily be conducted upon the general understood and approved principles of banking.
Individuals are, from the nature of the institutions, precluded from speculating in the manner in which persons engaged in country, and even in London banks, speculate in England.
If the concerns of the country could be carried on without any other bank than the Bank of England, there might be some reason for not interfering with their exclusive privilege; but the effect of the law at present is, to permit every description of banking, except that which is solid and secure.
Let the Bank of England reflect on the dangers to which it has been recently subject, and let its directors and proprietors then say, whether, for their own interests, such an improvement as is suggested in the banking system is not desirable, and even necessary.
The Bank of England may perhaps propose, as they did upon a former occasion, the extension of the term of their exclusive privilege, as to the metropolis and its neighbourhood, beyond the year 1833, as the price of this concession.
It would be very much to be regretted that they should require any such condition.
It is clear that in point of security they would gain by the concession proposed to them, inasmuch as their own safety is now necessarily endangered by all such convulsions in the country circulation as we have lately and formerly witnessed.
In point of profit, would they lose any thing by it, for which they are entitled to demand compensation.
It is notorious, that at the present time their notes circulate in no part of England beyond the metropolis and its neighbourhood, except in Lancashire; and perhaps for that district some special provision might be made.
107
But as it is the interest, so it has been and ever will be the endeavour, of the country bankers to keep the Bank of England notes out of circulation in those parts of the kingdom where their own circulation prevails. In this they must always be successful, whilst public credit continues in its ordinary state, and the exchanges not unfavourable to this country. The consequences are, that in such times the Bank of England becomes in a manner the sole depository for gold; and in times of an opposite tendency, the sole resort for obtaining it; that at one period their legitimate profit is curtailed by an accumulation of treasure beyond what would be required by a due attention to their own private safety as a banking establishment; and at another period they are exposed to demands which endanger that safety, and baffle all the ordinary calculations of foresight and prudence.
If, then, the Bank of England has no country circulation, except in the county above named, the only question for them to consider is, whether, on the ground of profit, as well as security to themselves, the existing country circulation shall or shall not be improved.
With respect to the extension of the term of their exclusive privileges in the metropolis and its neighbourhood, it is obvious, from what passed before, that parliament will never agree to it.
Such privileges are out of fashion; and what expectation can the Bank, under present circumstances, entertain that theirs will be renewed? But there is no reason why the Bank of England should look at this consequence with dismay. They will remain a chartered corporation for carrying on the business of banking. In that character they will, we trust, always continue to be the sole bankers of the state, and with these advantages, so long as they conduct their affairs wisely and prudently, they always must be the great centre of banking and circulation.
Theirs is the only establishment at which the dividend due to the public creditor can by law be paid.
It is to be hoped, therefore, that the Bank will make no difficulty in giving up their exclusive privileges, in respect to the number of partners engaged in banking, as to any district——miles from the metropolis.
Should the Bank be disposed to consent to a measure of this nature in time to enable the government to announce such a concession at the opening of parliament, it would afford great facilities to the arrangement which they may have to propose for ensuring the stability of private credit, in which the support of public credit and the maintenance of public prosperity are so materially and closely involved.
No. II.—At a Court of Directors at the Bank, January 20:
This court having taken into consideration the important paper received from the first lord of the Treasury and the chancellor of the Exchequer, have resolved—
108
That however essentially they may differ on certain views and sentiments therein laid down and expressed, it is not for the court at I the present moment to offer any opinions of their own, the paper appearing to be intended as declaratory of the grounds on which his majesty's ministers have come to the determination to require the Bank to give up its exclusive privilege as to the number of partners engaged in banking, except within a certain distance from the metropolis.
It cannot, however, be considered inconsistent with this forbearance, to state the apprehensions of the court of Directors, that confidence is not so fully restored as lord Liverpool and the chancellor of the Exchequer seem to imagine.
Though the panic has subsided, credit, both public and private, remains in a very uncertain and anxious state.
That the country circulation is in many parts extremely defective, cannot be controverted; and the Bank would very reluctantly oppose itself to any measures tending to ameliorate it, but would be glad to promote that object, either by fresh exertions on their part, should such be found practicable, or by any reasonable sacrifice.
Under the uncertainty in which the court of Directors find themselves with respect to the details of the plans of government, and the effect which they may have on the interests of the Bank, this court cannot feel themselves justified in recommending to their proprietors to give up the privilege which they now enjoy, sanctioned and confirmed as it is by the solemn acts of the legislature.
No. III.—The first lord of the Treasury and the chancellor of the Exchequer have duly considered the answer of the Bank of the 20lh inst.
They cannot but regret that the court of Directors should have declined to recommend to the court of Proprietors the consideration of the paper delivered by the first lord of the Treasury and the chancellor of the Exchequer to the governor and deputy governor of the Bank on the 13th instant.
The statement contained in that paper appears to the first lord of the Treasury and chancellor of the Exchequer so full and explicit on all the points to which it relates, that they have nothing further to add, although they would hive been, as they still are, ready to answer, as far as possible, any specific questions which might be put, for the purpose of "removing the uncertainty in which the court of Directors state themselves to be with respect to the details of the plan suggested in that paper."
After all, the simple question for the Bank to consider is, whether they are willing to relinquish their exclusive privilege as to the number of partners engaged in banking at a certain distance from the metropolis?
The first lord of the Treasury and the chancellor of the Exchequer are satisfied that the
109
Convinced of this, and that its adoption by the Bank is as important to their own security as to that of the public, it does not appear that the Bank can be equitably entitled to claim any compensation for the surrender of this privilege of their charter.
Against any proposition for such compensation the first lord of the Treasury and chancellor of the Exchequer formally protest; but if the Bank should be of opinion that this concession should be accompanied with other conditions, and that it ought not to be made without them, it is for the Bank to bring forward such conditions.
Fife-house, Jan.
No. IV.—At a Court of Directors at the Bank, January 26;
The governor laid before the court the following minute of the committee of Treasury, viz.—
Committee of Treasury, Jan. 25.
The committee of Treasury having taken into consideration the paper received from the first lord of the Treasury and the chancellor of the Exchequer, dated January 23, 1826, and finding that his majesty's ministers persevere in their desire to propose to restrict immediately the exclusive privilege of the Bank, as to the number of partners engaged in banking, to a certain distance from the metropolis, and also continue to be of opinion, that parliament would not consent to renew the privilege at the expiration of the period of their present charter; finding, also, that the proposal by the Bank, of establishing branch banks, is deemed by his majesty's ministers inadequate to the wants of the country, are of opinion, that it would be desirable for this corporation to propose, as a basis, the act of the 6th Geo. IV. c. 42, which states the conditions on which the Bank of Ireland relinquished its exclusive privilege; this corporation waving the question of a prolongation of time, although the committee cannot agree in the opinion of the first lord of the Treasury and the chancellor of the Exchequer, that they are not making a considerable sacrifice, adverting especially to the Bank of Ireland remaining in possession of that privilege five years longer than the Bank of England.
The act above alluded to contains the following clauses, sections 4 and 18. [See the annexed paper, marked A.]
(A)—"Provided always, and be it further enacted, that nothing in this act contained shall extend, or be construed to extend, to enable or authorize any such society or copartnership, either by any member or members thereof, or by their agent, or any other person on behalf of such society or copartnership, to pay, issue, or re-issue, at Dublin, or within 50 miles thereof, any bill or note of such society or copartnership, which shall be payable to
110
l.,
"And be it further enacted, that execution upon any judgment in any action obtained against any public officer, for the time being, of any such society or copartnership, whether as plaintiff or defendant, may be issued against any member or members, for the time being, of such society or copartnership, and that in case any such execution against any member or members, for the time being, of such society or copartnership, shall be ineffectual for obtaining payment and satisfaction of the amount of such judgment, it shall be lawful for the party or parties so having obtained judgment against such public officer for the time being, to issue execution against any person or persons who was or were a member or members of such society or copartnership, at the time when the contract or contracts, or engagement or engagements, on which such judgment may have been obtained, was or were entered into. Provided always, that no such execution as last mentioned shall be issued without leave first granted on motion in open court, by the court in which such judgment shall have been obtained, and which motion shall be made on notice to the person or persons sought to be charged; nor after the expiration of three years next after any such person or persons shall have ceased to be a member or members of such society or copartnership."
Resolved,—That the foregoing recommendation of the committee of Treasury be agreed to; and that the governor and deputy governor be requested to lay it before the first lord of the Treasury and the chancellor of the Exchequer.
No. V.—The first lord of the Treasury and the chancellor of the Exchequer have taken into consideration the paper delivered to them by the governor and deputy governor of the Bank, on the 27th instant.
They think it right to lose no time in expressing their concurrence in the proposition which has been sanctioned by the court of Directors, as to the exclusive privilege of the Bank of England, and are willing to agree that the two clauses inserted in the Irish act last year, and referred to in the paper communi
111
The first lord of the Treasury and the Chancellor of the Exchequer cannot conclude without adverting to that part of the paper of the Bank which respects branches of the Bank of England. In their paper of the 13th of January, the first lord of the Treasury and the chancellor of the Exchequer have stated the reasons why they are of opinion that, under all the present circumstances, the establishment of branches of the Bank of England would not of itself be sufficient to meet all the exigencies of the country; but they are so far from wishing to discourage the establishment of such branches, that they are decidedly of opinion, that the formation of them, under proper regulations, would be highly advantageous both to the Bank and to the community.
Fife-house, January 28th.
No. VI.—At a general Court of the Governor and Company of the Bank of England, Friday, February 3rd:
Resolved,—That this court do consent to the terms proposed to the Bank, in the papers now read, and do request the court of Directors to carry the arrangement into effect.
TREATY OF AMITY, COMMERCE, AND NAVIGATION WITH THE STATE OF COLOMBIA.
The following Treaty was laid on the table by the Chancellor of the Exchequer:—
TREATY of AMITY, COMMERCE, and NAVIGATION, between his Majesty and the State of Colombia, together with an additional article thereunto annexed, Signed at Bogota, April 18,1825.
In the name of the Most Holy Trinity—Extensive commercial intercourse having been established for a series of years between the dominions of his Britannic majesty, and the several provinces or countries of America, which (now united) constitute the State of Colombia, it seems good for the security as well as encouragement of such commercial intercourse-and, for the maintenance of good understanding between his said Britannic majesty and the said state, that the relations now subsisting between them should be regularly acknowledged and confirmed by the signature of a treaty of amity, commerce, and navigation. For this purpose they have named their respective plenipotentiaries, that is to say,—His Majesty the King of the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Ireland, John Potter Hamilton, esq.; and Patrick Campbell, esq.;—and the Vice-president, charged with the executive power of the State of Colombia, Pedro Gual, secretary of state in the department for foreign affairs, and general Pedro Briceno Mendez;—r who, after having communicated to each other
112
Art. 1.—There shall be perpetual, firm, and sincere amity between the dominions and subjects of his majesty the king of the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Ireland, his heirs, and successors, and the State and people of Colombia.
Art. 2.—There shall be, between all the territories of his Britannic majesty in Europe, and the territories of Colombia, a reciprocal freedom of commerce. The subjects and citizens of the two countries, respectively, shall have liberty freely and securely to come, with their ships and cargoes, to all such places ports, and rivers, in the territories aforesaid, to which other foreigners are or may be permitted to come, to enter into the same, and to remain and reside in any part of the said territories, respectively; also to hire and occupy houses and warehouses for the purposes of their commerce; and, generally, the merchants and traders of each nation, respectively, shall enjoy the most complete protection and security for their commerce; subject always to the laws and statutes of the two countries, respectively.
Art. 3.—His majesty the king of the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Ireland engages further that the citizens of Colombia shall have the like liberty of commerce and navigation stipulated for in the preceding article, in all his dominions situated out of Europe, to the full extent in which the same is permitted at present, or shall be permitted hereafter, to any other nation.
Art. 4.—No higher or other duties shall be imposed on the importation into the territories of his Britannic majesty, of any articles of the growth, produce, or manufacture of Colombia, —and no higher or other duties shall be imposed on the importation into the territories of Colombia, of any articles of the growth, produce, or manufacture of his Britannic majesty's dominions, than are or shall be payable on the like articles, being the growth, produce, or manufacture of any other foreign country; nor shall any other or higher duties or charges be imposed in the territories or dominions of either of the contracting parties, on the exportation of any articles to the territories or dominions of the other, than such as are or may be payable on the exportation of the like articles to any other foreign country; nor shall any prohibition be imposed upon the exportation or importation of any articles the growth, produce, or manufacture of his Britannic majesty's dominions, or of the said territories of Colombia, to or from the said dominions of his Britannic majesty, or to or from the said territories of Colombia, which shall not equally extend to all other nations.
Art. 5.—No higher or other duties or charges on account of tonnage, light, or harbour dues, pilotage, salvage in case of damage or shipwreck, or any other local charges, shall be im-
113
Art. 6.—The same duties shall be paid on the importation into the territories of Colombia of any article the growth, produce, or manufacture of his Britannic majesty's dominions, whether such importation shall be in Colombian or in British vessels; and the same duties shall be paid on the importation into the dominions of his Britannic majesty of any article of the growth, produce, or manufacture of Colombia, whether such importation shall be in British or Colombian vessels. The same duties shall be paid, and the same drawbacks and bounties allowed, on the exportation to Colombia of any articles of the growth, produce, or manufacture of his Britannic majesty's dominions, whether such exportation shall be in Colombian or in British vessels; and the same duties shall be paid, and the same bounties and drawbacks allowed, on the exportation of any articles the growth, produce, or manufacture of Colombia to his Britannic majesty's dominions, whether such exportation shall be in British or Colombian vessels.
Art. 7.—In order to avoid any misunderstanding with respect to the regulations which may respectively constitute a British or a Colombian vessel, it is hereby agreed, that all vessels built in the dominions of his Britannic majesty, and owned by British subjects, or by any of them, and whereof the master and three-fourths of the mariners, at least, are British subjects, excepting where the laws provide for any extreme cases, shall be considered as British vessels; and that all vessels built in the territories of Colombia, and owned by the citizens thereof, or any of them, and whereof the master and three fourths of the mariners, at least, are Colombian citizens, excepting where the laws provide for any extreme cases, shall be considered as Colombian vessels.
Art. 8.—All merchants, commanders of ships, and others, the subjects of his Britannic majesty, or citizens of the state of Colombia, shall have full liberty, in all the territories of both powers, respectively, to manage their own affairs themselves, or to commit them to the management of whomsoever they please, as broker, factor, agent, or interpreter; nor shall they be obliged to employ any other persons for those purposes, nor to pay them any salary or remuneration unless they shall choose to employ them; and absolute freedom shall be allowed, in all cases, to the buyer and seller, to bargain and fix the price of any goods, wares, or merchandise imported into, or exported from, the territories of either of the contracting parties, as they shall see good.
Art. 9.—In whatever relates to the lading, and unlading of ships, the safety of merchandize, goods, and effects, the succession to personal estates, and the disposal of personal
114
They shall be exempted from all compulsory military service whatsoever, whether by sea or land, and from all forced loans, or military exactions and requisitions; neither shall they be compelled to pay any ordinary taxes, under any pretext whatsoever, greater than those that are paid by the subjects or citizens of one or other power.
Art. 10.—It shall be free for each of the two contracting parties to appoint consuls for the protection of trade, to reside in the dominions and territories of the other party; but before any consul shall act as such, he shall, in the usual form, be approved and admitted by the government to which he is sent; and either of the contracting parties may except from the residence of consuls, such particular places as either of them may judge fit to be so excepted.
Art. 11.—For the better security of commerce between the subjects of his Britannic majesty and the citizens of Colombia, it is agreed, that if at any time any interruption of friendly commercial intercourse, or any rupture should unfortunately take place between the two contracting parties, the subjects or citizens of either of the two contracting parties, residing in the dominions of the other, shall have the privilege of remaining and continuing their trade therein, without any manner of interruption, so long as they behave peaceably, and commit no offence against the laws; and their effects and property, whether intrusted to individuals or to the state, shall not be liable to seizure or sequestration, or to any other demands than those which may be made upon the like effects or property belonging to the native inhabitants of the state in which such subjects or citizens may reside.
Art. 12.—The subjects of his Britannic majesty residing in the territories of the state of Colombia shall enjoy the most perfect and entire security of conscience, without being annoyed, prevented, or disturbed on account of their religious belief. Neither shall they be annoyed, molested, or disturbed in the proper exercise of their religion, provided that this take place in private houses, and with the decorum due to divine worship, with due respect to the laws, usages, and customs of the country. Liberty shall also be granted to bury the subjects of his Britannic majesty, who may die in the said territories of Colombia, in convenient and adequate places, to be appointed and es-
115
Art. 13,—The government of Colombia engages to co-operate with his Britannic majesty for the total abolition of the slave trade, and to prohibit all persons inhabiting within the territories of Colombia, in the most effectual manner, from taking any share in such trade.
Art. 14.—And forasmuch as it would be convenient and useful, for the purpose of facilitating the mutual good understanding between the two contracting parties, and for avoiding all difficulties henceforward, that other articles should be proposed and added to the present treaty, which articles, both from a want of due time for their consideration, as well as from the pressure of circumstances, cannot at present be drawn up with the required perfection, it has been and is agreed, on the part of both powers, that they will, with the least possible delay, come forward to treat and agree upon such articles as may be wanting to this treaty, and deemed mutually beneficial; and which articles, when they shall be agreed upon, and shall be duly ratified, shall form part of the present treaty of amity, commerce, and navigation.
Art. 15.—The present treaty shall be ratified by his majesty the king of the united kingdom of Great Britain and Ireland, and by the president or vice-president charged with the executive power of the state of Colombia, with the consent and approbation of the Congress of the said state; and the ratifications shall be exchanged at London within the space of six months, or sooner if possible.
In witness whereof, the respective plenipotentiaries have signed the same, and have affixed thereto the seals of their arms. Done in the city of Bogota, the 18th day of April, in the year of our Lord 1825.
(L. S.) JOHN POTTER HAMILTON.
(L. S.) PATRICK CAMPBELL.
(L. S.) PEDRO GAUL.
(L. S.) PEDRO BRICENO MENDEZ.
Additional Article.
116
The present additional article shall have the same force and validity as if it were inserted, word for word in the treaty signed this day. It shall be ratified, and the ratifications shall be exchanged at the same time.
In witness whereof, the respective Plenipotentiaries have signed the same, and have affixed thereto the seals of their arms. Done in the city of Bogota, the 18th day of April, in the year of our Lord 1825.
(L. S.) JOHN POTTER HAMILTON.
(L. S.) PATRICK CAMPBELL.
(L. S.) PEDRO GUAL.
(L. S.) PEDRO BRICENO MENDEZ.
Declaration by His Majesty's principal Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs, on the Exchange of Ratifications.
The undersigned, His Majesty's principal Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs, at the moment of exchanging with Senor Manuel Jose Hurtado, Plenipotentiary of the State of Colombia, the ratifications of the treaty of amity, commerce, and navigation, signed at Bogota, on the 18th of April, 1825, by John Potter Hamilton, esq., and Patrick Campbell, esq., on the part of his majesty, and Senor Pedro Gual, and general Pedro Briceno Mendez, on the part of the State of Colombia, has been commanded by his majesty, in order to avoid any misunderstanding which might possibly arise in the execution of that part of the seventh article of the said treaty, wherein it is defined what ships shall be considered as entitled to the privileges of British and Colombian ships to declare to Senor Hurtado, that, in addition to the qualifications therein expressed, such other ships will likewise be entitled to be considered as British ships, which shall have been captured from an enemy by his majesty's ships of war, or by subjects of his majesty furnished with letters of marque by the lords commissioners of the Admiralty, and regularly condemned in one of his majesty's Prize Courts as a lawful prize, or which shall have been condemned in any competent court, for the breach of the laws made for the prevention of the slave trade; and that, in the same manner, ships captured from the enemy by the ships of Colombia, and condemned under similar circumstances, will likewise
117
London, Nov. 7, 1825.
Senor Manuel Jose Hurtado, &c. &c. &c.
Act of Acceptance of the above Declaration, by the Colombian Plenipotentiary.
The undersigned, Plenipotentiary of the State of Colombia, having received from his Britannic majesty's principal Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs, a declaration, stating, "That in order to avoid any misunderstanding which might possibly arise in the execution of that part of the seventh a: tide of the treaty between his Britannic majesty and the State of Colombia, signed at Bogota, on the 18th of April, 1825, wherein it is defined what ships shall be considered as entitled to the privileges of British and Colombian ships, in addition to the qualifications therein expressed, such other ships will likewise be entitled to be considered as British ships, which shall have been captured from an enemy by his Britannic majesty's ships of war, or by subjects of his said majesty furnished with letters of marque by the lords commissioners of the Admiralty, and regularly condemned in one of his said majesty's Prize Courts as a lawful prize, or which shall have been condemned in any competent court, for the breach of the laws made for the prevention of the slave trade: and that, in the same manner, ships captured from the enemy by the ships of Colombia, and condemned under similar circumstances, will likewise be entitled to be considered as Colombian ships."
The undersigned, in virtue of the full powers with which he is invested, hereby accepts and adopts the said declaration, in the name and on the behalf of his government.
MANUEL JOSE HURTADO.
London, Nov. 7, 1825.
The Right Hon. George Canning, &c. &c. &c.
CONVENTION OF COMMERCE WITH THE HANSEATIC REPUBLICS.
The following Convention was laid on the table:—
CONVENTION OF COMMERCE between His Majesty and the free Hanseatic Republics of Lubeck, Bremen, and Hamburgh, signed at London, Sept. 29, 1825.
His Majesty the King of the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Ireland on the one part, and the Senate of the free Hanseatic city of Lubeck, the Senate of the free Hanseatic city of Bremen, and the Senate of the free Hanseatic city of Hamburgh (each State for itself separately) on the other part, being equally desirous of affording every facility and encouragemant to their subjects and citizens engaged in commercial intercourse with each other, and being of opinion that nothing will more contribute to the attainment of this desirable object than a reciprocal abrogation of all discriminating and countervailing duties levied
118
His Majesty the King of Great Britain and Ireland, the Right Hon. George Canning, a Member of His Majesty's Most Hon. Privy Council, a Member of Parliament, and His said Majesty's principal Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs; and the Right Hon. William Huskisson, a Member of His said Majesty's Most Hon. Privy Council, a Member of Parliament, President of the Committee of Privy Council for Affairs of Trade and Foreign Plantations, and Treasurer of His said Majesty's Navy:—
And the Senate of the free Hanseatic city of Lubeck, the Senate of the free Hanseatic city of Bremen, and the Senate of the Free Hanseatic city of Hamburgh, James Colquhoun, Esq. their Agent and Consul-General in Great Britain: —
Who, after having communicated to each other their respective full powers, found to be in due and proper form, have agreed upon and concluded the following articles:
Art. 1. From and after the date hereof, British vessels entering or departing from the ports of the Free Hanseatic Republics of Lubeck, Bremen, or Hamburgh, and Lubeck, Bremen or Hamburgh vessels entering or departing from the ports of the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Ireland, shall not be subject to any other or higher ship duties or charges than are or shall be levied on national vessels entering or departing from such ports respectively.
Art. 2.—AH goods, wares, and merchandise, whether the production of the territories of the free Hanseatic republics of Lubeck, Bremen, or Hamburgh, or of any other country, which may be legally imported from any of the ports of the said republics into the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Ireland in British vessels, shall, in like manner, be permitted to be imported in Lubeck, Bremen, or Hamburgh vessels: and all goods, wares, and merchandise, whether the production of any of the dominions of his Britannic majesty, or of any other country, which may be legally exported from the ports of the United Kingdom in British vessels, shall, in like manner, be permitted to be exported from the said ports in Lubeck, Bremen, or Hamburgh vessels. And all goods, wares, and merchandise, which may be legally imported into or exported from the ports of Lubeck, Bremen, or Hamburgh, in national vessels, shall, in like manner, be permitted to be imported into or exported from the ports of Lubeck, Bremen, or Hamburgh, in British vessels.
Art. 3.—All goods, wares, and merchandise, which can be legally imported into the ports of the United Kingdom directly from the ports of Lubeck, Bremen, or Hamburgh, or either of them, shall be admitted at the same rate of
119
Art. 4.—No priority or preference shall be given, directly or indirectly, by any or either of the contracting parties, nor by any company, corporation, or agent, acting on their behalf, or under their authority, in the purchase of any article, the growth, produce, or manufacture of their states, respectively, imported into the other, on account of or in reference to the character of the vessel in which such article was imported; it being the true intent and meaning of the high contracting parties, that no distinction or difference whatever shall be made in this respect.
Art. 5.—In consideration of the limited extent of the territories belonging to the republics of Lubeck, Bremen, and Hamburgh, and the intimate connexion of trade and navigation subsisting between these republics, it is hereby stipulated and agreed, that any vessels which have been built in any or either of the ports of the said republics, and which shall be owned exclusively by a citizen or citizens of any or either of them, and of which the master shall also be a citizen of either of them, and provided three fourths of the crew shall be subjects or citizens of any or either of the said republics, or of any or either of the states comprised in the Germanic Confederation, as described and enumerated in the 53rd and 56th articles of the general treaty of Congress, signed at Vienna on the 9th of June, 1815, such vessel, so built, owned, and navigated, shall, for all the purposes of this convention, be taken to be and considered as a vessel belonging to Lubeck, Bremen, or Hamburgh.
Art. 6.—Any vessel, together with her cargo, belonging to either of the three free Hanseatic republics of Lubeck, Bremen, or Hamburgh, and coming from either of the said ports to the United Kingdom, shall, for all the purposes of this convention, be deemed to come from the country to which such vessel belongs; and any British vessel and her cargo trading to the ports of Lubeck, Bremen, or Hamburgh, directly or in succession, shall, for the like purposes, be on the footing of a Hanseatic vessel and her cargo making the same voyage.
Art. 7.—It is further mutually agreed, that no higher or other duties shall be levied, in any or either of the states of the high contracting parties, upon any personal property of the subjects and citizens of each, respectively, on the removal of the same from the dominions or territory of such states (either upon inheritance
120
Art. 8.—The high contracting parties reserve to enter upon additional stipulations for the purpose of facilitating and extending, even beyond what is comprehended in the convention of this date, the commercial relations of their respective subjects and dominions, citizens, and territories, upon the principle either of reciprocal or equivalent advantages, as the case may be; and in the event of any article or articles being concluded between the said high contracting parties, for giving effect to such stipulations, it is hereby agreed that the article or articles which may hereafter be so concluded, shall be considered as forming part of the present convention.
Art. 9.—The present convention shall be in force for the term of ten years from the date hereof; and further, until the end of twelve months after the king of the united kingdom of Great Britain and Ireland, on the one part, or the governments of the free Hanseatic republics of Lubeck, Bremen, or Hamburgh, or either of them, on the other part, shall have given notice of their intention to terminate the same; each of the said high contracting parties reserving to itself the right of giving such notice to the other, at the end of the said term of ten years: and it is hereby agreed between them, that at the expiration of twelve months after such notice shall have been received by either of the parties from the other, this convention, and all the provisions thereof, shall altogether cease and determine, as far as regards the states giving and receiving such notice; it being always understood and agreed, that if one or more of the Hanseatic republics aforesaid shall, at the expiration of ten years from the date hereof, give or receive notice of the proposed termination of this convention, such convention shall nevertheless remain in full force and operation, as far as regards the remaining Hanseatic republics or republic which may not have given or received such notice.
Art. 10.—The present convention shall be ratified, and the ratifications shall be exchanged at London within one month from the date hereof, or sooner if possible.
In witness whereof the respective plenipotentiaries have signed the same, and have affixed thereto the seals of their arms. Done at London the 29th day of September, in the year of our Lord 1825.
(L.S.) GEORGE CANNING.
(L.S.) W. HUSKISSON.
(L.S.) JAMES COLQUHOUN.
CONVENTION OF COMMERCE WITH FRANCE.
The following Convention was laid on the table:—
CONVENTION OF COMMERCE between his Majesty and the Most Christian King, together
121
In the name of the Most Holy Trinity.—His Majesty the King of the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Ireland on the one part, and His Majesty the King of France and Navarre on the other part, being equally animated by the desire of facilitating the commercial intercourse between their respective subjects, and being persuaded that nothing can more contribute to the fulfilment of their mutual wishes in this respect, than to simplify and equalize the regulations which are now in force relative to the navigation of both kingdoms, by the reciprocal abrogation of all discriminating duties levied upon the vessels of either of the two nations in the ports of the other, whether under the head of duties of tonnage, harbours, lighthouse, pilotage, and others of the same description; or in the shape of increased duties upon goods on account of their being imported or exported in other than national vessels; have named as their plenipotentiaries to conclude a convention for this purpose—that is to say:—
His Majesty the King of the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Ireland, the Right Hon. George Canning, a Member of his said Majesty's Most Honourable Privy Council, a Member of Parliament, and his said Majesty's principal Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs, and the Right Hon. William Huskisson, a Member of His said Majesty's Most Honourable Privy Council, a Member of Parliament, President of the Committee of Privy Council for Affairs of Trade and Foreign Plantations, and Treasurer of His said Majesty's Navy:
And His Majesty the King of France and Navarre, the Prince Jules, Count de Polignac, a Peer of France, Marechal de-Camp of His Most Christian Majesty's Forces, Knight of the Royal and Military Order of St. Louis, Officer of the Royal Order of the Legion of Honour, Grand Cross of the Order of St. Maurice of Sardinia, Aide-de-Camp of His Most Christian Majesty, and his Ambassador at the Court of His Britannic Majesty:
Who, after having communicated to each other their respective full powers, found to be in due and proper form, have agreed upon and concluded the following articles:—
Art. 1.—From and after the fifth of April of the present year, French vessels, coming from or departing for the ports of France, or, if in ballast, coming from or departing for any place, shall not be subject, in the ports of the United Kingdom, either on entering into or departing from the same, to any higher duties of tonnage, harbour, light-house, pilotage, quarantine, or other similar or corresponding duties, of whatever nature, or under whatever denomination, than those to which British vessels, in respect of the same voyages, are or may be subject, on entering into or departing from such ports; and, reciprocally, from and after the same period, British vessels coming from
122
Art. 2.—Goods, wares, and merchandise, which can or may be legally imported into the ports of the United Kingdom from the ports of France, if so imported in French vessels, shall be subject to no higher duties than if imported in British vessels, and, reciprocally, goods, wares, and merchandise, which can or may be legally imported into the ports of France, from the ports of the United Kingdom, if so imported in British vessels, shall be subject to no higher duties than if imported in French vessels. The produce of Asia, Africa, and America, not being allowed to be imported from the said countries nor from any other, in French vessels, nor from France in French, British, or any other vessels, into the ports of the United Kingdom, for home consumption, but only for warehousing and re-exportation, his most Christian Majesty reserves to himself to direct that, in like manner, the produce of Asia, Africa, and America, shall not be imported from the said countries, nor from any other, in British vessels, nor from the United Kingdom in British, French, or any other vessels, into the ports of France, for the consumption of that kingdom, but only for warehousing and re-exportation.
With regard to the productions of the countries of Europe, it is understood between the high contracting parties, that such productions shall not be imported in British ships into France for the consumption of that kingdom, unless such ships shall have been laden therewith in some port of the United Kingdom; and that his Britannic Majesty may adopt, if he shall think fit, some corresponding restrictive measure, with regard to the productions of the countries of Europe imported into the ports of the United Kingdom in French vessels: the high contracting parties reserving, however, to themselves the power of making,
123
Art. 3.—All goods, wares, and merchandise, which can or may be legally exported from the ports of either of the two countries, shall, on their export, pay the same duties of export, action, whether the exportation of such goods, wares, and merchandise, be made in British or in French vessels, provided the said vessels proceed, respectively, direct from the ports of the one country to those of the other. And all the said goods, wares, and merchandise, so exported in British or French vessels, shall be reciprocally entitled to the same bounties, drawbacks, and other allowances of the same nature, which are granted by the regulations of each country respectively.
Art. 4.—It is mutually agreed between the high contracting parties, that in the intercourse of navigation between their two countries, the vessels of any third power shall, in no case, obtain more favourable conditions than those stipulated in the present convention in favour of British and French vessels.
Art. 5.—The fishing-boats of either of the two countries, which may be forced by stress of weather to seek shelter in the ports or on the coast of the other country, shall not be subject to any duties or port charges of any description whatsoever; provided the said boats, when so driven in by stress of weather, shall not discharge or receive on board any cargo, or portion of cargo, in the ports or on the parts of the coast where they shall have sought shelter.
Art. 6.—It is agreed that the provisions of the present convention between the high contracting parties shall be reciprocally extended and in force, in all the possessions subject to their respective dominion in Europe.
Art. 7.—The present convention shall be in force for the term of ten years, from the 5th of April of the present year; and further, until the end of twelve months after either of the high contracting parties shall have given notice to the other of its intention to terminate its operation; each of the high contracting parties reserving to itself the right of giving such notice to the other, at the end of the said term of ten years: and it is agreed between them, that, at the end of the twelve months' extension agreed to on both sides, this convention, and all the stipulations thereof, shall altogether cease and determine.
Art. 8.—The present convention shall be ratified, and the ratifications shall be exchanged in London, within the space of one month, or sooner if possible.
In witness whereof the respective plenipotentiaries have signed the same, and have affixed thereto the seals of their arms. Done at Loudon, the twenty-sixth day of January,
124
(L. S.) GEORGE CANNING.
(L. S.) WILLIAM HUSKISSON.
(L. S.) LE PRINCE DE POLIGNAC.
ADDITIONAL ARTICLES.
Art. 1.—From and after the first of October present year, French vessels shall be allowed to sail from any port whatever of the countries under the dominion of his most Christian Majesty, to all the colonies of the United Kingdom (except those possessed by the East India Company), and to import into the said colonies all kinds of merchandise (being productions the growth or manufacture of France, or of any country under the dominion of France), with the exception of such as are prohibited to be imported into the said colonies, or are permitted to be imported only from countries under the British dominion; and the said French vessels, as well as the merchandise imported in the same, shall not be subject, in the colonies of the United Kingdom, to other or higher duties than those to which British vessels may be subject, on importing the same merchandise from any foreign country, or which are imposed upon the merchandise itself.
The same facilities shall be granted, reciprocally, in the colonies of France, with regard to the importation, in British vessels, of all kinds of merchandise (being productions the growth and manufacture of the United Kingdom, or of any country under the British dominion), with the exception of such as are prohibited to be imported into the said colonies, or are permitted to be imported only from countries under the dominion of France. And whereas all goods, the produce of any foreign country, may now be imported into the colonies of the United Kingdom, in the ships of that country, with the exception of a limited list of specified articles, which can only be imported into the said colonies in British ships, his majesty the king of the United Kingdom reserves to himself the power of adding to the said list of excepted articles any other, the produce of the French dominions, the addition whereof may appear to his majesty to be necessary for placing the commerce and navigation to be permitted to the subjects of each of the high contracting parties with the colonies of the other, upon a footing of fair reciprocity.
Art. 2.—From and after the same period, French vessels shall be allowed to export from all the colonies of the United Kingdom (except those possessed by the East India Company) all kinds of merchandise, which are not prohibited to be exported from such colonies in vessels other than those of Great Britain; and the said vessels, as well as the merchandise exported in the same, shall not be subject to other or higher duties than those to which British vessels may be subject, on exporting the said merchandise, or which are imposed upon the merchandise itself; and they shall be entitled
125
The same facilities and privileges shall be granted, reciprocally, in all the colonies of France, for the exportation, in British vessels, of all kinds of merchandise, which are not prohibited to be exported from such colonies in vessels other than those of France.
These two additional articles shall have the same force and validity as if they were inserted, word for word, in the convention signed this day. They shall be ratified, and the ratification shall be exchanged at the same time.
In witness whereof the respective plenipotentiaries have signed the same, and have affixed thereto the seals of their arms. Done at London, the 26th of January, in the year of our Lord 1826.
(L. S.) GEORGE CANNING.
(L. S.) WILLIAM HUSKISSON.
(L. S.) LE PRINCE DE POLIGNAC.
HOUSE OF LORDS.
Tuesday, February 7, 1826.
Mr. COWPER—CLERK ASSISTANT.
The Earl of Liverpool
rose to call their lordships' attention to a motion founded on the letter of Mr. Cowper, which he had read yesterday. He had the satisfaction of feeling that the motion with which he should conclude was one which would meet with no opposition. Their lordships knew how that gentleman had discharged the important duties of his office for a period of forty-one years. There was no instance of an individual having discharged his duty with more diligence, assiduity, and integrity, than Mr. Cowper had done. The situation was important in various respects. It was necessary that the person who filled it should be well acquainted with the course and forms of judicial proceedings. The office was also important from its connexion with the forms and regulations of the House. This was a kind of knowledge which could only be acquired by experience; and it was no disgrace to any one who sat on the woolsack to say, that he might be assisted by Mr. Cowper. No one better knew than the individual of whom he was speaking, what was due to the dignity of the House and to the maintenance of its orders. Besides, his duty had been always discharged with so much propriety and urbanity, that during the long period of forty-one years, no one had ever had occasion to complain of his conduct. For his own part, he could speak to a period
126
l.
The resolution was agreed to.
HOUSE OF COMMONS.
Tuesday, February 7, 1826.
STAMPING OF SMALL COUNTRY
Mr. Calcraft
begged to ask a question of the gentlemen on the Treasury bench, upon a subject of considerable public interest. He understood that, of its own authority, government had taken upon itself to refuse the issue of any stamps for one and two pound country notes. If this was the fact, he thought it a great stretch of power.
Mr. Herries
said, it was perfectly true that the government had taken upon itself to refuse stamps for one and two pound country notes. He imagined, that the understanding was general; that, if necessary, a short bill might be brought in to provide for exigencies, until the plan of the chancellor of the Exchequer was regularly stated. As the matter, however, was to come on so soon as Fri-
127
Mr. Calcraft
said, it was the first time he had known government take upon itself such a responsibility, under such circumstances; and this, too, without even taking the opinion of the law officers of the Crown as to its legality. If the exigency was so pressing, a short bill ought to have been brought in; and the forms of the House might have been dispensed with. For himself, he thought the course most unjustifiable; and that it exposed the parties to actions of damages.
ELECTION LAWS IN IRELAND.
Mr. R. Martin
, in moving for leave to bring in his bill, called upon every gentleman who had complained of the state of the 40
s.
s.
128
Mr. Hutchinson
said, that any measure to alter the law of election must, at the eve of a general election, be looked at with peculiar jealousy.
Sir H. Parnell
said, that the plan of compelling people to show receipts for the discharge of rent, would be very objectionable.
Leave was given to bring in the bill.
HOUSE OF LORDS.
Thursday, February 9, 1826.
STATE OF IRELAND.
The Marquis of Lansdown
wished to ask of the noble lord opposite, how far the suggestions thrown out in the report of the committee of the House on the State of Ireland, imperfect as they were, had been acted upon. He called them imperfect, certainly not from any disposition to speak slightingly of the labours of the persons who composed the committee, of whom he himself was one, but because they were from the nature of the inquiry imperfect, and the committee themselves called them imperfect. However, a great many suggestions of importance had been thrown out on the subject of education and other matters connected with the state of Ireland, and he supposed the king's government had acted upon those suggestions as far as was found practicable. There were circumstances in the state of Ireland which rendered it very desirable that some of the suggestions should be carried into effect without delay. He was therefore very anxious to learn what had been done in pursuance of the suggestions in the report.
The Earl of Liverpool
professed himself ready to give the noble marquis every information in his power on the subject to which he had referred. In doing this, he would take the report of the committee for the basis of his explanation, and would go over the points suggested one by one. The first suggestion related to an alteration of the law of landlord and tenant. The subject had been referred to the law officers of the Crown, who had had it for some time under their consideration, and the result of their opinion had at last been
129
130
Lord Ellenborough
had heard with regret what the noble lord had said about grand-jury presentments. He was sorry that no measure was in preparation on that subject. There certainly were not too few, but too many roads in Ireland. These roads were so many jobs, and were managed in such a way that the grand juries had not the means of doing justice. He was convinced that most of the money raised for making roads in Ireland was thrown away, as far as regarded the interest of the public. Part of a road was made this year, and part another; but the benefit which the public was to derive from it was postponed till the whole was completed, which might be twenty years; and till that period he considered the money completely thrown away. In a part where a gentleman resided, the roads were kept in very good order; but it often happened that where the country was populous, they were in very bad condition. With regard to the corporations, he believed the administration of justice was sometimes corrupt, and he thought that inquiry ought to be made into the mode of admitting persons into their freedom. He did not know how far the attention of government had been directed to the question of relief to the poor. For his own part, his opinion was very strong against any thing being done in that way. With regard to the question of education, it was his firm conviction, that until the Catholics gained their rights, they would never agree to any system of education which had been suggested. The public mind was at present greatly exasperated in consequence of the rejection of the measure of last session, and therefore any
131
Lord Clifden
believed, that the government would be glad to put an end to the grand-jury presentment system, if they could; but that was not easily accomplished. He agreed with the noble lord in what he had said about the roads, the management of which was often an enormous and shameful job.
The Earl of Liverpool
assured the noble lord, that any suggestion respecting the evils of grand-jury presentments should not be lost. The subject was under consideration. With regard to the administration of justice in corporate towns, whatever evils there might be to complain of, they could not be with propriety corrected by any general laws, because, the rights of corporations were secured by charter. He had no objection to a law to meet particular cases, but a general law would affect those who had discharged their duty properly, as well as those who bad neglected it. Besides, it was to be recollected, that when individuals found themselves aggrieved, they had their remedy in a court of law. He should be extremely anxious to see something done for the poor, if it were practicable. At the same time he was not prepared to say that any thing was practicable.
Lord Ellenborough
said, he should not be satisfied with any alteration on the subject of grand-jury presentments respecting roads, unless it was provided that no road should be undertaken except upon the report of a sworn surveyor. He also thought that no road should be undertaken without the sanction of government.
The Earl of Darnley
said, that no agreement on the subject of education could be expected in Ireland, so long as the Catholics were deprived of their rights. The discontent produced by that denial of justice prevented every plan of reform from succeeding. Let the anxiety of the noble earl opposite to benefit that country be as strong as he asserted it to be, still, so long as the principles he avowed last session were acted upon, it was impossible there could be tranquillity in Ireland. He might as well attempt to erect a perfect building on an insecure foundation. With such an obstacle to improvement, all the efforts of the noble lord must fail. On the subject of education, an opportunity had occurred, before
132
STATE OF THE CURRENCY.
The Marquis of Lansdown
rose to call the attention of their lordships to one of the most important questions which could be brought under their consideration. He intended to submit to them a series of motions, the object of which would be to reach the source of that embarrassment, which had prevailed, and still prevailed in commercial affairs. In doing this he was desirous of offering a few observations for the purpose of expressing the opinion which he entertained on the subject. He was the more desirous of submitting these few observations to their lordships, because he entertained an apprehension, that in the opinions he had formed on the subject, he had the misfortune to differ, respecting the causes of the present crisis, from some persons in that House, and also out of it, for whose opinions he entertained the highest respect. Before he proceeded further, he begged it might not be understood, that he intended to suggest, or that he expected, through any of the documents for which he should move, to reach any thing like a remedy for the existing evil. His opinion, founded upon what he conceived to be the nature of the evil, was, that it must be allowed to work its own cure. The state of the currency had turned the exchanges against the country, and gold disappeared. There was an accumulation of stock, and the consequence was, that any man who purchased at a maximum, and sold at a minimum was ruined or injured. The embarrassment would continue until, going through the whole community, it should be corrected by that increased demand which would be produced by the reduction of prices. Then would return, not that artificial prosperity, which had been witnessed, but that real prosperity which the country was capable of attaining, under its present state of taxation. He believed it was the opinion of the king's ministers themselves, that no adequate remedy could be applied to the evil. Concurring in this opinion, he thought that no time should
133
134
135
136
137
l.,
l.,
l.
l.
138
139
140
l.
The Earl of Liverpool
said, he did not feel it necessary to trouble their lordships with more than a few words on the present occasion; first, because it would be his
141
142
The Earl of Lauderdale
denied that the issues of small notes had the effect of driving the metallic currency out of the country. The present distress, in his opinion, was not occasioned by the currency so much as by the spirit of extravagant speculation which lately prevailed throughout the country. The withdrawing of nineteen millions, which was the amount supposed to be withdrawn from the circulation of the country, was the true cause of the calamity. That these speculations had been indulged in was no fault of his. He had done all that lay in his power to warn the public from entering into these rash and hazardous enterprises; as had also the noble and learned lord, whom he regretted not to see now on the wool-sack. As to the Scotch banks, they were certainly found by experience to be established on principles of perfect security; but he was apprehensive, if the intelligent persons who introduced the system of Scotch banking were brought up to the bar of this House and examined, that they would admit that the Scotch system was, in many respects, incompatible with the commercial transactions of this country, and unfit to be introduced into England.
The Earl of Carnarvon
said, he approved highly of the plan of extending the number of partners in banking establishments, and agreed also in the propriety of each of the partners of such establishments being made liable, in the whole amount of his property, for the concerns of the Bank. This would create a class of merchant bankers who would have an interest in attending to the affairs of the Bank, and would operate as a check against over-issues. Accompanied with these measures, he would be glad to see the country return to silver as the stand-
143
144
145
HOUSE OF COMMONS.
Thursday, February 9, 1826.
COUNTRY BANKS THAT HAVE BECOME BANKRUPTS.
Mr. Hume
moved for a return, "of the number of Country Banks issuing notes that have become bankrupts since January 1816, up to the present time; stating the place where the banks were established, the number of partners in each bank, the amount of debts proved against each, and the amount per cent of dividends paid or declared upon each, as far as the same can be complied with." The House would then have before it, a statement of the extent to which the public banking had suffered by the country system.
Mr. Grenfell
wished the account to extend to Scotland.
146
Mr. Hume
said, he had no objection.
Mr. Maberly
thought the account objectionable, as an intrusion upon the affairs of individuals. If the principle wag once established, that any member might move for an inquiry into the private concerns of parties, it was difficult to see where the operation of that principle might stop. How could that House entertain cognizance of the debts which had been proved. He hoped the Chancellor of the Exchequer would not accede to such an improper motion.
Mr. Grenfell
wished Scotland to be included, because he was persuaded that a return to the motion, as regarded Scotland, would be nil.
Mr. John Smith
said, that when an intrusion upon the private affairs of individuals was spoken of, it ought to be recollected of the country bankers, that they had in fact been dealing in that which was the money of the country. Theirs was quite a different case from that of merchants or ordinary traders; and he was therefore disposed to support the motion. He had not until that morning read the correspondence between the Treasury and the Bank; but, in reading it he had been much struck with a paragraph which stated, that the country banks, all of them, without exception, had for some time fostered, supported, and encouraged, a rash spirit of speculation. Now, in the name and on behalf of very many country bankers who claim to be considered men of honour, prudence, and integrity, he called on the chancellor of the Exchequer, to state the grounds upon which he had made that sweeping accusation. At the same time, it would, perhaps, be convenient to the right hon. gentleman to prove to parliament the sound policy of directing public odium against the country banks at this particular crisis.
The Chancellor of the Exchequer
saw no objection whatever to the motion. He thought it quite reasonable that the House should be in possession of any facts relative to the number of country banks which had failed. Such a return could do no mischief to parties who might have failed and were in business again. With regard to the terms in which the country bankers were spoken of in the correspondence between the government and the bank, he could have no objection to give every explanation to those who might fancy themselves injured thereby. Most certainly, it never had been the in-
147
Mr. Calcraft
was happy to hear the explanation given by the right hon. gentleman; but, without that explanation, he certainly should not have understood the expressions, "rash speculations, aided, fostered, and abetted, by the country banks," as exactly placing the country bankers upon that advantageous ground which it seemed they really occupied in the right hon. gentleman's opinion. For himself, however, he denied the fact that it was by the issues of the country banks that the rash spirit of speculation, as it was called, which had existed in the country, and the enterprises to which that spirit had led, had been supported. Seventeen millions of paper could not have been issued by any country banks for purposes of speculation, and that speculation principally carried on in London. For, as fast as a country note made its appearance in London, it was instantly converted into a bank of England note, or into gold, or the banker was discredited. Those speculations, which, joined to the conduct of government, had done so much to disorder the country, never could have been carried on by country bank notes. To the motion he saw no objection. As far, however, as disclosure went, it would do the country bankers no harm, but good. It was well for ministers to talk of country paper! The right hon. gentleman had more
148
Sir J. Wrottesley
said, that during the last year, the country bankers had been almost the only class of persons who had not speculated. They had been rather the victims of the speculations of others, than speculators themselves.
Mr. Hudson Gurney
thought, that though it would be perfectly easy to obtain a return of the number of failures of country bankers, it would be extremely difficult to learn the amount of the dividend they had respectively paid. The object of the hon. gentleman appeared to be, to show the advantages of the Scotch system of banking, as compared with that obtaining in England; both with regard to its general security, and as not being obnoxious to the objections of encouraging undue adventure. But, if such were the hon. gentleman's view, Mr. Gurney said, he must entirely differ with him. There was nothing he should more deprecate than the introduction of the Scotch system into this country, as he was convinced, that its direct tendency would be to the increase of the number of bankruptcies, though not, perhaps, leading to the breakage of so many banks. The Scotch system was one which went, much more than that of England, towards facilitating speculations of every kind; but, it was the customer there who broke, and the banker who swept his securities.
149
150
Mr. Robertson
said, that the system upon which the Scotch banks were conducted, was that of creating an artificial capital, which was lent out in aid of the manufactures and trade of the country. That this system had been productive of great advantages, was proved by this, that it had raised Scotland from being the poorest country in Europe, to the state in which it at present was. The banking system in England was upon a different footing, it had the effect of keeping up a system of trading and manufacture which ministers were using every effort in their power to oppose. When they found that the system now pursued by ministers actually sent twenty four millions a year out of the country without any return, it would be clearly seen that nothing but our banking system could have prevented the present distresses of the country from having come upon her long before. And if ministers persevered in their intended plan of withdrawing the one and two pound country bank notes from circulation, they would aggravate those distresses ten fold. It was to him astonishing that the House should continue to look with silence upon this conduct on the part of his majesty's government; first causing of a great evil, then suddenly changing their measures, and thereby aggravating the distress which their first error had caused. He begged of the House to recollect this argument with respect to our commercial system, that our foreign commerce, including shipping and all, did not amount to more than forty millions a-year, while our manufactures, agriculture, and internal trade and commerce, amounted to one hundred and thirty millions per annum. Such being the case, it became
151
Mr. Tierney
wished to ask a question of the chancellor of the Exchequer, in order to solve a doubt suggested by the correspondence between the Bank and government, concerning branch banks. In the answer of the Treasury committee of the Bank to the communication from ministers, they said, "Finding also, that the proposal by the Bank of establishing branch banks is deemed by his majesty's ministers inadequate to the wants of the country, &c." What he wished to ask was, when the Bank made that proposal to establish branch banks, what was the nature of that proposition, and why it was not before the House?
The Chancellor of the Exchequer
said, that no proposition had, in fact, been made in the written communications of the Bank to establish branches of its own institution. Something of that kind might have passed in the course of the discussions, but certainly no direct proposition to establish branch banks of their own had been advanced in writing by the Bank.
Mr. Tierney
said, that the Bank had said expressly, that the proposal which had been made by them was not one which ministers could adopt, because they considered it inadequate. Certainly, if such a proposition had been made by the Bank, it ought to be known to the House.
The Chancellor of the Exchequer
repeated his denial of any proposition having been made in writing by the Bank to establish branch banks; though, if they had made such a proposition, ministers would have deemed it inadequate to the prevention of a crisis like that through which the country had just passed.
Mr. Tierney.
—Then, in point of fact, the Bank did never make any such proposal ["No," across the table]. Then it ought not to have appeared in a written communication of their own that they did.
Mr. Pearse
said, that the subject might hate been touched upon verbally and iu-
152
Mr. Hume
thought, that the trading in money ought not to be allowed to individuals, it being a branch of the prerogative of the sovereign. As to bringing before the public, individuals who had been unfortunate, there could be no objection on that ground, as those individuals had already appeared in the Gazette. His object was merely to lay before the House certain facts. That the public had suffered much from the recent failures, by the issuers of paper, was beyond doubt; and those losses ought not to rest upon the poorer classes of the community. He was anxious that the House should see the amount of loss which had been sustained from actual failures.
The Chancellor of the Exchequer
said, he was anxious to explain an observation of his which had been misunderstood by the hon. member for Wareham. That hon. member seemed to be of opinion, that he had thrown the whole blame of the excess of issues on the country banks. He wondered how the hon. member could have so misunderstood him. What he did say, was, that it was not possible to charge the whole evil, or even its origin, on the country banks, or upon any persons issuing paper. The speculations which had brought on the present crisis were of a character necessarily incident to all commercial countries, where there existed a great share of capital and enterprise. In all such cases, individuals would be found ready to take advantage of every circumstance favourable to their own interests. He had further said, that the speculations of 1819, whatever their immediate effect, had been followed by increased confidence and speculation.
Mr. Calcrqft
said, he was most ready to admit the right hon. gentleman's explanation. He felt it at the same time necessary to say, that the papers on the table went far to strengthen the impression he at first entertained of what had fallen from the right hon. gentleman.
The motion was then agreed to.
SILK TRADE.
Sir T. Lethbridge
presented a petition from certain Silk Throwsters of Somerset, against the importation of foreign Silks.
153
Mr. Robertson
called the attention of the House to one or two facts connected with this subject. It was said, that 30 per cent was a protecting duty for our silks; but he knew that wrought silks could be introduced, both from India and from France, at such a rate as to compete with our manufacturers when putting the raw material into the loom. Would the House, then, allow ministers to persevere in a system which would destroy a trade that the country had been nursing for ages? To compete with the French was impossible. They had a particular kind of silk which they never allowed to go forth but in a manufactured state. Let that silk be brought into our market, and it would be bought up at whatever price by our fashionables. These silks, once introduced, would drive our produce out of the market. Was the English manufacturer, with a load of debt hanging like a millstone round his neck, to be compelled to a competition with the French manufacturer, whose debt sat so lightly upon him that it was not felt as a burthen? Were they to tolerate such a proceeding? Let them call upon ministers to put this part of their new measures at rest. How else were they to get out of the difficulties and distresses under which the country laboured, unless by giving every stimulus to industry, which was at present at a stand. The labouring classes were without employment, and the means of procuring food or raiment; and yet ministers persisted in subjecting the manufacturers to the competition of cheaper markets.
Mr. Baring
presented a petition from Taunton, against the introduction of French silks, which, he said, deserved the serious consideration of the House. The subject, he hoped, would undergo discussion at an early period, seeing that hundreds of thousands of people anticipated ruin and starvation from the importation of foreign silks. It was not now the time for him to go into that discussion; though it would be very desirable if the president of the Board of Trade could contrive to be in his place when petitions of this nature were sure to come on. He hoped to see the question set at rest. The conviction on his own mind was settled long ago. What he wished to see was, whether or no the House would support ministers in their desperate resolution. Great anxiety existed among the silk manufacturers, and
154
s.
d.
s.
d.,
s.,
s.
s.
s.
d.
155
Mr. Huskisson
wished to excuse himself for not being present sooner. His only apology was, that he had not been absent for his own convenience, but in discharge of the duties of his office, and from which he had repaired to the House. He knew that this apology was inadequate to the occasion; but it was the best he had to offer. As to the order of the Treasury to lower the duty on thrown silk, it was a mistake to state that it was done without authority from parliament. The board of trade having satisfied themselves, that 5
s.
s.
d.
Mr. Davenport
implored ministers to take the subject of the silk trade again into consideration. He gave them credit for their intentions; but the consequences of their measures were just such as, two years ago, he had predicted. Open the ports of England, he had said, to foreign silk, and the home manufacturer must be ruined. In his neighbourhood, thousands
156
Sir T. Lethbridge
said, that the hon. member for Taunton had mistaken his expressions, both as to time and meaning. It was not on a petition which he had presented, but in the course of the observations which were made on the report of the Address that he had stated that which he believed to be perfectly correct; namely, that the great body of the manufacturers took a more chaste view of the corn question than before. He had never taken upon him to say, that the manufacturers would have no complaints about the price of corn, however high; but only that, in the present state of the price of provisions, they did not complain of the Corn laws, but of the destruction of their trade. And, indeed, in their present condition, it would not be surprising if they were to complain of the price of provisions, however low. Yet, to be candid, he could not but look upon this alteration of the silk trade as an outwork to a similar alteration in the Corn laws, which, if not directly touched, was so by a side-wind, tending at no distant period to an open trade in corn. From the distress resulting to the manufacturers from this first attempt, the House might be called upon to consider of a similar alteration in the corn trade. He thought that, if the intentions of government bore that way, the more manly course would have been to begin with the corn trade. For his own part, he must oppose any proposition like that of a free trade of corn. As long as the national debt remained, no such thing could be listened to. The country could not support that competition and its present burthens together. He would be as glad as any to see low prices, but high prices there must be. The prices must be kept up by an import duty, amounting to an absolute prohibition, so long as the interest of the national debt was to be paid.
Mr. Ellice
said, that the hon. baronet was certainly right in considering this measure as the outwork of an attack on the Corn laws. If the principle of freedom was to be applied to other trades, it ought to be applied to the trade in corn.
157
Mr. Baring
said, he had never encouraged this particular measure respecting silk: on the contrary, he was almost the only person who had raised his voice against it from the outset. Still it was rather hard, he must admit, to throw the whole responsibility of the bill upon ministers, since it had passed through the House with almost unanimous approbation. He was old enough to know, that those measures were not always the best and wisest which received the readiest acquiescence of that House.
Mr. Huskisson
said, he never intended to intimate that his lion, friend had supported this particular measure. All he meant to state was, that the opening of the colonial trade, and the removal of the duty on the raw material, had his hon. friend's approbation.
Ordered to lie on the table.
CORN LAWS.
Mr. Baring
said, he understood, that a gentleman had lately returned from the Continent, who had been abroad during the whole of last year, under instructions from his majesty's government to collect information on the state of the foreign corn trade. He was anxious to know if that gentleman had made any report upon the subject, and if so, whether and when it would be presented.
Mr. Huskisson
had no difficulty in stating, that the individual alluded to had
158
BANK OF ENGLAND BALANCES, &c."
Mr. Grenfell
said, that although the accounts for which he was about to move were generally granted without opposition, he hoped, under the particular circumstances of the times, that he should be allowed a brief explanation of his views as connected with them. The accounts referred first to the balances lodged by the government, for the public, in the Bank; and next, to the charges for the management of the public debt, and other services performed by the Bank for the public. It was, perhaps, in the recollection of those who now heard him, that when he had first called the attention of parliament to the affairs of the Bank, the production of these accounts was resisted, not only by that corporation, but by the then chancellor of the Exchequer. After, however, a two or three years perseverance in calling for them, the resistance gave way, and on every successive year that he had since called for them, they were yielded without a struggle. It was thought by many, that the publicity which had been given to the transactions between the government and the Bank had been productive of public good. And, when he considered the approaching period of the expiration of the charter—a charter which he hoped and trusted would expire—he thought that, as the question between the Bank and the public was about to terminate, he should be allowed to say a few words for perhaps the last time, on the state of their affairs. The first class of accounts which he now called for related to the deposits of public money lodged in the Bank for current use, in the same manner as any gentleman kept his
159
l.
l.
l.
l.
l.
l.,
160
l.
Mr. Pearse
said, he had no objection, on the part of the Bank, to the production of these accounts; but he would not, on the present occasion, go into the merits of the public bargain with the Bank, or the terms which ought to accompany the contingent respecting their charter. He hoped that important subject would in due time be gravely considered; not as it regarded the Bank itself, but as it would best serve the government and the country. They would at least come to the discussion with the full knowledge of the eminent services performed by the Bank for the public, when that corporation had stood in the gap, and effected what, upon emergencies, legislative interposition would have failed to accomplish. What the consequences to the public would be, if there were not such an establishment in existence in its chartered form, he would leave others to anticipate. As to the allowances to the Bank, it would be time enough to discuss their amount when the charter was under consideration; but really when the hon. gentleman thought proper to estimate the services performed by the Bank, he should not keep back the immense risks and losses which they incurred, in transacting the public business. On a late occasion they had lost by the forgeries of a single person above 250,000
l.,
161
Mr. Humehoped
, that the time had come when all those exclusive charters were to be abolished, by which the community at large always suffered for the gain of a few. Full of faults as was the paper lately sent by the government to the Bank, he entirely concurred in that passage of it which put an end to the hope of a renewal of the Bank charter. As the word "lottery" was introduced in the accounts called for, he was anxious to know how it had happened that the pledge given by the government two or three years ago for the extinction of lotteries in that year had not been fulfilled? It seemed to him that these lotteries were to be carried on perpetually; two of them were still advertised. How had this happened?
The Chancellor of the Exchequer
replied, that on the subject of lotteries it was true, and he ought to take blame to himself that it was so, that when he had brought in his former bill, an adequate provision was not made for their speedier extinction. When he had moved the resolution in the year 1823, upon which the lottery bill was founded, he was not sufficiently aware of the mode in which these lotteries were practically conducted. It was never the custom, he had since ascertained, that they should be drawn in the same year, for the service of which they had been voted. The consequence was, that the lottery for one year spread over one or more future years, and hence arose the apparent inconsistency between the pledge he had given and the fact which the hon. member had stated, of the prolongation of these lotteries. There were now, however, only two of them remaining to be drawn, and these must be concluded within the present year, and he pledged himself that they should be the last.
Mr. Robertson
condemned in the strongest terms the policy of government, in breaking down the old commercial system of the country, to make way for theoretical notions of a mischievous tendency. He alluded chiefly to the condition into which the silk trade had been thrown, and the manner in which government, whilst sweeping away other charters, were ready to set up a charter against that class of traders who deserved their encouragement.
162
The motion was agreed to.
Mr. Ellice
gave notice that on Thursday next, he would move for an account of all the issues of gold coin at the Bank from July 1823 to the 1st of February 1826. In 1823, he believed the 1
l.
l.
The Chancellor of the Exchequer
, while he had no objection to the production of these returns, because, under existing circumstances, he thought a case was made out to call for them, begged to enter his protest against such motions being considered as mere matters of course. Neither the Bank nor the government opposed the production of these returns; protesting, however, against their consent being taken as a matter of course.
Mr. Pearse
thanked the right hon. gentleman for the manner in which lie had delivered the consent of the Bank; for certainly this information ought not always to be given as a matter of right. Indeed so impressed were the Bank proprietors of the injury to the public interests which might follow these constant disclosures of the state of the Bank affairs, that they had by large majorities refused to grant them in general courts. The directors were ready to give every necessary information; though he renewed their protest against its being called for as a matter of course.
Mr. Monck
condemned this mystery on the part of the Bank of England, and preferred publicity as by far the better course, both for the Bank and the country. They had the example of the Bank of France in favour of the public inspection of such accounts, and it ought to encourage similar publicity in this country.
163
Mr. Calcraft
said, that the Bank proprietors might refuse to call for the accounts, from a confidence in their directors, but it did not follow that parliament should participate in the same confidence. He did not mean to say whether parliament confided, or did not, in that body, for he would decide on each case as it arose. With reference to the stoppage of the stamping of country bank notes, it was, on the part of ministers, a glaring violation of the existing law, and ought not to have been done without notice. Did the government mean to continue the instructions already sent to the board, to prevent the further stamping. If they did, he would tell the right hon. gentleman that the proceeding would cast such a discredit on the country bank notes, as to throw the local circulation in every corner of the kingdom into the greatest confusion. The effect would necessarily be, that the panic, which was said to be subsiding, must become perpetuated. There was no analogy between the mode of effecting this matter, and the regulating the duty on thrown silk; for, in the latter, the thing was cautiously done, and proper security was received from the parties. But was any security here taken for the loss of revenue which the country would suffer from stopping the stamping of country bank notes
The Chancellor of the Exchequer
said, that government had been induced to send that order to the Stamp-office, that advantage might not be taken by the country bankers to get stamped an unusual quantity of notes; by which means the effect of the proposed measure would be forestalled. He did not intend to deny, that the issuing such an order might require an act of indemnity from parliament, but he trusted, when the necessity of the case was taken into consideration, that the House would not impute such a proceeding to any improper motive.
Mr. Calcraft
did not mean to say, that ministers were actuated by improper motives; but he believed that in this, as in many other instances, they had committed a great error in judgment, and fallen into heavy mistakes. Why not have mentioned their intention? The parties would then have, known their real situation? The ministers might rely upon it, that this harsh and abrupt measure would deteriorate the local currency, and keep alive the panic which they thought had subsided.
164
Mr. Ellice
approved of the course adopted by government. If they had not stopped the stamping of country notes, the consequence would have been, that the country banks might have supplied themselves for a year to come, by which means the laudable intention of government would have been defeated. He granted that such a proceeding was illegal; but, in a case of so much importance, the duty of government was, to weigh what would be of the least inconvenience to the public; and, in his opinion, they had chosen the right course.
Mr. Calcraft
was surprised at the lightness with which his hon. friend appeared to treat the subject. He supposed his hon. friend was not aware that every country bank had taken out and paid for a license, which entitled them to get notes stamped up to next October, under the sanction of an act of parliament. He was glad to see the right hon. gentleman treat the subject more seriously.
Mr. Ellice
disclaimed having recommended the measure; but did not apprehend the same consequences from it as his hon. friend.
Mr. Gordon
beheld the measure with great alarm. From the information which he had received from the country, he could add his testimony to what had been stated by his hon. friend, of the effect which it was likely to have in deteriorating the country bank notes. He regretted that government had taken, upon its own authority, to effect this object in so strong and unconstitutional a manner, without the previous interposition of parliament. He had heard of notes being sent up to be stamped, and which were expected back to meet previously formed engagements. Let the House contemplate the inconvenience which must follow from such a state of things. He hoped ministers would re-consider the matter before it was too late, or else the agricultural distress of 1821 and 1822 would return upon the country with redoubled force.
Mr. Robertson
was no advocate for the banking system, but must condemn the measures which were in contemplation. After encouraging extensive circulation, it ill became ministers so abruptly to suspend it.
Mr. Monck
thought the measure most salutary. In proposing it, government had not led, but followed, the public mind, which was unequivocally in favour of it. The injury done to the private bankers
165
The motion was then agreed to.
HOUSE OF COMMONS.
Friday, February 10, 1826.
BANK CHARTER, AND PROMISSORY
On the order of the day for going into a committee on the above acts,
Lord Folkestone,
before the Speaker left the chair, wished to have an opportunity of expressing what he felt as to the course now pursued. The question to be considered was one of great importance, upon which the House ought to have had some information beforehand. In his opinion, the right hon. gentleman had stolen rather an unfair march upon them. On the first day of the session he had given notice of a motion upon the subject generally, which was to come on at an early day. On a subsequent day, the right hon. gentleman had explained more fully that his motion would go to a consideration of the Bank charter acts in a committee of the whole House. On Monday last the right hon. gentleman came down, and moved that the acts respecting the Bank charter and promissory notes should be entered as read. They now passed at once to the order of the day for going into the committee. The objection which he had might appear technical only, but it comprised something very essential to the order of their proceedings. The House might be very willing and very right in agreeing to go into the committee; but, as the case stood, they had been led into an admission, which perhaps they might not have made upon a more regular discussion. He, for one, was not at all prepared for the discussion of the measures to be proposed in the committee. He was without that degree of information which was necessary. If, indeed, the right hon. mover would, on the question that the Speaker do leave the chair, detail his plan, and show clearly the nature of what he intend-
166
The Chancellor of the Exchequer
said, that the term used by the noble lord, that he had stolen a march on the House, could not be justly applied to him. That which he was now doing was the usual practice of the House. With regard to the notice of the motion, he had found that it was incorrectly expressed. The consequence was, that his intentions had been much misunderstood. He had moved that the House should resolve itself into a committee this day, to take into consideration the Bank Charter, and Promissory Notes Acts. He apprehended, supposing that some measures were by general admission necessary, that the only proper course was a discussion of the whole subject in a committee. Not the smallest idea was conveyed to his mind, that any gentleman would adopt a step which must thwart altogether, if persevered in, any measure of any description, however urgent the necessity for proceeding. Now that, and nothing less, would be the effect of the noble lord's objection. There would, in fact, under these circumstances, be no consideration of the Bank-charter acts. The objection would, in limine, stop the discussion, and frustrate the measures which he had to propose on the part of government. The course which he had taken was the usual course, and that which was the most convenient. He should, in all probability, be called upon to answer questions and explain matters of doubt, not once or
167
Mr. Baring
complained of the inexpediency of the mode adopted. If the statement which they so anxiously expected would meet the difficulties of the country according to the estimate formed of those difficulties by ministers, undoubtedly the right hon. gentleman was going to propose something upon a subject of the deepest importance, concerning which the House was called upon to deliberate with a total insufficiency of information. The course taken was only suitable to subjects of a common and obvious kind. If they were about to consult on a subject of the most insignificant nature, they could not proceed with greater levity: whereas this was a subject which should have been preceded by every possible means of intelligence. Many papers and documents ought to have been produced, Rome of which had been actually moved for no doubt with a view to their usefulness on this occasion. But, at the same time, so urgent was the whole subject, so sensitive was the whole country, so anxiously did they wish to know what the government were gong to propose, that he could wish his noble friend to wave his objection. If they found themselves not to be in a condition to go on with the discussion they might report progress and ask leave to sit again.
Lord Folkestone
said, his only wish was, that the House might know upon what they were to deliberate, before pledging themselves to deliberation. They ought to have the subject adequately explained; and his view was, that if not done before, at any rate it ought to have been done while the Speaker was in the chair. The effect of the present motion was, to pledge the House to an alteration of the Bank acts, without knowing that there was any necessity for alteration. However, as the feeling of the House was against the mode of proceeding which he proposed, he would not persevere in it.
Mr. Calcraft
said, the noble lord was right in his objection to the course taken; but it would not have the effect of precluding objections to the plan. For one, he protested now against any alteration of the
168
The Speaker having left the chair,
The Chancellor of the Exchequer
then rose. If, he said, he did not feel that he was acting in the discharge of a great public trust, however unworthily or unfortunately imposed on him, he should be appalled at the magnitude and importance, if not at the difficulty, of the subject on which he had now to address the House. He was well aware that much criticism would be applied, that many objections would be brought against him, both on the principle and the details of the measure which it would be his business to submit. He was well aware, that, notwithstanding the impression on his own mind was clear as to the real causes, and the proper remedy for the evils which had lately visited the country, he was likely to meet with no light hostility to his propositions. He perfectly understood the feelings which actuated the minds of some individuals on the agitation of topics of this nature; and to any observations which might flow from him in the course of this discussion, he was prepared to meet no small degree of misunderstanding, as to the principles and grounds on which he proposed to rest the projected measures. One source of reliance at least he found in himself: he came to this deliberation with a good conscience; and he hoped he might venture to ask the House for their gravest attention. He invoked their patience more particularly, because he felt a fear within himself, that he could not contrive to compress within those limits which the House usually expected its members to observe, the various parts of so intricate and interesting a subject. He entreated the indulgence of the House, therefore, to the extent of a patient hearing; not deprecating any hostile observations, in whatever spirit pronounced; but only asserting his claim to that forbearance and attention which the subject demanded, and without the exercise of which, it would be utterly impossible for him to discharge the duty which he owed to the government, to the House, and to the country.
169
170
171
172
173
174
175
s.
176
l.
177
178
179
l.
l.
l.
180
l.
l.
l.
l.
l.
l.
181
l.
l.
l.
l.
l.
l.
l.
l.
l.
l.
l.
182
l.
l.
l.
l.
l.
183
184
l.
l.
l.
l.
l.
l.
185
186
l.
l.
187
l.
188
189
190
191
192
193
l.
Mr. Baring
rose to address the committee. He said he wished to preface the observations which it would be his duty to make, by requesting of the right hon. gentleman to state whether the resolution which he had just read was the only one which he meant to submit to the House.
The Chancellor of the Exchequer
replied, that he had no other resolution to propose on that specific part of the question.
Mr. Baring
said, that if that was the case, the resolution before the committee did nothing at all. It went only to say, that all the small notes now in circulation should continue to circulate till the year 1829, and no longer; but it made no provision for any new notes which might be issued in the interim. There was no objection, he supposed, that the small notes now in existence should continue to circulate till 1829; but not a word was said about any new notes that might be issued between this and that period. This, he thought, was a point on which the right hon. gentleman ought not to have omitted to touch. The right hon. gentleman had deprecated any observations as to the time when this matter was introduced by government. He could not see why this should be so. His majesty's ministers, instead of excusing themselves for the introduction of this measure now, were rather to be
194
The Chancellor of the Exchequer
begged to assure the hon. gentleman, that he did not allude to any opposition as that of party, but he deprecated such opposition as that which he had been led to expect from the remarks of one or two hon. members on a former evening.
Mr. Baring
observed, that opposition as a party, was at present that which the right hon. gentleman had no cause to apprehend. If there was any one thing on which the country might congratulate itself in the present period of difficulty, it was that of the absence of all party feeling from discussions of public affairs. The present practice was very different from what they had seen on former occasions—on the treaty with France, the Irish question, and other subjects, where a strong opposition was made from his side of the House to the measures of government; but at no period of modern times was there less of party feeling evinced in the discussion of matters proposed by ministers; and he was certain that, if the right hon. gentleman was not at present convinced of that fact, he would be so before the conclusion of the present session. There might be some gentlemen in the House who were disposed to legislate for our present difficulties on the pure principles of political economy; some whose remedies would have reference to the protection of the agricultural interests; some who would look chiefly to the commercial, and others to the banking, interests, but he did not believe that there were any who would offer a remedy for the evils under which we suffered, with a view to party purposes. The country was at present in too enlightened a state to allow its distresses to be made a handle for party purposes. At the same time, it must be admitted, that if any party were disposed to make a stand as a party against ministers, they never had a better opportunity than the present moment offered. The right hon. gentleman and his colleagues had, by their recent proceedings, and particularly by their correspondence with the Bank, laid themselves open to the most just censure, as being ignorant, at this interesting crisis, of the real situation of the country. What man,
195
196
Mr. Canning
observed, that the hon. member was mistaken in applying the remark to him.
197
Mr. Baring
said, he had not intended I to apply it to the right hon. Secretary, whose sound mind would lead him to take a more clear view of the question. But, he had mentioned the fact, that such an amendment had been proposed at the time, as an illustration of his argument, that the perfect theorist made for his object at once, and without reference to the particular circumstances by which he was surrounded. Now, what he wished to impress on the House was, that they must approach the end in view according to the difficulties which opposed themselves; and the first step necessary to be taken was, to acertain what was the nature and the cause of those difficulties. As to the latter, he agreed generally with the right hon. gentleman, except that he had rather studiously kept out of view the share which the government had in their production. If he were asked his opinion on the subject, he would say, that the Bank of England—(and when he spoke of the Bank, he begged to repeat what the right hon. gentleman had said of the country banks—that it was not the individuals, but the system of which he complained; for the individuals who composed the directory of those establishments, he had personally the highest respect, from his recollection of the time when he was associated with some of them, and from his intimate acquaintance with their private worth)—had, in some degree, contributed to the present difficulties. He did not mean, of course, to say that they did so intentionally, but that such was the result of part of the system on which they had acted. One cause amongst others of that distress, was the great facility which existed at the end of the war of obtaining a metallic currency. There was at that period a facility of obtaining gold and of returning to a metallic currency, which had not existed to the same extent since; but it did not follow, that because there was a facility of procuring gold, it would therefore come into the country. They who reasoned thus would greatly deceive themselves. Gold and silver would not come unless we had something to give for them, and unless that something was in demand with those countries where it was in plenty. It had been a favourite theory with some to say, that by contracting its issues the Bank could cause gold to come into the country; but that alone would not be sufficient, for unless we sent commodities for it, we could not procure it,
198
199
200
l.
201
l.
l
l.
l.
202
l.
l.
l.
l.
The Chancellor of the Exchequer.
—No, only five millions and a half.
Mr. Baring.
—He did not wish to overstate the matter, and would take the sum to be that which the right hon. gentleman had stated. It was advanced by the Bank to enable the government to pay the dividends. The practice was, for the Bank to advance the sum necessary to pay the dividends, before the government received it; and then to have it repaid shortly afterwards, when the government had received it. Now, the misfortune of this system was, that the advances were again called for in so short a period after they had been repaid, that no advantage was reaped by the Bank from the employment of the money in the interim. The reimbursement was so quick, that the Bank had no time to lay it out; and, what was worse, it was liable to all the inconvenience of having a large quantity of its paper in circulation. Besides these three items, the Bank had undertaken to pay off 2,000,000
l.
203
204
coup-de-grace
205
206
207
208
209
210
211
212
213
l.
l.
214
l.
l.;
l.
215
216
Lord Folkestone
said, it appeared to him that the right hon. gentleman had come to the House with a proposal for applying a remedy to an evil, the nature of which he had not yet ascertained. He thought he did the right hon. gentleman no injustice in this belief; because, no man who looked to his speeches, and to those of his colleagues, could doubt that they appreciated the difficulty and danger which prevailed at much too low a rate. For his own part, he thought that the present crisis was much more serious, and the consequences with which it was fraught much more injurious than his majesty's ministers seemed to imagine. The revulsion which had taken place had produced universal calamity. The property of private individuals was ruined, the most important interests of the country impaired, and its commerce going to decay. Melancholy as the prospect was at this moment, there was no certainty that it would improve. The right hon. gentleman was wholly mistaken if he thought that he (lord Folkestone) was not anxious to prevent that fluctuation which had lately been experienced. On the contrary, he was most anxious to do so, seeing that he attributed to that fluctuation most of the disasters which they had now to deplore. Upon this, as well as upon many other points, he had to assure the right hon. gentleman that he was mistaken. He agreed with his hon. friend who spoke last, that the right hon. gentleman, in the plan which he had suggested, was proceeding too fast. The only remedy which he proposed was, in fact, to repeal the measure of 1823, which was a cabinet measure, and to which, as the right hon. gentleman was then a member of the government, he must be supposed to have given his assent. Although he (lord Folkestone) did not disapprove of that repeal, he must beg leave to trouble the House with a few observations upon it. It would be remembered, that the bill to which he had just alluded was first proposed in 1822,
217
218
s.
s.
d.
s.
d.
219
220
Captain Maberly
observed, that he concurred most fully in all the points which had been laid down in the very able speech of his hon. friend, the member for Taunton, excepting one. He certainly thought that the conduct which the Bank of England had pursued during the recent crisis entitled it to the gratitude of the country; and but for the very liberal assistance which it had rendered during the tempest, he should almost have been tempted to accede to any proposition for disjoining the connection between it and the government. What he objected to in his hon. friend's speech was, his advocating the establishment of two standards of currency, a gold and silver one. With respect to the substitution of a silver and gold currency, instead of that which at present existed, he should have no objection to its being adopted, if it were in the nature of a silver currency, to advance as that of gold might happen to recede; but as he believed that no such effect could possibly be produced, he should
221
222
223
224
225
226
227
s.
s.
d.
s.
228
l.
l.
229
Mr. Huskisson
said, that, although he could not concur with all that had fallen from the hon. member who spoke last, as to the causes of recent events, he was bound to acknowledge that he had made a very clear and luminous statement on the subject. The noble lord opposite, and his hon. friend (the member for Taunton), had, in the course of their addresses to the House, made some observations which would afford him an opportunity of giving an explanation upon a point which appeared to be misunderstood. His hon. friend, the member for Taunton, had indulged in animadversions, harsh and unsupported, on what he was pleased to call the insensibility of the first lord of the Treasury and of his right hon. friend the chancellor of the Exchequer, in respect to the present distresses of the country. He was not sure, indeed, whether his hon. friend had not included the whole of the members of government in his censure. It was not necessary to vindicate the noble lord at the head of the Treasury from the imputation of a want of feeling, either for the difficulties of the country, or the distresses of individuals. He was sure that the noble lord must be aware of the extent of suffering, from the course of his official duties, and the daily intercourse which he must have had with those who were most competent to inform him of the state of affairs in the city. Both the noble lord and his hon. friend had commented very strongly on a passage in the correspondence between government and the Bank, without dis-
230
231
232
l.
233
l.
l.
l.
234
l.
l.
235
s.
d.
s.
d.
236
237
238
239
240
241
242
243
244
Mr. R. Gordon
begged to remind the House, that the right hon. gentleman, who now so fiercely attacked the one and two pound notes, had been, in the year 1822, a member of that very cabinet which came down to the House and introduced them. All parties then were making complaints, especially the agricultural interest. Persons were declaring that they could not pay their rent, their labourers, and their taxes; and then ministers had come down, and proposed, as a remedy for the evil, that very measure which they now desired to abrogate. He was charged with having got some new lights upon the subject. That was a mistake; it was the hon. gentleman opposite whose views had been changed. He had chosen to remain in a very small minority upon the question of passing Mr. Peel's bill; because he thought, as he thought still, that it would be impossible to pay in gold what had been borrowed in paper: and therefore he wished ministers to pause, and reconsider the steps which they were taking. He was glad to hear the right hon. gentleman speak in the terms in which he had expressed himself of country bankers;
245
Mr. Canning
said, that as the night was far advanced, and a number of gentlemen were understood to be still desirous of expressing their sentiments, he thought it would be most convenient that the question should be adjourned to Monday.
This motion being agreed to, the House adjourned.
HOUSE OF COMMONS.
Monday, February 13, 1826.
BANK CHARTER AND PROMISSORY
The Chancellor of the Exchequer
Sir John Wrottesley
rose. It was, he said, necessary, before he entered more at large into the reasons why he wished to take the sense of the House upon the Speaker's leaving the chair, to state why he had not taken this course at an earlier moment. Now, there was a rational objection to that course being taken on Friday last; for then, properly enough, several gentlemen were anxious to hear the statement of the chancellor of the Exchequer, but at this moment the case was materially altered. All those who thought, as he did from the outset, that the project of the right hon. gentleman was impolitic, were bound to take the earliest stand against it. All those who, after hearing that statement, thought the right hon. gentleman's plan to be fraught with danger, ought to take their stand
246
247
248
249
250
s.
s.
s.
251
s.
252
253
Mr. Alderman Thompson
said, he was extremely anxious to take an opportunity of expressing his sentiments on this question, which he considered of the first importance, as it involved the safety, nay, the existence, of every man's property, of whatsoever kind that property might be. He had, ever since he had the honour of a seat in that House, given his support to ministers in all their measures relating to the commercial policy of the
254
l.
l.
l.
l.
255
l.
l.
256
Mr. Leycester
said, that, instead of complaining of the conduct of his majesty's government in endeavouring to put an end to the mischievous prerogative exercised by the country bankers, of adding to the circulating medium of the country at their pleasure, he was disposed to give them the greatest credit for the effort. That prerogative of the country bankers was the cause of all the evil which we at present endured: that prerogative had occasioned the redundance of paper with which the country was inundated: that prerogative, by occasioning such a redundance of paper, had increased the price of labour and of corn: that prerogative, by occasioning such a redundance of paper, had forced the 3 per cents, up to 95, which had given birth to all the extravagant speculations by which the nation had been brought to the verge of ruin. The principles on which that mischievous prerogative of
257
258
259
Mr. T. Wilson
said, that if this measure had been proposed by way of trial, he should not have felt surprised at it, or at the manner in which it had been viewed by some hon. members; but, he must own that he lamented to find that it was proposed by his majesty's ministers, as founded upon part of his majesty's Speech, and that part, too, which referred to the distressed state of the country. As a remedy, or even a palliative, for that distress, it was nothing—nay, it was worse than nothing; for it served but to aggravate the existing evil, and carry it to a still much greater extent. Far from allaying the degree of distrust and alarm that prevailed, it would, in his opinion, serve but
260
261
262
l.
Mr. John Smith
admitted, that the question was accompanied with consider, able difficulties, which made him pause seriously as to the vote he should give; but, after having heard the speeches of some gentlemen on that and the former evening, he must say, that those difficulties were removed, and that he was prepared to vote with government in support of the proposition before the House.
263
264
265
266
267
s.
l.
268
Mr. C. Grant
said, he entirely concurred with his hon. friend as to the importance of the resolution before the House, and the necessity of there being as little delay as possible in coming to a decision upon it. At the same time, he could not but feel somewhat surprised at the inconsistency of his hon. friend, in advising, in one part of his speech, that the measure should be suspended for a time, and in another, that the House should not adjourn without coming to a decision upon it. It was equally inconsistent in the hon. member to censure government for not having delayed some time longer, before they proposed the very remedy to which he now attached such importance, and now to call upon them to come boldly forward and carry that remedy into operation. He would admit, that ministers might be blamed for not delaying to propose any remedy, if by such delay it could be hoped the evil would correct itself; but, if that could not be expected, then it was their duty to come forward and show that they were alive to the subject, to frame their measure so as, if it could not cure the disorder, it would prevent its extension, and guard against its recurrence. It was impossible to avoid doing something on the subject, even though they might not succeed in affording an immediate remedy. He was glad to perceive that there were no objections to the merits of the proposed plan. The chief that he had heard were as to the time. One hon. member had said, that at such a crisis as the present it ought not to be introduced; another had
269
270
271
272
273
274
Sir John Newport
wished, that the hon. members who were adverse to the measures introduced by the chancellor of the Exchequer, with a view to prevent the issue of small notes, to consider dispassionately, all the evils which it produced. An over issue of them entailed upon every class of the community, evils, which not only affected the class who might be most prepared to meet them, but even the lowest class—those who should be the peculiar object of their care. They should consider how they would be circumstanced, if they were left with a currency, which was, at all times, liable to the panic lately witnessed in this country, and to be operated on by every rumour which malignant individuals might be disposed to propagate. As affecting the country to which he belonged, no country ever suffered so much. He spoke feelingly on the subject, having been himself concerned with many of his most intimate connexions in banking there; and from the knowledge he had acquired of the system, he considered the issue of small notes, not only destructive to the person who received them in payment, but injurious, eventually, to the bankers who issued them. It might be said, that no evil could arise, where notes of this description were issued by solvent bankers. He would show how soon the most solvent bankers might be drawn into the miseries incidental to an over issue. A solvent banker, for instance, acting prudently for a series of years, finds, started up in opposition to him, a
275
276
Mr. Alderman Heygate
said, that the present question was not whether this was a prudent or an imprudent measure, but whether this was the proper time for interfering with the most delicate of all things—the currency of the country. Nothing had caused more astonishment in his mind, than the first sentence in the letter recently sent by the first lord of the Treasury, to the Bank, in which he found it boldly stated, that the panic was over, and that the pecuniary affairs of the country were once more flowing from their wholesome accustomed sources, and running through their wonted channels. For his own part, he was convinced that the panic had been increasing ever since parliament met, and that in consequence of the long continuance of this panic, the currency of the country had been reduced to so low an ebb, as to be scarcely sufficient for the carrying on of the commercial transactions of the country. The paper issues were now as much contracted as the most ardent admirer of the bullion system could wish: gold was flowing into the country as fast as possible; and it would necessarily continue to do so, for the country was full of merchandize of all sorts, which had been paid for, and which, when exported, must unavoidably in a short time bring back gold. But, at the present moment, the currency of the country was not sufficient, and in consequence of such insufficiency, there was a stagnation in all kinds of business. Ought the currency, then, at this critical period, to be still further diminished? Was it wise in the government, when such was the state of the pecuniary affairs
277
278
279
l.
280
l.
281
l.
l.
282
283
l.
l.
284
285
286
Mr. Secretary Peel
said, that in immediately following the hon. gentleman who had just sat down, he would endeavour to take advantage of his precept, by confining himself as much as possible to the subject under the consideration of the House. He could not, however, forbear expressing some surprise that the gentleman who had uttered that precept had himself so far departed from it as to introduce to the notice of the House a bill which he had formerly brought under its consideration; and that the hon. gentleman in adverting to that bill, had dwelt rather upon the speech which introduced
287
288
289
290
291
292
s.
293
s.
s.
l.
l.
l.,
l.,
l.
294
295
296
l.
l.
l.
297
l.
l.,
298
"Monte decurrens velut amnis, imbres
Quem super notas aluere ripas,
Fervet, immensusque ruit."
299
Mr. Attwood
said, he had listened with great attention to the speech just delivered by the right hon. secretary; as he had listened also to the different statements of his honourable colleagues; but the conviction on his mind was, that they had altogether failed to make out any grounds for the measures they proposed, and had given none but the most inadequate and contradictory exposition of the causes and character of that condition of distress which they proposed to relieve. The arguments and course of proceeding of the right hon. secretary, indeed, though mistaken, were at least intelligible and consistent; but the arguments of his colleagues were in direct contradiction to the measures they recommended. The first origin and root of the distress under consideration, it appeared to the right hon. secretary, was to be found in the failure of some seventy country bankers, and so believing, it was consistent in him to support measures intended to limit the future circulation of the country bankers' paper, and to give it greater stability. But he desired to ask him, whether the fact were not, and if it were not well known to him, and to every gentleman whom he addressed, that it was not with the country bankers that the failures commenced? Every gentleman who heard him, knew that they began in London. Six or seven London banking-houses suspended their payments in about half that number of days, and those failures were the immediate, direct, and inevitable cause of the disasters among the country bankers. It was in London, and not in the country, that these pecuniary disorders began; in the heart of their monied system, and not in its extremities; and it was there that they must look for their cause. The failure at once of six or seven London bankers, from whatever cause it had arisen, was indeed a circumstance of great importance, and was well worthy the serious inquiry of parliament. No instance of a similar event was to be found in the pecuniary history of the country. Those houses held in their hands the active capital, the reserve for payments, the cash and funds of various kinds, of more than a hundred country banks. And, was it a matter of surprise that, under circumstances so calamitous, many of those establishments had themselves failed in the regular discharge of their engagements I It was rather matter of surprise that no greater number had failed, and that of
300
301
302
Mr. Attwood
said, he was as little able to agree with his hon. friend, the member for Taunton, in the cause which he had assigned for the existing state of things; and he was satisfied that further consideration would show him, that he had mistaken for the cause of the present distress, what was only one of its consequences. He saw the origin of the present distressed condition of the country, in the large advances of the Bank to government, by which the resources of the Bank had been locked up in unavailable and inconvertible securities, and that body rendered unable to assist, in the emergency which had arisen, either the government or the country. Now, he confessed, that when he heard his hon. friend recapitulate the resources of the Bank, and state, amongst these resources, six or seven millions employed in Exchequer bills, and six or seven millions in government annuities, he calculated on his coming to a conclusion very different from one which represented the whole funds of that body to be locked up in unavailable and inconvertible securities. What securities could be more convertible or more available than these? The question plainly was, whence arose that state of things which rendered such securities as
303
304
305
306
l.
l.
l.
l.
l.
l.
l.
307
308
the sum into circulation, and in, the hope of affording some relaxation to the existing pressure."
309
310
311
s.
s.
l.
s.
d.
s
s.
312
l.
s.
d.
l.
l.
s.
l.,
l.,
s.,
s.
s.,
313
s.,
s.,
s.
314
315
316
Mr. Hudson Gurney
said, that after the admirable speech of the hon. member for Callington, he could have little to add, and the less, as he (Mr. G.) in the main, agreed with the right hon. Secretary for the Home Department, who had preceded him, in his view of the general working of the banking system. His object in rising was, therefore, principally for the sake of giving notice, that in case the House should go into a committee on the chancellor of the Exchequer's resolutions, he should move an amendment to leave out the words "or by the Bank of England." Mr. G. said, that the fluctuations and distresses which had been suffered by every interest, and most, perhaps, by the agricultural, were attributable to the blunders and narrowness of view, of the Bullion committee of 1810; the members of which seemed to have held a one-pound note before their eyes, and not to have been able to see through it. It had not been his good fortune to have enjoyed the acquaintance of the late Mr. Horner. He had no doubt that learned and much lamented gentleman came from Edinburgh profoundly versed in Scotch metaphysics and English law; and he gave him credit for the possession of every grace and every virtue that could adorn humanity; but, the question of the currency of this country he did not understand; and, consequently, though in the report of that committee he acknowledged a depreciation of 20 per cent, he did not perceive that it was the amount of debt and of taxation which, swelling our numerical reckonings
317
Mr. Gurney
said, that in his view of the whole subject, it consisted of two parts; which, though much mixed up in these debates, it was necessary to distinguish—the one, the general state of the minor currency; the other, the present mercantile distress. Now it should be recollected, that in 1824, the circulating medium had so adapted itself to the wants of the internal traffic of the country, that no prices were extravagant, but every interest might be considered to be at ease. Towards the end of that year, from the sudden and enormous rise in the prices of the shares of one company, on which even the instalments had not been paid—company after company, bubble after bubble, sprung up; so that by the first of February 1825, there were 114 projects, for the most part utterly absurd, in existence; the shares of which amounted nominally to about a hundred millions. These paper shares might probably pass from hand to hand as an imaginary property of from five and twenty to thirty millions; which, by the first of November, were utterly extinguished. We were brought to the end of a South-Sea year; and no one could wonder at the concussion from the fall of such a water-spout. It was on this paper flooding the market, that prices of all things had been constantly rising, and, commercial adventure had run wild; and not on the unhappy one-pound notes, which formed the subject of the chancellor of the Exchequer's resolutions. Now, he repeated, that to the issue of the one-pound notes of private bankers, there had been no greater enemy than himself from the beginning; but, it must be obvious, that if these notes were to be called in, the only possible way of doing it, without bringing every thing to a stand-still, would be the substituting those of the Bank of England in the first instance, let, the final arrangement be what it might. At present, gold was only paid away to be hoarded. The conduct of the Bank of England had been, in this crisis, beyond all praise. Without their notes, nothing could go on; and, if they were withdrawn, the country would be left without a circulation, or any means of liquidating the ordinary transactions between man and man.
318
Mr. Secretary Canning
rose, and said:—Before I proceed, Sir, to address the House, as briefly as I can, upon the very interesting and important subject which now engages its attention, I beg leave to set myself right with some honourable gentlemen, by assuring them, that in whatever I may say, of the present system of our currency, and of the necessity of a speedy reform in it, I do not mean, in the slightest degree, to impute blame, or imply disrespect, to a body of men, whose character has been drawn into the debate; the administrators of the system, as it at present stands [hear, hear!]. So far, Sir, from wishing to disparage the country bankers, I think they have been of great and essential service to the country. I believe them to have been the medium of communicating a wholesome stimulus to industry, and of directing into useful and legitimate channels, the industry and enterprise of the country. I believe that, if they have acted unadvisedly—if they have done any thing amiss—it is to be attributed to the nature of the system, under which they have been compelled to act, and not to any abuse of the power lodged in their hands.
319
320
*
321
*
*
† Alderman Heygate.
322
Mr. Baring.
—I rise, Sir, to complain of the course which the right hon. gentleman is taking. I really do not think it quite fair, after I have apologized to the right hon. gentleman for the mistake into which I fell, that he should charge me with making that mistake intentionally [Cries of "No, no, unintentional"].
Mr. Secretary Canning
continued.—I spoke of the error as not being intentional; but, I submit to the hon. gentleman, that the part which I took in 1811, having been, however unintentionally, misstated, that it is necessary for me to set myself right with the House. I voted, on the discussion of the report of the Bullion-committee, for all the resolutions moved by the late Mr. Horner, which went to affirm the true principles of our monetary system; and I voted
against
323
324
l.
l.
l.
l.
l
l.
l.
325
l.
326
l.
l.
l.
l.
327
l.
l.
l.
328
l.
l.
l.
l.
l.,
329
l.
l.
l.;
l.
330
l.
l.
l.
l.
l.
331
332
333
334
335
336
337
338
*
*
339
340
Mr. Pearse
defended the conduct of the Bank of England, and complained
341
342
Mr. Baring
said, it was not his intention to take up a great deal of the time of the House, nor would he, in fact, have troubled hon. members at all, but that he intended to propose an amendment, in order to bring the question at once to a decision; because he was quite convinced that discussion from day to day, whatever might be its result, would have the certain effect of aggravating the difficulties under which all interests at present were labouring. What the country wanted mainly was, that the question should be set at rest. Let the decision of parliament be taken and made known, and interests would endeavour to accommodate themselves to it; but, if the House was to go into a committee, and argue the subject at length, so long as that discussion lasted, the country would be kept upon the rack. Therefore, under such circumstances, he felt it his duty to take the sense of the House at once upon the proposed measure. He felt most strongly that it was an ill-advised measure, and would add to the distresses of the country, but that, whether carried or rejected, the sooner it was dismissed the better. What he meant to embody in his amendment, was an opinion, common, he believed, to
343
344
345
346
347
l.
l.
l.
l.
l.
l.
l.
l.
l.
l.
l.
348
l.
l.
l.
349
Mr. Grenfell
said, he could not tell whether his hon. friend would consider him a practical man. However, be that as it might, he would give it as his deliberate opinion, that not only might this measure be with safety adopted, but that in his conscience he believed there would be no safety for the circulation of the country without it. Further, he would say, that, in all his communications with practical men, he had not found one who did not declare that the cause of the pressure originated in the country-banknotes, and that one of the remedies was their removal.
Mr. Brougham
said, he could not, on a question of such importance, content himself with a silent vote. Whatever opinion his hon. friend might hold of his being a practical man, he would endeavour to state, as shortly and as practically as he could, the reasons why he differed from him, on the only ground respecting which there could be any difference of opinion. His hon. friend, practically speaking, was of opinion, that a recurrence to a metallic currency was necessary to the support of our commerce; and that, without getting rid of the small notes, it would be utterly impossible to arrive at the desired result. Thus far they were agreed; and the only question between them was as to time. Now, a few words on that point only. His first reason for dissenting from his hon. friend as to time was one as purely practical, and as little visionary or theoretic as could well be imagined. His first reason for the immediate adoption of the measure, as contradistinguished from a postponement, was, that the plan was already partly in execution. His first practical reason was, the consequence of the over-trading and panic by which the mischiefs had been aggravated. The small notes did not cause the over-trading, or originate the mischief; but, when the mischief had arisen, it was then very materially aggravated by the small notes in circulation. Runs were accordingly made: and it could not be denied, that when fear seized the minds of the holders of notes, the
350
351
352
353
Mr. Secretary Canning
said, he agreed completely in the justice, of the observation with which the learned gentleman had concluded his speech, and he believed that the sentiment was fully participated in by every member of the House. As the question, however, which was then before the House, namely, "that the Speaker do leave the chair," was merely a question of form, the decision of it might not appear
354
Upon this understanding the House divided; for Mr. Baring's amendment 39, against it 222. Majority 183.
List of the Minority.
Attwood, M.
Irving, J.
Bright, H.
Kemp, T. R.
Benett, J.
Martin, J.
Bridges, Ald.
Maberly, J.
Blair, James
Maberly, W. L.
Baring, sir T.
Palmer, Fyshe
Calcraft, J.
Plummer, J.
Calvert, N.
Robarts, A. W.
Farquhar, sir R.
Robarts, col.
Gurney, Hudson
Robertson, Alex.
Gordon, Rt.
Robinson, sir G.
Griffith, L. W.
Smith, S.
Graham, sir S.
Smith, Abel
Grosset, J. R.
Thompson, Ald.
Gascoyne, T.
Wilson, T.
Hume, J.
Whitbread, W. H.
Heygate, Ald.
Wood, Ald.
Heathcote, G.
Walker, J.
Honywood, W. P.
TELLERS.
Innes, J.
Baring, A.
Ingilby, sir W. A.
Wrottesley, sir J.
The original question was then agreed to, and the House resolved itself into the committee. On the Resolution being read,
Mr. Hudson Gurney
observed, that, if government destroyed all the country bankers' notes, and, at the same time, stopped the issue of one-pound notes by the Bank of England, they would leave the country in a state of destitution, of which they could not have any adequate conception. That establishment was not liable to the imputations thrown out against the country banks, of being desirous to put out their small paper without rule or guide. He should therefore move, as an amendment, that the words "or by the Bank of England" be left out of the resolution.
The Chancellor of the Exchequer
said, that although much of the inconvenience that would result from permitting country bank notes still to circulate, would not attend the continued circulation of the
355
Mr. Maberly
said, that he could not discover the expediency or consistency of suppressing the small notes in England, and allowing them to circulate in Scotland and Ireland. If the principle were good for one kingdom, it would be equally beneficial for the others. He had received letters from Scotland which represented that country as being placed in the utmost state of alarm and apprehension as to the course which government proposed to pursue. It was not so much that the people there were anxious for the carrying of any particular measure, as that they were solicitous to know what was to happen. "Let us," they cried, "only know what you intend to do, and we shall be satisfied."
The Chancellor of the Exchequer
agreed with the hon. member for Abingdon, as to the extent to which the principle should be carried; and as he perceived that the hon. gentleman had not been in the House on a former evening, when a noble lord had asked the same question, he would repeat, that it was his intention to carry the principle into full effect, both in Scotland and in Ireland, and that the only grounds for making any variation depended upon the question of time. It was his intention, however, in a very few days, to lay before the House his plan for the suppression of small notes, both in Scotland and other parts of the country.
Mr. Baring
said, he considered that the object of the amendment, namely, to allow the small notes of the Bank of England to circulate, whilst those of the country banks were suppressed, would be utterly intolerable, on any sound principle.
Mr. Hume
said, he did not rise to continue the discussion of the night, but merely to protest against the measure which had been just adopted. He thought
356
Mr. Peel
said, that the hon. gentleman had rather mis-stated the tendency of his bill, when he said it was founded on Mr. Ricardo's principle; whereas it was well known, that Mr. Ricardo's proposition was to pay Bank notes in ingots of gold. But, the principle of his bill was, to render notes of the smallest amount convertible into gold; and there was, in addition, a positive prohibition against the circulation of country bank notes after the lapse of two years from the passing of the bill; and if that bill had been carried into complete effect there would not now have been a country one-pound note in circulation.
Mr. Hudson Gurney
said, he felt the amendment which he had offered to be of so much importance, that he should persist in pressing it. He was firmly of opinion, that had it not been for the issues of the one-pound notes by the Bank of England at the time that they took place, the recent calamity would have been greatly aggravated. These issues had done the greatest good; and in the event of a similar emergency, he thought that means of similar assistance should be available to the exigencies of the country.
The House then divided—for the amendment 7; against it 66; majority, 59.
List of the Minority.
Attwood, Matthias
Thomson, Alderman.
Buxton, T. F.
Wodehouse, Edmond.
Gordon, hon. W.
TELLER.
Martin, John
Gurney, Hudson
Palmer, Fysche
The original resolution was agreed to.
HOUSE OF COMMONS.
Tuesday, February 14, 1826.
SILK TRADE.]
Mr. Ellice,
seeing the
357
Mr. Huskisson
was desirous of merely stating now, that the opinion noticed by the hon. gentleman, that the quantity of silk goods to be introduced from France by the proposed alterations of the law, would be precisely the quantity at present brought in by smuggling was no opinion
358
Sir T. Lethbridge
was glad that the discussion would so speedily take place, but he would have been more satisfied, if the right hon. gentleman had given them hopes that he would assent to the appointment of the committee. If the manufacturers complained of one thing more than another, it was that no satisfactory reasons had been assigned for the intended alteration of the law.
Mr. Davenport
expressed his regret that ministers were not more explicit on the subject.
THE CURRENCY—COUNTRY BANKERS'
Mr. R. Gordon
rose to present a petition, to which he called the serious attention of the House. This petition, though not numerously was as respectably signed as any ever laid upon the table of that House. The subscribers were proprietors, farmers, and others, resident in and near Cirencester. All agreed in opinion, that the ministers were wrong in the course which they were about to take respecting the currency, and prayed, that the government would be just pleased to do nothing at all. It was, he thought, inexpedient to touch so delicate a matter as the currency, until the effect of the panic had subsided, and things had worked round their own remedy.
Mr. Benett
bore testimony to the great respectability of the petitioners, and concurred in their opinion, that a more unfortunate time than the present could not have been taken for agitating this important question.
Sir T. Lethbridge
thought the time had arrived, when it was imperative on government to do all in their power to place the currency upon a solid basis. The panic was passing away, and what was now doing would tend greatly to remove the want of confidence which prevailed in money matters. The plan now in progress would tend to secure to the poor man the full produce of his industry in a coin which could not be depreciated. He had no doubt that the return to a metallic circulation could be carried into effect with very little difficulty, for there was gold enough in the country to fill up the vacuum formed by the disappearance of
359
Sir John Brydges
thanked ministers for the course they had taken respecting the currency. The most fallacious system which this country had ever acted upon was that of the small-note circulation. He descanted upon the evils which had arisen from it, in districts where bank-failures had taken place. It was shocking to witness, as he had done, such scenes of heart-rending distress.
NAVIGATION ACT—TREATIES WITH
Mr. Huskisson
360
Mr. Robertson
strongly condemned this miscalled and delusive system of reciprocity, but which was, in point of fact, no reciprocity whatever. They were now called upon to admit French ships into their own trade.
Mr. Huskisson
—I did not say a word about French ships, which have nothing to do with the present question.
Mr. Robertson
contended, that measures of this kind, which were every day pressed forward by government, shewed a total absence of that high national feeling which had influenced the councils of Great Britain, until these late times in which they lived had cast a new light upon the whole range of their commercial policy. It was a delusion to call the present project one of reciprocity; for England, overloaded with taxes as she was, was giving away a decided national advantage, without receiving the slightest equivalent. The repeal of so essential a part of the navigation laws must have the speedy effect of throwing the trade of these new states into the hands of foreigners of all nations, who would flock to these republican governments, where they could soon acquire the rights of citizenship, and establish them selves with sufficient shipping; which could be obtained, from their greater exemption from municipal burthens, at one half the expense at which the British could provide the same marine. Thus the carrying trade of Colombia, instead of being kept by England, would be flung into the hands of foreigners, contrary to the na-
361
Mr. Heathcote
wished to ask the right lion, gentleman opposite, whether the effect of these new measures had not been to diminish the number of British seamen, in the general British trade? From returns which he held in his hand, he saw that though the shipping had increased, the number of British seamen had diminished.
Mr. Huskisson
was unable to comprehend to what relaxation of the navigation laws the hon. gentleman alluded. The great principle of the navigation laws; namely, that the shipping of other countries trading to England, should be confined to the conveyance of their respective commodities, unless on the payment of additional duties, remained the same. With respect to the decrease of the seamen, he was not prepared, off hand, to explain it, if it were a fact. In time of peace it was probable that the commercial interests, though they had increased their shipping, had not, in the same degree, augmented their number of seamen. They might have economized in the latter, and perhaps had done so. There was, however, no alteration in that provision of the navigation laws which required the master and two thirds of the crew to be British subjects.
Mr. Hume
wished to ask the right hon. gentleman whether he meant to redeem the pledge given last session, relative to a reduction in the duty on timber, and other articles imported for the purpose of shipbuilding. When he and others, last session, agreed to the reciprocity duties bill, they were assured that such a reduction would be effected, and it was on that ground that he supported the measure.
362
Sir R. Fergusson
said, that the effect of the present system would be, that the whole of the ship-building would be carried to other places. Merchants would send to Canada or New Brunswick for the tonnage they required. The number of ships constructed in those ports every year, was so great, that it was difficult to procure sailors to man them. When, therefore, the merchants of this country sent a vessel out to any of those ports, it was customary for the men to leave her, and to go on board some of the newly-built vessels, which they navigated to England at a great advance of wages.
The House having resolved itself into a committee,
Mr. Huskisson
observed, that the position relative to the connexion of this country with certain of the South American states, which had recently been laid downby the hon. member for Grampound, was manifestly erroneous. Treaties had been entered into with Colombia and Buenos Ayres, states which could not, by possibility, have any shipping of their own at present; and his object was to relieve them, under these peculiar circum
363
Mr. Hume
repeated, that the mercantile navy of England was rapidly declining. In 1822, the amount of foreign shipping brought into this country was 469,000 tons; in 1823, 582,000 tons; in 1824, 759,000 tons; and last year it was upwards of 1,000,000 tons; while the shipping of the country remained stationary. In his view of the case, this was owing to the impediments thrown in the way of the ship-builders, by the heavy duties laid on all the articles used in building vessels. He therefore wished to know whether it was or was not intended to grant a reduction of duties on those materials?
Mr. Robertson
said, that this was another proof of the mischievous consequences of the theoretic system on which the legislature was proceeding. Let the government take off all the taxes, and then there would be something like reciprocity between this and other countries. If this were done, we could compete with—ay, and beat—the French, the Prussians, the Russians, or any other maritime power. But, while this immense load of taxes was continued, it was impossible that what was denominated reciprocity could prevail. Providence seemed, in an especial degree, to come to the assistance of this nation, when ill-judged measures threatened to injure it most severely. In the present instance, the internal commerce of England had increased amazingly. The trade with Ireland, in particular, was greatly extended; and the consequence was, that the decay of our foreign commerce was not attended with such ill effects as must otherwise proceed from its diminution. He strenuously ad-
364
The resolution was agreed to, and leave was given to bring in a bill, "to give effect to Treaties of Commerce with countries in America, not at present provided with National Shipping."
CONDUCT OF MR. KENRICK.]
Mr. Denman
wished that the entry on the Journals of last session, relative to this case, should be read. I was his intention to have moved, that on this day the House should resolve itself into a committee to investigate this subject further; and then, in that committee, he would proceed to examine witnesses. Since he had come down to the House, he had heard that the gentleman who was the object of this charge was not perfectly prepared to meet it, as he was not provided with counsel. Now, although he did not wish to take any undue advantage of that gentleman, he would persevere from day to day, as far as the business of the House would permit him, until he had brought this matter to a termination. He meant to move that the House should resolve itself into a committee; but, whether that committee should take place this day or on any other, he would leave to the decision of the House. If the gentleman who was the object of this charge thought that the direct examination of witnesses this day, leaving to him the privilege of cross-examining them on a future occasion, would answer his convenience, and be sufficient for the attainment of impartial justice, he was ready to adopt that course.
Mr. Denison
said, he had just seen Mr. Kenrick, who, as he did not know whether the charge would or would not be entertained this day, was not prepared with counsel to meet it. He was, however, most anxious that the charge should be gone into as soon as possible. He begged leave, under these circumstances, to suggest, that the discussion should be adjourned until Thursday next.
Mr. Peel
said, he had no objection to that course, but as the matter was before
365
Mr. Hudson Gurney
said, it did appear to him that the House of Commons, which at that moment was engaged in the consideration of matters of the most portentous nature, ought not to have its attention divided by the introduction of this inquiry. Was it proper, at such a time, that, night after night, the Commons of Great Britain should waste their time in discussing the merits of this story of a Surrey justice and the fleece of a ram?
Mr. Calcraft
said, that the way to administer substantial justice was, not to proceed until the person accused was prepared to make his defence. They might then proceed with the accusations. With this object in view, the inquiry ought to be postponed until Thursday.
Mr. S. Bourne
knew of no means by which this inquiry could be prosecuted, except that of examining and cross-examining witnesses on the same day. It was evident, that a very different aspect might be given to the case, if witnesses were examined directly on one day, and were subjected to cross-examination on another. Such a proceeding would form a most mischievous precedent.
Mr. W. Lamb
could not help expressing the strong objection which he entertained against going into this inquiry at all. The case, so far as he could comprehend it, was, that the accused party had, without sufficient grounds, committed an individual for felony. Admitting that to be the fact—supposing, for argument's sake, the individual to have been actuated by vindictive motives—still, he contended, that this was not the place to institute a prosecution, or to seek for redress. If such a principle were allowed, parliament would be constantly applied to, instead of the courts of law. Every trespass, every trifling error, committed by a magistrate, however innocently, would be brought before parliament. He would ask, were they fit to exercise judicial functions in a case like this? Did it make any difference whether the accused party was a magistrate for Surrey, or one of the justices of the great session of Wales? Some of the acts alleged against him were neither perpetrated in his magisterial nor judicial capacity. The House, it seemed, was called on to exercise its judgment, not merely on any thing improper that might appear after judicial inquiry, but they were asked to go further, and to look into any act of
366
Mr. Brougham
wished to say one word with respect to the evidence adduced in the case of Mr. Smith. He admitted, that there was not one document which would have been received in a court below in this country. But, it unfortunately happened, that the evidence on which that case was founded, though it would not be received here, was received in Demerara.
Mr. Peel
felt very strongly the observations of his hon. friend; and, if this had been an original motion, perhaps he would have acceded to his view of the case. But, as the inquiry had been already entertained, he thought there would be considerable difficulty in stopping where they were.
Lord John Russell
said, it was a principle of the constitution, that judges should only be removable for partial or improper conduct; and it seemed to him
367
Mr. Denman
said, that as he had received no notice of the opposition which
368
BANK CHARTER AND PROMISSORY
Mr. Brogden
appearing at the bar with the report of the Resolutions of the committee on the above acts,
Mr. Calcraft
said, that as he had not had an opportunity last night of delivering his opinion on the nature of the plan proposed by ministers, he would, in as few words as possible, state explicitly what his view of the subject was. He could assure the House that his opinions were not at all altered after hearing most attentively the whole of this protracted discussion. With the greatest wish to concur in the sentiments of the majority on this occasion, he felt, after giving the question the best consideration in his power, that they were going to legislate in a most improvident and imprudent manner. He was not a favourer of that sort of currency which it was the object of the chancellor of the Exchequer to remove. He wished as much as any man for a sound metallic currency; and when misfortunes, such as those which had lately occurred, pressed heavily on the
369
370
371
Mr. Hudson Gurney
said, in the observations he had to make, he should confine himself to that which was purely practical. He believed, that the amount of gold coin likely to be wanted, in order to replace the one-pound notes withdrawn, had been very greatly under-estimated; as he had no doubt that four-fifths of that which was issued would, in the first instance, be hoarded; and until those persons were supplied who, under the influence of distrust, were thus endeavouring to secure themselves, there could be no free circulation of sovereigns. As he had said before, he was still of opinion, that it was impossible to return to a circulation entirely metallic, unless some alteration took place in the Mint regulations. In that opinion he continued firm; and was decided in his conviction, that if government were to pursue, in their strictness, the measures they were driving forward, they would bring the country to a standstill; but in this, whether he were right, or whether wrong, it had nothing to do with that which he wished more immediately to urge.—The immediate object was, to supply some medium of sufficient security, that could not be run in more rapidly than it was physically possible to meet, and which would not be hoarded. The resolution which went to allow the bankers' notes to pass for three years longer, was, in its nature, nugatory. That species of circulation was discredited in public opinion; and the being thus cried down was nearly tantamount to its immediate suppression. He should, therefore, on the bringing up the report, again move
372
Mr. Ellice
said, that having voted in support of the proposition of the chancellor of the Exchequer, in opposition to certain opinions which he had been in the habit of expressing, he was desirous of explaining to the House the grounds of his vote. He quite concurred with his hon. friend, the member for Callington, as to the distressing examples which the history of our currency afforded of the effects of that nefarious system which now, thank God! they were about to get rid of. When the bill of 1819 passed, he was in a small division; not that he objected to a metallic circulation, but because he wished to have a standard accommodated to the circumstances of the country, and which would keep pace with the contracts of individuals. However, the House passed that bill, determined, at all events, to make the experiment of compelling the country to meet all their engagements, and individuals to fulfil all their contracts, according to the ancient standard. Now, he would ask, what were the consequences of departing from that resolution? The result was, that every departure made it more difficult to approach that period
373
374
l.
375
376
377
378
379
380
l.
s.
381
Mr. T. Wilson
said, he had listened, with great attention, to the speech of the hon. member for Coventry, and, although he agreed with him upon some points, he could not but say there was a great deal of inconsistency in his reasoning. At one time, he said the evil proceeded from a reduction of capital, at another, from over-speculation and redundance; and, while he argued that there was no apprehension of the contempt of the nations of Europe, or of any attempts upon the peace of this country from the state of its finances, he, the next moment, deplored the existence of that contempt, and expressed his dread of its effects; first saying, that the evils of the day would go to the root of credit, if not put a stop to; and Then asserting, that our credit was already lower than that of any nation on earth. He did not mean to follow the hon. gen-
382
383
l.
l.
384
The Chancellor of the Exchequer
said, that though he had no reason to complain of the manner in which the hon. member had shaped the question which he had put to him, which was certainly neither disrespectful nor offensive in its terms, still he could not help reminding the hon. member, that if he thought his majesty's ministers were such unskilful pilots in a storm, he ought not to have contributed to support them in the management of the boat during the fair weather. He did not pretend to say, that those who supported the measures of ministers were responsible for the errors of those measures, in case they proved injurious instead of beneficial to the community—by no means; the responsibility was with government, and from that responsibility neither he, nor any member of it, wished to shrink; but this he did say, that it was a little too hard to be reproached for the weakness and impolicy of their measures, by those who had been the first to support them. Whether the present ministers were qualified to weather such a storm as now raged, it would be presumption in him to decide; but this he felt himself justified in declaring that he had endeavoured to learn something of the nature of the storm, and that the measure which he had introduced to
385
386
387
Mr. T. Wilson
said, that when he spoke of his confidence being lessened in ministers, he was not speaking of his confidence in the wisdom of their general policy, but of his confidence in their wisdom as to this particular measure.
Mr. Robertson
said, he had listened with eager attention to the speeches of his majesty's ministers, in which he could not discover any effectual plan for the relief of the distresses which afflicted the country. He had, from the commencement, been the person—almost the only person—who had come boldly forward to blame the ministers for the situation in which the country was placed. That it was daily declining in prosperity, and from no cause more so than from the operation of the measures lately introduced by those ministers, was a conviction strongly impressed upon his mind. It was difficult, he was aware, to adduce proofs of the declining prosperity of the country; however strongly impressed he might be with the opinion that it was in a worse condition than it had formerly been in. One
388
l.
s.
s.
l.
l.
389
390
Sir Henry Parnell
said, that his vote of the preceding night must have sufficiently testified his approbation of the principle of this measure. But, allowing that it, and the other proposal in respect to the banking establishments, would produce a good effect, as he thought they certainly would do, he did not believe they would place the banking system of the country, as a right hon. gentleman seemed to have insinuated, on a permanent and secure footing. He thought people would greatly delude themselves who should permit government to persuade them, that these two plans would do what government said they would do. Seeing what effects the conduct of the Bank of England had always produced on our commercial system at all seasons of similar distress, he confessed his firm conviction that such security as was desired for the future, was and would be unattainable, until their exclusive and mischievous privileges should have been finally got rid of. He knew that this was not a subject well adapted for desultory discussion j but even those hon. gentlemen who were most opposed in opinion upon questions of a nature like that now under consideration, were agreed as to the great extent of the mischief that had resulted from the conduct of the Bank during the past year. In the years 1783, 1793, and 1797, the course which it had pursued, had been precisely the same as in these days: namely, it had gone on in a course of over-issues. And the evil of our banking system, generally speaking, had been, that when it should have been most cautious and sparing of its circulation, it had been most lavish of it; and when commercial embarrassments required that it should be most liberal of its paper, it had been most careful to withhold it. He was satisfied that, until the extensive privileges of the Bank of England were got rid of, in the city of London, as well as throughout the country, there would remain a power of doing mischief, and of increasing the malady under which the pecuniary resources of the empire seemed to labour, that would be acted upon. To the mode in which the gentlemen who conducted the affairs of the Bank of England endeavoured to discharge their duty, and to the correctness and integrity of their motives, he gave every credit. But, seeing that this company, which consisted of an amazingly numerous body of proprietors, had the power of issuing paper to an enormous extent,
391
392
Mr. Alderman Bridges
was of opinion, that great evils had resulted to the country from the principles of free trade. Very large importations had taken place, and the foreign merchants drew their bills at such short dates, that great sacrifices were necessary to meet them. He knew one house on which bills had been drawn for a million of money for wool alone. The distress at the present moment was very great, owing, perhaps to overtrading; but that spirit of over-trading he verily believed, was excited by the conversion of the 4 per cents. He thought government might afford essential relief by a timely issue of Exchequer bills. The merchants had plenty of property, but there was no sale for it; and therefore it was of no use for them to look at their books. If they had goods to the amount of half a million, they might as well have so many stones from the street, if money could not be raised upon them.
Sir F. Blake
observed, that liberality appeared to be the order of the day; the ministers had adopted a liberal policy, and their adherents were determined not to be behind-hand with them, for they were liberal also; but their liberality was in the abuse of ministers, whose policy did not suit their narrow views. Every body was now liberal in turn. Even the gentlemen on the ministerial benches had been liberal on many occasions; but on none had they been more so than in their censures on ministers for their conduct in the present crisis. So far from having any objection to this, he was delighted to see it, and he would encourage the hon. member for Grampound to go and tear the ministers to pieces [a laugh]
393
Alderman Heygate
said, that the ministers, in the opinions which they expressed, and the conduct which they proposed to adopt, neither consulted the interests of the country, nor agreed with those who usually supported them. The aristocracy and the landed interest, by whom all the measures of ministers were usually upheld, were, upon this occasion, wholly at variance with them. Every body out of doors was of a different opinion from them, and every one who spoke plainly, did not scruple to say that the people were to be sacrificed to a cold-blooded theory. Excepting the members of what might be called the Political Economy Club, there were no persons to be found who approved of ministers on this occasion. Every body else believed that the country was on the eve of a convulsion, and that the measures proposed were calculated to hasten it. By whom were the proceedings of ministers approved? Who supported and cheered their statements? Not those who Bat beside them, and who were usually the most vehement of their cheerers; but those who, at other times, were their bitterest opponents. The fact could not be disputed, that the country was reduced to a degree of suffering wholly unprecedented. Ministers might carry the measures which they proposed in that House, but he defied them to carry them into effect generally. Nothing could be more disgraceful than the want of a proper circulating medium. Exchequer-bills were at a discount of 20
s.,
394
Mr. Hume
wished that the worthy alderman, while he was abusing the system of political economy, had pointed out what particular part of the system he objected to. If the worthy alderman alluded to the measures adopted by ministers with respect to free trade, he could by no means agree with him. Those measures had met with the general approbation, not only of parliament, but of the country. He could not suppose the country would show such a want of good sense as to turn round at the present moment, and find fault with the operation of those measures. With respect to the present measures of government, he thought they were ill-timed; but ministers were placed in a situation of great difficulty, and it was hard to say what ought to be done. The worthy alderman complained of the principles of political economy; but he hoped that within his own domestic arrangements things were well conducted; that his expenditure did not exceed his income, and that he adopted the best means of providing for his own comfort and independence. If he did so, he acted upon the principles of political economy, which he so much abused; for just in the same sense were they applicable to the affairs of the state. It was not the fault of government that things were not on a proper footing. When they proposed a useful measure, in stepped the worthy alderman, and exclaimed against it. When they abstained from so doing, he equally censured them: so that it was impossible to know what he approved of, or condemned. Before he lavished his censure upon the system of political economy, he was bound to
395
Alderman Wood
was afraid, that the observations of his worthy brother alderman about the want of cheering would not have much weight with the cabinet; for if ministers did not get many cheers, they got what they liked much better, a vast majority. Although the present state of affairs was certainly very distressing, it was better to let matters go on without any legislative interference. An issue of Exchequer-bills under present circumstances would, he thought, produce no benefit, and be contrary to the established principles of political economy. The worthy alderman must have known that two great houses, intimately connected with foreign loans, had that day failed. Foreign stock, too, had fallen very low. Under these circumstances, an issue of Exchequer-bills, though it might afford some relief, could only do so at a loss of from 30 to 40 per cent. Although he differed from his worthy friend on this point, he admired his speech of last night; that was to say, he did not admire the whole of it, for it was too long; but some parts of it were well worthy of attention. His worthy friend had stated, that on a former occasion he had driven the right hon. Secretary for Foreign Affairs out of the House, by one of his speeches. His speech of last night had produced the same effect upon him. He could not stay to hear it, but he had voted with him.
Alderman Heygate
said, he had never meant it to be understood that he had actually driven the right hon. Secretary
396
Mr. Attwood
said, the worthy alderman who had just spoken (Wood) was of opinion, that it would be contrary to the established principles of political economy, for the government to adopt the recommendation of his hon. friend the member for Sudbury, and to interfere to relieve the embarrassments of the merchants by loans of Exchequer-bills on the security of goods. He would not dispute that point with the worthy alderman, but he entirely agreed with the hon. member for Montrose, that such a measure would greatly embarrass the government. As merchants borrowing such Exchequer-bills would carry them to the market for sale; but, in the present scarcity of Bank notes, no sale could be effected, except at a great depreciation. Exchequer-bills were now at a discount of 20
s.
397
398
Mr. Pearse
said, he concluded that, when the hon. member for Callington recommended the Bank to pursue the course which he pointed out, he imagined that they had not at their disposal the means of assisting the distresses of the country, and of performing their duty to the public. If the hon. member entertained any such idea, he could assure him it was completely erroneous. Within the last six weeks the Bank had, in the most unlimited manner, assisted in relieving the distresses of the country, in so far as they had been brought to their knowledge. They still continued to feel the same desire to assist the mercantile interest. At the present moment, the discount of merchants' paper by the Bank was going on to the utmost possible extent, provided that paper was good. The tendency of the measures adopted by the Bank during the existing distress, had all along been, to afford the utmost facility, consistent with security, to the discounting of merchants' paper. But all the assistance which could be afforded by the Bank was not sufficient to meet the public difficulties. There was a class of merchants possessing great property, who yet were not in a situation to present bills to be discounted. To this class accommodation might be granted in the best manner, as had been done on former occasions. He agreed with the chancellor of the Exchequer, that the measure to which he now alluded should not be too frequently adopted. It should only be resorted to in extreme cases, and not when individuals might have been induced to enter upon extravagant speculations, in the hope of obtaining assistance from that very measure. He thought, however, that the difficulties of the present period formed a case which would authorize the adoption of the measure in question. It was notorious, that, at the present moment, merchants of the
399
Mr. W. Smith
said, it had been observed, that, because the men now in difficulties were merchants, they deserved every assistance that could be afforded them. Now he was not convinced of the justice of that argument. He did not see why, because men expended their capital in the purchase of goods, they were therefore entitled to relief in a greater degree than any other men who expended their capital in a different manner. It had been said, that it was the duty of the government to afford relief to them, but he thought that the cause of the distress should be first inquired into; if that distress bad arisen from the act of the go-
400
Mr. Huskisson
observed, that, as the debate had been exclusively confined to that part of the House which considered itself purely practical in the matter in question, he would not travel out of the line which had been pursued, after the example of the hon. member for Coventry, who had entered largely into the consideration of general merits. He begged to call the attention of the House to the situation in which the question had been placed by the great practical authorities who had addressed themselves to the government
401
402
Mr. Attwood,
in explanation, said, he had been entirely misunderstood. What he had said was, that for the Bank to lend money upon goods, in an emergency such as the present, was
not
Mr. Huskisson
begged pardon of the hon. member, but he had understood him to say, that if government could not take goods, the Bank might; but that the measure was contrary to political economy. Whether or not it was contrary to political economy, there was a more practical objection to it; such a proceeding was contrary to their charter; the Bank could not deal in goods, nor lend money upon goods. The question then was, what could be done to supply a more abundant circulation? Now, if there was one of the principles of the committee of 1819 in which all agreed, it was this—that if a circulation was furnished by bank notes to supply the exigencies of commerce, and the wants of the country, it was immaterial whether it was supported on the credit of one species of security or another. In other words, it was immaterial whether the number of bills of exchange was greater in proportion to government securities, or
vice versâ.
403
Mr. Ellice
said, that the commercial world was now in a complete state of disorganization, and that the evils which had taken place in London were rapidly extending themselves all over the country, which, unless some relief was speedily
404
405
Mr. Pearse
complained of the manner in which the Bank had been spoken of on former occasions, and observed, that their conduct had not arisen from a desire of profit, but had been caused by the particular circumstances by which they were surrounded.
The report was then brought up. On the motion that it be read,
Mr. T. Wilson
observed, that the temporary aid by an increase of bank paper, would not afford relief to all those who were in need of it. If ministers would now declare, that they would grant relief in the old way, that declaration, circulated throughout the country by the press tomorrow, would revive confidence. The assurance of relief was almost all that was wanted.
On the report being read,
Mr. Attwood
said, he had heard with surprise the assertion of the right hon. gentleman (Mr. Huskisson), that the "Bank of England were prohibited by their charter from lending money on goods. The confidence with which that erroneous assertion was made, had induced him to refer to the charter of the Bank up stairs. It contained no such prohibition. He would, for the satisfaction of the right hon. gentleman, in his own justification, read to the House a clause in the charter which distinctly recognized the power of the Bank to lend money on goods and commodities of whatever kind.
406
On the first resolution being read a second time,
Mr. Hudson Gurney
rose, for the purpose of proposing the amendment which he had moved on the preceding evening, in the committee; namely, to omit the words "or by the Bank of England;" the object being to retain in circulation the one and-two pound Bank of England notes, in order to prevent a total want of circulating medium in those districts where either the bankers had failed, or where the bankers notes should have been withdrawn. The hon. member said, he could not sit down without expressing his entire concurrence with every thing that had been stated by the honourable Bank director opposite (Mr. Pearse). He must say, that ever since he (Mr. G.) had had the honour of a seat in that House, the Bank of England had been most injuriously, he might say, most shamefully treated. Had it not been for the manner in which the Bank had come forward, and the measures they had taken, during the last six weeks, the country would have been in a state of indescribable embarrassment.
Mr. Wodehouse
said, he was satisfied with the amendment proposed by his hon. friend, the member for Newton. There was at present a great and alarming evil weighing on the country. Merchants were not able to keep their engagements, and any measures which gave us safety, would be a positive blessing. It was the duty of the legislature, under such circumstances, not to waste their time in idle and fastidious cavilling, but to adopt speedy and efficient measures. The only objection to it, he believed, grew out of the scrupulousness of gentlemen as to parliamentary consistency; but, though he had as great a regard for parliamentary consistency as any man, when founded on conviction, yet he thought it was not inconsistent, in some cases, for parliament to retrace its steps. He had sat in two small minorities on the subject of Mr. Peel's bill, and he was persuaded that measure had never been adequately and completely understood. He thought it would be no imputation on the consistency of parliament to reconsider that measure. He wished not to be understood as stating this with any view of opposing ministers. He was ready to give them all the support in his power, to enable them to relieve the country from its present embarrassments. He saw a motion announced for
407
The gallery was then cleared for a division, but none took place, the amendment being negatived, and the original resolution agreed to by the House.
HOUSE OF LORDS.
Wednesday, February 15, 1826.
POOR LAWS IN IRELAND.
The Earl of Darnley
alluded to a misunderstanding of what he had said a few days ago concerning the extension of the poor laws to Ireland, when a noble earl, not then in his place, had brought the state of that country under their lordships' consideration. What he meant was, that he should be sorry if the system of the poor laws, or rather of the abuses of the poor law system of this country, were transferred to Ireland, since they could produce only calamitous results. On the other hand, he thought it was not to be tolerated that, in a country boasting of civilization, it should be possible for individuals to die from actual want; yet he had read of a person dying in the streets of Dublin from starvation. He did not himself mean to bring the subject before their lordships, because there was a noble lord, not then in his place (lord Carberry), who had already moved for certain papers on the subject, and had pledged himself to bring it before their lordships. But if that noble lord did not, he was so impressed with the importance of the subject, that after the holidays he would call their lordships' attention to it. He knew that there were great difficulties in the way; that the poverty of the people was not to be cured by charity; that the only legitimate mode of relieving them was by finding them employment; but he thought it was worthy of their lordships' attention to consider whether or not some modified system might not be practicable.
The Earl of Limerick
rose to express his astonishment that any noble lord should stir a subject fraught with such mischievous consequences as a proposition
408
The Earl of Darnley
explained, what he meant to state was, that he thought it would be worth their lordships' while to consider whether some modified provision might not be made for the poor of Ireland in certain cases.
409
HOUSE OF COMMONS.
Wednesday, February 15, 1826.
USURY LAWS REPEAL BILL.
Mr. Serjeant Onslow
rose to move for leave to bring in a bill to repeal the Usury Laws. After the repeated explanations he had given, upon former occasions, of his views upon this subject, it would be unpardonable were he now to occupy the time of the House in stating, he said, the reasons upon which his proposed plan was formed. He must, however, express his very sincere regret, that the House rejected his bill last session, because he was certain that, if they had allowed it to pass into a law, the late panic and its attendant distress, would have been much mitigated, and, in some of the great manufacturing districts, many difficulties would have been removed which were now severely felt. He could prove that, in many instances, more than 100 per cent had been given for money in the city of London, notwithstanding the operation of the usury laws. It was said on a former occasion, that his bill would injure the landed interest. He denied that this would be its effect; on the contrary, it would materially serve that important class. He concluded by moving for leave to bring in a bill "to repeal the laws which prohibit the taking of interest for money, or limit the rate thereof."
Mr. Davenport
renewed his opposition to the measure, and would continue to resist it so long as he had a seat in that House. He saw no necessity for giving leave, year after year, to bring in a bill, which, in a future stage, they were determined to reject. His opposition was not out of discourtesy to the learned Serjeant, but to shorten the journey of this bill. His firm belief was, that nothing could be devised more mischievous for the landed interest than the proposed measure. It would necessarily disturb the whole mortgage system, affecting the property of the kingdom, and substitute a wild theory in the room of practical experience. He called upon the government to take a part in stopping the eagerness for introducing such bills, and to look to themselves in time, before a perseverance in error brought ruin upon the country.
Mr. Bright
was glad that the bill was thus early opposed. It was most extraordinary, that ministers should be absent from the House when such a discussion was coming on. The bill could not be a matter of indifference to them, with re-
410
Mr. C. Grant
said, that his right hon. friend, the President of the Board of Trade, would have attended, had he not been confined to his house by indisposition.
Mr. Irving
said, that the bill would not have the injurious effect which some gentlemen apprehended. On the contrary, had it been in operation during the late crisis, the sacrifices made by individuals would have been much lighter than they unfortunately had been; and the House would not have heard of such enormous sums lost in the attempt to maintain the credit of individuals. He, for one, thought that in place of the present crisis affecting the introduction of such a bill, it was rather in favour of its justice and policy. At the same time he was ready to admit that there were a variety of considerations to be well weighed before it passed into a law. He certainly was prepared to vote for bringing in of the measure, and having it amply debated; the House would not take a stand against it in that early stage.
Mr. Benett
observed, that it was often necessary for those who were in want of money to borrow it at an extravagant rate, purely in consequence of these usury laws. By the repeal of those laws, the security for fair and liberal dealing in the transactions of borrowing and lending would be much increased. Persons of the most honourable characters would not then be deterred from coming into the market as lenders, and in this the borrowers would find their advantage. The proposed measure should have his cordial support.
Mr. Sykes
thought that his learned friend
411
in limine.
Mr. R. Gordon
said, he must continue to oppose this bill. It had been said, that it was unusual to oppose the bringing in of a bill. So it might be, were it a new measure; but this was the identical bill which they had already, year after year, rejected. Why, therefore, allow their time to be further taken up with unavailing discussion? It was a waste of time to permit the preliminary stages of a bill, which they knew would, on the second reading, be rejected. If ministers chose to adopt the measure, and rest it on their own responsibility, then they ought to permit the bill to be brought in; but,
412
Mr. Wodehouse
was decidedly opposed to the bill, because he thought it impossible to calculate the effect which it might have upon the landed interest. His objection was, however, principally to the time of introducing the measure; and it was an additional instance of the reckless spirit of experiment which prevailed, and which had entailed already so much mischief on the community.
Colonel Davies
said, he would suggest a mode by which the objections of the country gentlemen to the repeal of these laws might be obviated. If they were so enamoured of the usury laws, as to prefer granting annuities at a most extravagant rate, to the borrowing of money on reasonable terms, let a clause be introduced into the bill, excluding the country gentlemen from its operation. If they were so desirous of raising money on annuities, at 15 per cent, rather than borrow at a little more than 5 per cent, let them be permitted to do so.
Mr. Monck
adverted to instances in which money might have been borrowed at little more than 5 per cent, but the law opposing this, the parties were reduced to the necessity of raising money by the sale of their goods, at a ruinously low rate. This would be a common occurrence, as long as these absurd laws remained upon the statute-book. He agreed, however, that the landed and trading portions of the community stood in different situations, and that the repeal of the usury laws might affect the one interest, in a different manner from that in which it would operate on the other. Money on mortgages was borrowed for a length of time; but a tradesman might want a loan for two months, and for that loan it might be worth his while to give a high consideration. The borrowers and lenders in these cases had different objects; and why should they have one measure for credit and security. If money could be raised at 5 per cent on the best landed security, how could those, who had only personal security to offer, expect to raise money
413
Mr. John Smith
said, that since the discussion of this bill last session, much light had been thrown upon the subject. The House was aware of the panic in the money market last December, and he could state, of his own personal knowledge, the enormous sum which had been paid for pecuniary loans. He knew an instance in which, for a very large sum, no less than 75 per cent had been paid. What good purpose could the usury laws serve, when, in spite of those laws, money was, in cases of necessity, raised at such an immoderate rate. He thought the learned serjeant deserved the thanks of the country for his perseverance in this most important measure.
Mr. Wynn
gave his entire support to the proposed bill; and, in doing so, he felt that, instead of injuriously interfering with the landed interest, he was conferring a boon upon that body. He had known many instances of the bad effect of the usury laws, and particularly one about ten years ago, when a person, possessing a large landed property, had a mortgage which was standing for thirty years. The security was for 40,000
l.
l.
414
Mr. Calcraft
said, that when government itself gave 6 or 7 per cent for money, it was not surprising if private individuals sometimes found it difficult to borrow at 5 per cent. With respect to the proposed bill, if ministers would take upon themselves the responsibility of supporting it, he would not oppose its introduction; but, if it was to be considered merely as the measure of an individual, teazing the House with the discussion, session after session, then he would undoubtedly oppose it
in limine.
415
l.
Mr. Secretary Peel
said, that as he was not present at the commencement of the discussion, he was but imperfectly qualified, if qualified under any circumstances, to give an opinion upon the measure. That it was one which was entitled to serious consideration, he readily acknowledged; and all must feel that the manner in which it had been disposed of last session afforded no satisfactory proof of the sense of the House upon it. His right hon. friend, the chancellor of the Exchequer, had been too much engaged on important matters connected with the state of the country, to allow him to give the subject that attention which it required. He hoped, therefore, that the learned gentleman would postpone the measure for a short period, in order allow his right hon. friend time for its consideration. On the
416
Mr. Calcraft
said, that after what had fallen from the right hon. gentleman, he would withdraw his opposition to the introduction of the measure.
Leave was given to bring in the bill.
BUBBLE ACT.
Mr. Hobhouse
rose for the purpose of putting a question to the attorney-general. It was in the recollection of the House, that towards the close of the last session, the learned gentleman introduced a bill, which was subsequently passed, for the purpose of repealing the act commonly called the "Bubble Act." At that time it was intimated, that a measure would be introduced by a learned lord in the other House, which would strike at the root of fraudulent transactions in the formation of companies. The question which he wished to ask was, whether it was in the contemplation of his majesty's ministers, or the law officers of the Crown, to introduce any such measure in the present session? There was a very uneasy sensation on the subject of the fraudulent transactions of the last year, and fears were entertained that similar attempts might again be made. He, therefore, was anxious to know whether any measure would be introduced, by which, if the public did not receive indemnity for the past, they might at least have security for the future.
The Attorney-General
said, he was not aware that any such measure was in contemplation, nor did he think it was at alt necessary. As the law now stood, it was sufficient to reach any fraudulent attempts, by any number of persons forming themselves into illegal companies. If the fact of any fraudulent attempts could be proved against any individuals, the law as it stood, was sufficient to reach and punish them, without the aid of any new enactment.
EXCHEQUER BILLS.
The House having resolved itself into a committee of
417
Herries
l.
Mr. Hume
begged to ask, whether it was the intention of government to leave the Bank to make purchases of these Exchequer-bills, as they had hitherto done; and whether they were, at one time, by a great over-issue, and, at another, by restraining that issue, to put at hazard the property of Englishmen, whenever they thought fit? If men had been guilty of some of the mad speculations and improvident sacrifices attributed to them, let them take their fate; but let not: the innocent be confounded with the guilty. It would require strong proofs to satisfy the minds of the public, that the Bank of England had not, by purchasing immense quantities of Exchequer-bills at one time, and issuing them out in equally immense quantities at another, aggravated the late unfortunate panic. He had strong objections to a power remaining in the hands of any set of men to raise and sink the market at their pleasure, from five to ten per cent. Every country banker, too, should be compelled, four times in the year, to furnish an account of all his issues in the preceding quarter. Such a proceeding would, in some measure, be a check upon the over-issue which had been the subject of complaint. They ought also to know the amount of all the Exchequer-bills which had been purchased by the Bank of England, that they might discover, if possible, the reason why Exchequer-bills had been, at one time, at from 35
s.
s.
Mr. Maberly
thought there would be but little security to the holders of Exchequer-bills, until the public were made better acquainted with the nature of the Bank transactions with government, and with their dealing in those bills, than they were at present. There were instances in which the Bank had gone into the market and made purchases, so as to raise the value of those bills 20
s.
418
Mr. Irving
alluded to the purchase of Exchequer-bills by the Bank, and contended that the directors were justified in those purchases. If the circulating medium was not sufficient for the wants of the country, no injury was done by the purchase of those bills. If it was too much, why should not the Bank sell? The object of mercantile men was to procure discounts for short periods, and it was of little consequence to them whether those discounts were afforded them from an issue of Exchequer-bills, or a deposit of bullion. If the Bank had the means of purchasing Exchequer-bills, he saw no reason why they should be prevented. The events which had taken place had, in many parts of the country, left the people without any means of barter. If government would send down 3 or 400,000
l.
Mr. Bright
thought ministers should have directed more of their attention to the condition of the country in 1793. If they had compared it with the present, they would have seen that the two were nearly similar; they would also have seen that the remedy adopted by government at that period had had a considerable effect in relieving the distress. Why, then, should not they have recourse to the same means of averting the evil? If the issue of Exchequer-bills in 1793 had been productive of such beneficial effects, what was there to prevent a similar issue of them now from operating in the same way? The situation of the country was so peculiar, that it would afford an ample justification to government for deviating a little from any stern principle which they might have formed for the guidance of their proceedings on ordinary occasions. It was absolutely necessary that some plan should be devised for supplying the provinces with a circulating medium. If 300,000
l.
419
Mr. Pearse
said, it was the duty of the Bank to be cautious how they interfered with prices; and, as to Exchequer-bills, they ought not to deal in them, unless there was a necessity; but, when that necessity arose, it was unbecoming the hon. member for Aberdeen to make repeated attacks on the Bank. These were times when men ought rather to endeavour to remove impressions which affected public confidence than encourage them. An advance of money must come sooner or later from the government, and the sooner the better. He was sorry that ministers had not been prevailed upon to listen to the application that had been made to them; for he was sure that sooner or later the assistance applied for must be granted.
Mr. Hume
said, he had not blamed the Bank for what they had done. What he had complained of was, that the Bank had the power at will of raising the value of every man's property, by dealing in Exchequer-bills; and he had made the observation that the House might be able to ascertain the extent of the dealings of the Bank, and their effect on prices. It was no assertion of his, but a general opinion in the city, that, during the recent distress, the interference of the Bank in the money market had produced a very sensible effect; and, until the necessary infomation was laid before the House, he must abstain from giving praise where he was not sure it was due. Indeed, he feared there had been much irregularity in the dealings of the Bank. It had been very justly observed by the late director, Mr. Ricardo, that it was the duty of the Bank Directors to make the best bargain they could with the government for the proprietors. The evils caused by the fluctuation in the value of Exchequer-bills, should be ascribed to the government, and not to the Bank. If the government had no debt, there would be no need of Exchequer-bills. It was owing to this, that the right hon. gentleman, though he admitted the present disastrous situation of the country, did not dare to sanction the issuing of even 500,000
l.
420
Mr. Irving
said, he should wish to know, if Exchequer-bills were not issued, how the Bank of England were to give a sufficient supply of notes? Perhaps it would be answered, by discounting mercantile bills; but it was not at all times that these discounts were required. In December and January last there was a considerable portion of mercantile bills presented to the Bank to be discounted; but of late there had been so little trade, that, comparatively speaking, few discounts were wanted. In his opinion, the buying and selling of stock contributed much more to the fluctuations in the value of property than any traffic in Exchequer-bills. He considered that the best and most convenient issue of the Bank rested on Exchequer-bills. They afforded a much more regular and certain channel through which Bank issues might be supplied than any other. He was sorry that ministers had treated so lightly the application which had been made to them; for ultimately they would be compelled to have recourse to the measure suggested. The salvation of the country depended upon it. It had been urged, that the refusal was necessary to check further speculations. This, in the present situation of the country, was an objection too frivolous to require an answer.
Mr. Maberly
was of opinion, that if any plan was attempted for relieving the present distress which should cause the exchanges to turn against us, the distress would be very considerably aggravated. The government were placed in a very difficult situation. It must be recollected that they had already a debt of 30,000,000
l.
Mr. Hume
said, that when it was considered that the Bank had 18,000,000
l.
421
Mr. C. Grant
said, he was astonished to hear an hon. member declare that the ministers had treated this momentous subject with levity. There was one consolation in the midst of all their difficulties, namely, that even the gentlemen who habitually opposed the government, had clone justice to the feelings of his right hon. friend the chancellor of the Exchequer; and he was persuaded that no man, who investigated the subject dispassionately, could doubt, that, if the government had acted erroneously, it at least proceeded from a strong desire to render that assistance which their feelings prompted them to render, but which their public station prevented them from carrying into execution. They were assailed on all sides by devices and projects for relieving the public distresses. The hon. member for Bristol had said, that the ministers ought not to adhere to principles; but he could assure that hon. member, that if ministers had hearkened to the various counsels offered them, there was nothing in principles or morals from which they must not depart, or a single principle of policy which they must not have subverted. With respect to the effect of issuing Exchequer-bills, it appeared to him to be of little importance to the public how the Bank notes found their way into the market, so that they secured an adequate circulating medium.
Mr. T. Wilson
was of opinion, that an issue of Exchequer-bills by government, would have proved more beneficial than any relief which could be granted by the Bank. It had been observed, that the Bank should be liberal in their discounts; but the parties to whom the Bank were in
422
Mr. Hutchinson
was desirous that justice should be done to all parties, and particularly to the government, for their conduct in the recent transact ions. Though there might be a difference of opinion as to the merits of many of the measures proposed by government, he thought that there could be no difference of opinion upon this point—that ministers had evinced every anxiety to administer relief to the existing distress. He was of opinion, that from their past conduct the country might be confident that ministers would set their shoulders to the wheel to rescue the country from its present unfortunate situation. He thought, however, that the system of Government was too expensive, and that it was the duty of parliament to make them diminish it.
Sir F. Blake
commended the conduct of government. Their principles of free trade particularly entitled them to the thanks of the country, and he hoped they would not, by any complaints or representations, be induced to depart from them.
Mr. Herries
said, that one observation had fallen from an hon. friend of his, which he fell it necessary to notice. His hon. friend had stated, that the government had received lightly the representations of distress which had been made to it. Now, he was sure that no solicitations had ever been received with greater attention than those which had recently been made to government; and if the noble lord at the head of the Treasury, and the chancellor of the Exchequer had not complied with the requests made to them, it was not without giving to them a full and patient examination, nor without being convinced that they ought not, for public reasons, to be acceded to. His hon. friend had given it as his opinion, that the large purchase of Exchequer-bills, which had taken place
423
The resolution was agreed to.
HOUSE OF COMMONS.
Thursday, February 16, 1826.
CHURCH RATES IN IRELAND.
Sir John Newport
rose, in pursuance of notice, to propose a series of resolutions regarding the levy of Church-rates in Ireland. It was in the recollection of the House, that he had last year called their attention to the manner in which the Irish parochial rates were collected, and to the abuses which, in every part of their details, were so apparent. Having been on that occasion so fortunate as to obtain almost the unanimous assent of the House to the bill which he had introduced, he was afterwards much surprised to find, that, in another House, the principal clauses were struck out which regulated the adequate control of the local expenditure.
424
l.
l.
l.
l.
l.
l.
l.
l.
425
l.
l.
l.
l.
l.
Lord Althorp
was anxious, before the subject was further discussed, to obtain
426
Mr. Goulburn
professed his readiness to give the information required by the noble lord, before he made any observation's upon the motion of the right hon. baronet. He would State generally the measures which his majesty's ministers intended to introduce in the course of the present session, arising out of the labours of last year's committee; and he would state them in the order of their notice by the committee. With respect to the mode of collecting tithes, it was not their intention to submit any distinct proposition; and for this reason—that the Tithe-composition bill had been, within the last year, brought into general operation in Ireland, and had produced effects not merely equal, but far surpassing his most sanguine anticipations. It was, therefore, intended to allow that measure to work on its due course, and remedy existing evils, and not to interfere with it, by any new measure. A year ago there had been effected only 259 tithe compositions; but, since the last session, he was happy to say, the number had increased to 676; being about one-fourth of all the parishes in the sister kingdom. The benefits of this measure were not confined to the parishes in which it was brought into action, but extended to their vicinity, and led to the extension of amicable compositions. One fact would show strongly the operation of the bill. The assistant barrister for the county of Cork had informed him that the business of his court had declined one-half, owing to the absence of tithe causes. The next measure in order, but he would revert to it last, was the mode of collecting and applying the church rates, and the constitution of vestries. Then followed the constitution and proceedings of the manorial courts. This subject had been under the consideration of the lord lieutenant, and a measure was about to be introduced, to correct the practices of
427
428
Sir R. H. Inglis
began by stating that, the right hon. baronet had, in substance, produced the same cases, and repeated the same charges, which he brought forwards last session against the general system of the administration of the church-rates in Ireland. Though, at that time, he could not help doubting the inferences, he was not then prepared to deny, or even to explain, the facts upon which the right hon. baronet raised them. Since that period, he had examined the returns before the House; even now, however, he would not follow the right hon. baronet in all the details of the cases which he had brought forward; but, before he sat down, he would, with the indulgence of the House, call their attention to some of them. He would begin, indeed, in the first place, by admitting, that there were considerable irregularities, perhaps even a violation of the law in its strict letter, in the expenditure of the church-rates in. Ireland; but this admission would not benefit the argument of the right hon. baronet, if the nature of the irregularities in question were regarded. He would quote from the documents on the table of the House, and particularly from the returns of the northern and more Protestant dioceses; he would begin with Derry, and, in that diocese, with the parish of Moville; there in one year the cess was 46
l.
l.
l.
l.
429
l.
l.
l.
s.
d.
l.
l.
s.
l.
s.
l.
l.
l.
l.
s.
l.
l.
430
l.
s.
d.
d.
d.
d
431
s.
s.
d.
d.
s
s.
Sir H. Parnell
adverted to the reformation which had been made, under the present Irish government, with respect to
432
Mr. Plunkett
said, he was disposed to give the right hon. baronet every information in his power. With respect to the bankrupt laws, he had consulted with the courts in Ireland, with the Lord
433
434
Mr. Abercromby
said, he wished to make a few observations on that part of the right hon. and learned gentleman's speech wherein he informed the House that he purposed conferring a great boon on Ireland, by extending the statute recently passed for amending the bankrupt laws here to that country. Now, he did not mean to say that that statute might not contain some useful provisions, but he believed those who praised it most were the members of the profession to which he had the honour to belong, and who had most profited by it. It had also been much lauded, and for a similar reason by the commissioners of bankrupts; but he felt it his duty to say, that he considered this enactment much more calculated to cause useless expense than to promote the interests of those who might have the misfortune to come under its operation; indeed he was somewhat surprised that no notice had as yet been given of bringing in a bill to remedy the defects which had been found to exist in that statute. He did not consider the objection which had been raised by the right hon. and learned gentleman to in-
435
Mr. Secretary Peel
said, that the learned gentleman laboured under a mistake in supposing that his right hon. friend, the Attorneys-general for Ireland, had expressed an opinion, that it was impossible to introduce into Ireland a measure of a similar tendency to that which he had the honour of submitting to parliament last session. Nothing would give him more pain than to find that that measure could not be applied to Ireland. Even something more beneficial might be done, than merely to consolidate the laws. Since he had entered the House, he had received from an hon. friend near him a remonstrance as to the operation of the bill, which gave him much satisfaction. His hon. friend had complained, that, such was the unfortunate operation of the measure, he had been actually summoned to serve on two special juries. Now, he was rejoiced to find, that in the working of this bill, all men, without distinction, were compelled to perform their duties to the public; and in this summons he found some information which might be usefully applied to Ireland; namely, that the parties would be fined for non-attendance, unless they made a reasonable excuse, and that the judges would be in court at ten o'clock. It would be well that the bill for Ireland should not follow too closely on the heels of the other; for, in the connecting of a bill which repealed seventy or eighty acts, imperfections would creep in, which, perhaps, one or two assizes would point out. The hon. baronet opposite had made some allusions to the appointment of lords lieutenants to counties in Ireland. Nothing, certainly, could be better in principle, than that there should be gradations between the chief magistrate and the most subordinate authorities. But then the amount of the benefit must depend on the manner in which the duties of the office should be executed. It might be made the greatest curse in individual counties; and he feared it would not be easy to find resident lords lieute-
436
Mr. Grattan
was of opinion, that the statement of the Attorney-general for Ireland had been quite gratifying, and hoped the resolution would be withdrawn. There had certainly been some most extraordinary instances of abuse. The evil was one of great magnitude, and the cause of its continuance was the want of some active resident individuals, who would expose abuses when they were committed. What would be most advantageous for Ireland would be, to devise some plan for the education of the peasantry. He had last session had the honour of proposing a measure for this purpose to the House, and he had been happy to hear a noble lord in the other House approve of that measure. Hon. gentlemen ought to be friendly to any plan which went to render the lower classes in Ireland more intelligent, and thereby prevent their emigrating in such numbers to this country, as to create a serious addition to the poor-rates.
Mr. Plunkett
disclaimed the idea of having said, that there was any inclination on his part not to extend the provisions of the jury-bill to Ireland, when a fit opportunity should arise. All he had said was, that the machinery of the bill, in its present state, was inapplicable to Ireland; but that, when experience had proved its utility, he should rejoice to see it adopted.
Mr. Hutchinson
quite concurred with his hon. friend, that the attention of members ought to be directed to the condition of the poor of Ireland. He, of course, did not mean to suggest any plan—certainly not the poor laws of England, at least not as they were abused. Such was the condition of the peasantry of Ireland, in the south and western parts, as to call for the immediate attention of parliament. He had witnessed a greater degree of misery and
437
Mr. Monck
said, that every person examined on the subject of the poor-laws, as applied to Ireland, was favourable to the experiment. Mr. Nimmo had stated to the committee, that there were a million mendicants and sturdy beggars, who were wandering over the country, and who, when unable to obtain a living by the offerings of charity or the plunder they continued to carry off in their lawless wanderings, resorted to their poorer but more industrious relatives, and extorted from them a portion of their hard earnings. Great objections had been made to the introduction of the poor-laws into Ireland, from the evils they had led to in this country. But, whatever those evils might be, they had not originated so much in the system of the laws as from the mode in which they were administered. What had been the state of the poor in this
438
Mr. R. Martin
said, he woul4 give his cordial assent to the proposition of the Attorney-general for Ireland; and he had no doubt that the measure he announced would prove as beneficial as any which that learned person had conferred on Ireland. His assent to the introduction of the bill, however, by no means prevented his voting for the proposition of the right hon. baronet. He gave entire credit to the statements laid before the House by that right hon. baronet; and could confidently declare, that nothing would be more likely to create great dissatisfaction in Ireland than a rejection of the resolutions. They were, indeed, so closely connected with the measure of the Attorney-general for Ireland, that they might almost form the preamble of his bill. He did not think it advisable to introduce the poor-rates into Ireland, but he thought something ought to be done for the poor of that country, and that no person was so fit for introducing a measure of relief as the son of the lamented Henry Grattan, who used to say, that "every naked man was an armed host."
Sir John Newport
in reply, observed, that his object was to get the resolutions placed on the Journals. Within the last few years, he had over and over again been opposed on various questions by ministers; and, though his recommendation had been slighted, or wholly disregarded, yet, by getting his resolutions placed on the Journals, he had often had the satisfaction of seeing measures which had been contemptuously rejected in one year, adopted the very next. With the hope of a similar result, he would now press his motion. He denied the imputations thrown out against him by the hon. member for Dundalk, of either acting from sinister motives, or of having selected particular cases. He had no hostility to the Established Church; his ob-
439
Sir R. Inglis
explained. His objections had reference to an attempt of some persons to place the control of the church-rate in a lay tribunal.
The resolutions were negatived without a division; and the amendment agreed to.
TOLLS AND CUSTOMS AT FAIRS AND
Mr. Spring Rice,
after a few observations respecting the evils to which the present system of collecting Tolls and Customs in Ireland gave rise, moved for the purpose of remedying those evils, "That an humble address be presented to his majesty, praying that he would be graciously pleased to give directions that a commission should issue to inquire into the Tolls and Customs collected in Fairs, Markets, and Sea Ports in Ireland."
Mr. Goulburn
said, that the hon. gentleman was under a misapprehension as to an intention on the part of government to protect or support any abuses in the collection of the toils or customs of Ireland. On the contrary, if extensive evils did exist, and he would not deny that there were some, government would be disposed to remedy them. Indeed, he had assured the hon. gentleman, at the commencement of the session, when he was apprized of his intention to make this motion, that the subject had not escaped the notice of the Irish government, and that he was unwilling to preclude any inquiry that might lead to practical benefit. At the same time, the subject was surrounded with difficulty. There were in Ireland, as there were in this country, many markets and towns invested by royal prerogative, with a right of levying certain tolls and duties. Now, that was a right with which the legislature ought to be cautious in interfering. Wherever duties, even moderate duties, were levied, it could not be denied, that those duties operated as a tax upon the commodities of whatever town or market these commodities were brought into to be disposed of. So far they
440
441
l.
442
Mr. Denis Browne
remarked, that the proposed inquiry would last for ever, if they examined every man who paid toll in Ireland, as a custom was placed on all articles sold at fairs. He did not think that there was any ground of complaint, as the matter was managed very regularly, the toll-levier being obliged to furnish receipts for the tolls he took. If he was guilty of exaction, the subject might be investigated at the sessions, where the patent was rigorously examined; and there was also an appeal from the sessions to the judge in circuit. He had observed that commissions of inquiry into Irish matters were very excellent things. If there was to be one appointed on the present occasion, he was sure it would be a never-ending one. He had had forty-three years' experience, and he therefore hoped that he should be made one of the commissioners, being very sure that it would turn out to be a very good thing. The tolls of Ireland were a disease, but a cure was often worse than the disease itself. Gentlemen might judge of the expense of such a commission, when they reflected on the expenses of the witnesses who had come from Ireland to give their evidence before the committee into the state of Ireland. He had lived long enough to hear of many such commissions. He had heard when each of them had begun, but he seldom heard when they ended. They were generally very snug things. He should like to be appointed to one; and he hoped he had put in his claim in time [a laugh].
Sir H. Parell
said, it was to very little purpose that any legal remedy existed in Ireland against the exactions of the customs gatherers, as the poor could not resort to it, for obvious reasons, and the poor were the only sufferers by such exactions. He remembered an instance at Mary borough, where a double illegality had been practised; in the first place, the article taxed was exempted from toll; and in the second, the party levying the tax had no authority to do so. In Ireland, unfortunately, there was no "village Hampden" to step forward and obtain redress for the injured peasant. What was most provoking of all, however, was, that the money derived from tolls was not
443
Mr. Secretary Peel
said, that the hon. mover had not produced a single instance in which the laws, when put into operation, had failed to effect the desired remedy. If he had even done this, it would have amounted to a good ground for making some alteration in the law; but it would not amount to a reason for appointing a commission. The labours of such a commission would be infinite. Surely the hon. mover's ideas could never go to the extent of imagining, that a compensation should be given to persons for the value of the tolls which he wished to regulate or suppress. If that principle were adopted, it ought also to be applied to this country. If a commission were appointed for Ireland, it ought also to extend its labours to England; for an equal ground of investigation extended to both countries. The extent of the present proposition went to this absurd length, that this country was to be taxed for removing that evil from Ireland which was to be continued upon herself. If a commission were to be appointed for Ireland, he did not see why the inquiry ought not to be extended to the duke of Bedford's tolls in Covent-Garden. Every possible facility ought to be given to inquire into the legality of the tolls exacted, and to resist the imposition of them, if illegal. If the Statutes were defective, they might be improved; but he could not consent to supersede the ordinary operation of the law, by the appointment of a commission, the duties of which would be endless.
Sir J. Newport
said, that the present state of the law was inadequate to afford redress to those whom it was meant to protect. Who were the parties in the present question? Who were the oppressed, and what the condition of the oppressor? The toll rights were in the hands either of corporate bodies, or of rich and powerful individuals. To tell the poor of Ireland that, to obtain redress, it was necessary for them to enter into a legal contest with corporate bodies, or with wealthy individuals, was to tell them, that they had no remedy at all. The cost of contest would be ruinous to the peasant; but it would be contemptible to the other party. He knew cases in Ireland where illegal impositions were enforced upon the poor,
444
Mr. Plunkett
wished briefly to explain to the House, the nature and degree of the resistance which he meant to offer to the hon. mover Whether that hon. gentleman's opinions of the extent of the evil, were well founded, he had great reasons to doubt. From his official situation, all complaints, if they were material, would naturally meet his ear; but the complaints which had been made that evening to the House, had previously been unknown to him. If the tolls levied in the Irish markets were, as had been stated, so excessive as to amount to 5 per cent on the articles sold, it would amount, not only to a grievous tax upon the poor, but to a most mischievous imposition on the country gentlemen, out of whose pockets this money must eventually come; and, for their own sakes, they would never tamely do it. He did not believe the statements as to the extent of
445
"Village Hampden, that with dauntless breast
The little tyrant of his field withstood,"
l.
l.
446
Mr. M. Fitzgerald
agreed, that the consideration of buying up these tolls would be stopped in limine by the immense amount of the purchase money. If the Attorney-general for Ireland were really so ignorant as he stated himself to be, of the evils complained of, it only proved that the poverty and misery of the poor Irish were so extreme, that their grievances had not reached the government. The impositions complained of, were levied in despite of the statute and common law. He had never been in any town of Ireland, in which he had not heard of numerous instances of oppression, committed in open and insolent violation of the law. He begged to deprecate the remedy proposed by his right hon. friend, who found the existing laws sufficient, and recommended recourse being had to the attorney of the hamlet. There was nothing he deprecated more than this. He would rather leave the people subject to the toll, than put them into the hands of the attorney. Too many of the evils of Ireland arose from the injudicious advice which gentlemen of that profession gave to both sides. His countrymen, much as they loved litigation, had discretion enough never to go to law with corporate bodies and toll-gatherers. The remedy at law, of which so much had been said, was not available to the people. He knew cases in which tolls were levied, contrary to law. There were laws to exempt linen from every species of toll; and the trustees of the linen board knew that in the south and west of Ireland tolls were levied on articles employed in the manufacture of linen. What was worse still, the power of levying tolls was exercised to promote frauds. It had been proved before him, as a magistrate, that a toll gatherer asserting his right to examine articles, had, under the influence of a bribe, allowed bad articles to pass, and thus assisted to impose on the public. This instance of flagrant abuse shewed how incompetent individuals must be to resist improper charges. The extent of the grievance, and the impossibility of
447
Sir John Bridges
denied, that there was in Ireland one law for the rich and another for the poor. Such a statement going forth to the public uncontradicted, would do a great deal of mischief.
Sir John Newport
explained. He did not say that there was one law for the rich and another for the poor; but he had said, that when the law was so expensive that its remedies could not be obtained by the poor, it was the same as if the law had no existence. There was not one law for the rich and another for the poor; but in practice, though not in statutory regulation, the poor could not avail themselves of the law.
448
Mr. R. Martin
felt himself called upon to declare, that in the county which he represented, atrocious abases prevailed in the collection of tolls. It was a general subject of complaint. They were gross in the town of Tuam; but in the town of Galway itself, they were greatest of all. There never was any thing equal to the atrocity of the abuses there in the mode of collecting tolls. In proof of this statement, he might appeal to his colleague (Mr. Daly). The abuses, too, were carried on by the corporation. These abuses existed to such a degree, that the value of land was reduced 3
s.
s.
Mr. Daly
said, that with regard to what had fallen from the last speaker, respecting the corporation of Gafway, he was ready to give it the most decided contradiction."
Mr. Martin.
Do you?
449
Mr. Daly.
I do. I give it the most decided contradiction. The tolls are collected in Galway according to the strict letter of the law. The hon. gentleman says that I was defendant in a Chancery suit.
Mr. Martin.
I do say so.
The Speaker.
I trust the hon. member will not place me a second time in the disagreeable situation of calling him to order.
Mr. Martin.
I humbly and most penitentially ask pardon of you, Sir, if I am out of order. To the House I am ready to offer the most humble apology.
Mr. Daly
proceeded. It had been said that he was defendant in a suit in Chancery, in which an illegal exaction of tolls was the question to be tried. It was not true. [A cry of "Order."] He begged pardon: he meant merely to say, that the statement was not correct, without intending any thing unparliamentary. He had, indeed, been made defendant in a suit, for the purpose of putting him to expense; but upon his making affidavit that he never, directly or indirectly, received a penny of the tolls that were the subject of litigation, he was discharged by the court from any further connection with the proceedings. This was not the first or second time he had been brought before the House in a similar manner. He could stand up in his place, and defy the hon. gentleman, or the world, to say that he ever received one farthing of the public money in any way. He could have no interest in the collection of tolls in Galway. He had, at present, a suit depending in Chancery, to determine whether he 'was free of the corporation or not; but with respect to an illegal exaction of tolls, he would stake his character that there was no such thing. Tolls, no doubt, were collected; but it was done according to law. The assistant barrister of Galway was a man of the highest honour, and was incapable of deciding in a way inconsistent with justice; and the right might be tried for a few shillings. How was it, then, that complaints of this nature did not come before the sessions? He did not mean to deny that the thing was a grievance; but, as long as the law permitted it, the toll would very naturally be taken.
Mr. Martin
said, he put it to the House, whether he had charged the hon. member with receiving money. He had merely said, that illegal tolls were taken at Galway; and he said it without intending to
450
Mr. Spring Rice then withdrew his motion, with an understanding, that a select committee would be acceded to, with limited powers, to ascertain whether any and what remedy can be applied to the existing evils, without trenching upon private rights.
HOUSE OF LORDS.
Friday, February 17, 1826.
BANK CHARTER AMENDMENT BILL.
The order of the day being read,
The Earl of Liverpool
rose, pursuant to notice, to move the second reading of the bill entitled "An act for the better regulating copartnerships of certain bankers in England, and for amending an act, passed in the 39th and 40th years of the reign of his late majesty king George 3rd, entitled an act for establishing an agreement with the governor and company of the Bank of England," &c. He believed it would be most convenient for the discussion to call their lordships' attention to the different branches of the subject, in order fully to explain the measures which his majesty's government had thought it right to adopt under the present circumstances. He was well aware of the difficulties opposed to any measure of remedy which could be suggested. At the same time he could not help thinking that, if their lordships were disposed to look the difficulties fairly in the face, they would become less than they might at first sight appear to be. A noble lord opposite, had, on a former occasion, referred to what he had thought it right to say in the course of last session, on the subject of the speculations which were then going on. What he had then said, showed that the causes of the present evils were not unforeseen. It had been said, however, that he had not pointed out all the sources of the delusion, and that in particular he had not said any thing of the country banks. Now, he would refer to the recollection of those who heard him at the time, as well as to those floating records, which, though loose and hastily made, would be found substantially correct, for an account of what he had said at that time. It would be found, that upon that occasion he had gone even out of his way, to give notice to the persons embarked in
451
452
453
454
l.,
l.
l.
455
l.,
l.,
l;
l;
l.,
l.
456
457
s.
458
l.
l.
459
l.
l.
l.
l.
l.
l.
l.
l.
l.
l.
l.
l.
l.
l.,
l.
l.,
l.
l.
460
461
462
463
464
465
466
The Earl of Limerick
wished to observe, that in Ireland there was no circulation whatever but of notes under 5
l.
The Earl of Lauderdale
said, that when, upon a former occasion, a noble lord had introduced the subject of the Corn laws, he had treated his observations in a way in which they ought to have been treated; namely, by not noticing them at all. But the case was different when the noble earl opposite thought proper to travel out of his way to allude to it, for the purpose of treating the House to an exhortation on the subject. The noble earl had said, that from what he perceived in the House, he anticipated some heat and intemperance in the discussion of the Corn laws, and he had warned their lordships against the influence of passion on that discussion. Now, he had only to say, that when he had last argued that question, he had not used a single argument in which he had not considered the interest of the landed proprietor and of the manufacturer as combined. In arguing in favour of the continuance of the Corn laws, he had as much advocated the rights of the manufacturer as those of the landed proprietor; and on behalf of all, he had contended for an equality of price, for a moderate remunerating price, a price beneficial to all, and not subject to any variation. He believed that those who looked at the prices since that period, would find as little, if not less, fluctuation than before those laws' were imposed. When the subject was again brought forward, he would discuss it in the same spirit; and God forbid that he should ever attempt to separate the great interests of this country. He could not permit it to go abroad, that their lordships were likely to argue such a momentous question with passion. He had found, and he would find again, that in the discussion of that great subject, the interests of the poor man and of the great land-
467
l.,
468
469
470
l.
471
l.
l.
l.
l.
l.
l.
l.
472
473
l.
l.
l.
474
l.
l.
l.
l.
475
476
477
478
l.
l.
479
l.
l.
480
The Marquis of Lansdown
said, that after what had fallen from his noble friend who had just sat down, he would endeavour, as much as possible, to avoid touching on several of the topics noticed by him. To one point in particular which his noble friend had mentioned he would not advert at all, or, if he did, but very slightly, as his noble friend had thrown around it a sort of cordon sanitaire. His noble friend had been justly induced, in dealing with this important subject, not to confine himself to the bill immediately before the House. He had viewed it, as their lordships ought to view it, with reference to the general state of credit, to the circulation of the country, and to the operation of other measures which it was the intention of his majesty's ministers to propose. He trusted, therefore, that he might be allowed to claim somewhat of the same indulgence in considering this subject. The topics to which he alluded necessarily divided themselves into two parts; the one was that which the noble earl had described as having been lately adopted by the king's government with a view to the immediate relief of the country; the second was that which had been proposed to parliament for the purpose of administering, if not a complete, at least a powerful remedy against a recurrence of that ruinous disorder, the existence of which no man attempted to deny. These
481
l.
482
l.
l.
483
484
485
l.
l.
l.
l.
486
487
l.
l.
l.
488
489
490
491
492
Lord Bexley
said, that he should not have trespassed on their lordships' attention, were it not that some allusion had been made to him by the noble marquis. With regard to the practical measure now proposed, he hoped it would not prove so defective as the noble lord opposite seemed to anticipate. He thought it
493
494
495
496
Lord Ellenborough
said, he could not give his assent to the measures flow before parliament, without expressing his opinions freely with regard to them. The measures at present proposed, as he understood them, were three: one intended to afford immediate relief; and the other two to prevent a recurrence of the calamities under which the country laboured. His chief objection to the measure for present relief was, that it would not relieve those who were most deserving of it, and that, while it would relieve some, it would necessarily injure others. For example, while it relieved those, who would not convert their Exchequer-bills into cash at a discount, it injured the banks that had been obliged to sell them during the height of the panic. There was no proof of the want of a circulating medium. It was more extensive now than at the end of 1824; yet, the object of government was, to increase it, when its very extent was alleged as one of the causes of the distress. The great cause of distress was, that people were all called on to pay what they owed, at the same time, and much sooner than they expected. It pervaded every class and description of persons. He knew not by what means relief could be administered; but he was sure that the measure of the noble earl would not reach those who were innocently involved in the calamities that pressed on the country. But, the noble lords on the Treasury bench were not agreed as to the character of their own measures. The noble earl had admitted, that the measure relative to the country banks was only a half measure, and had expressed his regret that he could not grant charters to the many joint-stock companies at once, while the noble lord who spoke last regarded the measures as of the greatest importance, and was only afraid that too great a number of joint-stock banks would be instituted. For his part, the events of the last two or three years, he confessed did not induce him to look at joint-stock companies with a favourable eye. He was not, therefore, sorry at the delay which must take place in the full completion of the measures; and, therefore, he thought no injury would result from the circumstance of these new companies not being able immediately to obtain charters. When the period fixed by law arrived, the materials would be provided for establishing them on an extended basis. He trusted no events would occur to prevent his majesty's ministers
497
l.
l.
l.
l.
l.
l.
498
l.
The Earl of Liverpool
said, that no clamour, no fear of the resistance they might meet with, would prevent his majesty's ministers from doing their duty fully with respect to this important subject. He trusted that their recent conduct was evidence of their resolution not to shrink from the task which they had prescribed to themselves. As to the mode of relief, to which the noble lord had objected, his opposition probably arose from his not having turned his attention to questions of that nature, and therefore not seeing the full bearing and operation of the course pursued by government. What was the state of the country? A general want of confidence. It was not that there was not the money; but every man shut up his resources, and looked only to himself. Many banks had already ceased to issue notes, though they had still the power to do so; and, in many other parts the public had absolutely refused to take them. There was a general want of confidence, and consequently a want of money. If the object of government had been merely to relieve the holders of Exchequer bills, it would have been highly improper; but the object was to throw two millions of money into active circulation, by which means they expected to relieve the country better than in any other way. If the noble lord had attended to the questions of the circulation, in 1819, he would have known, that in the committee of that House, their lordships had obtained lights
499
500
The bill was then read a second time. After which, the earl of Liverpool moved, that it be committed on Monday.
HOUSE OF COMMONS.
Friday, February 17, 1826.
CONDUCT OF MR. KENRICK IN THE
The order of the day for going into a committee on the Charge against Mr. Kenrick was read. On the question, "That Mr. Speaker do now leave the chair,"
The Speaker
said, that before he quitted the Chair, it was fit that the House should thoroughly understand the course to be pursued in the committee. If the committee were left without any instruction, it would be its duty not only to inquire into the charge by evidence, but to come to some resolution upon it, afterwards to be reported to the House; if, on the other hand, the committee, by a special instruction, were confined only to the taking of evidence, that evidence would be reported without the declaration of any opinion. Thus the result in the two cases would be different, and the course of proceeding would also materially vary. It would be observed also, that no speech from counsel could be heard, if the committee were only to take evidence, though the learned gentlemen might cross-examine the witnesses. If there were no restriction on the committee, and the whole subject were left open to its deliberation, then, of course, it would be its duty to listen to counsel on behalf of the party accused.
501
Mr. Denman
wished the committee to inquire into the whole matter, and that Mr. Kenrick's counsel should have an opportunity of addressing the committee, when the evidence was gone through. He should think it his duty, after the inquiry was over, to propose certain resolutions.
Mr. Secretary Peel
thought the better way would be to confine the committee to receiving the evidence. The House was aware that a judge was independent of the Crown, and could be removed only on an address from parliament. It was possible that the House might, in this instance, have to discharge that important duty. He merely supposed the possibility of such a contingency. Was it not, then, better that the House should have all the facts laid before it, and, on a full revision of the case, adopt such measures as were best calculated to answer the ends of justice?
Mr. Denman
thought that justice would be more likely to be done, while the proceeding would be infinitely more satisfactory to all parties, if a committee of the whole House inquired into the case without restriction. Any address to the Crown to remove a judge, must of course be the act of the House; but he did not see why a committee should not so pursue the inquiry, as to arrive at a termination which warranted it in reporting its opinion. First, the proof of the charge would be given, and upon that proof the committee might or might not report the charge established. He did not, in fact, see how the whole inquiry could be disposed of otherwise, and could find no sufficient reason, why the reported opinion of the committee, as far as it was of value, should not have its weight with the whole House.
The Speaker
again pressed upon the House the necessity of settling the course of proceeding. He had omitted to state, that if the committee went through the whole of the testimony, and registered its opinion in resolutions, those resolutions, as a matter of course, would be reported, but unaccompanied by the evidence. If, on the other hand, the committee were confined to the taking of evidence, that evidence would form the report, and the House might arrive at its own decision. It was true, that evidence could be laid upon the table upon the motion of any hon. member, but such a proceeding always implied a doubt as to
502
Mr. Peel
thought, that in so grave a case, it would be well for the House to reserve its power till after the committee. Suppose the committee should be of opinion, that though the individual had not acted quite correct, his conduct had not been so censurable as to call for his removal; would it not be desirable to avoid as much as possible casting a stigma upon a public functionary so placed? He thought, upon the whole, the better course would be for the committee to take the evidence, that being the sole duty devolving upon it, and then report it, the House reserving to itself any ulterior consideration. Of the case, he knew nothing, and was therefore free from prepossession and prejudice either way.
Mr. Abercromby
saw no substantial difference between the two courses. The result, in either case, would, in his opinion, be the same; nor did he think that the accused party would be aggrieved by adopting the course suggested by his learned friend. Any case having reference to the administration of justice could not be inquired into with too much exactness. It ought to be thoroughly sifted; for if the opinions which had been broached were to be acted upon, namely, that the House was not authorised to inquire into the conduct of a judge, it would be deprived of one of its most wholesome and important functions.
Mr. Denman
said, that another reason for requiring an opinion from the committee was, that in that case counsel might be heard before it in the same manner as his learned friend, Mr. Gurney, had been permitted to address the committee of last session.
The Speaker
said, that in either case counsel might be heard: they could be heard before the committee, if the committee were to report their opinion, or before the House, if the House reserved to itself the consideration of the evidence.
The Hon. William Lamb
said, he could not discover in what way this particular charge was connected with Mr. Kenrick's public character, or judicial duties. In the former inquiry, there was at least an allegation that Mr. Kenrick, as a magistrate, had been guilty of a denial of justice; a public wrong was thus done, and a private injury sustained. When, however, the House was now told, that it was its solemn duty to watch over
503
Colonel Wood
seconded the amendment. AH he knew of the case had been gathered from the votes. He was quite at a loss as to the capacity in which Mr. Kenrick was charged. In the accusation he was spoken of, indeed, as a magistrate and a Welch judge. But, pf what had he been guilty in those characters?
504
Mr. Secretary Peel
wished to state the reason why he should support the original motion. If the case were entirely a new one, and now brought forward for the first time, he should, as he had said on a former night, feel very much disposed to concur in opinion with his hon. friend, that the proceeding was inexpedient. But, he could not come to that conclusion now. They had permitted the charge to lie on their table. They had so far committed themselves for inquiry; and the learned gentleman had consented to postpone that inquiry, at his suggestion, from the last session, without the least hint given to him, that there was any intention to mar his proceeding in a later stage. In candour, therefore, he could not now interpose an obstacle, however impressed he might be with the injurious tendency of the precedent. He did not, however, see that this was exactly a private or domestic transaction, with which it was clearly beyond their province to interfere. No doubt the learned gentleman meant to impute malice to Mr. Kenrick in Franks case, and in the discharge of his public duty. Beset as he felt the proceeding was with dangers and difficulties, still he could not refuse his assent, under the circumstances in which he was placed, to the learned gentleman's motion.
Mr. Scarlett
felt that the present charge was only part of the proceeding of last session. From professional connexion with the parties, he had, from the first, been unwilling to say one word upon the subject; and he should have been deeply impressed with what had fallen from the hon. member for Hertford, if the present accusation had stood alone. One part of it was for a malicious prosecution, and the other for a libel; and for both, the ordinary tribunals of the country afforded sufficient remedies. Franks might bring his action for a malicious prosecution, if the prosecution were malicious; or he might proceed for damages for a libel, if the publication complained of were libellous. He agreed fully with the hon. member for Hertford as to the nature of the charge; he had never, indeed, read it until that moment, but he found that Mr. Kenrick was not accused in it, either as a magistrate or as a judge. He could easily
505
Mr. S. Bourne
said, that as far as he understood the charge, it did not at all imply malice. It alleged that Mr. Kenrick had preferred an accusation against Franks without sufficient proof; yet it went on to state, that the proof was so sufficient as to induce a magistrate to commit, and a grand jury to find a true bill. Thus, then, it was evident, that the only tangible accusation against Mr. Kenrick was for publishing a libel; but he had not published it, either in his character of a magistrate or a judge. If, indeed, the House had already committed itself on the subject, he should not feel himself at liberty to vote against proceeding further with the inquiry; but it seemed to him, that it was only to investigate the moral character of an individual, and that the precedent about to be established was full of danger.
Mr. Denman
expressed much surprise at the course which the discussion had taken. It could not be forgotten, that the charge had been placed upon the Journals in the last session; that long previous notice had been given of it; that papers had been laid upon the table; and that the grounds laid for the motion were quite unconnected with the private conduct of Mr. Kenrick. That gentleman had thought proper to apply for a criminal information against a newspaper for some comments upon his magisterial conduct, and he had put in several affidavits, in one of which was this gross libel upon Franks. Was this a private proceeding, or were the materials of accusation taken from an opponent? No; they were publicly and voluntarily furnished in a court of justice by Mr. Kenrick himself. They were in consequence, repeated in thousands of news-
506
507
Mr. Scarlett
said, that his argument did not go the length of asserting, that all moderation and decorum might be banished from the bench, and yet no public inquiry should take place by that House. He would admit, that the private conduct and actions of judges might in some cases become the subject of parliamentary inquiry; but these were extreme cases. If a judge was guilty of a libel, the law would reach him as well as any other person; and where that remedy might be had, he did not think, except in extreme cases, the House should interfere in matters affecting private conduct.
Mr. Stuart Wortley
thought the present case rather a curious one for the interference of the House. He would admit that the House might be called upon to interfere in certain cases, but he thought the present was not one of them. According to the statement of the hon. and learned mover, the first two parts of his charge were not offences of Mr. Kenrick, nor offences at all. It was another
508
Mr. Abercromby
said, he did not know any thing of the merits of the case; but whenever a matter affecting the conduct of a judge came before them, he thought it was their duty to institute an inquiry. The doctrine held by hon. members who opposed this motion, would have the effect of shutting out the exercise of one of the most valuable of their functions. He thought it was not too much to say, that if an individual, by acts of his own, had given notoriety to certain parts of his conduct, and those parts were of such a character as that, after they became known, no minister would dare to recommend him to the Crown to fill the office of judge—it was not, he repeated, too much to say, that the same acts being committed by a person who already held the office of judge, the House was bound, by the act of Settlement, to make them the subject
509
Mr. Secretary Canning
observed, that of all the questions which came under the consideration of that House, those which partook of a judicial character were the ques-
510
Mr. Denison
said, he had just had a communication with Mr. Kenrick in the lobby, who had told him, that he was perfectly prepared to meet the charge preferred against him, but would cheerfully submit to any course the House might think proper. He entirely concurred in the sentiments of the hon. member for Yorkshire; there was one observation, however, in the speech of the learned member for Calne, on which he must make a single remark. That learned member had supposed, that Mr. Kenrick's magisterial character would influence the committing magistrate to commit the person against whom he preferred the charge, and would afterwards influence the grand jury to find the bill. Now, really he thought the learned member knew the law too well not to be aware that no committing magistrate would have dared so to act, liable as he would be to severe punishment for his conduct; and
511
Mr. Wynn
said, that if the hon. member for Hertford pressed his amendment to a division, he should vote for it. He could not concur with those gentlemen who thought that this charge was a necessary sequel of the charge of last session. They were quite distinct, and he thought it would be injustice to Mr. Kenrick for hon. members to allow their opinions on this case to be influenced by what took place on that occasion. The ground on which the case of last session went was, that if it could be proved that this gentleman had acted improperly in his character as a justice of the peace, that ought to be a reason why he should be considered unfit to fill the higher office of a judge. The transaction in the present case did not affect him in his public capacity, but had reference to him solely as a private individual, for which he was liable, if he were in fault, to be called to account before the ordinary tribunals of the country. The House should recollect, that whatever might be their decision on this case, it would not ultimately rest with them alone. The concurrence of the other House would be necessary; and suppose that concurrence could not be obtained, what a situation would they be placed in, and what would be the painful situation of this individual, thus allowed to remain with the deep stain on his character, which a resolution of the House against him might imply? Would it not be a much better course for the House to confine itself to cases where guilt had been proved by the ordinary tribunals? He did not mean to say that there were not cases in which the House would be called upon to interfere, before any inquiry by the courts of law; but these were extreme cases, and it was most desirable that the principle applying to them should not be extended. He could not at all concur in the observation of the learned member for Calne, that if the character of an individual were such as that no minister would recommend him as a judge, that therefore (he being already a judge) he should not be allowed to continue to fill that situation. A judge held his situation quamdiu bene se gesserit; but the reasons for which he might be removed were, in general, founded upon his con-duct as a judge. He did not say that
512
The House divided: for the original motion 81; for the amendment 42, majority 39.
The House having resolved itself into the committee, Mr. Robert Gordon in the chair,
Henry Peters,
Denman,
Are you a magistrate for Surrey?—Yes.
Where do you reside?—At Betchworthcastle.
Is that near to where Mr. Kenrick resides?—About two miles.
Are you the magistrate before whom John Franks's daughter was brought on a charge of stealing from Mr. Kenrick's family?—I am.
How long is it since that charge was preferred?—It is a great many years; I should suppose seven or eight at least.
Do you remember what the age of Franks's daughter was at the time?—I do not recollect that I ever saw her; but I understood her to be about fourteen or fifteen.
Do you recollect the fact of a charge being preferred before you?—A charge was preferred, but, to the best of my recollection, I did not see the party, I think that I only granted a search warrant.
Do you recollect any evidence being brought before you to affect either Franks, the father, or the mother, with respect to the charge so preferred against their daughter?—Certainly not.
Were they charged before you, as abettors of their daughter, in the theft she was supposed to have committed?—Certainly not.
Are you the person who had some sheep stolen some years ago, when Franks was brought into some suspicion on that account?—I was.
Will you state shortly the circumstances?—
513
Your bailiff is here?—Yes, he is; this footpath leads from the place where Mr. Franks was working with a Mr. Browne, at the top of the hill. This footpath was in a direct road from where he was working to where he lived; there it was that the letter was found. That was the only suspicion that I ever had, or that ever was entertained of Franks having taken my sheep. Immediately after that, the man who had stolen the sheep was taken up, tried, and convicted.
Did you ever at any other time lose any sheep in which Franks ever incurred any suspicion at all?—About two years afterwards, I had, in another part of the farm, one sheep killed, and I believe taken away; another was wounded; but as to that, there was not the slightest ground of suspicion that I ever heard of against Franks.
Did you, at any time in August, 1824, receive a letter from Mr. Kenrick?—I did. I have got the letter here; but it bears no date except that of Sunday morning.
Is that in Mr. Kenrick's hand-writing?—I have not the least reason to doubt it; and I received it by his servant from him.
[The Letter was read as follows:]
"My dear Sir;—I returned home last night, and found the fair copy I send herewith, of the draft affidavit, which I hastily put together in the two days I could remain in the country, before I was obliged to set out on the circuit, after I was made acquainted with the attack made on me in the Morning Chronicle.
"My solicitor strongly recommends to me lo apply to the different parties whose names are mentioned, to make affidavit of such facts as are stated in relation to them; and shall be therefore obliged by your perusing the second, third, fourth, and fifth sheets of this draft for me, if you will make an affidavit in confirmation of what is there stated.
"I have my doubts of the propriety of stating the circumstance about your two sheep, in pages four and five, and at all events it will not be necessary, if I should be advised or determine to retain that part, for you to enter upon it in your affidavit. I will call on you to-morrow, if you wish it.
"Pray return me the draft affidavit by the bearer, after you have read the pages mentioned, and the rest, if you please. I have
514
"Sunday morning. W. KENRICK."
Was that letter accompanied by an affidavit?—It was.
Did you see Mr. Kenrick in consequence of that letter?—I did not, but I wrote him an answer to that letter.
Did you see Mr. Kenrick upon the subject of that affidavit?—I cannot say whether I did or not, it is so long ago; I very likely did, but I wrote him an answer to the letter decidedly at the time.
Did you keep a copy of the answer you sent?—No, I did not; I recollect perfectly well what I wrote, and I have no doubt Mr. Kenrick has got the answer.
Did you return the affidavit to Mr. Kenrick?—I did, with a letter.
Was it returned altered in any respect?—I think it very likely that I might have written my opinion upon parts of it; I recollect perfectly well having written a letter, or at least sent an answer.
What was that answer?—I said in that answer, that I did not think that I could make any affidavit to the facts he had alluded to, for that really the circumstances were all out of my recollection, with the exception of my having granted a search warrant; but with respect to the affair of Franks, I told him by all means not to state that, as there was not the slightest proof of Franks' having been guilty of that which he supposed he was. There is one thing I ought to explain, both for Mr. Kenrick's sake and my own. Till I read the letter this very morning, so little notion had of Franks having any thing to do with the second sheep (and I only slightly suspected him of stealing the first), that I thought Mr. Kenrick alluded to the first; and I stated, therefore, that there was no evidence against him, but the piece of paper having been found, and therefore I said he ought not to put it in, because the real culprit had been taken up and convicted.
Cross-examined by Mr.
Gurney.
A man of the name of Rose?—Rose is dead; but whether he was constable or not, I really do not know.
Do you remember whether there was not a circumstance of a bloody knife as well as a piece of paper?—I never heard of a bloody knife, till either Mr. Kenrick or Mr. Wimburn mentioned it. I never heard of a bloody knife at the time; there was a space of two years between the time of my sheep having been stolen, and the one sheep having been killed; therefore the bloody knife could not be in the fold where the sheep were taken; and I am certain I never heard of a bloody knife at the time.
Examined by Mr. Denman.—Were any sheep
515
How many years ago was this affair of the sheep?—I should think somewhere about six or seven. I really cannot remember the year.
You have been a magistrate a good many years for the county of Surrey?—Yes, a great many years.
And residing in the neighbourhood of Franks?—Yes.
Was Franks ever brought before you, as a magistrate?—Never; I never heard his name mentioned before me as a magistrate.
[The Witness was directed to withdraw.]
Edward Arnold
Mr. Denman,
Are you Mr. Peters's bailiff?—I am.
Do you know any thing of a charge against Franks's daughter, some years ago?—No, nothing.
Do you know of a suspicion that fell upon Franks with respect to stealing some of Mr. Peters's sheep?—When Mr. Peters's sheep were stolen, or after they were stolen, there was a paper found in the field; I took the paper to lord Rothes, and he said he could see nothing to justify him in granting a warrant to apprehend Franks. Mr. Kenrick said, that he thought there was a suspicion to grant a warrant against Franks; lord Rothes afterwards said, that he could see nothing to justify him to grant a warrant against Franks, for any other person might be going up the field, and taking their handkerchief out of their pocket, they might drop a paper out, and it might be carried there by the wind.
Were you the witness that went before lord Rothes, with respect to that business?—Yes, I was.
Was there any other circumstance to charge Franks, except the finding a piece of paper near the fold where the sheep were taken from?—No, nothing that I heard of.
Were any of those sheep killed?—There were none killed at the time those were taken.
Was there a bloody knife found?—Not that I know of.
Was there any other person afterwards tried and convicted of stealing those sheep?—Yes, a person of the name of Bignold.
Did you attend his trial?—I did; he was tried, I believe, before lord Ellenborough, at Lewes. He was found guilty, and afterwards transported for the said offence.
Did you ever hear of any other circumstance that fixed Franks with any suspicion of stealing any sheep of Mr. Peters's?—Not to my knowledge.
How long have you lived near Franks?—Ever since 1811, I have lived little better than a mile from him.
What character has Franks borne during all that time, as an honest and industrious man?—I know nothing in respect to Franks's character; for at the time our sheep were stolen,
516
Since that time, have you ever had dealings with Franks?—Yes; I think the sheep were stolen in April, in the November following I sold him a sow.
[The Witness was directed to withdraw.]
John Franks
Mr. Denman,
What is your name?—John Franks.
Where do you live?—At Alverston, near Stratford-on-Avon.
In whose service?—Lieut.-general Jenkinson's.
In what capacity?—As gardener; I have the care of all out of the house.
Did you live some years at Betchworth, in Surrey?—Yes.
You have a freehold there?—I have.
Do you recollect your daughter being taken before Mr. Peters, the magistrate, on a charge of stealing some articles at Mr. Kenrick's?—Yes, very well.
Did you attend before the magistrate at the same time?—I did.
Was any charge made against you, of being an abettor in that theft?—I do not know that there was any charge made against me, only Mr. Kenrick rose up in a passion, and told me, if he could get any hold of me, he would make a public example of me.
Were the articles missing found any where in your house?—They were.
In what part of the house?—In a little small box belonging to the girl herself.
How old was the girl at the time?—Nearly about ten years of age; I do not know to a month or two.
What were the articles that were found in the box?—I cannot say exactly, for I never saw them till I saw them in the room; but they were slips of silk, or something of that kind, and a bit of lace, and a pair of small scissors.
Were those things found in your bed-room?—They were beside the girl's bed; she sleeps in the same room.
Were they concealed any where?—No; only in a little deal box, where she kept a doll and other things; it was a box given her by her godfather.
The charge was dismissed, it was not prosecuted?—It was not.
Out of compassion, probably, to the youth of the child?—Yes, it was.
Did Mr. Peters say any thing to you on dismissing the charge?—Not that I recollect, he did not. Mr. Adams called to me, that was Mr. Kenrick's butler.
Was that before the magistrate?—It was just withoutside of the door in the passage; but he went in to the gentlemen, and sent the constable out after me to call me back.
You were sent to prison on a charge of stealing a piece of wood?—I was.
That was in the summer of 1824?—It was.
517
You were in prison two months on that charge?—Exactly.
Did you give your wife any authority to intercede with Mr. Kenrick to show you any lenity on that occasion?—Not at all; I never spoke to her any thing on the subject: the last thing I spoke to her when I went out of the house was, to be sure that the children did not make use of any ill language to any of Mr. Kenrick's people, though I was sent away.
Did you ever express any gratitude to Mr. Kenrick, or his bailiff, or any of his people, for his conduct to you in the course of that prosecution?—Not at all.
Is your wife here?—I do not know that she is, unless she has come in by the coach since I came down here.
[The Witness was directed to withdraw.]
The Counsel for Mr. Kenrick being asked what course they wished to pursue, Mr. Gurney stated, that he proposed to call a witness to deliver in certain documents.
Charles John Lawson,
Gurney,
What is your name?—Charles John Lawson.
You are clerk of the peace for the county of Surrey?—I am.
Are you possessed of the depositions taken by Mr. Burges, the magistrate who committed Franks?—I am.
Will you produce them? [The Witness produced the Lame, and they were read as follow:]
"
The King
John Franks.
"
James Scragg
"JAMES SCRAGG."
"
James Beal,
518
"John Franks, in his defence, says:—The piece of timber produced, is the piece which I set up upon my premises, but I do not know where it came from; I first saw it there about a fortnight ago. It was lying down, and I set it up. I made no inquiry about it, as to where it came from."
"Surrey. The Examination of John Franks, of Betchworth, in the county of Surrey, labourer, taken before me Ynyr Bulges, esq. one of his Majesty's Justices of the Peace for the county of Surrey, this 14th day of May, 1824.
"This Examinant being charged before me the said Justice, on the oaths of James Scragg and James Beal, with having, on the 14th day of May, 1824, at the parish of Betchworth, in the county of Surrey, feloniously stolen and carried away one piece of elm timber of the value of one shilling, the property of William Kenrick, esq., on his examination now taken before me, saith, That he is not guilty of the offence aforesaid, though the piece of timber was on his (the Examinant's) premises; but how it came there, he this Examinant doth not know.
"JOHN FRANKS."
During Franks's imprisonment for trial, did you receive a letter from Mr. Kenrick, respecting the stopping of the prosecution?—I did.
Will you produce the letter. [The Witness produced the same, and it was read as follows:]
"Dear Sir;—I wish to have a little of your advice, arising from your practical knowledge as clerk of the peace. John Franks was committed by Mr. Burges, of Ryegate, for stealing a plank, valued at one shilling, from me, a day or two after the late sessions, and of course has been in gaol nearly three months, a punish-
519
"Yours truly,
"Broom, Dorking. W. KENRICK."
Did you transmit that letter to lord Middle-ton?—I did.
Lord Middleton was the chairman of the sessions, was he not?—He was.
Did you receive an answer from lord Middleton?—I received an immediate answer from lord Middleton.
In the negative?—Yes.
And you communicated that to Mr. Kenrick?—I did.
[The Witness was directed to withdraw.]
Mr.
Gurney
Mr. Denman
apprehended, it would be infinitely better if the observations of his learned friend at the bar should be reserved until the evidence had been in the hands of members.
Dr. Phillimore
concurred in the propriety of the course marked out by the learned gentleman.
The Chairman
then asked the learned counsel whether they meant to produce any other evidence?
Mr. Gurney
having replied in the negative, counsel were ordered to withdraw. The House resumed; the chairman reported progress; minutes of evidence were ordered to be printed; and
520
NAVY ESTIMATES.
On the order of the day for going into a committee on the Navy Estimates,
Mr. Hume
said, it appeared to him that the House was proceeding much too rapidly with respect to these estimates. He well knew, if ministers persevered in the course of expenditure which they had pursued for the last few years, the country would be little able to bear it, in the new circumstances in which it was placed. The House should be made acquainted with the amount which would be necessary for the army, navy, ordnance, and other establishments; as the amount of the last year had greatly exceeded those of former years. It might not be improper to recall the attention of the House to the fact, that in 1816, a committee had sat, composed, he might say, of his majesty's ministers—called the Finance Committee, and had reported, that the amount of the expenditure of the said establishments, after paying two millions to the India company, would not exceed 17,350,000
l.
l.
l.
l.
l.
l.
l.,
521
522
The Chancellor of the Exchequer
said, the only mode the House had to determine why it was that the estimates of the present year exceeded those of the last, was by going into a committee of supply, in which his hon. friend (sir G. Clerk) would explain them, item by item. Although, for the last few years, he had felt it due to the public convenience to give as early an explanation as he could of the state of the finances of the country, yet he had never supposed the House would have been precluded from pursuing the usual course of going into a committee of supply for the purpose of inquiring whether the amount proposed ought to be voted. If the House were to abstain from investigating the estimates, item by item, until he had made his general statement of the finances of the country, it would be imposing on him a task which he should be unable to perform; for he must, in that case, take upon himself to explain the duties of his hon. friend near him, and of those other hon. friends who were engaged in the various public departments. It would be the most inconvenient course possible, and, in fact, was calculated to throw obstacles in the way of the views of the hon. member himself. If when the different items were explained to the committee by the head of the department to which they belonged, they were not explained in a satisfactory manner, the committee could reject them. The usual practice appeared to him to be at once the most convenient and the most salutary; and he therefore could not acquiesce in any proposal for departing from it.
Colonel Davies
contended, that it was the duty of the House to make the government reduce its establishments, in order to secure a reduction of taxation. It was possible, that when these estimates were produced, he should give them his support, for they related to a branch of the public service towards which he, is common with every man, was disposed to act liberally. He was anxious to support the navy upon every occasion, as it was
523
Mr. Bright
called upon ministers to take the state of the country into immediate consideration. He took the present opportunity of protesting against their inactivity, in order that he might not, on some future occasion, be blamed for having participated in it. Indeed, if some explanation were not given before the House resolved itself into the committee, he did not know whether he should not be provoked to create an opportunity for delivering his own sentiments upon the present condition of the nation. The right hon. gentleman had stated, that it would be inconsistent with the ordinary practice of parliament, if, when he entered into his financial statements, he were to go into the estimates point by point. Did, then, the right hon. gentleman mean to put off his statement till all the estimates were voted? The sum voted as a supply might not be such as he proposed; and therefore it was necessary for the House to know how to apportion it to the different branches of the public service. The estimates Ought to be examined in detail, with a view of making every possible reduction in them. He doubted much whether the revenue, under the new system of currency which was going to be introduced, could be raised to any thing like its old amount. Sure he was, that the proposed alteration in the circulating medium would cause great heart-burning in the collection of the ordinary taxes of the country.
Mr. Hutchinson
supported the amendment. The going into a committee upon the estimates without having an account of the financial state of the country, appeared to him to be as absurd as it would be for a gentleman to order a carriage and horses, without knowing what fortune he had to support it. Ministers acted as if they wished to pledge the House to support a certain amount of expenditure, without allowing it to judge of its means of meeting it.
Mr. Hume
said, that ministers, at the commencement of every year called on the heads of their different establishments to give them an account of the sums they wanted for the ensuing year, in
524
l.
l.
l.
Mr. Secretary Canning
observed, that whatever might be the distress of the country, he could see no reason why hon. gentlemen should set themselves in array against the forms of parliament, and should insist that business should be transacted in a different mode from that in which it had been transacted for ages. He believed that never, on any account, had there been any deviation from the course which government had proposed that night to take; that never, not merely since the Revolution, but before it, in the most turbulent times, had a vote been taken in objection to the Speaker's leaving the chair, when the purpose of it was to vote a supply in committee for the navy; and that never had such a demand been made upon any head of a department as that which had just been made on his hon. friend, to open his statement of the estimates before he went into the committee, where alone that statement could be productive of any practical result. The House went into a committee, in order that explanations might be asked and given of the different items in the estimates, without infringing upon the usual orders of the House; and the hon. member now asked, that for the first time these explanations should be given in the House itself; and because he had a speech within him, which he had declared his intention if provoked, to make, now called upon them to depart from their usual custom of voting each of the estimates separately in a committee. He would rather hear his speech now, and then go into the committee, than depart from the ancient and long-established practice of parliament. But, said another hon. gentleman, would it be right for a man to keep a house in town and another in the country, without
525
Mr. C. F. Palmer
thought that government should ascertain the effect of the alteration in the currency before it proceeded to levy taxes on the country. He asked, whether the salaries of certain functionaries filling high public situations, had not been raised in the course of the last year; and if so, whether they would not be still further raised, in consequence of the alterations which were now making in a depreciated currency?
Mr. Hume
said, he was so far from being actuated by any angry feeling, that he would not press his amendment to a division. If his proposition went to introduce a new practice into the House, he was not aware of it. At any rate, whether new or not, he thought it highly advantageous to the public service.
526
Sir George Clerk
said, that it now became his duty to explain to the committee why the navy estimates of this year were greater than those of the last. He expressed a hope that he should be able to satisfy the hon. member for Aberdeen, that the navy estimates of the present year were drawn up with every attention to economy, which the safety and the honour of the country admitted. The hon. member upon this occasion, as upon many others, had referred to the opinion given by the committee of finance in 1817, as to the requisite magnitude of our naval force, and had contrasted the navy estimates of that year with the navy estimates of the present. Now, upon that head, he would say, that owing to the great extension of our commerce with the nations of South America, the calls on the Admiralty for ships of war to afford it protection had very much increased; and that with the force now voted, the Admiralty had not been able to meet the demands which had been made upon it from several quarters to send an adequate force into all those seas. The committee would recollect, that there was no part of South America with which we did not trade at present. The unsettled situation of those states, arising partly from their struggle with their mother country, and partly from their jealousy of each other, rendered it absolutely necessary for this country to have an adequate naval force on the coasts of all of them, to guard our commerce from the insults to which it would otherwise be infallibly subjected. The hon. member for Aberdeen had stated, that the increase in our naval establishment had been occasioned by a corresponding increase in. the navy of the United States. To that statement he must give an unqualified denial. The increase in our navy, since 1821, was occasioned by the increase of our commerce with South America. Its unsettled condition, which had been felt by the United States, by France, and by every naval power which had any commerce at all, had rendered an augmentation necessary in the naval force of each state. For the same reason, a necessity for increasing our force in the Mediterranean had risen out of the war now raging between the Greeks and the Turks. If we had not had a considerable naval force in that sea, we should have suffered
527
l.
l.
s.
528
l.
l.
l.
529
l.,
l.
l.
l.
l.
l.
l.
l.
l.
Mr. Hume
observed, that it was difficult for him to say whether 29,000 or 30,000 men were the exact number required for the sea-service. He should not, therefore,
530
l.
531
l.
l.
l.
l.
l.
l.
532
l.,
l.
l.,
l.
l.
l.
533
l.
l.
l.
l.,
534
Sir G. Clerk
said, he had no wish to complain either of the statements which had just been made by the hon. member, or of the manner in which he had brought them forward; for he had done no more than what he conceived to be his duty, in directing the attention of the committee to such matters. The hon. gentleman had objected to the aggregate amount of the half-pay and pension charge, as being this year excessive, instead of exhibiting
535
l.
l.
l.
536
537
PROMISSORY NOTES BILL.
The Chancellor of the Exchequer
rose to move the order of the day for the second reading of this bill. Before he did so, he wished to state to the House, that it was his intention, in the committee, to submit a proposition, not to the extent suggested by the hon. member for Newton (Mr. Hudson Gurney), which he thought went too far, but a modification of it. The proposition of the hon. member was, if he understood him right, that the circulation of small notes should be prohibited to the country banks, and yet the issue should be permanently allowed to the Bank of England. Now, this proposition would be very unjust to the country banks, and inconsistent with the whole principle of the measure. But, it had been represented to him, that a limitation of that proposition, so far from impeding the measure, would promote its success. It was his intention, therefore, to propose, that instead of prohibiting the Bank of England from issuing small notes dated subsequently to the 5th of February last, it should be left to them to issue such notes dated previous to the 10th of October next. The object of this proposition was, to give the country bankers facilities for preparing themselves for the effects of the bill, and the gradual withdrawal of their notes. It had been stated, that the greatest possible inconvenience would arise, if all the small notes were completely withdrawn at one moment. When the bill came into the committee, he should propose that there should be such a limitation as he had stated. He should, however, propose, that the notes of the Bank of England should be finally withdrawn, at the same time as those of the country banks.
Mr. Ellice
asked, what great relief was to be afforded by this- alteration, and Whether it was not, in fact, an abandon-
538
Mr. Bright
said, he felt strongly for the distresses under which the country continued to labour; and would ask, were not he and his friends fully justified in voting against the bill? Were not he and his hon. friends justified in asking, whether the present was a proper time for the introduction of such a measure? Were they not justified in having voted against it, under the existing circumstances of the country? Were they not justified in the belief which they had expressed, that ministers could not carry it? Were they not justified in their assertion, that it was impossible that the country could bear the operation of the bill? Were they not justified in stating that, taxed and impoverished as they were, the people ought not to be additionally distressed by the withdrawal of the small-note currency? He had already declared his intention of
539
Mr. Huskisson
said, he was not at a loss to account for the extreme degree of heat
540
Mr. Ellice.
—I never used the word impeach. I said arraign.
Mr. Huskisson
—Well, arraign let it be; but let the House inquire what had been the conduct of those individuals. The moment the Bank directors found themselves in possession of a sufficient quantity of gold coin to supply the place of their
541
Sir J. Wrottesley
said, he was apprehensive that the incidental wants of the country would oblige ministers to abandon their original principle, and that when they should have abandoned their principle, his hon. friends, of the philosophic club behind him, would come down upon them. Do what they would, ministers could not please. The system of going on upon principle and theory was to him so novel
542
s.
Mr. Hudson Gurney
said, that the degree in which the chancellor of the Exchequer had consented to enlarge the time for allowing the Bank of England to issue small notes, was, in his view, so far from being a dereliction of the plans which the right hon. gentleman had brought forward, that he was convinced, that it was the only possible manner in which they could be carried into effect. He had, on a former occasion, entered into the great distinction that existed between the cir-
543
Mr. Cripps
said, he could not see the weight of the hon. gentleman's argument,
544
l.
545
Mr. Calcraft
congratulated the right hon. gentlemen opposite on the new light which had broken in upon them. They now, it appeared, felt the force of the arguments which he and others had been in vain urging since the commencement of the session, in which they endeavoured to show the extreme impolicy of ministers, in crying down one species of currency, before they had another to substitute for it. And now, seeing that their measures could not be otherwise carried into effect, they had been driven to the expedient of supplying the place of the country notes with the small notes of the Bank of England. The mischievous nature of the
546
s.
547
Mr. Tierney
begged leave to assure the House, that though he had hitherto carefully abstained from taking a part in these discussions, it was not because he was insensible of their value, or indifferent to their results. On the contrary, he had uniformly felt the greatest anxiety to hear all that had been said on the occasion. He could assure the House, that during the course of a long parliamentary experience, he had never listened with more patience to the agitation of any great question than he had done to this; and never did he recollect one in which party feeling had so entirely given way to the calm and deliberate consideration of the imperative interests of the country. He gave at the outset his cordial assent to the principle upon which the contemplated measures of ministers were founded; namely, a speedy return to a metallic circulation. He knew it to be a sound principle: he thought the government were serious, and knew what they were about respecting it: indeed, he admired them for the apparent stoutness with which they had brought forward the measure. But, what was the case now? The ministers had no sooner announced their plan, accompanied by a firm declaration of its inviolability, than they came forward with a new proposition, which, mitigate as they would, was a material abandonment of the principle with which they had set out. Throughout the whole of these proceedings, indeed, he had witnessed the strangest indecision, and wandering from one point to another in their course—at one time exhibiting more firmness than the occasion required, and at another time the most compromising distrust. The chancellor of the Exchequer and the first lord of the Treasury had set out with what he would not call their well-considered letter to the Bank, partly because he did not think it had been well considered at all, and partly because (though he knew that meaning was not intended) it indulged in expressions which were liable, as they had been, to be misconstrued into indiscriminate reflections upon the country bankers. This letter was followed by the expose of the two branches of the system which the government had deter-
548
549
550
l.
551
"Treason does never prosper—what's the reason?
Why, when it prospers, 'tis no longer treason."
552
s.
l.
Mr. H. Gurney
said, he had mentioned only 13,000
l.
Mr. Tierney
did not mean to say that his hon. friend had ever been guilty of any thing so imprudent. He was too well acquainted with the system, and knew much better than to adopt that course; but, if such large sums were not destroyed, they might be locked up for a time, until opportunity offered for their re-appearance. In the district in which this burning of the notes took place, he knew there was great distress felt. The bankers alluded to were, perhaps, in a state of great irritation; but that distress would, he had no doubt, be in time removed, and it might happen that the man who had so foolishly thrown his notes into the fire, would be glad to rake up the cinders, and to find some of those notes among them. Again, he would repeat that, in his opinion, all that was wanted in the country was, the restoration of confidence. That would call forth the hoards which were now left unemployed. There was abundance of the precious metals, he also believed, which would be forthcoming, if this confidence were restored. But, the fact was, the country bankers were offended. There was, here and there, a strong expression of blame to them, in the late correspondence of government with the Bank. Perhaps, those expressions were not meant to give offence in the quarter in which it was taken; but it did unfortunately happen that they were taken
553
l.,
554
The Chancellor of the Exchequer
said, he did not rise at that late hour to enter into a discussion of all the topics brought under review in the speech of the right hon. gentleman, nor did he rise to state the grounds on which he should be prepared to show that the opposition he had offered to the measure recommended by the gentleman opposite, was not inconsistent with the measure he himself recommended, nor that it would, in any degree, tend to counteract its effects. But he was anxious to say a few words on what had fallen from the right hon. gentleman respecting the issues of the Bank. He was perfectly willing to take his share of all the blame, if blame there were, as to the conduct which the government had held towards the Bank. He admitted, that the proposal for taking the dead weight proceeded from the government. It was adopted by the Bank, at the suggestion of the government; and if there was any blame belonging to that measure, that blame belonged to the government. But, the government had nothing to do with the Bank keeping those annuities. It might sell them; and that it had not chosen to do so, was entirely its own proceeding. With respect to the issues of the Bank, to enable the government to pay off the four per cent in October, 1824, that measure was proposed by the government, and for it the government alone was responsible. As to the other measures mentioned by the right hon. gentleman, he was bound to say, for it was the truth, that the government was in no degree responsible or to blame. As to the Bank lending money on stock, and thus increasing its issues, he would only say, that so far from its having been adopted at the suggestion of the government, government never knew of the measure being adopted until after it had ceased, and could not, therefore, be charged with participating in it. As to lending money on mortgage also, the government was not responsible for that step. He would say for himself, that he never heard such a measure was in agitation, until the Bank had told him it was done. For that also the government could not be responsible; whatever in-
555
Mr. Ellice
said, he would not divide the House, because from the declaration of the chancellor of the Exchequer, he did not think he was opposed to the principle of the measure recommended.
The bill was then read a second time.
HOUSE OF LORDS.
Monday, February 20, 1826.
CORN LAWS.
Lord King
said, he had a petition to present from Brecon, in the name of the town; but whether it could be received as such, or only as the petition of the individuals who signed it, he did not know. It was a petition against what he called the landlords act—the job of jobs—the Corn laws. The noble earl opposite had expressed a hope that this subject, when it came to be discussed, would be considered dispassionately; and, for his part, he was very desirous to attend to the recommendation, when the day of discussion should come. The question was—when would that be? In the course of last session he had been given to understand, that the great dis-
556
BANK CHARTER BILL.
On the order of the day for the committal of this bill,
Lord King
wished to say a few words before their lordships went into the committee. He had heard a great many bad measures defended in that House by good speeches, and a few good measures also supported by good speeches; but, whether the measures were originally good or bad, it often happened that they had the same result. When a good measure was brought forward, it was sure, some how or other, to be frittered away and defeated. A striking instance of this had just occurred. On Friday night last, when the noble earl had proved to demonstration the advantage of the measure he was submitting to the House—when he had clearly shown that it was impossible for one and two pound notes and sovereigns to circulate together, his whole plan was upset. At the very moment when he was in the heart of his demonstration, the noble lord's lieutenant in another announced that the ribbons of notes of the Bank of England should have a preference over coin. He was sorry to find all the noble earl's arguments
557
558
The Earl of Liverpool
observed, that the noble lord, as well as others, had fallen into a mistake with respect to the proceeding which had taken place elsewhere. Nothing had been done or proposed relative to the currency, which was a departure from the principles on which the measure brought forward in another place, or the bill before that House, was founded. He entirely agreed with the noble lord in opinion, that a metallic currency and paper of the same denomination could not circulate together. But, if the noble lord had done him the honour to attend to what he had stated on Friday last, he would not have had occasion to refer to what passed in another place on the subject of the power intended to be given to the Bank. The noble lord would have found, that lie (lord L.) had made the very same proposition at the close of his speech. The object in bringing the measures now before parliament was to get rid altogether of the small notes: but, as that could not be safely done at once, it was thought adviseable to make the circulation of that description of currency finally determine at the expiration of three years from the present date. The principle on which the measures were grounded, was the entire extinction of the one and two pound notes; but it was thought desirable that this object should be accomplished gradually. With regard to the Bank of England, he wished their lordships to recollect, that that body had, by a law passed in 1822, the power of
559
560
The Marquis of Lansdown
being persuaded that the noble earl was sincere in the object he professed to have in view, felt it impossible for him to suppose that that noble earl could wish to delegate to any individual or body whatever, the power of defeating those measures which he had brought forward, for the avowed purpose of carrying his object into effect. He was willing to believe that it was not the wish of the Bank to abuse the power which might be given, and he was sure such could not be the wish of the noble earl; but, the noble earl could not fail to perceive, that if the clause he had described should pass, unguarded by any restrictions, he would be doing nothing less than giving to the Bank of England a power to defeat the whole of his measure. The noble earl had admitted the impossibility of looking forward to the circulation of small notes and specie, and that the only remedy for this evil was to provide for the influx of gold to such an extent as to supply the place of the small notes. Now, for gold to flow into the country while small notes circulated, was impossible. It would, therefore, be necessary to guard most carefully against the increase of these notes, if the measures now in progress were wished to be effectual. And here it was to be recollected, that their lordships had not the same means of ascertaining the quantity of small notes of the Bank of England in circulation as they had of the country banks, in consequence of the Bank of England not being under the necessity of going to the Stamp-office, but paying a composition instead of stamps. Supposing, then, the Bank were disposed to take advantage of the power about to be given, they would have time enough between this and October to deluge the country with paper sufficient to last during the whole of the three years in which the small notes were to be allowed to circulate. There would, in that case, be no gradual reduction of the small-note circulation: but, at the time when parliament was recognizing the principle, that the circulation of this-description of paper was an evil, it would be most inconsistent to delegate to any body an unqualified power to defeat the
561
The Earl of Liverpool
repeated, that the sole purpose for which the clause was proposed was, that means might be possessed of guarding against a possible danger. He agreed with the noble marquis, that the power given to the Bank should be accompanied by proper guards, and expressed is willingness, if the clause did not come up in a satisfactory shape, to concur in any amendment which their lordships might consider necessary.
The Earl of Roseberry
did not mean to enter into any discussion as to the original cause of the commercial difficulties, but would remark, that it appeared to him that the present distress was different from that which first occurred, which was confined to a rush on the banks. He thought that some of the measures of ministers had tended to aggravate the distress, but considered the present a good one, but did not approve of its intended extension to Scotland. If their lordships wished to place the banking system of England on a solid fooling, it should be their object to put an end to the pecuniary relations between the Bank of England and the government. He agreed with those who thought that the transactions of the Bank, with regard to the military pensions and the reduction of the interest of the debt, had contributed to the present difficulties; for the circumstance of the Bank becoming purchasers occasioned large issues of notes on inconvertible securities. It was said, that the Bank had the power of selling; but, as the sale of the annuities had been previously attempted by government without success, it was not very clear how the sale was to become so easy a matter to the Bank. With regard to the measure for calling in the small notes, he begged to be understood as limiting his approbation of it exclusively as it applied to England. Every reflecting person acquainted with the state of Scotland, attributed its rapid prosperity, next to the free institutions which, in common with the rest of
562
The Earl of Limerick
said, he was one of those who considered that a metallic currency would be most beneficial to the country, and that such a currency could never exist with a currency of paper; but, in Ireland things were very different to what they were in England. There they had no other circulation but the small notes of the Bank of Ireland and the provincial banks, and the withdrawal of them without a full supply of gold would be ruinous to the last degree. He hoped, therefore, that government would take especial care to provide an ample currency of coin, before they withdrew that of the one and two pound notes.
The Earl of Blesinton
said, that the only danger to Ireland was the withdrawal of the small notes before a supply of gold had been sent to replace them. There had not been for a long time any gold in the south of Ireland, but in the north some gold had always been in circulation. In the south, notes for so low a sum as 3
s.
d.
The Earl of Liverpool
assured their lordships, that when a proposition for extending the measure to Ireland should be brought forward it would be his endeavour to give all possible attention to the peculiar circumstances of that country. If Ireland was now recovering from difficulties, the noble lord, he doubted not, would allow that that favourable circumstance was greatly owing to the introduction of the system which it was the object of the bill to accomplish for this country; namely, that of allowing banks to be established by joint-stock companies. As to the paper circulation, its evils never would be cured until it was got rid of by law. It was a curious fact, that after the Bank Restriction act, and during the war,
563
The Earl of Lauderdale
said, that one cause of that curious fact alluded to by the noble earl, was this, that the landlords of Ireland would only take their rents in gold, so that the tenants were compelled to pay them in that manner. This might have satisfied the noble earl; but, if he had gone further, he would have discovered a circumstance quite as curious as the fact itself; and that was, the mode in which these payments were managed. When rent-day approached, the sum of five hundred guineas was sent down from Dublin, and given to one set of tenants, in exchange for their notes; they then paid their rent in gold; which, as soon it was thus received, was handed to another set of tenants in exchange for their notes; this being repeated till all the tenants had paid their rents, it might be literally said that they all paid their rents in gold. The money was then returned to Dublin, from whence it came, there to remain till another-rent day should require it to make a second journey into the country.
The Earl of Blesinton
denied this statement, which he characterised as a mere piece of ingenious humour.
The Earl of Limerick
supported this denial, declaring, that to his certain knowledge, there was not at the time alluded to a single guinea in the south of Ireland.
The Earl of Roseberry
asked whether it was the intention of ministers to submit to parliament any measure for the suppression of small notes in Scotland, and if so, what was the nature of that measure?
The Earl of Liverpool
answered in the affirmative as to the first question; but as to the second, he was not prepared to say what would be the exact nature of the measure he should offer.
The Earl of Lauderdale
rose, to state his conviction, that there was no man of any class, or of any party, who would for one moment hesitate to express his complete satisfaction with the state of the currency as it at present stood in Scotland; nay, who would not declare it to be
564
The House having gone into a committee,
The Earl of Liverpool
said, it was now his duty to call their lordships' attention to a clause which, upon consideration, it was deemed adviseable to introduce on the subject of branch banks to be established by the Bank of England. It was his opinion, that the Bank had already the power of establishing branch banks in any part of the country which they thought proper. A doubt, however, existed in the mind of the highest authority, upon such a subject, that without some specific clause for the purpose, they would be prevented from giving effect to that power. They had the power to appoint agencies in the country; but then it was doubted whether this bill, in its present form, enabled the Bank to give them the authority of acting on their own discretion, and not as mere agents; for without that authority they could not answer the purpose contemplated in the formation of them. On the authority, therefore, of the opinion to which he had before alluded, namely, that without a specific clause for that purpose they could not exercise a discretional authority, a clause to that effect had been drawn up, which it was proposed to introduce into the bill, in order to enable the Bank to establish branches throughout the country, on such a footing as would render them beneficial to themselves and of important advantage to the country. If, however, it should not lead to the establishment of branch banks by the Bank of England, he trusted that they would have liberality enough to say, that although they themselves were not disposed to act upon this plan, they would not stand in the way of allowing the formation of other banks, on a principle calculated to afford the same advantages to the public. He
565
The Marquis of Lansdown
did not now mean to offer any objection to this clause. He would, however, suggest to their lordships the propriety of introducing a clause providing, in case the Bank of England should think proper to establish branches, that they should be bound to pay their notes in gold, in the same part of the country in which they had been issued. Great inconvenience had been experienced in Ireland in this respect, in consequence of the Bank of Ireland having attempted to refuse paying their notes in gold in the country where they had been issued by their branch banks, stating that they were only bound to pay them in Dublin. The point, however, he believed had been given up by the Bank; but then he had been given to understand, that they had attempted to evade that, by issuing Bank of Ireland notes dated from Dublin. He should hope that no such evasion would be attempted by the Bank in this country; and that it would be provided by the bill, that they should pay in gold in those places where branch banks would be established. He trusted the noble lord would see the importance of introducing such a provision; because, without it, whenever a panic occurred in any part of the country, a run would take place upon other banks, while none could be made upon the branch banks of the Bank of England, inasmuch as they could only be compelled to pay in gold in London.
Lord Ellenborough
was of opinion, that this was the most important clause in the bill. He was disposed to give every fair facility to the establishment of branch banks; but he greatly feared, that without a very considerable enlargement of the capital of the Bank, branch banks could not be established with any benefit to the country. Under the present system, the branch banks would be counteracted by the country banks; and ignorant of the extent of their circulation, and unable to meet it, they would find it impossible to do that duty which the country would require at their hands. Now, he thought these branch banks ought to have a metallic capital, that would be capable of
566
The bill was ordered to be recommitted to-morrow.
HOUSE OF COMMONS.
Monday, February 20, 1826.
PETITION OF MR. KENRICK.
Mr. Denison
said, he had received a petition from Mr. Kenrick, whose case was before the House on Friday last, with a request that it might be presented. He would, therefore, move that it be printed, in order that it might be in the hands of members before the discussion on Mr. Kenrick's case tomorrow.
567
The Speaker
requested the hon. member to state in what character this paper was presented; for, as far as he could understand it, there was no proper prayer to it.
Mr. Denison
said, that the prayer was, that the House would consider the statement. The object was, to have it printed, and put into the hands of members before they entered upon the discussion of the case.
The Speaker
said, that if it was a petition, the House would be much inclined to receive it, as great latitude was allowed to petitioners, especially to such as stood in the situation of the individual accused. But then, if it was no petition, but simply a defence, that was matter for his counsel and evidence; and he did not know how the House could receive this paper in the double character of petition and defence. It was certainly contrary to the usual practice.
Mr. Wynn
observed, that the paper was merely a defence, and no petition, and had a copy of a letter attached to it on the same paper, which could not be regularly annexed to a petition.
Mr. Abercromby
said, that this was certainly a most extraordinary and irregular proceeding. The House had gone into a committee on the charge, and had allowed Mr. Kenrick to attend by his counsel, witnesses, and agents. But, after he had an opportunity of fully making his defence, was he now to come with a statement of his own view of the facts? Any statement he had to make would be made by his counsel; but it was not to be tolerated, that he should proceed in this most extraordinary and irregular manner. How did the case stand with respect to Mr. Peters? He had brought a charge against that most respectable gentleman in his absence, after he had an opportunity of cross-examining him at the bar, and had declined to do so. He expressed his
568
Mr. Denison
said, he had considered it his duty to present the petition, and the House would dispose of it as it thought proper.
Mr. Wynn
wished to ask the Speaker, whether it was regular to present a petition with a copy of a letter referred to in the body of it subjoined to the petition, on the same paper?
The Speaker
replied, that it was irregular, and that there was the double objection, that the copy only was produced, the original being in existence. It was obvious that the paper could not be printed.
Mr. Peel
said, that the House certainly would be extremely unwilling to refuse, upon a mere point of form, to hear any thing which an accused person might think material for his defence; but this was certainly not a petition, and no injustice would be done by rejecting the paper presented in this shape, since every statement of that kind might be stated by counsel in the defence.
The petition was withdrawn.
PRIVILEGE OF MEMBERS TO BE EXEMPTED FROM SERVING ON JURIES.
Mr. Holford
rose, for the purpose of calling the attention of the House to a subject in which, as he conceived, some of its privileges were concerned. He had received, some short time ago, a summons to attend as a juror in the court of Exchequer, and for not attending he was fined. This, he conceived, was contrary to the provisions of the late act for the regulation of juries. In the former act, it was understood, that members of parliament were exempted from attending as jurors during the sitting of parliament, and he had thought that the same provision was continued in the late act. He had felt it his duty to mention the circumstance to the House, but he was not prepared to submit any motion on the subject.
Mr. Davenport
said, that he was in the same situation as his hon. friend. He had been summoned, and fined for non-attendance.
Mr. Scarlett
said, that the courts were
569
Mr. Wynn
expressed his surprise that the learned gentleman should not be aware of the fact, that members of parliament, as matter of privilege, were exempted from attending as jurors during the sitting of parliament. The duties of a member of parliament were so important, that he thought there could be no doubt that they exempted members from being obliged to attend in any of the courts as jurors. There was a case which the learned gentleman would no doubt recollect, in which lord Hardwicke fined the member for Shoreham for not attending as a juror, parliament not being at that time sitting; but he did not deny the principle, that when parliament was sitting, the member would be exempted from attending.
Mr. Scarlett
repeated his remark, that the excuse would be admitted by the courts of law, but not recognized as a matter of right.
Mr. Ellice
said, that he, too, had unfortunately been fined in the same court for not attending as a juror, though an excuse was offered for him by another juror, that he was prevented from attending by his duties as a member of parliament. The court, however, refused to accept of that excuse, and held that the privilege of a member of parliament did not exempt him from attending as a juror.
Mr. Peel
said, it appeared to him, that there was no doubt that the privilege of parliament did protect a member from liability to attend as a juror, and he thought the decision of lord Hardwicke, just cited, was decisive that it had been so held in the courts. If, however, there now existed any doubts on the subject from the wording of the new act, he thought it should be expressed more clearly; but, as it appeared to him, the thing was already quite clear. If it did not appear in the same light to any of the courts, means should be taken to set the matter at rest.
Mr. Abercromby
had no doubt that the privilege of parliament did exempt members from being called upon as jurors. If, however, any doubts arose in other quarters, they should be removed by a precise exemption.
Mr. Wynn
repeated his opinion, that there could be no doubt that members were exempted from attending as jurors
570
Mr. J. Williams
said, he was present in the court of Exchequer when the fine was ordered to be levied on his hon. friend (Mr. Ellice). The opinion of the Court was not given without a reference to the late act. That act was referred to, and it appeared that the Court did not consider the words sufficient to exempt members on the ground of their privilege. His own opinion was, that it did, and it had always been so held; but the Court was of a contrary opinion; and he would say, only that he did not wish to bring the learned baron of the Exchequer to the bar of the House, that his decision was in contempt of their privileges.
Mr. Peel
said, he had not made any special exemption of members of parliament in the late bill for regulating juries, because he thought the question already established. An exemption of practising physicians had been made; but it was not conceived that there was any necessity for mentioning what it was supposed had been already so well understood. However, it would be proper that the point should be placed beyond further doubt.
PROMISSORY NOTES BILL—PETITION
Lord Folkestone
said, he held in his hand a petition which he had been requested to present to the House, and which proceeded from an individual who, he should make no scruple in saying was, in his opinion, one of the ablest men in the country, and he believed, when he informed the House that the petitioner was Mr. William Cobbett, most hon. members would agree with him in this opinion. The petitioner stated, that he had, for the last sixteen years, observed the calamitous effects which had at different times during that period been caused all through the country by the fluctuations which had occasionally taken place in the value of the currency; that
571
Colonel Johnson
seconded the motion, and observed, that it was with feelings of great regret that he found the chancellor of the Exchequer had been induced to vary from his original resolutions. Such variation had raised apprehensions in his mind, that something would again occur to defeat the measure, and prevented his feeling any certainty that it would ever be carried into execution.
The Petition was then brought up, and read as follows:—
"The Petition of William Cobbett, of Kensington, in the county of Middlesex,
"Most humby sheweth—1. That your petitioner, perceiving that there is a bill before your honourable House, 'to limit, and after a certain period, to prohibit, the circulation of promissory notes, under a limited sum, in England,' most respectfully begs leave to pray your honourable House to reflect on the evils that may proceed from such bill, if unaccompanied by other measures, which other measures do not appear to be in the contemplation of your honourable House.
"2. That the last sixteen years have witnessed four sudden changes in the value of money; that every change has been attended with great masses of ruin; that, at every change, the working classes have been sunk deeper and deeper in poverty and want, till, at last, they present a spectacle of human wretchedness and degradation, such as the world never
572
"3. That, in the above-mentioned bill, now before your honourable House, your humble petitioner sees a design to cause gold and silver to be the circulating money of England, that he knows, as well as he knows that fireburns, that if gold and silver be the circulating money of England, that more than half the present nominal amount of the taxes cannot be levied, without producing ruin and wretchedness absolutely insupportable; and that, therefore, while he expresses his gratitude to your honourable House for your laudable design to restore to the people the security given by his majesty's coin, he most humbly, but most earnestly, prays your honourable House to reduce the taxes to an amount not exceeding that which was their amount before the small paper-money supplanted the coin of his majesty. And your petitioner will for ever most humbly pray,
"WILLIAM COBBETT."
"February 20, 1826."
Ordered to lie on the table, and to be printed.
PROMISSORY NOTES BILL.
On the order of the day for going into a committee on this bill,
Lord A. Hamilton
observed, that on a former occasion, he had applied to know whether this measure was, or was not to apply to Scotland. He had understood the chancellor of the Exchequer to say, that it was intended to apply to Scotland, at the end of three years. He now understood that the prime minister of the country, had said elsewhere, that the intention was, that the bill should be brought in, but should not commence for three years from this time, and should then take three years to complete its operation; thus extending the period for working its effects over six years from this time. He begged to state, that the agitation now pervading Scotland upon this subject was extreme. The Scotch thought this measure hostile to their interests. It was a very different thing to petition for the repeal of a measure, and to petition against a new measure. He had, therefore, a right
573
The Chancellor of the Exchequer
said, the noble lord had somewhat misunderstood what he had said on a former evening, as to his having no intention at present to propose the extension of this bill to Scotland. He certainly wished that the bill for England should first be disposed of; for, in his opinion, the state of the two countries with regard to this question was not precisely similar; and although it seemed to him that the measure would be beneficial for Scotland as well as for England, still, as the adoption or rejection of it might be argued on different grounds for the two countries, it would be a very inconvenient and confused method of proceeding to mix, up the two questions and discuss them together. It was, however, by no means his intention to defer drawing the attention of the House to this question, as it regarded Scotland, beyond the present session; for he understood that a very considerable ferment prevailed in the minds of people there on this subject; and it could not be expected that such ferment would be allayed, so long as it remained in doubt what course the legislature intended to pursue with regard to that country.
Mr. Grenfell
said, that if the new measure proposed for allowing the Bank of England to continue their issue of one and two pound notes should be adopted by the House, he would move that a clause be introduced into the bill, for having a return made every week to the privy council of the number of small notes in circulation in the week preceding; and also an account every quarter of the average amount of small notes issued in that quarter, for the purpose of being published in the London Gazette.
Mr. Calcraft
said, he could not but admire the dexterity which the chancellor of the Exchequer had evinced on the pre-
574
Mr. Whitmore
begged to call the attention of the House to one or two facts bearing on the question before them. He had supported this bill to the present time, and he was anxious to continue that support. He was glad to see the determination of government to carry cash payments, and he hoped the period was not far distant, when they would push the system further than they were now enabled to do. The soundest policy justified such a course of proceeding. The more he considered this subject, the more he reflected upon the large mass of paper which was issued, the more was he convinced; that the principle on which they ought to act was come at, only perhaps it would not go far enough. If they went to the root of the evil, they would do away with the issue of the five-pound notes. If this view were correct, there followed from it, that, whenever there was a large amount
575
l.
l.;
l.
l.
l.
l.;
l.;
l.
576
Mr. Maberly
expressed his dissatisfaction at the course intended to be pursued by the chancellor of the Exchequer, in exempting the Bank of England from the operation of the measures originally submitted to the House by him, for restricting the issues of one and two pound notes. He considered much of the mischief that had lately been witnessed, to be owing to the powers enjoyed at will by the Bank, in limiting or extending their issues; and that the effect of such conduct on their part was, to render the property of every man insecure. They had issued, in October last, 18,000,000
l.
l.
s.
577
s.
l.
578
579
580
Mr. Hume
said, he was fully aware of the anxiety, on the part of the House, to go into the committee; but he must beg leave to detain it for a short time, while he made a few observations. He was sorry to say he could not, after the most serious attention to the subject, bring himself to consider that there was any sound principle of policy in the measure which had been proposed by the chancellor of the Exchequer as a remedy for the evils they had lately suffered. If they took a review of the sentiments delivered by that right hon. gentleman on the occasion of his submitting his proposition to the House, and observed, that he attributed all their misfortunes to the issue of six millions, or four millions, as it was at one time stated, although he believed it not so much as either, of country bank-notes, he was sure they would see grounds for doubting the propriety of the remedy which had been proposed. In his opinion, if the exchanges had been against this country—and against it, at one time, they were—the evil was not at all occasioned by the issue of Bank-notes, and it had, he believed, cured itself by operations altogether independent of the Bank of England. Their issues had not, therefore, remedied that which was clearly remedied without them. Ministers had asserted, in their famous Letter to the Bank directors, that
581
582
l.
l.
l.
l.
l.
l.
583
584
l.
585
l.
l.
586
587
588
589
590
[
See next page
l.
l.
l.
See next page
l.
l.
l.
591
No.1.—ACCOUNT of all FOREIGN LOANS raised in ENGLAND during the year 1824; and an ACCOUNT exhibiting the country contracted with, the capital stock created during the same year, and the balance of money actually remitted from ENGLAND on ACCOUNT of FOREIGN LOANS, either in money or produce.
Date of Contract.
Country contracted with.
Capital Stock created.
Balance of Money actually remitted from England on account of Foreign loans, either in money or produce.
1824.
£.
£.
January
Portugal
5 per cts.
1,500,000
690,000
Ditto
Mexico
5 per cts.
3,200,000
844,000
Ditto
Austria
5 per cts.
3,500,000
170,000
March
Greece
5 per cts.
800,000
252,000
April
Colombia
6 per cts.
4,750,000
3,157,500
May
Peru
6 per cts.
750,000
468,750
July
Buenos Ayres
6 per cts.
1,000,000
540,000
August
Brazil
5 per cts.
1,200,000
616,000
November
Naples
5 per cts.
2,500,000
775,000
December
France, 5 per cents. during the course of 1824.
6,000,000
4,992,000
Total capital stock created in 1824
£25,200,000
Total sums really paid away for Foreign loans
£12,505,250
Deduct Austrian Repayment
2,500,000
Balance money paid by England in 1824 for foreign loans
£10,005,250
No. 2.
Date of Contract.
Country contracted with.
Capital Stock created.
Balance value actually remitted from England on account of Loans, either in Money or produce of Labour
1825.
£.
January
Brazil
5 per cts.
2,000,000
1,060,000
February
Mexico
6 per cts.
3,200,000
1,861,500
Ditto
Greece
5 per cts.
2,000,000
760,000
March
Denmark
3 per cts.
5,625,000
1,757,500
May
Peru
6 per cts.
616,000
388,080
July
Guatemala
6 per cts.
1,428,571⅛
244,543
September
Guadelajara
6 per cts.
600,000
288,000
Commercial Bonds
Total Capital Stock created in 1825
15,469,57⅛
Add capitals created in 1824
25,200,000
Total Capital of foreign loans created in the years 1824 and 1825
£40,669,571
Total amount actually paid for foreign loans, 1825
£6,359,623⅛
592
593
l.
Advanced for Foreign Loans
£8,125,753
Ditto, Foreign Mining Schemes and Adventures
3,097,000
Ditto, for excess of import of Goods, valued at the present low and ruinous prices
6,000,000
Ditto, for more paid for the Goods imported in 1824 and 1825 than can now be obtained, or has been obtained for them by sale, since they were imported, ten per cent. on the total import of 1825, 36,000,000
3,600,000
Total money and labour expended, for which the Market is wanting
£20,822,700
l.
594
l.
l.
595
l.
596
l.
597
Mr. Ellice
rose to second the amendment, not because he coincided in all the opinions of his hon. friend, but because he wished to see the present measure fairly brought before the House. He thought, besides, that it would be advisble to go into a committee on the subject, before the House resolved upon departing from the old and approved practice.
Colonel Davies
rose to express his disapprobation of the original measure. His hon. friend, the member for Aberdeen, had, in the course of his speech, put forth the principles held by the late Mr. Ricardo, whose disciple he avowed himself to be. The great advantages, however, which were supposed to be derivable from a paper-currency convertible at will into gold, were not so obvious. The efficacy of such a currency had been tried, and the result was now before the House, because such a currency we had at this moment. With respect to the system of calling upon bankers to make deposits by way of security for the notes they should issue, he thought it could never be brought into general operation. He had discussed the subject with a very intelligent country banker, from whom he learnt that the whole of the body to which he belonged expressed the greatest disinclination to act upon such a system. With regard to the observations of the hon. member for Northampton, on the exchanges, he did not think there was such a variation in them as would warrant the inferences
598
l.
l.
l.
l.
l.
l.
599
Mr. Secretary Canning
rose, not for the purpose of entering into any discussion, but merely to submit to the House the situation in which they stood with regard to the business before them. He would leave it to the good sense of the House to decide, whether it was not better to proceed fairly with the business of the day, and place his right hon. friend, the chancellor of the Exchequer, in the only situation in which he could possibly answer the appeals which had been made to, him for three hours, without transgressing all order, and contravening not only the courtesy but the convenience of the House. What was very extraordinary was, that the hon. member opposite seemed to think that he was paying something like a personal compliment to the Speaker in pursuing the course which he had adopted. He believed he might venture to say, that the Speaker did not enter into the feelings of the hon. member, and would not at all take it amiss if he were allowed to leave the chair, for the purpose of the discussion taking place, the fruits of which would come before him in the usual way. Gentlemen might, he knew, oppose the question that the Speaker do leave the chair, as often as they thought proper; but, if that course were pursued, there would at once be a stop to all business. He trusted that his right hon. friend would not be betrayed into anticipating what he had to say, and that gentlemen would not object to the House resolving itself into a committee, in which they might state their objections to the principle of the measure, as well as to its details.
The amendment was negatived; and the House having resolved itself into a committee,
The Chancellor of the Exchequer
said, that the most convenient course to pursue was to proceed with the bill, until he
600
On the question that the first clause be agreed to.
Lord Folkestone
remarked, that a general alteration ought to be made in the bill, as a consequence of repealing the 37th would be to revive the 15th and 17th of the late king, whereby the holders of small notes would never be able to get value for them, as those acts said they were null and void altogether.
The Chancellor of the Exchequer
thought the noble lord had misunderstood the clause; but to prevent any mistakes, it might be as well to omit the word "circulate," if the noble lord thought it would have the effect which he attributed to it.
The Attorney-General
observed, that the clause alluded to said, that no promissory note should be issued, not circulated: now that was only a prohibition to the issue or re-issue of notes, but not to their circulation by the holders of them.
Some other verbal amendments having been disposed of,
The Chancellor of the Exchequer
rose to propose the amendment, of which he had given notice, relative to the power to be given to the Bank of England of stamping small notes up to the tenth October next. He felt grateful to the House for the manner in which they had received the appeal of his right hon. friend, for permitting the Speaker to leave the chair. He had thus, through the indulgence of the House, been permitted at an earlier period of the night to proceed in the explanation of his views on the important point he was about to submit to their consideration, and in removing the many mistakes which, from a misapprehension of its real object, and probable results, seemed to have taken possession of the minds of many honourable gentlemen. He thought it a little hard that he should have been treated as he had been, both
601
602
603
604
605
606
607
608
Mr. Abercromby
said, he had never heard a speech that had gone so short a way in producing a favourable impression in support of a proposition, as that just delivered by the right hon. gentleman. He was directly opposed to the amendment, because he conceived it to be quite at variance with the general principles which they all had in view. The great difficulty under which he laboured was the want of ability to do justice to the objections which he felt against the measure; and, in one respect, he concurred with the right hon. gentleman, who had said that his objection would be immoveable, if he thought it could defeat the general principle, in favour of which the House had voted before. But his principle objection was, that the House was called upon to support the inconsistency of the right hon. gentleman, without having had it shewn that any thing had occurred since last Monday to justify the change. And this course was the more objectionable, when we were endeavouring, in the face of the difficulties which beset us, to place our currency on sound and true principles. Nothing was more desirable, than that there should be no wavering or vacillation
609
610
611
612
Mr. John Smith
said, he differed entirely from his hon. and learned friend who had just sat down. He was as anxious as any man to remove, as speedily as possible, the panic which had recently taken place; but he felt, with the chancellor of the Exchequer, that the measure was not clearly understood. The recent distresses were not, in his opinion, to be attributed to the circulation of one and two pound notes; but to a series of other events. The chancellor of the Exchequer had, in the course of his speech on that and other occasions, talked about giving security to country bankers, but there was another body to whom he wished to give security and support; he meant the company of the Bank of England. What had been the conduct of that establishment in December last, when the panic which had run through the country was at its height? They had come forward with a degree of spirit and promptitude which could not be too highly praised, to support the credit and character of the trading interests of the country. They had, it was well known, afforded the most liberal assistance. Let the House recollect what had taken place in distant parts of the country. Individuals and companies of persons had applied for and received large sums of money from the Bank of England, and when the alarm became great, they turned round upon the Bank and said, "Now, we request you to give us gold for all this paper." The Bank of England had advanced, in the course of one week, more than a million in gold, and finding the demand for assistance still continue, they showed their good sense by returning to an issue of one and two pound notes. This they were entitled to do under the existing law, and had only abstained from doing by a feeling, that their circulation might be avoided without injuring the country. A similar circulation had been continued throughout the
613
l.
614
Mr. Pearse
said, that there was no reasonable ground for apprehension that the Bank of England would unnecessarily issue small notes. The period of the bank restriction had been referred to; but he begged the House to bear in mind, that at that time they issued their notes under no liability. Now the case was different; for they were bound to pay their notes in bullion. While much praise had been bestowed upon the Bank from all sides, charges had also been brought against the directors which were not altogether fair. At one time, it was said, they encouraged the circulation by over-issue; and, at another time, reduced it by undue contraction. In this latter charge, all sides agreed; but, in truth, neither the one charge nor the other was correct. It was only when there was a want of paper, and the bankers would not give discounts, that these issues were made. Truth and justice called upon him to declare, in the face of the House, that the charges brought against the Bank were not founded in fact.
Mr. Secretary Canning
said, he presented himself thus early in the debate, because he believed that the House needed only clearly to understand the measure in discussion, and to see that measure in the light in which it was meant to be brought forward, to come without difficulty to a fair, just, and conscientious conclusion. He agreed in the truth of the first observation of the hon. member who had last spoken; but not in the latter point, as to the manner or principle upon which the Bank was accustomed to regulate its issues. But this was a matter of no consequence; because the question was not, whether the Bank should have unlimited power to issue, or should be altogether restrained from issuing a particular description of notes; but whether the latitude given to the Bank, by the present amendment would, such as it was, defeat the original measure. Now, the hon. and learned member who opened the opposition to the amendment said, that no reason had been given by ministers, why that course which had not been proposed by them, or supported on the discussion a week since, should now be presented for the approval of the House? To that observation there were two answers: and the first was, that the measure before the
615
l.
616
617
618
l.
l.
619
620
Mr. Tierney
said, he would endeavour to follow the right hon. gentleman, as nearly as he could, through the course of his observations. If he could be satisfied that the effect of adopting this amendment would be that which the right hon. gentleman had stated, he for one would certainly agree to it. But it was because he was of opinion, that no such effect would follow its adoption—it was because he was convinced that, in 1829, the legislature and the country would be placed in just the same difficulty as they had now to contend with, that he felt himself obliged to oppose the proposition. It appeared to him very strange, that gentlemen who had opposed the principle of the bill, without this new clause, was now
621
622
l.
623
624
l.
625
626
Mr. T. Wilson
said, it was well known that many parts of the country were at that time in a state of starvation, for the want of some sort of currency. In Yorkshire they were in such distress that the manufacturers could not pay their men, except by orders on the butcher and the baker. This was a growing evil, which called loudly for correction. If the country bankers were such a dangerous set of men, it was the more necessary that the people should have the security afforded by the amendment. No doubt, a circulating medium of small notes was, at present, necessary for the country; and if country bankers withdrew their paper earlier than the date prescribed, so much the better.
Mr. Grenfell
wished, as the right hon. gentleman had alluded to the eulogium which he had passed on the conduct of the Bank to say a word in explanation. He never entertained any sentiments with respect to the transactions of the Bank which he did not at present feel. With respect to the immediate point in question, it happened that a meeting of the Bank proprietors had been called, and the conduct which the directors had pursued in the latter end of December—conduct which tended to restore public confidence—was noticed as worthy of approbation. He, in consequence, moved a vote of thanks to that body, with this limitation—"that those thanks were voted with reference to the conduct of the Bank in the late crisis of difficulty and danger to the mercantile world." This acknowledgment he thought they merited.
Mr. Secretary Peel
said, that, although he felt that the arguments of his right hon. friend, the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs, had exhausted the subject, still he thought k right to state the grounds on which he was induced to give his support to the amendment. He must,
627
628
Mr. Ellice
defended himself from the charge of inconsistency. His real fault was only this—that he had yielded, in an abstract opinion, to the pressure of circumstances. The question of free trade would soon come before the House, and
629
Mr. Irving
said, that there was nothing
630
Mr. Baring
assured the committee that it was not his intention to take up more than a few minutes of their time. Whatever difficulty other gentlemen might have to prove the consistency and to justify the inconsistency of their opinions upon this subject, he could have no difficulty in proving that, he was perfectly consistent in now supporting the measure with the clause, though he had opposed the measure without the clause. He begged leave to remind them, what the position was which he had taken on the former discussion. He did not condemn the principle of that measure. On the contrary, no gentleman could be more fully convinced than he was, that the circulation of small notes was a perfect nuisance; and that with that evil present there could be no dependence on a return to a metallic currency. But his doubt was, that they could not, as he then expressed himself, come at their purpose by a direct course, "as the crow flies." Gentlemen talked of two years as an improbable period for attaining that object. The fact was, that two years would be more than enough time, if they could go on progressively throughout each of the four-and-twenty-months. But experience proved, that the moment they cried down any portion of the circulation, it went too fast. His complaint was, that the speeches and papers of ministers had acted like the cry of "mad dog" on the country notes, and that not only had the bankers themselves hastily drawn in their circulation through fear of being run down, but the whole country, as if nauseating that currency which before was found so useful, threw it upon the banks in overwhelming quantities. He admitted that it was a desirable object to return to a metallic currency. But, they seemed to wish to pass from a state of over-abundant circulation to the most straitened limits of it, not considering, that the very excess of paper, which was alleged to exist, the great extent to which schemes and
631
Sir John Newport
said, he was anxious to explain to the House why, when he had supported the measure originally, he could not support the amendment. He
632
Lord Folkestone
said, that consistency required him to vote against the amendment. He confessed that, if the bill had been introduced without any modification of the measure as to the time to be allowed to country banks and the Bank of England, he should have felt less objection to it. But, as he saw ministers in the act of yielding, and yielding, too, upon a point which they had declared to be mainly important, he had no hope that they would be able to resist the external pressure of circumstances on another occasion, and really get rid of the one and two pound notes. Their firmness had been tried already upon this very subject. The House was now in a committee on a bill to put an end to one and two pound notes at the end of three years; and only four years ago, from the pressure of circumstances, they were induced to pass that very bill which this was meant to repeal; and now there was a clause proposed which, in effect, wholly prevented that repeal. What reason had they to hope that they could ever arrive at the metallic currency, after so many experiments and failures? He had objected to the small-note bill at the time, because it prevented the country from recurring to that standard; and now the House were rushing upon a measure which was introduced to prevent the repeal of that act from being carried into effect. The right hon. the President of the Board of Trade had stated, that some of the evil of a former period had been caused by collecting gold in order to return to cash payments. At that time the Bank had a great quantity of gold accumulated in its coffers, and the measure of, 1822 was for getting it out. But it appeared that the measure of getting gold, out of their coffers had had no good effect; for, in five months afterwards, when four millions had been drawn from the Bank, they passed the bill to allow of the circulation of small notes. If difficulties were then great, what must they now be? The experiment, he contended, had been already tried, and he thought the House was only rushing into the difficulties from which they had extricated themselves by
633
Mr. Monck
said, that the Bank of England note was the worst for circulation, as it brought with it the dreadful hazards of forgery. The parliament and the public were anxious to return to a metallic currency, and the scarcity of gold was the alleged difficulty. If gold was so scarce, silver was not. What objection could there be to leaving it to the bankers to pay in either as it suited them? That there were too many notes in circulation, would prove but an awkward confession, and that those who had issued them were not entitled to any confidence from the public. It had been said, that there was something approaching to mutiny among the country bankers. In his opinion, if any thing approaching to mutiny existed, it was among the people who held the notes, and who flocked in with them to demand gold. There had been meetings in Manchester and other places, where the mechanics had resolved not to take one-pound notes of country bankers. He highly approved of the conduct of the country bankers, and could not conscientiously give his support to the amendment.
Mr. Brougham
said, he could not go to the vote, without stating his opinion with regard to the amendment. With his right hon. friend, the member for Waterford, he had hoped the chancellor of the Exchequer would have enabled him to vote for the clause, as he had lent his support to the bill, and he did not feel the least disposition to give the measure any opposition—calculated, as he thought it was, to promote the restoration of the crippled commerce of this country, and guard it from similar convulsions, by restraining the issue of one and two pound notes, and restoring, at that favourable time, a healthy state of the currency. He had listened attentively to the arguments of the right hon. the chancellor of the Exchequer, and also to the more cogent statements of the right hon. the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs; but, like his right hon. friend, his mind was made up not to vote for the clause; the doing which was quite consistent, in his opinion, with the support he had given to the bill. He considered the clause as founded on principles of an opposite nature from those on which he understood the measure to be framed, and on which he supported it; and, because the clause was
634
635
636
637
638
Mr. Huskisson
said, it had not been his intention to have troubled the House with any observations of his at so late a period of the debate; nor should he have arisen
639
640
l.
641
The committee divided: Ayes 187. Noes 24. Majority 163.
List of the Minority.
Abercromby, J.
Monck, J. B.
Althorp, viscount
Newman, J.
Blake, sir F.
Newport, sir J.
Brougham, H.
Nugent, lord
Chamberlayne, H.
Rickford, J.
Davies, colonel
Russell, lord J.
Ellice, Ed.
Russell, lord W.
Hobhouse, J. C.
Tierney, rt. hon. G.
Ingleby, sir W.
Whitmore, W. W.
Johnson, col.
Wood, alderman
Knight, Robert
Teller
Lamb, hon. G.
Maberly, J.
Lord Folkestone
Macdonald, J.
642
Mr. Hume
then declared his intention to move the introduction of two clauses into the bill. One giving a summary power to magistrates to compel bankers to pay their notes in cash. Every act of parliament relating to banks, down to the 37th George 3rd, contained a clause to that effect. The other clause would go to compel bankers to deposit in the hands of certain commissioners, funds to the amount of the small notes issued by them. It would, he thought, greatly check over-issues if these commissioners were empowered to convert the stock, so in their custody, into money, for the discharge of the bankers notes, such a measure would produce great confidence. He was likewise anxious that the bankers should be required to pay their notes in the several places where they might be issued. The currency could not be said to be settled on a convenient footing, if persons were obliged to travel up to London to procure cash for their notes.
Mr. Hudson Gurney
said, that if the clauses proposed by the hon. member for Aberdeen were adopted, they would go to extinguish the small circulation altogether; as no banker, in his sober senses, as things now stood, would under them issue a note.
The bill was reported, and ordered to be taken into further consideration on Thursday.
HOUSE OF COMMONS.
Tuesday, February 21, 1826.
REPORT FROM THE COMMITTEE OF
Mr. Bennett
said, he wished to obtain information from the Speaker to guide him in the situation in which he stood. He had, in pursuance of the orders of the House, to attend a committee to-morrow morning, and he was also summoned as a juror in Westminster-hall. Now, how was it possible for him to obey their orders, and at the same time discharge his duty to his country in the situation of juror? He was at a loss how to proceed under these circumstances, and he threw himself on the Speaker for the benefit of his advice.
The Speaker
said, the House was aware that this very question had been referred to the consideration of a committee of privileges, which bad not yet made their report. The only answer he could give at present to the question
643
Mr. Wynn
, shortly after, reported, from the committee of privileges, to whom the matter of complaint made by a member of the House of his being summoned as a jury-man in the Court of Exchequer, in the case of the King against Steel, was referred, that they had examined the matter of the said complaint, and had come to the following resolutions:
1. "That it appears to your committee to be amongst the most ancient and undoubted privileges of parliament, that no member shall be withdrawn from his attendance on his duty in parliament to attend on any other court.
2. "That this privilege, with respect to service upon juries, has been repeatedly asserted, as will be seen from the three following cases:
"On the 22nd November, 1597, sir Edward Hobby moved the House for privilege for sir John Tracie, being a member of this House, and now presently at the Common Pleas, to be put on a jury. Whereupon the Serjeant of this House was presently sent with the mace to call the said sir John Tracie to his attendance in this House; which was thereupon so done accordingly, and the said sir John then returned to this House.
"On the 6th of May, 1607, it was informed that sir Thomas Biggs and sir Thomas Lowe, two members of the House, were by the sheriff returned in the court of King's-bench, jurors upon an attaint between John Macham, tenant to the lord Barkley, and Edward Beard, tenant to the lord viscount Lisle, and it was conceived that in this case, by the privilege of the House, they ought to be spared from their attendance:—Which was ordered accordingly, and Mr. Serjeant commanded to go with his mace and deliver the pleasure of the House to the secondary of the King's-bench, the court then sitting.
"On the l5th of May, 1628, sir William Alford returned of a jury this day in
644
3. "That this privilege, among others, appears to be expressly reserved by the words of the last clause of the Act 6 Geo. 4, c. 50, for consolidating and amending the laws relative to jurors and juries."
Mr. Wynn
observed, that as, no doubt, the fines had been imposed in consequence of a misconstruction of the act, he thought the House would sufficiently assert its privileges by agreeing to this report, and proceeding no further in the affair.
Mr. Hume
wished to know in what manner the decision of the House, on this subject was to be communicated to the learned baron of the Exchequer; for it was well known that printing the proceedings of that House was held to be illegal.
The Speaker
said, that the hon. member ought to know, that one of the first orders of the session was for the printing the votes of the House, by which its proceedings could be known. There were besides the Journals of the House in which the proceedings were recorded, and which were accessible by the public, in consequence of the permission given to parties to sell them.
Mr. Holford
thought, that the privileges of members were sufficiently asserted in the report. He would not therefore take any further proceeding.
The report was agreed to, and ordered to be printed.
JOINT-STOCK COMPANIES—MEXICAN
Mr. Hobhouse
rose to present a petition, in which he requested the attention of the House. It related to a subject to which he had before adverted, and to which, notwithstanding all that had been said, he could not help attributing a great portion of the present distress—he meant Joint-stock Companies. When hon. members considered that every one of the shares in those bubbles which was thrown on the market was a bad piece of currency, they would not be surprised at the extent of the evil. The loss occasioned by the pitch to which these ruinous speculations were carried, if the highest rate of premium and the lowest rate of discount were considered, would, he had no doubt, be found to fall little short of 14,000,000
l.
645
l.
l.
646
l.
l.
647
Ordered to lie on the table.
BEAR-BAITING AND DOG-FIGHTING
Mr. Martin of Galway
, rose, pursuant to notice, to introduce a bill for the more effectual prevention of bear-baiting, dog-fighting, and other cruel sports. It was, he observed, so very unusual to oppose a bill on the motion for its introduction, that he felt it incumbent on him not to take up much of the time of the House. He would therefore reserve himself to answer any arguments by which his application might be opposed. The bill for which he should move had this recommendation to the representatives of the people, that it was generally approved of by their constituents throughout the country. He held in his hand a list of fifty-two petitions, presented from some of the most populous cities and towns of the kingdom, praying that an end might be put to these cruel sports. These disgraceful scenes were carried on in places called pits, and in no places were they more cruel and disgusting than in that called the Patrician-pit in the neighbourhood of that House. It had become the duty of parliament to put an end to these enormities. He would conclude by moving for leave to bring in his bill.
The Attorney-General
said, that the merits of this case had been so frequently discussed, that he felt it would not be necessary to make any further comments upon it. He would therefore confine himself to stating, that he would oppose the bill. [Cries of "Question, question."]
Mr. Martin
said, he could hardly persuade himself that a case which had come to the House recommended by the inhabitants of fifty-two respectable places would have been met by cries of "question, question." The hon. members who raised those cries could not, surely, be aware of so many petitions being before them on the subject, otherwise they would not have thought it decent to limit the expression of their opinions to that brief
648
649
Mr. William Smith
said, he should think himself unworthy of a seat in that House if he was deterred by the apprehension of ridicule, from giving his opinion upon a question in which the morals and happiness of the country were much involved. He thought the country much indebted to the hon. member, for exposing himself in bringing forward this measure, to that species of treatment which was very unworthy on the part of those by whom it was practised. Hon. gentlemen must oppose the bill upon one of three grounds. Perhaps they did not believe the stories which the hon. gentleman told. For his own part, he did believe them, because they were published in the newspapers from time to time, and nobody contradicted them. Perhaps they thought the present laws sufficient to put down these sports. If they were, why were they not enforced? If they thought it was of any advantage to the country that these sports should take place, let them say so, and he should then know better how to answer their arguments. He thought there was a great misunderstanding about these matters. Gentlemen apprehended that they rose above vulgar prejudices and were great philosophers, because they considered the lower class of people entitled to their own amusements. Such an opinion, so far from being philosophic or philanthropic, was founded on an unworthy motive. He thought it arose, though gentlemen were not aware of it, rather from a contempt for the lower class of people. It was as much as to say, "poor creatures, let them alone; they have few amusements, let them enjoy them." It was similar to the language which, for a long period of time, was common in the colonies—"As long as they work that is all we want, let them seek their own amusements; what signifies it troubling them about morals; we don't care about these, let them take their own way." He thought these sentiments did no honour to the parties who entertained them. Let those who wished the people to be nothing more than hewers of wood, and drawers of water, entertain
650
Colonel Wood
said, he certainly thought, last session, that the House had gone far enough in legislating upon this subject; but, in the course of the last summer, a most brutal, cowardly, and atrocious scene was permitted to take place at Warwick. He alluded to the lion fight. Every gentleman who had read an account of that disgraceful scene must be of opinion that the laws were deficient; for he was quite sure that, if the magistrates had felt they had power to put a stop to it, they would have interfered. That scene was a disgrace to human nature; and some law ought to have sufficient force to prevent a similar occurrence. The noble animal which had been so tormented was more worthy of protection than its brutal owner.
Sir Robert Wilson
wished to know whether such horrible crimes could not be punished by the existing law, without an expensive process, which rendered the punishment extremely difficult.
Mr. R. Colborne
said, he was one of those who did not like this system of legislating. If these sports were to be put down, there were sports of the higher classes which should be put down also. It was rather curious that, when the hon. member for Galway got leave to bring in a bill of this nature, he always contrived to have it passed through its stages at one or two in the morning. He would allow that one bill which the hon. member had brought in was of a beneficial nature. He gave him full credit for that bill, inasmuch as it was of his own production, and he stayed in town to put it in execution; but that bill would become a dead letter if it was not for the active interference of the hon. member; and so would all bills framed in this spirit of legislation. It was often seen that where there were public laws to avenge, there was not much private interference to protect, and the animals were worse off than before. He wished the hon. member would withdraw his bill, in order to revise it, and include in its operation some of the sports of the higher orders.
Sir John Brydges
said, he was not disposed to treat a subject of this importance with levity. Having witnessed the good effects of a former bill of his hon. friend, he could not but vote for this measure.
651
Mr. Martin
said, that the fact of tearing out the tongue of the bull was authenticated to him by the clergyman of the parish where the occurrence took place. The hon. member for Oxfordshire could confirm what he said.
Mr. Secretary Peel
said, he could not approve of those personal appeals which the hon. member for Galway thought proper to make to his hon. and learned friend; and, as to the insinuations that his lion, and learned friend would injure himself in the estimation of those whose suffrages he was about to court, he could only say, that if his hon. and learned friend stood up, as he always had done, in a fair and manly way, to avow his princiciples, and if, when a proposition was submitted to the House, which appeared to him to originate in a mistaken notion of humanity, he expressed his disapprobation of such measure, there was little danger that he would lower himself in the estimation of those whose support he should solicit. He felt the more anxious to express his disapprobation of the way in which his hon. and learned friend had been treated, because he entertained the same opinion with him upon this bill. If this measure were now for the first time submitted to the consideration of the House, he should perhaps have thought it expedient to entertain it. But it was by no means a novel question. It had been discussed six or seven times in former sessions, and the House was now as competent as it would be at any future time to come to a sound conclusion upon it. God forbid that he should treat with levity the instances of atrocious cruelty which had been detailed by the hon. member. Nothing could be more disgraceful than levity upon such an occasion. He abominated those deeds of disgusting cruelty as much as any man could do. But the question was, whether or not, upon individual cases of abuse, the House was prepared to make an enactment of
652
The House divided; for the motion 37; against it 76; majority against the motion 39.
653
CATTLE ILL-TREATMENT BILL.
Mr. Martin
, of Gal way, next rose to move for leave to bring in a bill to amend the 3rd George 4th, c. 71, entitled "An Act to prevent the cruel and improper Treatment of Cattle." The hon. gentleman said, that he wished to extend the protection which was granted by former measures to cattle, to all domesticated animals. Why was not a dog entitled to the same protection as a horse? He was prepared to show, by affidavits, that there were numerous instances of dogs being flayed alive. It had been asked, were they to legislate upon individual instances of monstrous cruelty? He would reply by stating a case which had been mentioned to him by Mr. Halls, the magistrate of Bow-street. That gentleman had informed him, that he had seen a parcel of wretches take a dog, flay him alive, taking the skin completely off, put a collar about his neck, and after dragging him a mile, throw him into a river. Mr. Halls added, that, so much were his feelings wrought upon by this exhibition, that he did what was certainly a violation of the law, but was highly to the credit of his humanity—he took the boy who was holding the collar, and flung him into the river after the dog. He (Mr. M.) stated nothing now but what he gave chapter and verse for. As to the fact which he had stated relative to the cutting out of the tongue of a bull, and its being severed from the surrounding integuments by a brutal fellow who had thrust his hand into the animal's mouth for the purpose, and lastly, as to the tongue being handed about the crowd in a plate for money, the person who held it, saying, "please to put something on the tongue," he would appeal for the truth of the statement to the hon. member for Oxfordshire, before whom the offenders, he understood, were brought. Could any one, after hearing such a statement, refuse their protection to the unfortunate animal, who was so often subjected to such treatment? He had taken the opinion of his majesty's Attorney-General on the subject, and, he was happy to say, that the opinion of that learned person, beyond all doubt a good one, was decidedly unfavourable to the legality of such proceedings. The Attorney-General conceived that it was as unlawful to hurt a bull in that manner, as it would be to maim or torture any other animal [The Attorney-General here indulged in a smile]. The learned gentleman might laugh, and no doubt he
654
655
Mr. Butterworth
, in seconding the motion, said he considered the suppression of such nuisances as that which this bill was meant to suppress, of minor consideration, compared with those scenes of outrage and brutality which attended the practice of prize-fighting. When men were hardened and brutalized, by habitually witnessing the violence and bloodshed which accompanied prize-fighting, it was impossible they could think of treating inferior animals with tenderness. He regretted that such exhibitions, instead of being denou ncedby the authorities, were in too many instances allowed to proceed, if not directly encouraged. He had reason to believe, that two years ago a prize-fight took place at Warwick, When the magistrates of that county not Only declined to interfere to prevent such a scene, but caused constables to attend it for the purpose Of preserving order. If this statement were true, nothing could be more disgraceful to those authorities. Such abominable outrages were calculated to brutalize the minds of the mass, and to render them insensible to the quantity of pain which they inflicted on inferior creatures. He trusted the hon. gentleman would turn his attention to the prize-ring, as by suppressing that source of demoralization and depravity, he would be doing more good than he could possibly expect to effect by all his acts against the ill-treatment of cattle.
Mr. Ashurst
said, that he was not present when the hon. member for Gal way had addressed the House on the subject of the bull; but he had been informed that the hon. gentleman had said, that aft individual had torn out the tongue of the bull,
656
Mr. Martin.
—Yes.
Mr. Ashurst
begged leave to say, that a complaint had been made to him of conduct similar to that which the hon. member stated; but when the parties came before him to substantiate that complaint upon oath, it assumed a very different aspect. It appeared that, during the time the bull was getting baited, a ferocious dog, which had been tied up in a House adjoining to the spot where the baiting took place, escaped from his kennel, attacked the bull, and actually bit off a small portion of its tongue. On the witness who, saw this circumstance, being asked whether the tongue had been cut out, he said, that if it was, he did not see it.
Mr. Martin
said, he had an opinion of the Attorney-general, which he would get published, declaring the illegality of bull-baiting.
The Attorney General
said, he did not rise to object to the motion of the hon. member. What precise object he sought to attain by the present bill, he could not comprehend from the hon. member's speech; but, if he thought that his former bill wanted amendment, it was only fair that he should have an opportunity of
657
Mr. Martin
, in reply, stated, that he had a letter from the clergyman in whose parish this bull-baiting had taken place, describing the particulars of it in the terms which he had used.
Leave was given to bring in the bill.
CONDUCT OF MR. KENRICK, IN THE
Mr. Denman
having moved the order of the day for taking into consideration the Minutes of Evidence taken on the 17th instant,
Mr. Butterworth
requested to know, whether Mr. Kenrick still held the situation of recorder of Dover, or whether he had been removed from it?
Mr. Peel
replied, that he did not know
658
Mr. Denman
said, it was not easy for the member for Dover to know any thing of the recorder of Dover, as there was no such officer. There was a high steward in Dover, the nature of whose duties was similar to that of recorder; but before a person was eligible to that situation, it was necessary that his majesty should express his approbation of it. Now Mr. Kenrick had never been nominated by his majesty.
Mr. Denman
said, he rose at a period when it was permitted him to explain, in detail, the grounds upon which the motion had been made; and he felt that it was peculiarly necessary to do so, because, in the course of the preliminary discussion, misconceptions had been betrayed by hon. members, beyond any thing which he could possibly have conceived or anticipated. He little thought that any one in that House could be ignorant that it was the duty of the two Houses of parliament to watch with jealousy the conduct of the judges; and, in case of their betraying any dereliction of duty in the administration of justice, it was their business to address his majesty to remove them from their situations. In former periods of our history, the commissions of the judges were held by a very different tenure from that by which they were held at present. The office of judge was formerly held by a commission, dependent upon the good pleasure of the Crown. They were sometimes appointed, as their commissions expressed it, during their good behaviour, quamdiu se bene gesserint. Between the reigns of James 1st and the Revolution, the former tenure prevailed, and the judges were not
659
660
661
662
663
664
665
666
667
668
669
670
The Attorney General
said, he rose to oppose the motion, giving his hon. and learned friend, at the same time, full credit for having introduced it solely from a pure and conscientious sense of public duty. But, at the same time, after all that he had heard, he felt bound to come to a conclusion very different to that at which his hon. and learned friend had arrived. He felt that his hon. and learned friend had no right to bring into that House one grave and specific charge, and then turn round and call upon them to convict the accused party upon another. His hon. and learned friend stated, that he did not wish to proceed upon his first charge against Mr. Kenrick, but that there was another and a graver charge of which that
671
672
673
674
675
676
677
Mr. Denman
shortly replied. He said, that under all the circumstances of the case, he should not press the House to a division; but he was, at the same time, bound to declare, that his opinions remained unaltered, and that if he had the giving or refusing of judicial offices, he would not confer any situation on Mr. Kenrick, Neither had his hon. and learned friend ventured to declare, that if he had such power he should consider Mr. Kenrick a fit object of judicial nomination. It was easy to anticipate what would be the result of his motion; but he was nevertheless sure that the people of England would not consider themselves well used, if Mr. Kenrick was continued in office. He decidedly differed from the hon. and learned gentleman as to the effect of the evidence in the case; particularly as to the fact of Mr. Kenrick's having kept back the material witness at Franks's trial. He did not believe that that witness could have proved any thing more than had been proved in his absence. If the House had not been already annoyed by the length
678
The resolution was then put, and negatived.
NAVY ESTIMATES.
The report of the committee of supply was brought up. On the question, that it be read,
Sir F. Ommaney
complained of the low rate of remuneration which clerks in the Admiralty received, and also of the difficulty which the widows of assistant-surgeons experienced in procuring pensions. He meant on a future day to move for an account of all widows of assistant-surgeons who had applied for pensions between 1805 and 1809, when the new regulations were carried into effect.
On the first resolution, "That 30,000 men be employed for the sea-service, for the year 1826, including 9,000 Royal marines,"
Mr. Hume
said, that he must oppose the naval or any other establishment being formed on so large a scale as ministers seemed inclined to propose at the present moment. They had had an opportunity of examining the whole scale on which it was intended that the military establishment should be kept up, and he was justified in saying, that no such establishment was ever thought of at any former period of peace. He therefore wished to know whether there was any prospect of a return to what might fairly be denominated a real peace establishment? At this awful moment, when distress and difficulty threatened the land in every direction—when no immediate relief appeared in view—and when thousands and tens of thousands were in a state of destitution and want, it would become his majesty's ministers to reflect a little on what they were about. He was quite sure that the estimates, so monstrous did they appear, were agreed on at a time when ministers were not aware of the real state of the country. In former times, this country maintained a very different peace establishment, both with respect to the number of men and the magnitude of the expense; and he was anxious to know what were the circumstances at the present moment which required so disproportionate an establishment, as compared with antecedent pe-
679
l.
l.
l.
680
l.
681
l.
l.,
682
Lord John Russell
seconded the amendment. The navy estimates were, he said, framed on a most inordinate scale, and he believed that the army estimates would be found still more extravagant. He would therefore divide the House with his hon. friend.
Sir G. Cockburn
said, he was surprised that the hon. member for Aberdeen should have asserted, that no reason had been assigned for the increase in the navy estimates. He begged the hon. member to recollect, that his hon. friend, in bringing those estimates forward, had stated, that the increase this year was owing to the war in India, and to the necessity which existed for keeping up a naval force in various parts of the world. The general state of the commerce of the country was such, that ministers could not withhold this force, without creating general discontent amongst the merchants. There was no part of the world in which the commerce of Great Britain was not going on at that moment; and armed ships had been sent for abroad for the purpose of protecting that commerce. It was the duty of the Admiralty to see that those vessels were properly distributed. They were obliged to send ships up the Mediterranean, where the British were likely to be attacked by the belligerents on both sides. Again, it was necessary to station vessels of war in the West-Indies; and they were likewise called for on the coast
683
Mr. Robertson
complained, that on so important a vote there was not a minister
684
Mr. Croker
said, that the hon. member for Grampound attributed to the Admiralty the most perfect ignorance of the geographical situation of India.
Mr. Robertson
said, "No:" his expression was, that the Admiralty presumed on the ignorance of the House.
Mr. Croker.
—Well, then, it was not the Admiralty who were ignorant, they were well enough acquainted with the business; but they came down to impose upon parliament with a falsehood ["No, no," from various quarters]. Well then, a fallacy; which was, that some part of the naval force was to be employed in India. Now, he had one short fact to state, in answer to the representation of the hon. gentleman. That very morning it had fallen to his lot as secretary to the Admiralty, to receive despatches from a commander in India. That officer mentioned, that he had collected a naval force to act on the rivers of Rangoon, which he expected would be of the greatest use; and that it consisted of a greater number of men than the total increase of sailors demanded by the present vote.
Sir C. Cole
defended the Admiralty from the charge of an unfair use of favour and affection in promotions. He would mention a proof of the contrary, within his own knowledge. He had taken two deserving youths by the hand, who had done themselves honour in the service; they were the sons of an officer of distinguished merit, but they were for a time over-looked. He no sooner made their case known to the Admiralty than their promotion was secured to them. From
685
Mr. Wyvill
would vote for the amendment, in order to compel ministers to observe the strictest economy.
Mr. Herries
said, that the object of the amendment was not so much to negative the vote for the navy, as to put a stop to the grant of supplies generally; which, of course, the House had the power to do, though it was a power rarely exercised, and not without the statement of more cogent reasons than those urged by the hon. member for Aberdeen. So far from its being true that ministers had no regard for economy, they had evinced, from year to year, the utmost anxiety to promote it; and the time chosen by the hon. gentleman for bringing forward his amendment was not a little extraordinary, recollecting that it was upon bringing up the report of the committee whose resolutions had been agreed to unanimously. With regard to the absence of ministers, he denied that it was necessary that they should attend to listen to the often repeated recommendations of the hon. member. They had observed the most rigid economy in every department, and had carried reductions to the utmost extent. Year after year, and item by item, the navy estimates had been scrutinized with the utmost patience, and the increase of the present vote above that of 1817 had been frequently justified; so that nothing could be more absurd than to treat it as if the augmentation were en-
686
Colonel Davies
thought, that this was a fit opportunity for the exercise of that great economical check which lay in parliament. No good reason had been given for keeping up so enormous an establishment. Were they, in a time of peace and in a season of universal distress to go on voting away large and unnecessary quantities of the public money? Ought they not rather, as guardians of the public purse, when that distress was likely to be aggravated by the measure now in progress, to restore the currency, to force upon government the most rigid economy? He would vote for the amendment, and when the report of the army estimates should come up, he would oppose the reception of it, unless it was accompanied with some pledge of serious reduction on the part of ministers.
Captain Gordon
adverted to the charge, that branches of families of rank and influence were placed in the navy, in order that they might receive pensions out of the pocket of the public. How stood the fact? Any person entering the army must serve six years before he would be entitled to half-pay at all. He knew of several officers of acknowledged gallantry and merit, who, after serving thirty years or more, received a pension of about 1801. Surely these allowances were not burthen-some pensions, but limited rewards for services performed to the country.
Mr. Tremayne
conceived that the strictest economy was necessary in all the departments of the state, and therefore he should vote for the amendment.
Mr. Hobhouse
begged it to be understood that he did not object to the navy estimates generally; but he could not, in the present condition of the country, approve of money being voted without the strictest necessity for it. In thus expressing himself, he trusted he should not be charged with a wish to embarrass ministers. The measures which they had brought forward this session, with the exception of the one last night, had met with his approbation; but, on that occasion, certainly, he thought it to be his duty to vote against them, inasmuch as he conceived they had departed from their own principles. With respect to the necessity of a reduction in the expenditure, he was satisfied, that throughout the country there was but one opinion, that such establishments could not be kept
687
The House divided; for the Amendment 15, Against it 43.
688
List of the Minority.
Allen, J. A.
Russell, lord J.
Cavendish, H.
Taylor, M. A.
Denman, T.
Tremayne, J. H.
Evans, W.
Wyvell, M.
Grattan, J.
Whitbread, S,
Hobhouse, J. C.
Wood, Alderman
Monck, J. B.
TELLERS.
Palmer, F.
Hume, J.
Robertson, Alex.
Davies, Col.
On the resolution, that 896,000
l.
Sir C. Cole
expressed his regret at the hardships which half-pay officers of the navy underwent, in consequence of their being obliged to employ themselves in other professions, owing to the inadequate provision afforded to them by government. Many of those officers had adopted other professions; some had gone into holy orders; and he could not but consider it as a great hardship that their half-pay, which they had so well earned in the service of their country, should in consequence be taken from them.
Mr. Hume
being the first person who had introduced the subject of officers going into the church, could not help offering a few words. He was anxious to learn what steps government would take with respect to officers entering the church. They did not seem to know how to act on the subject; for an order in council had passed taking off the half-pay of officers in holy orders, and a subsequent order had restored it to them again. He could not but consider it a hardship that in this latter order, an exception had been made with respect to marine officers. It was certainly not fair to give half-pay to one class of officers, and to take it from another. On what principle of justice or policy were officers who had served in the marines to be exempted from the benefits enjoyed by others? From all he could learn, there were but four retired marine officers who were in a situation to claim it.
Sir G. Cockburn
said, that the system which had always been adopted by the Admiralty was this—that no person in the naval department should be allowed to enjoy half-pay, unless he consented to join the navy again, should his services be required. It was impossible always to act upon this system, government had been attempted to be imposed upon in more than one instance. A person who came
689
The several resolutions were then agreed to.
HOUSE OF COMMONS.
Wednesday, February 22, 1826.
SOUTH AMERICAN TREATIES BILL.
On the order of the day for the second reading of this bill,
Mr. Robertson
begged the attention of the House to the conduct of his majesty's government, with respect to the commercial interests of the empire. They had sacrificed already too much to a dangerous delusion, namely, that of violating the navigation laws which hitherto protected our carrying trade all over the world, in order to found on it the new system of free trade. These regulations of commerce had not only been extended to the butter trade, but to the ports of an old rival nation in commercial transactions, the Dutch. They, however, viewing every thing which affected their interests with their ancient jealousy, no sooner perceived that England put a small duty on foreign salt, than they repealed the concessions they had made in favour of British commerce. With respect to the state of Buenos Ayres, our ministers had adopted a principle altogether foreign to the constitution of this maritime country, and permitted the import of goods of that country in ships, not only of that, but of other states. Similarly objectionable stipulations had been entered into between this country and the new states of Colombia, which must open the trade of this country to strangers; as it was notoriously the fact, that the rights of citizenship would be acquired in Colombia by a week's residence. He would have been much better satisfied had he had an op-
690
Sir Robert H. Inglis
said, he rose, not to follow the hon. member for Gram-pound in his observations on the commercial points of the Colombian treaty, which alone, as he was willing to admit, were formally and technically before the House, and as little to object to that treaty generally, but to take this opportunity of calling to the attention of the House one article in it which to him appeared to involve interests far higher than those of any commerce, and to commit the character of the country and the cause of religion. The article to which he referred was the 12th, which stipulates that the Colombians resident in England, shall be entitled to exercise their worship in public and in private with most full and ample toleration; while it stipulates that the English, resident in Colombia, shall be permitted to exercise their religion in their own houses only. In reference to the first point, he, as an Englishman, felt almost degraded, that at this day toleration should be granted to a Colombian arriving here, as if it were a new boon; as if it were in the power of the negociators to give it, or to withhold it; as if it were not almost a chemical ingredient in the air of England. But what is the reciprocal advantage obtained by England? The reciprocity, as was said in the American war, is all on one side: the English residents in Colombia are permitted to worship God in their own houses. Every other article in the treaty gives some benefit to one party, and some corresponding benefit to the other,
"Grove nods at grove, each alley has its brother."
691
692
693
The Chancellor of the Exchequer
said, he was sorry his right hon. friend, by whose advice the treaty was concluded, was not present, as he had no doubt that full information would have been afforded by him why this point had not been gained in Colombia as in Buenos Ayres. Although the government at Bogota might have been even disposed to make a more liberal concession as to toleration, still it might not follow that the populace might not have been still averse to so violent an extension of religious privileges. It was a matter of congratulation to all who had known any thing of the state of affairs antecedently in those countries to find that even so much had been gained. He could not sit down without remarking, that it was rather singular his hon. friend who spoke last should not, in his anxiety for introducing a more liberal spirit of complete toleration into Catholic states, have turned his thoughts nearer home, and suggested rather than retarded its adoption in a certain protestant country [hear! and a laugh].
694
Sir R. H. Inglis
begged his right hon. friend to recollect, that he had always made a distinction between granting religious toleration and granting political power.
Mr. Irving
, as a member of the Committee of Foreign Trade, felt himself called on to assure the House, that nothing had been neglected on the part of the committee to secure a just reciprocity of advantages to England in the treaty before the House; nor could he believe that the same object had, for a moment, escaped the observation of that part of his majesty's ministers to whose province these commercial arrangements in strictness belonged.
The bill was then read a second time.
HOUSE OF LORDS.
Thursday, February 23, 1826.
CORN LAWS.
Lord Suffield
presented a petition from Ashton-under-Lyne, praying for the repeal or amendment of the Corn-Laws. He said, he could not lay the petition on the table, without expressing his regret, that the difficulties of this measure had not been grappled with during the present session. He agreed with the noble earl, not then in his place, that the discussion of this question was likely to be gone into with a considerable degree of passion. He was as likely as any one of their lordships to lose, in proportion to his wealth, by a fall in the price of corn, for he derived the greater part of his revenue from land; but he was prepared to make any sacrifice that might be for the good of the nation at large. Whatever measure the ministers might bring forward, which were for the public good, he would not oppose them. Perhaps he was wrong in saying a "sacrifice," for he laid claim to no peculiar patriotism; but he was convinced, that no class of society could profit, for any length of time, by any measure which was an injury to the other classes. He thought it was a mistake to suppose that the repeal of the Corn-laws would injure the land-owners. Of one thing he was sure, that the repeal of those laws would prevent fluctuations in price; which was a serious injury to the landed interest as as well as to the other interests of the society.
The Earl of Lauderdale
expressed his regret, that noble lords, when it was understood that this question was not to
695
HOUSE OF COMMONS.
Thursday, February 23, 1826.
REDUCTION OF DUTIES ON TOBACCO
Mr. Hume
presented a petition from the importers of Tobacco and Snuff in the town of Belfast, praying for a reduction of the duties thereon. He could not forbear remarking, in presenting this petition, that few things could be more beneficial to the fair trader, more destructive to smuggling, or more advantageous to the revenue, than the reduction of the duties upon these articles. In order to illustrate this, it might be sufficient to refer to the state of the trade from 1810 to 1812, as compared with its condition in 1820 to 1822. In the former period, when the duty was per lb. 2
s.
s.
s.
d.
696
Mr. Hart Davis
said, that in consequence of the increase of duties, the number of houses in a certain town engaged in the importation of these articles, had been reduced from eighteen to eight. He agreed, that if the duty were reduced to 1
s.
d.
PROMISSORY NOTES BILL—PETITION
Colonel Johnson
presented a petition from William Cobbett, expressing great alarm at the power given by the Promissory Notes bill to the Bank of England to issue small notes for a certain period, and stating that it would prevent the return to a metallic currency, unless its operations should be counteracted by other clauses. The petition also stated some instances of hardship, in consequence of the country bankers refusing to pay their notes in coin, and prayed that such bankers might be rendered liable to a distress for payment at the instance of a magistrate, upon twenty-four hours' notice. This was the only part of the petition in which he did not agree, as he thought the time too short, and that three or four days ought to be allowed. He himself knew an instance of a person, who having got possession of some Birmingham bank notes, presented them there for payment in gold. He was answered, that the notes were payable in London, and that at the place of issuing them they would only be paid in Bank of England paper. He trusted that a clause would be inserted in the bill to prevent the recurrence of those difficulties; for unless some such summary mode of enforcing payment were adopted, instead of leaving the parties to the ordinary course of law, they never could have gold in general circulation.
The petition was read as follows:—
"The Petition of William Cobbett, of Kensington, in the county of Middlesex, most humbly shows,
"1. That your Petitioner sees, with great alarm, that the bill now before your honourable House has had introduced
697
"2. That your petitioner has been most credibly informed, and that he believes the facts, that a man presented, on Saturday last, to a great country bank at Norwich, one hundred and thirty pounds in the notes of that bank; that he demanded gold for the same, and that he was peremptorily refused payment in any thing except Bank of England notes; that, on the same day, the same man made a similar application to another country bank in the same city; that he not only met here with a similar refusal, but that the bankers threatened to put him in charge of a constable, if he remained and persisted in his demand; and that if your honourable House will permit him, your humble petitioner doubts not that he shall be able to produce proof of these facts at the bar of your honourable House.
"3. Your humble petitioner prays your honourable House to be pleased to reflect, that it has been solely by means of this species offender, that the country bankers have been able to shut gold out of general circulation; that, as long as they can venture to refuse gold under pretence of paying in Bank of England notes, there can be no gold circulation, and no diminution of the country small notes, because, when it is merely one sort of paper for another, people in the country will, in most cases, prefer the country notes, however much they may suspect their goodness; and that thus, with a very small supply of Bank of England small notes, the country bankers may wholly defeat the laudable design to give the people once more a circulating gold and silver money.
"4. That, in order to prevent such imposition upon the people, and also to prevent those dreadful consequences that must finally result from the continued issue and re-issue of small country notes, your humble petitioner, with great deference and profound respect, begs leave to be permitted to suggest to your honourable House, that it may be enacted in the said bill, and he humbly prays your honourable House to enact, that, in case
698
"Feb. 21, 1826. WM, COBBETT."
Mr. Hume
called the attention of the chancellor of the Exchequer particularly to this petition, since it afforded a practical proof of the necessity of the clause which he had proposed the other night, to compel the country bankers, by summary process, to pay in gold; for, unless some such provision was introduced, the excess of paper issues would be as great as ever. The bankers ought undoubtedly to lodge proper security for their notes; and it was not in the least unfair, that, upon three or four days notice, they should be compellible, by summary process, to pay them in, gold on the spot.
Ordered to lie on the table, and be printed.
COMMERCIAL DISTRESS—PETITION
Mr. Thomas Wilson
said, he never rose with greater anxiety to address the House than on the present occasion with a petition on a subject of vital importance to the welfare of the country, seeing that the performance of this duty placed him in the situation in which he was obliged to differ much from those whom it had formerly been his pride to regard as his hon. friends; but, whatever might be the consequence—whatever might be the impression unfavourable to himself in the quarter to which he alluded—when he witnessed the distress that every where prevailed, and was called on by his constituents to discharge the duty they had imposed upon him, he felt himself bound to stand forward. He trusted, therefore, that he should experience the indulgence of the House, while he was compelled to trespass upon their attention. The House knew, that not only the city of London, but the whole mercantile world, had been suffering, for weeks and months, under
699
700
701
702
703
l.
l.
l.
l
l.
704
705
706
The Chancellor of the Exchequer
said, that if the hon. member for the city of London anticipated from him any severe animadversions, either on the manner in which he had stated the case, on the mode in which he had described the distress, which they all knew was, unfortunately, prevailing in different parts of the country, or on his own personal conduct in bringing the question under the consideration of the House, expressing, as he had done, his altered sentiments on many important questions relative to the policy of the country, he would be greatly disappointed; because, sensible, as he was, that it was impossible the hon. member could address the House on the subject without feelings of the greatest pain, he trusted that the hon. gentleman would also do him the
707
708
709
710
Mr. Baring
said, that no man could have listened to the right hon. gentleman who had just spoken, without being fully impressed with his perfect sincerity on the present occasion; nor did he require any assurances beyond those which the right hon. gentleman himself expressed, and which a knowledge of his character fully supported, that the distress under which so large a portion of the community was suffering, produced a large share of sympathy in his mind. But in stating thus much, he must also say that the whole speech of the right hon. gentleman convinced him that the right hon. gentleman was not fully sensible of the extent and depth of the existing distresses. And on this important subject, which was one more of understanding than of feeling, he trusted the House would not be carried away by the earnestness of the manner, or the perfect good faith of the character of the right hon. gentleman. He would readily admit that it was not the business of government to interfere in any ordinary case of distress, but a case might arise (and such was the present) where the distress might be of such an extraordinary nature, and so extensive in its operation, as to render it the indispensable duty of government to step forward and attempt its alleviation. It was most unjust to attribute disasters to the improvident speculations of the whole of these merchants. He, on the part of the merchants of the country, denied the fact. He believed, upon examination, it would be found, that nearly three-fourths of the absurd schemes which were
711
712
713
714
l.
l.
Mr. John Smith
said, that in all that had been urged upon this subject, that which he took to be the most important point had been lightly touched on by his hon. friends: he meant the unprecedented nature of the distress which prevailed, and the mode which had been hitherto adopted for its relief. It was not his intention to inquire into the causes which had produced that distress—whether the panic which was its immediate cause bad solely occasioned it, or whether the clumsy contrivances which had been suggested had increased it to its present extent. This, however, was quite clear, that the House was called upon to deal with an entirely new state of things. At this juncture the chancellor of the Exchequer bad taken up the subject of the currency, and had proposed to do away with the circulation of one and two pound notes. He believed that the announcement of that intention on the part of government had had no small effect in producing the evils of which we had to complain. Was this to be renewed at some distant period? Was the House again to be occupied with debates on this subject? He hoped not. With respect, however, to the existing distress, he did not remember, nor, he believed, could any man living remember, a time of such universal pressure; Did any man recollect a period at which six London and an immense number of country bankers had broken?—when distress like that which now prevailed was felt at the same
715
l.
716
717
Mr. Pearse
observed, that if the directors of the Bank of England had withheld the relief which was so urgently required, it was not because they did not know and feel the difficulties under which the country laboured. Being, as they all were, either merchants or engaged in pursuits intimately connected with the commerce of the country, they were interested (speaking merely of their pecuniary interests) in removing, if it was in their power, the present distress. The reason which had induced them not to interfere to any greater extent than they had already done, was, because they knew, by experience, that much better means than any which they could put in practice had been devised, and which, in their opinion, were altogether free from objection. He would shortly state the reasons which induced him to concur in this view of the case. In the first place, she distress had extended itself throughout the country. There was no place of importance which did not feel its full share of calamity, and in the appointment of the commission which had been so urgently, and he thought so wisely, recommended to the adoption of the House, the same method of forming it should be pursued as in that of 1793, when persons were inserted to represent every part of the kingdom. One gentleman from Scotland, who was well acquainted with the inter-
718
719
Mr. Bright
referred to the report of the commissioners appointed in 1793, and said, that the beneficial effects which had resulted from the measures adopted under that commission, were the best arguments that could be used for its renewal upon the present occasion. He did not know for what reason the government should refuse now to do that which had then been found so satisfactory a remedy for evils of precisely the same nature as the present. The commissioners of 1793 said in their report "that its advantages were evinced by a speedy restoration of confidence in mercantile transactions, which produced a facility in raising money that leas presently felt, not only in the metropolis, but through the whole extent of Great Britain." He saw no reason why any doubt should be entertained that the same consequences would result, if the same measure were now put in practice. The commissioners further stated, that "the difficulties in which many considerable commercial houses were involved have been thus removed, and the fatal effects of those difficulties on other houses who were dependent on them have been prevented." Nor was the operation of the act less beneficial with respect to a variety of eminent manufacturers in different parts of the kingdom, who having, in a great degree, suspended their works, were enabled to resume them, and to afford employment to a number of workmen who must Otherwise have been thrown on the public for support, and perhaps, in some cases, with the loss of the manufacture. We now beard complaints, that not only those who had rashly entered into the speculations which were so universally condemned were ruined, but that they had drawn into the same distress many honest and laborious tradesmen who bad taken no part in their schemes. To obviate evils such as these, ministers were called upon to adopt an expedient, the efficacy of which had beep already satisfactorily proved. Many
720
721
Mr. Holme Sumner
concurred in the view taken on this subject by the hon. member who had spoken last. He was as great an advocate as any man could be for adherence to principles, as long as that was practicable. But, circumstances might happen to render it necessary to lay aside for a time those principles; and such circumstances he thought prevailed at this moment. The distress had assumed such a shape, that there was no class in the community exempt from its operation. No man, whether of high or low station, could say he was secure from the general pressure. It was true that owe of the causes of this distress might be ascribed to the rash and unjustifiable speculations which had been indulged in. But the melancholy fact was, that the speculators no longer existed; they had been swept away in the general ruin; and those who remained and implored relief were not those who had thus sinned, but men of respectability, honour, and integrity, who had unfortunately become the sufferers from the operations of others. It was not, therefore; with a view of serving the speculators but others who had no connection with them that he joined in imploring relief; for there were not any classes of society—not even those who fancied themselves wholly beyond the reach of disaster of any kind—who might not be eventually dragged into the vortex of destructions, if something was not done to save those who were at present in dan-
722
Mr. Monteith
said, that the distress which prevailed was by no means confined to England. It had reached Scotland, and was making rapid and alarming progress there. The city of Glasgow was at that moment suffering under distress as severe and universal as any other part of the kingdom. He valued the principles upon which the government acted so highly, that nothing short of absolute necessity should induce him to sanction any departure from them. But circumstances like the present left no option, and either the issue of Exchequer-bills must be consented to by ministers, or consequences of the most disastrous nature would ensue. On the other hand, it appeared to him, that by consenting to this measure, no possible injury, or even inconvenience, could be the result. He trusted that the representations which had been made would have their weight with the right hon. gentleman, and that an acquiescence in them would dissipate that frightful train of evils which presented themselves in prospect.
Mr. Manning
expressed himself in favour of an issue of Exchequer-bills under commissioners by the government. A similar measure was adopted by government in 1793 with the happiest results—the distress at that time immediately subsiding. Government then proposed to issue Exchequer-bills to the amount of 5,000,000
l.
l.
l.
723
724
Mr. Secretary Canning
said, he so far agreed with the hon. gentleman who had just sat down, as to consider, that, as this question was to be brought before the House on a future day, when the course of their proceedings would leave them to the further expression of their opinions by a vote—it was not desirable to proceed with this discussion on the present occasion; and more especially, as there stood upon the paper, for that night, the consideration of a subject of very great interest, and connecting itself, in some degree, with many of the topics which had now been brought forward, rather irrelevantly, to be sure, in the course of this discussion; but which it would be, for the purposes of a sound discretion, quite desirable to separate from those which the House was so about to enter upon. He could not, however, suffer a part of the
725
726
727
728
729
730
731
Mr. Pearse
disclaimed the use of any tone by the Bank which would amount to an admonition to the government. They had merely represented, that as the mode pursued in 1793 had operated so beneficially, it would be advisable to adopt the same course now.
Mr. Robertson
said, that the conduct of ministers, and the measures introduced by them, were loudly condemned by the country. They had proved themselves unfit for their situations. The opinion and feeling of those within and without doors were, that they had reduced the country to a most helpless condition [Cries of "Question!"]. Such was his opinion of their conduct, and he would not be deterred from stating it. It was usual, when ministers found that their measures were not approved of to resign their places to those whose counsels were acceptable to the nation. Their continuance in office was an embarrassment to the king; who with other ministers, might adopt measures more applicable to the situation of the country.
Mr. Alderman Bridges
concurred in all that had been said with respect to the strong claims which the unexampled pressure of the present crisis gave to the commercial world for relief. He could not understand why a measure which proved so successful in 1793, should
732
Mr. Curteis
contended, that the precedent of 1793 was a very fair guide as to what the government ought to do in the present case. The Bank directors were all men of practical experience, who understood the nature of the distress better than any body else; and, as they advised the government to come forward with assistance, he was inclined to think that they were right. It was true that the recent measures of ministers had been cheered by their opponents; but those cheers ought to be looked at with some jealousy. He was one of their friends, as he generally voted with them, except when they got into their novelties. Whatever mischiefs might arise from their new doctrines of free-trade, he could not be looked upon as a particeps criminis as he had invariably opposed them.
733
Ordered to be printed.
SILK TRADE.
After various petitions against the importation of Foreign silks, from persons engaged in the silk manufacture, had been presented to the House,
Mr. Ellice
rose, and spoke, in substance, as follows:—
734
735
736
737
738
739
s.
d.
740
l.
s.
741
742
743
s.
d.
s.
d.
s.
s.
744
745
746
747
748
s.
s.
d.
s.
s.
s.
749
750
751
752
753
754
755
Mr. John Williams
rose to second the motion of his hon. friend. He began by observing that he had always understood it to be desirable, that if a doubtful measure was to be discussed at all—and a doubtful measure he considered this to be—it should be discussed at a period when the tranquillity and prosperity of the country were such as to prevent the danger and risk which such a discussion might produce. That such was not the present state of the country, he believed no man would venture to deny. The greater part of our manufacturing population were under-going a degree of suffering unparalleled in our history. His hon. friend had
756
757
758
759
d.
760
761
762
763
Mr. Huskisson
rose, and spoke, in substance, as follows:—
764
765
766
767
768
769
770
771
772
773
774
*
*
775
776
777
778
779
780
*
*
† Laws of the Customs, by J. D. Hume, esq.
781
782
l.
l.
783
*
*
784
785
786
787
788
789
790
791
792
*
*
793
l.
l.
794
795
796
797
798
799
l.
l.
l.
s.
s.
800
s.
801
802
803
s.
804
s.
d.
s.
805
806
807
808
809
Mr. Baring
rose amidst cries of "adjourn," and "go on." The hon. member said, that at that late hour he could not hope for the attention of the House, if he were to attempt to follow in detail the many topics on which the right hon. gentleman had touched in his very able speech. He would, therefore, compress his observations into as narrow a compass as possible. Here the cries for an adjournment became very general, and the hon. member seemed unwilling to proceed, when
Mr. Canning
said, that if the question before the House were confined merely to the motion of the hon. member for Coventry, there could be no difficulty in disposing of it on that night; but, as the eloquent and powerful speech of his right hon. friend had—most happily, he would say, for the country—involved the whole of the principles on which the commerce of the country was to be conducted in future, he thought it would be impossible to conclude the discussion that night. He would therefore move that the debate be adjourned till to-morrow.
The motion of adjournment was put, and agreed to.
HOUSE OF COMMONS.
Friday, February 24, 1826.
SILK TRADE.
On the motion for resuming the adjourned debate, on Mr. Ellice's motion, "That a Select Committee be appointed, to inquire into and examine the statements contained in the various petitions from persons engaged in the silk manufacture; and to report their opinion and observations thereon to the House,"
Mr. Baring
rose. He felt, he said, the disadvantage under which he laboured in addressing the House upon this subject, after the able and eloquent speech of his right hon. friend, the president of the Board of Trade. It was not necessary for him to state any opinion as to the
810
811
812
813
Mr. Huskisson.
—Yes, whether in war or in peace.
Mr. Baring
continued: And at that very moment, though the country was in a state of perfect despair as to the return of peace, his right hon. friend, as he had just avowed, was speaking, writing, and voting, for the return to cash payments in two years. Was that, he would ask his right hon. friend, a vote which, under the same circumstances, he would give again.
Mr. Huskisson.
—Entirely.
Mr. Baring.
—If such were the case, he would leave his right hon. friend to maintain it as he could; but any man who mixed up a little practical experience with his theory, would see the absurdity of such a position. If any gentleman wished for proof, that his right hon. friend was not a safe pilot for the vessel of the state in a time of commotion and storm, he would find it in his right hon. friend's recent declaration, that he was prepared to assert the entire maintenance of a system in time of war, to which they had compelled the Bank to return with extreme difficulty, and not with any thing like complete success, in time of peace. He had no right, therefore, to charge his right hon. friend with incon-
814
s.
s.
s.
d.
s.
d.
s.
d.
s.
815
s.
d.
816
817
818
819
820
s.
821
822
823
824
825
Mr. Huskisson
said, he had seen the men.
Mr. Baring.
—Then, if his right hon. friend had seen the men, he wondered still more that he had expressed himself so decidedly on the subject. The case had been stated to him by persons of whose veracity he had not the slightest doubt, and from their relation it appeared, that they were silk-manufacturers in London, and that an informer came to them telling them that there was a large quantity of smuggled goods in a French house newly established. This man had been long employed as an informer for the Custom-house. They immediately sent to the Custom-house on the subject, and the answer which they received was, that the Frenchmen were privileged by the government, and that orders had been received at the Custom-house not to take cognizance of any information of this kind. Upon further inquiry, it turned out that this French [house had made application to the government, and, representing that great benefit would result from their trying the experiment of introducing their own method of manufacturing silk, had obtained permission to transport their stock hither free from duty. The silk
826
827
828
829
Mr. Huskisson
was quite aware, that he had no right to say one word, at present, except for the purpose of explanation, and in order to set himself right with the House on a point of some importance. With regard to what his hon. friend had stated respecting the French case, he thought it necessary to offer a few words in vindication, he might almost say, of his veracity. He now stated to his hon. friend, that he had never previously seen M. de Pouillet; that he knew nothing of him; and never had communicated with
830
Mr. Davenport
hoped the House would not be deterred from doing what it might feel to be its duty, by any apprehension of liability to the charge of inconsistency. By adopting the measure of inquiry, hundreds of thousands of their fellow-creatures might be saved from ruin. He lived in the neighbourhood of those classes, and could vouch, without meaning to say any thing disrespectful as to the new measures that had been pursued by ministers in relation to the silk and other trades, that previously, the silk trade was going on progressively improving, and spreading itself into every county in that part of the kingdom. The fact was, that there were but two classes of persons that could be benefitted by these changes; namely, the foreign manufacturer and the smuggler on our coasts. At the former period to which he alluded, the silk-trade produced to government about 500,000
l.
831
Mr. Charles Grant
said, that whatever might be the opinions entertained by the hon. gentleman who had just concluded, relative to the measures proposed by his right hon. friend, or his sentiments with respect to the political economists, every body in that House must unite with him in a feeling of respect for the language that had been held by the hon. gentleman himself on this and on former nights. He agreed also with that, hon. gentleman that they should approach with respect and sympathy the case of the individual persons who came before the House that night, because they came before it as petitioners, and still more because of the respectable and orderly conduct which those petitioners had always observed under circumstances of similar affliction. The respect also that he felt for the master manufacturers would lead him to treat those persons on this occasion, as well as on all others, with that respect and attention which they merited. The situation of the working classes, to which he had alluded, was such as demanded the sympathy of every man; and however convinced they who thought with him (Mr. Grant) might be, of the expediency of persevering in that course upon which the government had entered, and of opposing the proposition of the hon. member for Coventry, they would feel some degree of natural reluctance, in knowing that they must encounter the opposition of the feelings, and prejudices of those who, with the best intentions, were nevertheless extremely misinformed and mistaken on these subjects. He had listened with a great deal of attention to the speech of the hon. member for Taunton, who had objected to the speech of his right hon. friend, because it had gone into a variety
832
833
834
835
s.
836
l.
837
838
s.
s.
s.
s.
s.
s.
839
840
841
s.
s.
s.
d.
s.
842
s.
s.
843
s.
d.
s.
s.
s.
d.
s.
s.,
s.
s.
s.
s.
s.
d.
s.
s.
844
s.
d.
845
d.,
d.
846
Mr. Dickenson
rose to support the motion. The right hon. gentleman who spoke last had, he said, observed that the manufacturers were to blame for the excessive speculations into which they had entered. It appeared to him, however, that it was not the manufacturers who were to blame, but that they had been led into these speculations by the measures of government. It was his opinion that the excellence of silk was an affair of colour, and that superior colours could be produced only in Lyons: from whatever cause it might arise, whether from some peculiarity in the atmosphere, or the water, he would not pretend to say. It was in vain to hope that we could enter into any commercial regulations with France that would place us on a footing of reciprocity. That country was almost exclusively agricultural. He wished to keep her merchants and manufacturers where they were, and was not disposed to make any sacrifices for their encouragement. He greatly feared that this country was borne away by a spirit of visionary speculation, which had led it, and would continue to lead it into much inconvenience. One year it was Mr. Owen's plan; another year there was no such thing as contagion; and the next, Mr. M'Culloch would persuade them that Ireland suffered nothing from the number of her absentees. In 1822 and 1823 the complaint was agricultural distress. Now, they were told of commercial and manufacturing distress, and the evils occasioned by the fluctuations of the currency. If they persevered in the commercial system they had entered upon, without first inquiring into all its bearings and probable results,
847
Mr. Warre
said, he had listened attentively to all the arguments on both sides, and he could not say that his hon. Friend, the member for Coventry, appeared to him to have made out sufficient ground for going into a committee. The real question before the House was, whether they were now, after all they had done, to renew the system of prohibition. His hon. friend who spoke last, appeared to have fallen into a material error in saying that French silks could not be admitted into this country at a duty of 30 per cent without certain ruin to the English manufacturer. The fact was, that French silks to any amount, did now easily find their way here; so that the manufacturer could not be worse off under the proposed change. He would appeal to any of the lords of the Admiralty, whether the most that Gould he effected by the blockade system, was not to keep out spirits; what were called dry goods, such as silks, it was impossible to keep out, with all the vigilance that could be exercised. He doubted the peculiar effect which the hon. member attributed to the water of Lyons. The slightest reference to history was sufficient to show that commercial improvement in all times had been opposed by those who thought their interests attacked by it, just as vehemently as the change now proposed was. He wished to refer -them to a speech delivered some years ago by sir T. Egerton. It was upon an occasion when lord Newhaven came down and made a pathetic appeal to the House, respecting the miserable state in which Ireland was placed, and moved for a committee to inquire into the evils which she suffered, and the effectual way of removing them by granting her an import trade. Sir T. Egerton deprecated the measure, and said, that if the importation of cotton into Ireland were once permitted, there was an end to the prosperity of England, and that the people of Manchester in particular would be completely ruined. Lord North followed sir T. Egerton on the same side. Mr. Burke endeavoured to point out the folly of such an apprehension; but his efforts were vain, and the committee was refused. He heard with much surprise from his hon. friend, that France was almost exclusively an
848
Mr. Peter Moore
said, he did not mean to introduce to the House any calculations on this occasion. It was his intention to argue the question on great national principles, having reference to popular rights and popular industry, without any calculations whatever. He would offer nothing to their consideration which he could not prove. Why did not ministers go to the proof? Why did they hot permit the petitions to go to a committee? If a committee were granted, there was not a point on which his hon. colleague had touched, which he had not pledged himself to substantiate. If ministers would not meet the petitioners in that way, was it not an acknowledgment that they could not contend with the facts? He listened with attention to the long speechr—(a speech that occupied two hours and ten minutes by the house clock)—which had been delivered by the hon. gentleman (Mr. Huskisson) last night; and he must say, that the right hon. gentleman had not touched on the misery and distress as he ought to have done, although be acknowledged that much misery and distress existed. This struck him so forcibly, that he was two or three times on the point of
849
850
Mr. Egerton
observed, that many petitions had been laid on the table from the towns of Macclesfield, Congleton, and other places in the county which he represented, to the contents of which he called the serious attention of the House. The distress was exceedingly great; and he implored ministers, before they threw out of employment so many thousands of poor persons, to examine their complaints. All he asked was, to allow the petitioners to go before a committee; and if they did not make out such a case as would justify government in abandoning their measures, he would no longer support their claim.
Mr. Palmer
wished to say a few words in explanation of the grounds on which he meant to give his vote that evening. At a meeting which had recently taken place, he had stated to his hon. friend (Mr. Ellice), that he felt inclined to support his motion for a committee, and would do so, unless something cogent was advanced which should induce him to change his mind. He had, in consequence, come down to the House last night, and heard what his hon. friend had said in support of the motion. He was then of opinion, that the committee ought to be granted. But, he would ask of the House, whether a speech had not been subsequently delivered, which proved to demonstration, that he was wrong in the opinion he had thus hastily formed? He had heard the speech of the right hon. gentleman (Mr. Huskisson), which had made a very great impression on his mind, and he regretted that his memory was not sufficiently capacious to retain every sentence of it. He would not weaken the effect of that speech by alluding to the important topics which it embraced. He could assure the hon. mover, that if the going into a committee would be likely to do even a trifling good to those deserving individuals whose case he had so ably advocated, he would cheerfully vote with him; but, feeling that this would not be the case—conceiving that, so far from doing good, it would effect much harm, by holding out fallacious hopes to those individuals, he must oppose the proposition. He hoped his hon. friend would believe that he acted from conscientious motives; and that, in giving this vote, he felt that he was consulting the best interests of the country,
851
Mr. Secretary Canning
rose, amidst cries of "Question!" but was loudly cheered as he presented himself to the House. He proceeded nearly as follows:—Sir, after the direct appeal made to me by the hon. member for Coventry; after the appeal also made to me by another hon. member, I do feel it necessary, before the debate closes, to state to the House fairly, and as shortly as I can, the views and opinions which I entertain upon the present question. On the one hand, I am sure the House will believe that I cannot feel disposed to enter at large into a subject which has been already so fully discussed, and has, I may say, been disposed of so much to the satisfaction of this House and the country; to the satisfaction, at least, of those who had before approved of the principles on which his majesty's government have acted, and to the conviction of others, who, doubting the soundness of those principles, found their doubts set at rest by the powerful and unanswerable speech of my right hon. friend. As, I say, the House, on the one hand, will not suspect me of having the bad taste, after his luminous exposition, to intrude on their time, by discussing the whole of this vast subject;—on the other hand, it would feel that I did not do my duty by the House, by the country, or by my right hon. friend, if, leaving to him the whole weight of the debate, I omitted to claim for myself a full participation in the responsibility incurred by the introduction of those measures which he has so successfully explained and defended. It is for this purpose, then, that I now present myself to the House; and I do so because I have witnessed for the last six months—I might, perhaps, say, during a lodger period, but principally for the last six months—the diligent, the systematic attacks made upon the plans and measures, as well as upon the public character, of my right hon. friend; attacks made, no doubt, with the cherished hope that they would prove injurious to his fame, and subversive of the sound commercial principles which he has so long and so anxiously exerted himself to introduce and establish. I agree with the hon. gentleman who has spoken to-night for the first time, and spoken in a manner which gives promise of the ability with which he will hereafter fill the station to which he has been called; I agree with him, that if there were any prospect that, by consenting to go into the committee for which the hon. gentle-
852
853
854
855
856
857
Lord John Russell
said, that although the right hon. gentleman seemed, as well as many others who had preceded him, to take an erroneous view of the subject of debate, by entering into a defence of the commercial policy of the country generally, instead of confining himself to the particular question before the House, still he was willing to admit, that his majesty's ministers had not only pursued the rational line of policy, but were as much alive to the distresses of the country as any of those who heard him. He was sure that many of those who spoke most loudly, did not feel half as deeply for those distresses as his majesty's ministers. While he sympathised with the petitioners, and he did so most sincerely, he could not think that their situation would be bettered by acceding to the motion of his hon. friend. The alteration made by ministers in the commercial policy of the country had been the result of calm
858
Mr. Ellice
, amidst cries of "question!" proceeded to reply. He disclaimed the grounds on which some of its supporters had put his motion, and declared that he had not brought it forward with a view to the internal prohibition of foreign silk. He had no hope, after the statements made by the right hon. gentleman, that he should get the House to accede to his motion; but he thought it due to the petitioners, to take the sense of the House upon it, that the people might know their determination; for the sooner that question was put to rest, the better. He would not have asked for a committee, but that he hoped for some advantage to the petitioners, and he wished to obtain the opinion of the House, that the masters might from it be induced to take confidence, and put their men into employment. If the mere abstract principle of liberality was to be followed, it was not the silk-trade alone, but every branch of the manufactures of the country, that must be sacrificed. The woollen manufactures of Germany were fast approaching towards a successful rivalry with our own, and our colonies in North America were at that moment supplied with nails, not from Birmingham, but from the United States. The most active competition was employed against us in all the corners of the world; and the right hon. gentleman ought not to persevere in carrying on the application of his principles of free trade in manufactures, unless he was prepared to go further, and to annihilate that worst of all restrictions—a restriction in the trade of corn. He had heard with pleasure of the intention of ministers to reduce the duties on dyeing stuffs, and on soap; the latter of which was not only much used in the silk manufacture, but was positively a common necessary of life. The duty on that article was the worst duty paid to government, not only with respect to itself, but the mode of its collection. It cost more in collecting than any other, and was the most oppressive and vexatious, by the restrictions which were, in consequence, imposed on the manufacture.
859
The House then divided; Ayes 40; Noes 222. Majority against the motion 182.
List of the Minority.
Attwood, M.
Howard, W.
Bankes, H.
Knatchbull, sir E.
Baring, A.
Lygon, col.
Birch, J.
Littleton, E.
Blackburne, J.
Moore, P.
Bright, H.
Pollen, sir J.
Buxton, T. F.
Robertson, A.
Byng, G.
Rickford, W.
Calcraft, J.
Rowley, sir W.
Calvert, C.
Smith, S.
Calvert, N.
Smith, Abel
Cholmeley, sir M.
Tomes, J.
Curteis, E. J.
Wells, J.
Davenport, D.
Webb, col.
Deerhurst, lord
Whitbread, S.
Dickinson, W.
Winnington, sir T.
Dundas, C.
Wrottesley, sir J.
Egerton, W.
Wood, alderman
Gordon, R.
TELLERS.
Guise, sir B. W.
Gurney, R. H.
Ellice, E.
Heygate, ald.
Williams, J.
PROMISSORY NOTES, BILL.
On the order of the day for recommitting this bill.
Mr. Calcraft
addressed the House on the subject of his intended motion, that the country banks should have the same privilege of issuing small notes until the 10th of October, as that granted to the Bank of England. He felt convinced that the arbitrary power given to the Bank of England would produce much mischief. In distant parts of the country there would exist a disinclination to take Bank of England notes; and unless government permitted the country banks to continue their issues of small notes, a stagnation in public trade and confidence must be the consequence. Under these circumstances, he trusted the right hon. gentleman would be convinced of the impropriety of running down the country banks. There could be no doubt that many of the stoppages which had lately occurred were to be attributed to the measures proposed by government. The country bankers wished as much as any other class, to get rid of the small-note circulation, and a metallic currency. He could assure the right hon. gentleman that his measure had contributed to revive the panic. He had seen a communication from an eminent banker in the north, which asserted this fact. The consequence, was, that he, in common with others, had written up for a large remittance of specie.
860
Sir J. Wrottesley
said, he would support any measure which would be of service to the country bankers. He was confident that the removal of their notes would be of great inconvenience to the country, and would agree to the amendment of his hon. friend. As the bill stood, what was to prevent the Bank of England from stamping a hundred million of these notes before the 10th of October, and put them in circulation?
The Chancellor of the Exchequer
said, that the permission given to the Bank being to meet a specific contingency, there was no probability that they would issue more notes than were necessary to meet that contingency. The clause for the Bank to furnish accounts of their issues, and the notoriety to be given to the whole proceeding was, he thought, a security against an improper use of the power.
The House having gone into the committee,
Mr. Hume
said, he felt completely at a loss to comprehend the state of the law as it existed with regard to the currency. He had read with much attention all the acts repealing the Bank restriction, and he freely confessed that he could not understand them. It appeared to him that it would be advisable to repeal all those acts, and to bring in a single bill, which should embody the whole law for the regulation of the currency. It would remove all doubts, save much time and trouble, and bring matters to a speedy and safe conclusion. Let the principle of the Jury bill be adopted in the present instance, and all previous acts be repealed which tended only to perplex and embarrass the law. If this suggestion of his were adopted, the House would stop short in its present proceedings, and introduce such alterations in their measures as he was convinced would be found simple and useful.
On the clause being read, which directed that the Bank should make monthly returns to the treasury of the amount of its small notes in circulation,
Mr. Maberly
said, it was important that the country should know not only the amount of the small notes but also the whole amount of all issues of the Bank, large and small, since the preceding month. It appeared, by the paper before the House, that in seven days the paper issues of the Bank had increased by 6,000,000
l.
861
The Chancellor of the Exchequer
could not see any necessity why the Bank, as a matter of course, should be obliged to publish monthly accounts of all their issues. Of the amount of their small notes in circulation, it might be desirable that there should be a monthly return, in order that a check might be provided against over-issue. If circumstances required that the whole amount of the Bank paper in circulation should at any time be made public, there would be no objection to such a return.
Lord Althorp
said, that the object was, to obviate the danger of a suddenly increased or diminished issue of notes of all kinds, and he could not imagine in what way the publication could be injurious to the Bank.
Mr. Huskisson
observed, that the House might as well call for the publication of all the other proceedings of the Bank, as for the account now moved for. He, and all those who took the same view of this question had always contended, that the amount of the Bank notes in circulation was not a fair criterion of their being in excess, and the very fact alluded to was a proof of this; because if they saw the Bank circulation increased by 6,000,000
l.
862
Mr. Calcraft
said, that as there was a clause in the bill requiring the Bank to furnish an account of the amount of the small notes issued by them, it could not be contended that it was foreign to the object of the bill to propose the amendment of that clause, by requiring an account of the amount of all the notes issued by the Bank. He was sure it would be found most beneficial, not merely to the Bank, but to the public, that such an account should be furnished, and it was a more delicate mode of proceeding towards the Bank, that it should be effected by a clause in the present bill, than by a separate enactment.
Mr. Pearse
thought it might be convenient that the extent of accommodation which the public required as to small notes should be, from time to time, made known, though it might be of pernicious consequence that the whole amount of Bank issues should be published. Peculiar circumstances might occasionally make it prudent for the Bank to increase or contract their issues to a very great extent, and if the public were made acquainted with the mere fact of such increase or contraction without at the same time being told the particular reasons for it, a considerable degree of alarm would be created thereby.
Mr. Hudson Gurney
could not see how the amendment of the hon. gentleman could, with any propriety, form part of the bill before the committee, to the objects of which it appeared to bear no relation. At the same time, he entirely agreed with him, that it would be of great public advantage, that the Bank should, from period to period, make the amount of their issues known to the public. As to the increased amount of Bank notes issued within the last two months, he
863
Mr. Hume
thought it would answer little purpose to have an account of the small notes issued, unless we had an account of the large notes also. Neither in France, America, nor in any other country, was there any secresy or mystery of this kind.
Mr. Maberly
said, the very opposition of the Bank and government to this amendment would induce him to press it. As the Bank made large profits by the monopoly, they were bound to give every information to the public by which those profits might be ascertained. What had been observed by an hon. member as to a quantity of Bank notes being looked up in the coffers of the bankers, afforded no argument against the motion; because those notes might, at any moment, be brought out, and gold demanded for them. The Bank had, on several occasions, acted with great impolicy; for when the exchanges were against them, they had not contracted their issues. Now, if their issues were published, the country would be aware of such imprudence on the part of the Bank. It was not necessary that the exchanges should be greatly against us to cause the Bank to be drained of its gold. One half per cent would be sufficient to effect this; and the House would be convinced of this when they reflected, that the insurance on gold to Paris was only a quarter, per cent.
Alderman Thompson
said, that although he had opposed this bill, he conceived that if it was to pass, it was better that it should pass without delay. As this bill gave the Bank the privilege of issuing small notes, it might be proper that they should-furnish an account of the issues of such notes; but as the Bank derived no privilege from it as to its other issues, there, was no reason why it should be required to furnish any account respecting them. The Bank might as well be called upon for an account of their discounts.
Mr. Hobhouse
said, that it was his intention to propose that country bankers should also furnish an account of their issues. Such account would afford greater security against their failure than any other
864
l.
l.
l.
Mr. Monck
said, that the amount of paper in circulation could riot be accurately ascertained, unless the country bankers, as well as the Bank of England, were required to give an account of the amount of their issues. He hoped therefore that the hon. member would persevere in his intention.
The Chancellor of the Exchequer
hoped the bill would be permitted to go through its present stage that evening; as there would be two more opportunities afforded for hon. gentlemen to propose amendments to it.
Mr. Hume
said, it would be very improper that this bill should be hurried through the committee at that late hour. He would therefore move, that the chairman report progress, and ask leave to sit again.
The committee divided: for the motion 11; against it 66; majority 55.
Mr. Hume
expressed his determination to continue dividing the committee as often as it was attempted to proceed. The chancellor of the Exchequer consented to the adjournment; and the chairman reported progress, and asked leave to sit again on Monday.
HOUSE OF LORDS,
Monday, February 27, 1826.
SCOTCH BANKING SYSTEM.
Lord Melville presented a petition from Edinburgh, praying their lordships not to consent to any measure for altering the system of the currency in Scotland.
The Earl of Roseberry
could not allow the petition to be read, without stating, not only that there had been not one dissentient voice at the numerous and respectable meeting when this petition was signed, but also that there had not been one dissentient voice at any meeting which had been held, and he believed there would not be a single dissentient voice at any of the meetings about to be held. There was in Scotland an unanimous, but not clamorous opposition to the proposed measure of extending to Scotland the bill for suppressing small notes. Men of all parties, who had never agreed on any one subject before, were united in this, and had stated, in the strongest way possible, that no project ever thought of was so
865
CORN LAWS.
Lord King
said, he had several petitions to present against the landlords' act—the bread-taxing act—which in the petition, was described by the more common name of the Corn-laws. The first petition wag from the ladies boot and shoemakers of London and Westminster. It generally happened with respect to all grievances which were petitioned against, that it required a quarter of a century, before parliament would listen to complaints, and set about correcting an evil. Such had been the case with the city job, the Bank Restriction act. That grievance had lasted a quarter of a century, and he was afraid this bread-taxing act, which had been in force since 1815, would last as long. The subject was allowed to be one which ought to be considered; but then it was very doubtful when the day of consideration would come. Last year it was said the subject would be taken up this year; and this year their lordships were told the consideration was to be taken up the next. But if the time of consideration was doubtful, it was still more doubtful how far the interest of those who gained by the law would not be suffered to prevail against the public interest. Perhaps his majesty's ministers might be divided on this, as they were on some other questions; and in that case, if ever they did come to a decision, the time of coming to it must be very doubtful indeed. On this subject the noble lord opposite and his friend acted a part of a nature something like what the dissenters described as "backsliding," or at least were resolved to be only "occasional conformists" In fact, he believed they were now busy looking out for the strongest side. In another place they had been compared to the devil of the metaphysicians; but they might, with more propriety, be compared to the ass of the metaphysicians placed between two bundles of bay, and so equally attracted by the flavour of each, that he did not know how to turn. He thought, however, that they moat of all resembled the common as, which always yielded to the heaviest blows. They were now well basted on one side by the landed interest, and unless the manufacturers and other parts of the population could thump them harder,
866
The Earl of Limerick
did not rise to oppose the petition from so distinguished a body, but to express his satisfaction at finding himself agreeing in opinion, for once, with the noble lord. He was glad to hear that a quarter of a century was likely to elapse before the Corn-laws were repealed; because he was persuaded that before that time expired, the petitioners themselves would alter their opinion on the subject.
The Earl of Lauderdale
, when he beard from the reading of the title of the petition that it came from ladies' boot and shoemakers, he thought it must be against the
corns
Ordered to lie on the table.
BANK CHARTER AMENDMENT BILL.—BANK ADVANCES ON GOODS.
The Marquis of Lansdown
rose, before the order of the day was read, to say a few words on a subject of much importance, which he could not so conveniently introduce on the report of the committee on the Bank Charter bill being brought up, when he intended, pursuant to the notice he had given, to move a clause compelling banks or branches of the Bank of England to pay in coin at the places where their notes might be issued. His motive for rising at the present moment was, to ask the noble earl opposite a question, the answer to which might save trouble, by rendering unnecessary observations on the subject in the future discussion of the bill. What he wished to ask was, whether applications had been made by government to the directors of the Bank, with the view of inducing them to engage in a new plan of system—new at least in practice to them—by which money was proposed to be advanced on goods pawned or pledged to the Bank? If he did not receive a satisfactory answer to his question, he should take the opportunity of bringing under their lordships' consideration a new principle, which, if it corresponded with the representation given of it, he could not help thinking was most important and most alarming.
The Earl of Liverpool
had no hesitation in answering the noble marquis, that a communication had taken place between some of the members of hid majesty's
867
The Marquis of Lansdown
expressed his regret, that any application of the kind had been made to the Bank of England to induce it to adopt so questionable a measure; and he earnestly hoped that the application would be re-considered by government; or, if the government were resolved not to re-consider it, that the directors would not lend themselves to any such measure. He was the more inclined to express this hope, because, without arguing whether it was proper to make application to the Bank to give relief, but assuming that such application was necessary, he was prepared, if the proposed plan were adopted, to contend that that mode of relief was by far the most objectionable which could be resorted to. It was a doctrine admitted on all sides, that the proper and salutary course for the Bank, was to leave that body, in its transactions with the public, in as free and unembarrassed a state as possible; because they would then be able to regulate their issues according to the rise or fall of the foreign exchanges. Now, with respect to the exchanges, nothing was more likely to tie up, and embarrass the Bank more than the measure which seemed now to be proposed; namely, that of making advances to a great extent on deposits of goods. At the time of the commercial distress in 1793, this subject had been forced on the consideration of the legislature; and both Mr. Pitt and the late lord Melville were decidedly against any proposition for advances on goods, which were then unsaleable. Both these statesmen had laid down, in the strongest terms, the principle, that it was not proper to induce the Bank to depart from the regular course on which its affairs hid been conducted. He should quote their words. On its being suggested in the, debate, that the management of the relief should be left to the Bank, Mr. Pitt observed, "that from the nature of the business, the Bank bad declined interfering, because the species of the security to be given was not such as the Bank had been accustomed to receive. The measure now proposed was of a temporary nature. The practice of the Bank upon discount was permanent. The Bank took securities for what business they transacted in this
868
869
870
The Earl of Liverpool
regretted that he was not prepared fully to explain all the circumstances of the transaction; but he was warranted in saying, that the noble marquis had been greatly misinformed on the subject, and that the whole of his observations were founded on a complete mistake. He entirely agreed with the noble marquis in all the principles he had laid down: they were, indeed, the same principles which he himself had repeatedly avowed in that place. He perfectly agreed with him, that if any proposition were to be made to the Bank which might tend to embarrass that establishment—which might prevent it from exercising a free discretion over its issues—that such proposition would be by no means consistent with good policy. He likewise agreed with him as to the difficulty of any measure which might be suggested; for there were serious objections to any interference with a view to commercial relief. Having stated this much on the general principles, he would proceed to the immediate subject to which the noble marquis had called the attention of their lordships. In the first place, as to the Bank, it now possessed the legal right of advancing money on goods. He would own that he himself, and several of his friends, who acted with him, were not aware of this state of the law. The Bank, however, had a legal right, under their charter, to make advances on deposits of goods. This right was regulated by bylaws, made by the directors, and it was governed by the same principle as the issues of money on discounts. The very same clause of the Bank charter which prohibited buying and selling, permitted discounts and advances on goods. Butt the by-laws regulated the mode of the advance, and the manner in which the goods were to be disposed of, if not redeemed. He thought it right thus to clear his way on the question of the legal right of the
871
872
The Marquis of Lansdown
conceived, that the supposed advantages of the measure were all founded on the assumption, which he thought could not be correct, that the goods which were unsaleable now, would be saleable in two or three months. If, at the end of that terra, no market was found for the goods, the Bank must renew the loan, or the relief would be of no avail. If it did not renew the loans from time to time until a revolution in the markets had taken place, the measure would have no advantages; and if a portion of the Bank capital were to be locked up in goods until that revolution was completed, would any man say, that while it was going on, the exchanges might not be in a state to compel the Bank to restrict its issues, and bring again on the country that calamity which their lordships were then endeavouring to remedy?
The Earl of Liverpool
re-stated his opinion, that the same principle ought to apply to advances on goods as to discounts. Discounts were made for a limited time, and so would be the advances on deposits. This was the mode in which, according to the by-laws, the business would be conducted. With regard to discounts, a great mistake appeared to prevail. Many persons supposed that they were made on mere personal security, but in reality they were always made with a view to goods. He would ask his noble and learned friend on the woolsack whether, from the transactions
873
The Earl of Lauderdale
thought that the merchants of the country were entitled to look to the government for relief, though the noble earl opposite wished to throw ail the responsibility of any thing which might be done in that way on the Bank. The noble earl had argued, that the distress of 1793 differed from the present, because it arose out of political events; but he could not admit the existence of that difference, for the present evils were also the consequence of political measures. He agreed with the noble earl in believing, that the wealth of the country was not impaired. Indeed he was of opinion, that if all the transactions of the late period of speculation were wound up and balanced, it would be found that the country was not a loser to the extent of 100,000
l.;
874
The Marquis of Lansdown
875
The Earl of Lauderdale
said, he had great doubts as to the effect of this clause in the way in which it stood now; for it would impose upon the Bank the necessity of issuing notes of different forms, so as to show at what particular branch-banks they were payable respectively. Then, if a person presented a note for payment at a particular place, which had issued at another place, be would be told that it could not be paid there; and the consequence of this might be to excite alarm in that part of the country. The question however was one of great difficulty;
876
The Earl of Liverpool
agreed that this proviso was one of some difficulty; but still he thought it was founded on good principles. It would, he admitted, compel the Bank to adopt notes of different forms; but, so far from that being an objection, he thought it would be an advantage; for if, as had been said, the Bank of England notes were more liable to be forged than local notes, this measure, by confining the payment of the notes issued by the branch-banks to the particular places where they had been so issued, and thus rendering their circulation local, would operate as a check td that crime, and thus effect a benefit to the public. It would also throw an impediment in the way of any persons who, actuated by malice or any other feelings might be anxious, like the man to whom the noble earl had alluded, to produce a run upon the Bank of England here, or upon any particular branch in the country. He therefore thought that the Bank ought to adopt particular forms of notes. Besides, it would be invidious towards the country banks, to compel them to pay their notes in specie, if the branch banks of the Bank of England were not equally obliged to do so. The measure would, moreover, afford an amazing check to over-issues of paper. Upon the whole, therefore, he approved of the proposition of the noble marquis.
The Marquis of Lansdown
contended, that the absence of a compulsory provision for payment by the Bank of England of its notes in coin where they had been
877
The clause, with the proviso, was then agreed to.
HOUSE OF COMMONS.
Monday, February 27, 1826.
DEBTOR AND CREDITOR ARRANGEMENT BILL.
Sir C. Cole
presented a petition from the creditors of the Swansea bank of Gibbon and Eaton, in favour of the bill before the House for promoting a better arrangement between Debtor and Creditor. The petition went to point out the serious inconvenience which occurred, as the law now stood, in vesting the property of merchants, bankers, and others engaged in trade, who might be involved in difficulties. It often happened, that when the majority of the creditors were disposed to invest the property in the hands of trustees for the benefit of the whole, one obstinate creditor, by holding out, and taking out a commission of bankruptcy, involved the property in legal proceedings to such an extent, that that property, which would, under a different system, pay a large dividend, was wholly absorbed in law expenses, and thus lost to the creditors. The petitioners, therefore, prayed, that the bill which allowed the majority of the creditors to enter into arrangements for the security of the property, might be binding on all; and that after such arrangement had been entered into, no creditor should be allowed to sue out a commission of bankruptcy. They gave an instance of the evil of which they complained, in the case of the Swansea Bank.
Mr. Bright
said, that great evils had arisen from the difficulty complained of, which ended, in many instances, in a total loss of the property to all the creditors. The object of the bill which he had introduced, was to cause the agreement of the majority of the creditors to be binding on the others. Since the bill was introduced, he had received several communications, which showed the immense losses which had accrued from the want of such a measure. These losses fell with great
878
Mr. Alderman Wood
bore testimony to the general utility of the bill.
Mr. Lockhart
thought that, to render the measure productive of the intended good, it should be carried much further. The mere prevention of an investment of the property of a trader from being considered an act of bankruptcy would not be sufficient; for it often happened that acts of bankruptcy were committed before such investment was made. Now, it would be necessary that the bill should extend to prevent those previous acts of bankruptcy from affecting the trust deed for the benefit of the creditors. The bill which had already passed, making the issuing of commissions of bankrupt null and void, unless such commissions were, issued within six months, was not carried: far enough; and unless some improvement on this point were made in the present bill, it would be inoperative.
Mr. Bright
was afraid of the difficulties which would be opposed to the suggestion of the hon. member. At the same time, he would be disposed to adopt any practicable course to make the measure effectual.
Ordered to lie on the table.
PROMISSORY NOTES BILL.
On the order of the day for going into a committee on this bill,
Mr. Hume
said, whatever difference of opinion might exist in the minds of hon. members as to the causes of the present distress, they were all agreed, at least, in a sincere desire to alleviate it as much as was in their power, and to prevent a recurrence of similar disasters. He was sorry to be obliged to differ from the introducers of the present bill as to the causes of the evil, and he could not but consider the present measure wholly uncalled for, and extremely mischievous in itself. He begged to remind hon. members, that if they supported this measure for England, they could not consistently oppose the extension of it both to Scotland and Ireland; for it was but right that the same system of currency should prevail through every part of the united kingdom. The supporters of this bill must also be guilty of a decided retracta-
879
l.
l.
l.
l.
880
l.
l.
l.
l.
881
l.
The Chancellor of the Exchequer
said, he should be inclined, on principle, to object to the introduction of any amendments to the effect of those proposed by the hon. member into the present bill; for this bill was of a mere temporary nature, and it would be a very inconvenient, not to say a very clumsy, mode of proceeding, to introduce, into it measures
882
883
Mr. Sykes
said, he was of opinion that government would have acted more wisely if it had let the subject rest, till the arrival of quieter times; though he thought they had amended this bill considerably by extending the time during which the Bank of England was to have the power of issuing small notes. The sooner these discussions were ended, the better it would be for the country; for the alarm which they occasioned was inconceiva-
884
Mr. Hobhouse
said, he was anxious to address a few words to the House, in consequence of an observation of the chancellor of the Exchequer; namely, that it would be inconsistent in any hon. member, who had supported the former measure of the government, now to give his assent to the proposition of his hon. friend. He was one of those who had supported the government on that occasion, and he had seen nothing since to induce him to regret that vote. He was sorry that ministers had departed from the correct principle which they had carried so triumphantly through the House; and it was on account of the ministers that he lamented the departure, not on his own. He was one of the minority of twenty-four who went out on that question of principle; and, therefore, he could not see how he was open to the charge of inconsistency in now voting with his hon. friend. Unless something was done to strike at the root of the present banking system, the country would be exposed to the constant recurrence of those evils under which it now suffered, and which it was impossible to say how long might continue. He denied that there would be any interference with the employment of capital. The instruction would only impose a wholesome restraint on the manufactures of the coin of the country. Why, the Bank of England itself gave security for the amount of their issues. Why? Because it traded in the coin of the country. For the same reason we had a right to demand of country bankers a deposit of capital to a certain extent, as a guarantee to the public that they should not throw the community into such a disastrous state as it had lately been involved in. The real cause of the present calamity might be traced to the
885
886
Mr. Huskisson
said, he should not have troubled the House at all upon this occasion, if he had not been called upon by the hon. member for Hull, to set right a misrepresentation, which had occasioned uneasiness to several of his constituents. In a former debate, having had occasion to notice an argument of the hon. member for Cricklade, who had opposed the bill for the regulation of the one and two pound notes, on the ground that they could not be suppressed without producing great injury to the agricultural interest, he had endeavoured to show, that even if that inconvenience should ensue from that bill, there were other and greater inconveniences likely to ensue from the want of it. In looking about for a proof of that assertion in a country unconnected almost with commerce, he had referred to what had occurred at Horsham, in Sussex, where, ten years ago, the bank, which was the only one in the place, had failed, and had involved the inhabitants of the town and neighbourhood in the most severe distress. After that failure had oc-
887
888
l.
l.
889
Mr. Robertson
, from some details furnished by the late earl of Liverpool, argued, that taking a comparative estimate of the total of our currency and of the population of England and Wales in 1774, and the present population of all Great Britain and Ireland, and the additional amount of uniform currency now demanded for Scotland and Ireland, in which countries their own monies formerly circulated, we should want, in the present year 1826, a currency double what it was in 1774; that, whereas, in 1774, it was in all about 28,000,000
l.,
l.;
890
l.
l.
Mr. Leycester
said, he conceived this measure to be a mere temporary one, intended by the chancellor of the Exchequer as a stepping-stone to further improvement. He thought that the security of the country depended upon the facility and certainty with which the paper issues—of whatever description they might be—could be converted at the will of the holder into gold. Not to do this would be to give a loose rein to the wild enterprises of those who had already proved that
891
Mr. Monck
said, that the system of a paper currency subsisting at the same time with one of gold, was the most objectionable in principle, as well as in practice, that could be imagined. The tendency of the one was always to drive out the other, and to cause the most serious inconveniencies to the country, by keeping up a ruinous fluctuation of prices. Money, and not money's worth, was the basis of a well-regulated currency; and whenever this principle should be departed from, the consequences must be highly detrimental. Much had been said lately of the respectability of the country bankers. He did not mean to say that there were not some of those persons who, in every point of view, deserved all that had been said in their favour; but it was not less true that some who called themselves country bankers were little better than swindlers. There was, therefore, the greatest reason why a difference should be made between persons who were entitled to confidence, and those who had no other object than to defraud those who were so unfortunate as to trust them. It was obviously the first duty of the ministers of any country to maintain the safety of the country. In discharge of this duty, they ought to prevent the persons he had alluded to from taking the king's coin out of circulation, and afterwards that which was the next best thing, the Bank of England notes, and substitute for them nothing
892
Mr. Maberly
said, he thought his hon. friend had not applied his usual discrimination to this subject, and that the amendment which he had proposed would fail to do any possible good, while it might produce serious evil. The security which he proposed must be an incomplete one, because, although it would protect the holders of the notes, the persons depositing their money with the bankers would be left without any security whatever. He thought also, that as the amendment went, in effect, to produce a great alteration in the law of the land between debtor and creditor, he ought to propose it in a substantive shape, when it might be discussed upon its own merits. He trusted, therefore, that his hon. friend would withdraw his motion, and bring it forward at some future opportunity.
Mr. Hume
said, he understood the right hon. gentleman to agree with him as to the principle, but objected that this was not the time for carrying the measure he had proposed. As, however, the right hon. gentleman had not said what time he thought would be a favourable one, the same objection might always be made. He was desirous to ascertain what was the feeling of the House upon it, and for this purpose should press his motion to a division.
Mr. Huskisson
said, he had stated, on a former occasion, that although it was his intention to propose a measure with respect to chartered banks, he should wait until some steps had been taken towards the establishment of such banks.
The House divided: for the amendment 9; against it 120. Majority against it 111.
List of the Minority.
Baring, sir T.
Palmer, C. T.
Burdett, sir F.
Wood, ald.
Maberly, major.
Webb, col.
Monck, J. B.
TELLERS,
Lloyd, S.
Hume, J.
Knight, Rob.
Hobhouse, J. C.
The House having resolved itself into a committee,
893
The Chancellor of the Exchequer
observed, that at the time of the last adjournment, the committee had been occupied in the discussion of a proposition of the hon. member for Abingdon, with respect to a regular publication of the issues of the Bank of England. He had stated then, that although he was not an enemy to publicity in the transactions of the Bank, he did not conceive that there were the same reasons for demanding a compulsory statement of all its issues, as there were for requiring an account of the circulation of small notes. The House, he admitted, might exercise its power in requiring the amount of issues for a particular purpose; but as a general rule, it was his opinion, that it would lead to serious inconveniencies. He had then stated his objections to the hon. member's motion, to be founded on these grounds; and he begged now to say, that his judgment remained unaltered. It would therefore be better that the subject should now be taken up at the point where it had been broken off.
Mr. Maberly
expressed his surprise that the right hon. gentleman should oppose a proposition so little liable to objection. He need not remind the right hon. gentleman and the committee, how materially the whole transactions of the country were affected by the issues of the Bank of England, and there was nothing in his opinion so likely to prevent any ill consequences from their operation, as the knowledge of the full length to which their issues extended. The right hon. gentleman seemed to consider that knowledge of very little consequence; but in truth it was more material than gentlemen were fully aw are of. Government denied that they interfered with the Bank of England; but without going to inquire whether they did or did not, he would say that in a case like the present, it was their duty, as ministers of the Crown, to interfere for the protection of the country. Without the publication he called for, they never could be secure against the fluctuations produced from the
894
895
Mr. Herries
said, it was not because the Bank felt reluctant to give this account that he opposed the amendment, but because it appeared to him extremely objectionable. In the first place, it had nothing to do with the measure now before the House. Nothing was proposed by that measure, but to regulate the Issues of one and two pound notes. If the amendment should be introduced, there was no subject relating to the Bank of England that might not, with equal propriety, be engrafted upon it. There was another objection to it which he thought even stronger than this. The actual amount of notes in circulation was never any criterion either of the superabundance or deficiency of money; and be could conceive nothing more likely to produce confusion than the publication of such amount. It would, perhaps, gratify the curiosity of the hon. member; but it could produce no good effect. Suppose it should appear by the monthly account, that a large issue of Bank-notes had taken place, and at the same time, from some Other cause wholly unconnected with that, a fall had happened in the rate of exchanges, the inference would undoubtedly be, that the one was the cause of the other, and the greatest alarm and inconvenience would immediately be experienced. There were many other objections; but he mentioned this alone as sufficient, in his opinion, to show the inexpediency of the amendment.
Mr. Calcraft
supported the amendment, which he thought was calculated to be Useful to the public, and could do no
896
The Chancellor of the Exchequer
said, the hon. member seemed to assume that the House called, as of course, for the return from the Bank every year. The hon. member was mistaken. During the period of the Bank restriction, the House did call for such returns, and they were made; but that was under a clause in the Restriction act for that purpose, and when the act was repealed, the practice was at an end. He had always stated that when circumstances made it expedient to have such a return, the House ought to call for it. He adhered to that principle, and was content to be bound by it on all occasions, when the circumstances should be proved to exist. He, however, objected strenuously to compelling the Bank to make such an account, periodically, because it was an interference which could not be justified but by necessity, and which would tend to mislead much rather than to inform all who might inspect those accounts. His hon. friend had just put a case in which great inconvenience might arise. Suppose the converse of that case to happen, and a rise in the exchange to appear to be the result of the Bank issues, instead of the alarm which the other circumstances would occasion, a confidence as unfounded, and in the end much more mischievous, would immediately be created, and the distresses under which the country was now unhappily labouring would be renewed. But then the hon. member for Wareham said, that if the plan was good with regard to the one and two pound notes, it must also be good as to the greater circulation of the Bank. But, these two things were in themselves entirely different. The regulation was applied to the one and two pound notes, because the Bank was per-
897
Mr. Grenfell
declared himself to be a friend to publicity, and said that if his hon. friend pressed the motion to a division, he would vote for it.
Mr. Pearse
objected to the motion on the ground that it would, if carried into effect, create considerable public inconvenience. If parliament had called for such an account of the Bank issues, as was now asked for, during the continuance of the Bank restriction, there would have been some plea for doing so; but now that cash payments were resumed, the Bank stood in precisely the same situation as any other Banking establishment. He was decidedly of opinion that if a periodical account of all the Bank issues was published, it would give rise to all sorts of rash speculation, and particularly with respect to the exchanges.
Mr. Hume
said, that the greatest advantages would result to the public from the monthly publication of the amount of the issues of the Bank of England and of all he country banks. There were eight hundred banks in the country, and each of these, as well as the Bank of England, should be obliged to make a monthly return to the Stamp Office of the amount of their issues. The names of the bankers need not be laid before the House; but the returns might be made, so that the information of the amount of circulation in the country might always be easily ascertainable.
Mr. Hudson Gurney
could not see how any of the inconveniences which the honourable Bank directors apprehended could arise from the Bank periodically making known the amount of their notes in circulation. All commercial transactions alternately resolving themselves into payment in Bank notes, the Bank issues must so materially affect the prices of every thing saleable, that it appeared of the greatest importance that this information should be given. It might be doubted, possibly, whether the House had the
898
Mr. Calcraft
thought that there was much in this suggestion of the hon. gentleman, and that there would be no necessity for the amendment, if the Bank would undertake to publish in the Gazette monthly accounts of their notes issued. The conduct of the Bank amounted to restriction, in fact; for instead of paying their larger notes in sovereigns, they paid in one and two pound notes. What was this, but a restriction of cash payments. He wished the hon. director would state whether the Bank were disposed to consent to publish a periodical account of their issues.
Mr. Monck
supported the amendment. If the measure now proposed had always been in force, the Bank Restriction act of 1797 would never have been passed.
Mr. Secretary Peel
differed from the hon. member who spoke last, in the view which he took of the question. The most erroneous inferences might have been drawn from the accounts of the issues of the Bank about the period of 1797. The average amount of the Bank of England circulation for two or three years previous to 1797 was 11,000,000
l;
l.
Mr. Hudson Gurney
observed, that though false inferences might be deduced from authentic facts, inferences much more false and much more mischievous might be drawn from assumptions which
899
Mr. Abercromby
said, he could not vote for the amendment, not because he did not wish for publicity, but because by so doing it would appear as if he recognized the principle, that the Bank directors were acting as trustees for the benefit of the public, instead of for the benefit of those who elected them to their offices. He was not aware of any inconvenience that might arise from the disclosure required; but, although he would be glad to see such a course adopted by the Bank, he was unwilling to introduce it as a clause into the present bill. He would recommend his hon. friend to withdraw it.
Mr. Maberly
said, he considered the check which it was the object of his amendment to impose upon the directors, indispensably necessary. The Bank had departed from all the true principles of banking, as appeared from their own statements. When he spoke of the statements of the Bank, he did not allude to any public document, but to those detached portions of information, which, from time to time, escaped from gentlemen connected with the Bank. It was admitted that the Bank had contracted to pay 13,000,000
l.
l.
900
Mr. Pearse
said, that the proprietors of Bank stock, who were chiefly merchants of the highest character and talents, though naturally anxious to obtain a knowledge of the concerns of the establishment with which they were connected, were nevertheless so satisfied of the abuse which might be made in the commercial world of the information, which the hon. member desired to have made public, that they had constantly resisted every endeavour which particular individuals had made to procure its production.
Mr. Irving
said, it had been remarked, that it was difficult to ascertain at what particular period there were too many or too few Bank-notes in circulation. The correctness of that observation had been established by recent events. A few months back 20,000,000
l.
l.
901
s.,
l.
l.
l.
The Chancellor of the Exchequer
observed, that the question suggested by the hon. member for Abingdon did not require the committee to go into these details. The hon. member wished simply for the whole amount of the Bank issues; it was therefore unnecessary to go into details.
Sir John Newport
said, that the public had a right to claim of the Bank the information required, and no possible danger could result from affording it.
Mr. Manning
said, that if the return was made as required, it would tend rather to mislead than to inform the House; for the subject could not be understood without many details.
Mr. Maberly
said, he would not press the amendment to a division.
902
The amendment was then negatived. On the succeeding clause being put,
Mr. Hume
said, that as the House had not adopted a previous suggestion which he had made, he now meant to offer an amendment, which would enable the poor to obtain payment from country bankers of their one-pound notes. He held in his hand the act of 37 Geo. 3rd. one clause, of which enacted, that if any country banker should refuse to pay gold for his small notes, within three days of demand, it was in the power of any magistrate to distrain upon his property by summary process. The 37th Geo. 3rd, had fixed the period at three days, but a subsequent act, passed in the same session, had made it seven days, and thus it had continued throughout all the subsequent measures, until it was left out altogether. He reasonably believed that the omission had not been intentional. At present, a person holding a one-pound country bank-note was in a similar situation to a person holding any commercial promissory note, or other undertaking to pay. The holder of the one-pound note, in order to recover its value, must bring his action against the banker; which was attended with great expense, and occasioned a delay of six months. Under these circumstances, the poor had no means of recovering the value of any small note they might hold. What poor man could bring such an action against a banker? It was absolutely necessary to give the public some summary means of redress against country bankers who issued more paper than they could command specie to meet it. The substance of his clause was, that if any banker should refuse to pay in specie the value of his note longer than seven days, the magistrate might proceed by summary process.
The Chancellor of the Exchequer
said, that the purport of this bill was to replace the currency in the state it was in prior to the Bank Restriction act, at which period no clause like this existed, nor was there any such compulsory mode of proceeding. He thought the proposal liable to serious objection, and that it would be almost impossible for country bankers to carry on business if it were adopted. It was no justification of the proposal to ground it upon antecedent measures. Creditors of a country banker holding promissory notes would by this means have a better hold upon him than other
903
Mr. Hudson Gurney
said, the hon. gentleman's amendment was intirely at variance with the principle of the bill. The hon. gentleman wished the continuance of the issue of small notes, under such regulation as should protect the public from inconvenience; but the object of the bill was to put an end to them, and (if it could be compassed) by such gradual extinction as would allow of their being replaced by a better medium. If the hon. gentleman's clause were admitted, in the present temper of the country, no banker, in his senses, would issue another note.
Colonel Johnson
said, unless the clause was adopted, the poorer classes would have no means of recovering payment for their notes but by an action at law, which was leaving them without any remedy.
Mr. Monck
observed, that country bankers could not object to the proposed clause at the present time, when specie could be so much more easily obtained than when it was formerly in existence. How could a poor man compel the payment of his note in specie, when he was forced to bring an action? The clause had been continued in all the Bank Restriction acts, until the 3rd of his present majesty, when it was left out. It would be strange that the clause should be continued when there was no specie to pay, and expunged when there was. If they did not adopt this clause, they would allow gold to be put out of circulation, and trash of paper to be substituted in its places, without giving any remedy to recover its payment but by an action at law. Such a course was the reverse of returning to a metallic currency.
Mr. Alderman Heygate
said, the hon. member charged the country bankers with putting gold out of circulation, and substituting trash of paper in its place. Now, in 1797, country bankers had no more to do with issuing notes than the rest of the king's subjects. The gold was sent out of the country by government to defray the expenses of the war, and one-pound notes were then issued at the recommendation of Mr. Pitt; and, in 1822, they were again allowed to be issued with the unanimous concurrence of the House. During all this period, so far were the country bankers from being abused, that they were lauded as of great benefit to
904
Mr. Warre
observed, that the worthy alderman admitted, in using the words of the hon. member who preceded him, "that gold was put out of circulation, and trash of paper substituted for it," that there could not be a current circulation of the one-pound note and a sovereign. This was the plain English of the words; but indeed it was already pretty well known, from good authority, that they could not co-exist. When country bankers issued their one-pound notes, and these notes filled up the place of gold, what was it but issuing so much trash? But it was said, that country bankers derived no profit from these issues—that they would be better pleased to be precluded from issuing one-pound notes. This he was not very willing to believe. If they so expressed themselves, it must be a sort of nolo episcopari. That they were so inconvenient, onerous, burthensome, and what not, he could not believe. That they were profitable he had no doubt, and that in proportion to the amount of their circulation. He drew a distinction between the holder of a one-pound note and the holder of a promissory note. The claim of the holder of the currency was much stronger. He had no choice; he was obliged to have it whether he would or not; but the holder of a promissory note had a choice; he might refuse it if he pleased. The lower classes, particularly, had no choice left them but to take this trash; and, if they were obliged to take it, they had a right to have a more summary power for its recovery.
Sir R. Wilson
was of opinion, that the clause proposed was in favour of country bankers, and one which they ought to support. The universal complaint was, that their notes were discredited. It must, then, be their wish to impart credit to them. If the clause was introduced, many persons would take their notes who would otherwise refuse them, and thence credit would be restored to this part of the circulation.
Mr. Hume
would ask the right hon. the Secretary for Foreign Affairs, who described the situation of the lower classes, with respect to these one-pound notes, in
905
Lord A. Hamilton
observed, that the bill itself was a compulsory measure to force the payment of gold instead of paper. It had been argued, on a former occasion, by the right hon. Secretary for Foreign Affairs, and the President of the Board of Trade, that, according to the state of the law, the bankers were bound to pay on demand; but was it not a mockery to oblige men to bring an action at law to compel them? The amendment, let it be remembered, was not proposed to extend beyond notes under 5
l.
Mr. Monck
said, that if this clause was not adopted, the holders of small notes would be in a worse situation than they were in 1797, and up to 1823; for, up to the 3rd of the present king, the clause now proposed had been law; so that if it were a hardship, it was one to which the country bankers were accustomed. If they were compelled to issue small notes, they might have some reason to complain; but now they must take the good and the bad together. When they knew that it was always in contemplation to return to a metallic currency, they had no reason to complain that they would now be compelled to pay in gold by a summary process.
Mr. Abercromby
said, that when this question was brought under discussion last session, on the occasion of a petition being presented by the hon. member for Montrose, from a person in Bristol, complaining that he had been refused gold for notes, he then entertained the opinion, that a summary process would be most expedient on account of the deficiency of security to the holders of one-pound notes. But the circumstances of the country were now essentially different. When the question was then discussed, the country was inundated with country notes, many of which were now swept away. The principle upon which there was an extension of time in the original measure was to prevent the too rapid contraction of the issues. To guard against this danger he supported that measure. The clause of his hon. friend would, he thought, increase that rapidity, and there-
906
Mr. Home Drummond
said, he differed from the hon. and learned gentleman in considering the present proposition as tending to force the one-pound notes more rapidly out of circulation, by diminishing their credit. On the contrary, he was inclined to think that the certainty of obtaining the value of them in a summary manner would tend to maintain the public confidence in that species of circulation. In Scotland the process for recovering all small debts under eight pounds was extremely summary, and not very dissimilar from that provided by the clause in question, with regard to one-pound notes; and he believed that the facility with which debts could be recovered in Scotland, contributed to maintain the credit of bankers notes in that country. If, therefore, he was not to vote for the proposition of the hon. member, it could only be on the ground that he did not see why this advantage should be given in the case of one-pound notes (for such he considered it both to debtor and creditor) over every other species of small debt.
Mr. Hume
said, he expected his proposition would be supported by every banker in the House; but he would not rely on the bankers alone; he should expect the support of the ministers themselves. The system in its present form, afforded no security. The bankers might again get out immense amounts of notes, and might again spend large sums for their own living, as too many had done, if there were not some check upon such a system. He was sorry to see the day arrived when Mr. Cobbett's prophecies were realised; when, in fact, they were threatened with his feast of the gridiron. The prophecies had been realized; for the ministers now, in reality, acknowledged that notes were not equal to gold; that they were admitted to be not convertible into gold; and that was the fact respecting them, if the amount in specie could be rufused by bankers, and not be recovered but by an action. He would enforce his proposition, if he divided alone; but he expected he should have the support of every solvent banker in the House [Cries of "Order."]
Mr. R. Martin
considered the expression of the hon. member to be unwarrantable and indecent. To imply that there were insolvent bankers in the House was indecent.
907
Mr. Martin
said, that if he was disorderly, he begged pardon; but he would ask whether the hon. member was entitled to say, when there were bankers of great opulence and respectability sitting in the House, "I expect every solvent banker will vote with me." If that was not disorder, he did not know what disorder was. It followed that if those persons did not vote with the hon. member, they were to be published as insolvent. Such language was indecent.
The Chancellor of the Exchequer
thought the House ought not to be involved in a discussion on this subject. The hon. member would perhaps be willing to admit that the use of the word "solvent" was not quite proper. He was sure he would say it to save the House from a squabble.
Mr. Hume
explained. He had first said "every banker," and admitted that afterwards he had used the word "solvent," though without any individual application.
Mr. Secretary Canning
said, that this clause would imply an injurious degree of suspicion, and throw unnecessary discredit on the country banks. There was a good deal of difference in the situation in which they now stood from that in which they were in last year respecting this part of the currency. Then it was expected that the small notes were to continue for a considerable period; and if the system were to be continued, it might be advisable to consider the propriety of adopting some such remedy as the one now proposed, to remedy the evil now complained of. But what had the House resolved to do? Not that the small-note system should continue, but that it should altogether be put an end to in three years. The measure was to facilitate the return to cask payments, and to decrease the inconveniences that might result from the suddenness of the measure. It was at first imagined that inconvenience would result from suddenly contracting the issues of small country notes. He thought such would not be the case, but he had found that inconveniences would result from a sudden contraction of the currency, and therefore had they been obliged to remedy this evil by substituting, for an extended period, the Bank of England small notes.
908
Lord Milton
was of opinion, that if the bill passed with the clause, the evil would be increased tenfold. He was sorry that ministers should have thought it necessary to introduce the measure at all. In his view, the measure was calculated to do nothing but mischief to the country; and if he had been present at its introduction, he would have voted against it. What did the bill do but create fresh alarm, when the only cure for the evil was to inspire confidence? The persons against whom it was directed were not those whose flimsy means had failed in the panic before Christmas, but those who, by weathering the storm, had given proof of their competence and security. He regretted that ministers had legislated at all upon the subject. If left to themselves, matters would in due time have found their level. As it was, he could not conceal his Opinion from the House, that the end of the panic was not yet arrived. He believed, on the contrary, that the most serious period of the storm was yet to come; and felt convinced that what had been done by government would only aggravate the danger. As he was decidedly hostile to legislating at all, he thought that the fewer powers the bill passed with the better, and he should therefore resist the proposition of the hon. member for Aberdeen.
Lord A. Hamilton
could understand very well how the noble lord could object to the clause, objecting as he did to the bill altogether, but he was at a loss to understand how those who had introduced the bill could object to a clause calculated to ensure its effect.
The committee divided: For the clause, 19; Against it 163. Majority 144.
List of the Minority.
Burdett, sir F.
Griffith, P. W.
Denman, T.
Hamilton, lord A
Evans, W.
Hobhouse, J. C.
909
Johnson, Col
Warre, J. A.
Knight, R.
Webb, col.
Leader, W.
White, S.
Leycester, R.
Wilson, sir R.
Maule, hon. W.
Wood, alderman.
Monck, J. B.
Nugent, lord
TELLER.
Sykes, S.
Hume, Joseph.
Mr. Hume
again rose. He said, that he held in his hand four or five Bank notes, such as those which were to form the circulating medium of the country, and carry the House to the accomplishment of its object. Now, he called the attention of the committee to the inconsistency of ministers, for the notes which he held in his hand were not, strictly speaking, convertible into gold upon demand, and the holder was left to his remedy by an action at law. It was true that a rich man might obtain justice in this way; but what was to become of the humble holder of a single pound note, about the necessity of relieving whom so much had been said? It appeared that ministers were about to leave the poor man without any remedy whatever. The country banks were all alike; their "promise to pay" was false. They would not pay their notes in the country unless compelled to do so. One of the notes he held in his hand was the issue of a Warwick bank for five pounds, and it ran thus—"I promise to pay at the banking-house of sir R. C. Glyn and Co., London, the sum of five pounds, for value received here." But the receiver of this note in the country, "for value received," could not convert it into specie, unless he hired an agent in London, or came to town himself; and, in the latter event, the expenses of the journey would absorb the whole of the money. Another note belonged to the Stratford-upon-Avon bank, and was so much worn as to be scarcely legible. He would state, in order to show how long these rags would last, that this note was dated 1818, so that it had been eight years in circulation—a proof how little the return of stamps issued yearly was likely to show the actual number of such notes in circulation. All these notes were payable in London only. As this was an extreme hardship, he proposed to enact that, in future, all promissory notes should be made payable at the places whence they were issued.
Mr. Huskisson
said, that it was his intention to propose a clause to that effect. When an hon. member first stated, that
910
l.
Mr. Calcraft
was satisfied the hon. member for Montrose had no doubt of the solvency of all those banks whose notes he had so ostentatiously displayed. The hon. gentleman had shown his confidence in the notes, by keeping them in his possession; and no doubt he entertained a sanguine hope that now they had anwered the purposes of his speech, they would not be refused payment.
Mr. Benett
thought it would be advisable that the notes of country bankers should be made payable in the country and in London also.
Sir J. Wrottesley
said, it would be a great hardship to compel country bankers to make their notes payable in two places, as in that case they would be obliged to provide double funds to meet the demands in each place.
Mr. Huskisson
was not prepared to compel country bankers to pay their notes in London, but he felt it right that they should pay them where they were issued, leaving it at their option to make them payable elsewhere also.
Sir W. Ridley
said, he had not been aware that there were such things as notes not payable at the place of issue. There were none such, he could take upon himself to state, current in the north.
Mr. S. Rice
said, that the notes issued by the branches of the Bank of Ireland were all made payable only in Dublin.
Mr. Attwood
said, that his majesty's ministers had throughout acted, with respect to this measure, in the greatest degree of ignorance of the actual state of the country, and the nature and operation1 of its currency. They had at one moment rejected a measure proposed to them, and in twenty-four hours after, and under precisely the same circumstances, they had come down and themselves proposed the adoption of that very measure. The right hon. Secretary for Foreign Affairs had told them, on the authority of another
911
Mr. Mansfield
rose to set the hon. member for Callington right, upon the custom which he said was so general in the midland counties. The fact was, that in Leicestershire all notes above one pound were made payable, both at the place of their issue and in London. And he would add, as a practical man, that, in ordinary times, he could not see what difference it could make to a country banker whether he paid his 5
l.
l.
Mr. Secretary Canning
said, that the hon. member for Calling ton had reproached ministers with having acted without consulting practical men. He could assure that hon. gentleman, that they had consulted those whom they considered best informed upon the subject, and had done their best to procure the necessary information. The hon. member had complained also, that ministers had ill-treated country bankers, and had imputed to them an attempt to thwart the measures of government by suddenly narrowing their issues. They had not directly made that charge before; but if the hon. member would have it out, he now asserted that the country bankers had, by suddenly narrowing their issues, endeavoured to defeat the measure now before the com-
912
Mr. Hudson Gurney
said, that if any combination or understanding amongst the country bankers to call in their smaller notes, in order to defeat the measures of government, existed, he was entirely ignorant of it, and totally disbelieved its existence. He wished to meet the right hon. gentleman's assertion with all deference; but thought he must have been greatly misinformed on the subject. The House in which he was concerned, had never issued one-pound notes; and, therefore, personally he could wash his hands of the imputation. The branches, indeed, connected with that Bank had been in the habit of issuing them, and, he believed, continued issuing them still; but every one knew, particularly since the commencement of these debates, that the small notes being brought in on the bankers for payment, the amount in circulation must, of necessity, have been much reduced.—The hon. member for Montrose wished this private issue to be continued without limit. He (Mr. G.) wished to see it put an end to; and he was satisfied the only possible way in which the measures of government could have been carried into effect, was by the course which they had recently taken; namely, the allowing the Bank of England to continue to stamp their notes for a certain limited time, in order to take the place of the country paper, which might be cancelled or discredited. He acquitted the right hon. gentleman opposite of any inconsistency in conceding this alteration of their original plan; but he must repeat, that it had been forced on them by the obvious necessity of the case, and not by any conspiracy of the country bankers.
Mr. J. Martin
thought it would be a great tax upon country bankers to make them find a fund for the payment of their notes in two places.
Mr. Calcraft
said, he was bound to enter his protest against the imputations which the right hon. Foreign Secretary had cast upon the country bankers, and to say that he defied the right hon. gentleman to prove his assertion, or to show that there had been the slightest combination among them for the purpose of withdrawing their notes. That the notes had been withdrawn was the fault of ministers themselves. They had cried them down when they were the main, and almost the only currency of the country; and the consequence was, that the bankers
913
Mr. Sykes
said, that the suggestion for making the country notes payable both in London and in the country, would impose the greatest hardship upon the bankers. Not only would the country bankers be under the necessity of providing double deposits, but their notes would no longer form part of the local circulation of their districts. He felt convinced that the country bankers were incapable of yielding to the impulse of such a principle as that imputed to them.
Mr. Attwood
said, that nothing could more clearly show the gross ignorance of his majesty's ministers, of the real state of the circulation, than what had just fallen from the right hon. Secretary, relative to country bankers. His observation was utterly at variance with their credit and character, and he was quite sure the country would think so as soon as the expression used by the right hon. gentleman found its way abroad. He would venture to say, that a degree of ignorance, almost incredible, prevailed amongst those who ought to be acquainted with the real state of the country. He did not pretend to say that, in some of the country banking establishments, an erroneous system might not have been pursued; but he denied that this was the general character of the banking system throughout the country. After what had been stated by the hon. member for Leicester, he begged to withdraw what he had said of the midland banks, as far as regarded the banks of that district.
Mr. Alderman Heygate
said, that if a disposition to contract their circulation had been observable amongst the country bankers, it had not arisen from a wish to
914
Mr. Carus Wilson
was acquainted with three country banks, whose notes were always payable at the places from whence they were issued; and this was certainly the most secure guarantee to the public, as the property and responsibility of country bankers must be better known at the places in which they reside than at a distance. For this reason he should give his cordial support to a measure which would have the effect of making country bank notes payable on demand at the places from which they were issued.
Mr. Huskisson
said, that the clause he meant to propose would, he believed, meet all the objections. That clause would compel the payment of all notes under 20
l.
The clause proposed by Mr. Huskisson was then agreed to.
Mr. Hume
next proposed a clause, by which the public should be made acquainted, at specified periods, with the number of notes issued by the Bank of England.
The Chancellor of the Exchequer
did not mean to say that some arrangement of this kind might not hereafter be advisable, but he felt considerable objection to the adoption of such a proposition now. If such a motion was agreed to, it would be leading to surmise and speculation with respect to particular banks, and such surmise and speculation would probably lead to disastrous consequences. He therefore hoped the hon. member would not press it.
The clause was withdrawn.
Mr. Monck
rose to move a clause, pro-
915
l.
s.
Mr. Rickford
opposed the proposition. It appeared, that some gentlemen thought the chancellor of the Exchequer had not done sufficient to injure the country bankers, and came forward, in consequence, to assist him.
The Chancellor of the Exchequer
could not conceive any principle, in law or equity, which could bear out the hon. member in giving, a preference to one set of creditors over another. Where was this preference, if once allowed, to stop?
The clause was negatived, and the House resumed.
HOUSE OF LORDS.
Tuesday, February 28, 1826.
CORN LAWS.
Lord King
said, he had a petition, against the job of jobs, the Corn-laws, to present, from the city of Rochester. He thought the people in a Kentish town might justly complain of the tax; because, in the next county to Kent, the county of Calais, corn might be got for little more than half the price that it could be bought for in Kent. It was quite natural for them to wish to abolish the Corn-laws, which made this great difference. The Kentish landlords might say, that if the price were reduced one-half, the whole agricultural interest would be ruined. But if, by repealing the Corn-laws, the price would be reduced one-half, which he did not believe would be the case, that only, more fully exposed the folly of that act, by which the power of 8 great confederacy was enabled to enforce so enormous a tax on the community at large for the benefit of the landlords and parsons.
The Earl of Darnley
put it to the good sense and the good nature of his noble, friend whether he thought the agitation of this delicate question, night after, night, could be of spy service; or whether, indeed, it could be productive of any thing but evil. If his noble friend was resolved not to follow the wise course marked out by ministers, not to agitate this topic in the
916
Lord King
said, that knowing from what quarter this good advice came, he could not think of following it. His noble friend might pursue one course; but he was determined to persevere in another. His noble friend joined in the sentiments of a noble earl, who on a former night had expressed a hope that "little harangues" would not be made on this subject. Now, that might be a very good course for those who were supporters of the Corn-laws, but it was one which he could never adopt, decidedly opposed as he was to those laws. The reasons urged to induce him to abstain from those "little harangues" were precisely those which must induce him to persevere. The opponents of the Corn-laws had no chance of success, but by the subject being debated day after day. They had already been jilted on one, or two occasions, when it was expected the question would be brought under consideration.
The Earl of Lauderdale
said, the noble lord must have a very different idea of debating a question, from what he entertained, if he thought such a perpetual recurrence to it, a debate. Last session he had constantly made attacks on the bench of bishops, and seemed to suppose that was debating the Catholic question. In the same manner he had attacked the learned lord on the woolsack, as if he supposed that he was debating the Chancery question, while he was uttering witticisms on the lord chancellor. The noble lord must have a very strange idea of debating, if he supposed that sarcasms, or downright abuse, of the landed interest, was the best method of discussing the Corn question. The noble lord had said they wished to starve the poor; but when there was
917
The Duke of Athol
said, that the noble lord had lately presented a similar petition from the weavers of Perth, who, a few years ago, in a time of general distress, were principally supported by the landed interest. Not less than 1,500 of them were maintained entirely at the expense of the landed proprietors, and he had in his possession a letter expressing their grateful thanks for the succour afforded to them. The petition which they had intrusted to the noble lord was a poor return for so much kindness on the part of the landed interest. The noble lord endeavoured to irritate the poor against the landed interest, and in doing this, he seemed to be guided neither by wisdom nor good sense, nor gentlemanly conduct. Such attacks were derogatory to the dignity of their lordships. He pledged himself, whenever the question was brought forward, to examine it without any regard to individual interest, but solely with a view to its effects on the interests of the whole kingdom.
Lord King
said, that he should always tell the truth, whether it were agreeable to the noble duke or not. As to the petition from Perth, he knew nothing more of it than that it was put into his hands to present to their lordships; but if the noble duke had formerly 1,500 weavers to subsist, he was likely, under the present system, to have 3000 next year. A noble earl had implied, that he had been the cause of the Bank Restriction act; but, in this the noble earl had made a strange mistake, for the Bank Restriction act was passed in 1797, and the transaction to which he alluded did not take place till 1811. The noble earl might have learned the reason for his conduct, if he had turned to a noble lord (Bexley) a few paces on his left hand. On a certain day in June, in that year, the then chancellor of the Exchequer had placed a resolution on the Journals of the House of Commons, declaring that the paper circulation of the country and gold were equivalent in value. He was astonished how so absurd, so contemptible a statement, could have been made by any man, and still more astonished that it should have been gravely re-
918
The Earl of Limerick
, recommended the noble lord, for his own sake, not to repeat the same story every day, or, like the parrots, it might happen not to attract attention.
Ordered to lie on the table.
HOUSE OF COMMONS.
Tuesday, February 28, 1826.
SLAVERY.
Numerous petitions were presented, praying for the Abolition of Slavery.
Lord Palmerston
, on presenting one from the University of Cambridge, said, that the petitioners highly approved of the resolutions passed by that House in 1823, and the zeal with which the government had acted in endeavouring to carry the object into effect. He was glad to have the honour of presenting this petition. It could not but be gratifying to all those who wished well to the cause, to see the University of Cambridge taking a prominent part among those who were desirous of putting an end, in a gradual and practical manner, to negro slavery in the colonies. It would have been strange if it had been otherwise among those who were to prepare, and those who were to become future legislators of Great Britain.
919
Ordered to be printed.
MILITARY DISCIPLINE—TENTH HUSSARS.
Sir F. Burdett
said, he was anxious to put a question relative to a subject of considerable importance. He wished to inquire whether the attention of the commander-in-chief had been called to a very extraordinary statement, relative to the treatment experienced by a soldier in Exeter, and which, if true, would demand an immediate inquiry.
Mr. Peel
replied, that as he happened to be in possession of some information on the subject, he would communicate it to
920
Sir H. Vivian
said, that the statement was, to a great extent, exaggerated. An offer was made to the officer concerned, that the columns of a newspaper would be open to his refutation of the statement; but he replied, that he did not think it worth his while to reply to any thing that might appear in a newspaper, but would assist the investigation which the commander-in-chief had directed. The lieutenant-colonel was accordingly sent down to Exeter, and an inquiry would be immediately instituted. Knowing the prejudice which last year had been excited against that regiment most unjustly, he was disposed to think the statement was greatly exaggerated. He verily believed, that so far from there being any foundation for blame against the commanding officer, the transaction arose entirely from the strong inclination which he felt to avoid the infliction of corporal punishment, and which induced him to resort to severe drills and other punishments as substitutes.
COMMERCIAL DISTRESS.
Mr. Thomas Wilson
being loudly called on by the House, said, that before he proceeded with the motion of which he had given notice, for a select committee to inquire into the present distresses of the commercial world, he wished to know from the chancellor of the Exchequer, whether any thing had occurred, in the course of the day, to render it necessary for him to make a communication to the House?
The Chancellor of the Exchequer
said, that in answer to the appeal which had been made to him by the hon. member for the city of London, he had to state to the House, that a communication had taken place between his majesty's Government and the Bank, for the purpose of ascertaining how far that body would be disposed to extend relief to the existing depression in the trading, commercial, and manu-
921
Mr. T. Wilson
said, after what had fallen from the chancellor of the Exchequer, it would only be necessary for him to make a very few observations; although be thought the right hon. gentleman might have gone further. It was of the highest importance, that if any thing more was intended, it should be perfectly understood, and that the House should be rightly informed on the subject. What he understood to be the case was, that a communication had been made, that there was no disinclination to the proposition on the part of the Bank, and that that body would make an advance of three millions of money, upon goods, on the understanding that the government would bring forward some measure to bear them harmless, and afford some facilities in regard to their issues until October. If this was the nature of the arrangement, he should hail it with the utmost satisfaction. The Bank had done themselves honour to a degree, far beyond his powers of description; but he was unable to express the same sentiment towards his majesty's government. They had allowed the distresses of the country to proceed to too great an extent, and they were quite culpable in allowing such a state of things to exist from week to week, without adopting some measure of relief. However, he was happy that an arrangement had been come to; and if the proposed relief would have the effect of invigorating trade, and restoring public credit, he should not be fastidious as to the mode; although he was convinced that the measure proposed was not the best way of affording relief. But he hoped the advance of three millions would produce very general good. The country was much indebted to the Bank for using their best efforts to diminish the present alarming distress. The relief would not apply to the merchants of London merely, but to the commercial and manufacturing interests of the country. The Bank had done their duty nobly, and he should therefore ask for leave to withdraw the motion of which he had given notice.
922
The Chancellor of the Exchequer
said, that, before that motion was acceded to, he was desirous to reply more specifically to the points adverted to by the hon. member for London. He had before stated, that the question was under the consideration of the Bank, as to the best mode of extending aid to remove the present distresses of the country. He had now to state, that it was the intention of the Bank to carry their advances to a point not exceeding three millions. They would not, of course, be bound to go to that extent, but that was the utmost limit to which they would feel themselves justified in advancing. It was stated to the Bank, that it was the intention of government to propose to parliament, in the course of the session, a measure by which a considerable portion of the advances made by the Bank to Government would be paid off; and he had now further to add, that his right hon. friend, the president of the Board of Trade, meant to submit to parliament the propriety of accelerating the period at which the measure he had introduced last session, relative to the law of Merchant and Factor, should come into operation. His right hon. friend would do so for the purpose of effecting the objects which the House had in view when that measure was submitted to their consideration, and of facilitating the purpose which they now had in view. It was only at a late period of the day that he had been made acquainted with what the Bank had proposed to do; it was, therefore, impossible he could have communicated it earlier. Under these circumstances, he thought the hon. member for London would be acting a prudent part in withdrawing his motion.
Mr. Pearse
thought it necessary to set the House right as to the communication which had been made. The Bank was strongly of opinion, that the other mode of relieving the distress of the country would be much preferable to that now under consideration; but being most desirous to meet the present difficulties of the country, they had consented to waive their own opinions. He was sanguine in his expectations that so much money would not be required. Confidence was the great thing to be established; and he was satisfied that confidence would be restored even by the knowledge that something was about to be done.
Mr. Ellice
was desirous to know whether it was in contemplation to extend
923
The Chancellor of the Exchequer
replied, that the precise mode in which the plan might be carried into effect he was unable to state. One of the main considerations which had influenced the Bank, in the course they proposed to adopt, was the hope of being able to contribute to the relief, not merely of the city of London, but in an especial manner to diminish the distress which existed in the manufacturing districts.
Mr. Tierney
wished to be informed whether it was intended to proceed by bill on the measure for securing the Bank?
The Chancellor of the Exchequer
said, he had not stated that it was the intention of government to bear the Bank harmless. All he had said was, that government meant to propose to parliament a measure which would reduce the advances made by the Bank to government, and relieve the Bank from the embarrassment consequent thereon. Nor was it his intention to propose any bill for the purpose of establishing a commission. The measure which government meant to propose, was one that would afford relief, by accelerating the operation of the law between merchant and factor.
Mr. Tierney
said, he understood the right hon. gentleman perfectly, but was sorry he could not agree with him. He was still convinced, as strongly as when he had first expressed the opinion, of the propriety of issuing Exchequer-bills; and although he, believed the proposed measure might have a good effect, still he was persuaded it would not have the desirable effect of restoring confidence. But he was at a loss to know how to argue this question; for, in fact, there was nothing begun: but he trusted some opportunity would be afforded him and his friends of expressing their opinions on the subject. It appeared to him that the measure they talked about was nothing more than a mere, shift to do something, which, in effect was nothing. The Bank had certainly behaved very kindly in putting themselves in the gap when nobody else would. But then, this measure did not come recommended by their approval. It was not brought forward like the measure of Mr. Pitt, which was recommended by a committee. The House was asked to adopt it, because, forsooth, a noble
924
The Chancellor of the Exchequer
said, he did not feel very sensible of the accommodation proffered by the right hon. gentleman, in requesting a convenient opportunity for censuring the conduct of himself and the government. However, he must say he should hare no objection to meet the discussion on fair grounds, if the right hon. gentleman should think proper to bring forward, the question in the shape of a specific motion, or should avail himself of the opportunity of his right hon. friend's motion relating to the law of Merchant and Factor. He understood the right hon. gentleman to want an opportunity for calling the attention of the House to the question; if so, he had better choose his own day, and then the government would do their best to contend with the arguments of the right hon. gentleman.
Mr. Manning
thought it would be much more convenient to the merchants to have a commission established; but, as the measure had only been agreed upon that afternoon, it would be impossible to enter into all its details at present.
Sir Francis Burdett
said, he thought the conduct of government calculated to ispire any thing but confidence. As
925
926
927
Mr. Brougham
said, he did not rise for the purpose of continuing this discussion, which, it must be admitted, was already sufficiently irregular. He could not, however, allow the present opportunity to pass without stating, that he concurred with every observation which had fallen from his right hon. friend, the member for Knaresborough, and with almost every observation which had fallen from the hon. baronet at the close of his speech. If the measure which they had heard of for the first time that night were one which ought to be resorted to at all, it ought to have been resorted to before the present moment. The true mode for government to have acted was to have one openly, fairly, and at once, that which u was bow going to do in a round-about way—in a way of which the Bank, if it were called upon to make advances to the extent, or to half the extent, of the sum which they had just heard, would be the first party to repent; for the arrangement into which it had entered was as contrary to all the true principles of banking as any measure could possibly be.
Mr. Secretary Canning
said, that when the fit opportunity should arrive, he would undertake to show, in the first place, that this measure was not the same as an issue of Exchequer-bills, and that many of the objections which applied to such an issue did not apply to it; and, in the second place, that the reluctance of government to issue Exchequer-bills was not founded upon any idle respect to the words of a noble earl, but upon a candid and anxious investigation of all the objections to which it was liable, and a sincere conviction that it was not their duty to consent to such a proposal. That opinion he would under-take to justify at the proper season, by such arguments as he trusted the House would deem conclusive.
Mr. Tierney
said, that, as a motion regarding the issue of Exchequer-bills stood for that night, he gave the right hon. gen-
928
The motion was then withdrawn.
EXCHEQUER BILLS FOR PUBLIC WORKS.
Mr. Ellice
said, that after the declaration which his right hon. friend had just made, of his intention to discuss the propriety of the Bank advancing money upon deposits, to merchants, upon the motion which he then held in his hand, he felt himself justified in saying, that be fully concurred with his right hon. friend in the remarks which he had made upon that notable project. He did think, that if government had come down to the House immediately after the speech from the throne; if they had brought forward their financial statement for the year, and had announced their intention of relieving the Bank of the debt which they owed it, and of reducing it to purchase Exchequer-bills in the market for the sake of increasing their price; and if they had further stated that they were ready to advance Exchequer-bills to merchants on their goods, they would not only have restored the country to confidence, but would have given that facility to the execution of their own measures, which would have been highly advantageous to their successful accomplishment. Having said thus much upon that subject, he would leave it in the hands of his right hon. friend, who was much better able to discuss it than he was, and would proceed forthwith to the explanation1 of his own motion. It would be in the recollection of the House, that two acts had passed, enabling his majesty's government to issue to commissioners Exchequer-bills, to be employed towards the completion of public works and for the employment of the poor. The commissioners under these two acts had proceeded from year to year, to make sundry advances to different classes of individuals for the purpose of carrying on public works and employing the necessitous poor. Reports had been from time to time laid before the Treasury, which had always found their; why to the table of the House; but he did not find there had been any direct return to a motion to lay on the table an account of all Issues made by the commissioners, and which appeared the more expedient, as such a measure was directly pointed out by the acts to which
929
The Chancellor of the Exchequer
said, he hoped that, in objecting to the terms in which this motion was couched, he should not be deemed captious. To the main object of the motion he did not mean to
930
Mr. Hume
did not see the weight of the objection. The names of the parties at least, if not the nature of the securities, ought to be laid before parliament, that it might be seen whether or not the advances had been made to the persons, and for the purposes contemplated by the acts.
Mr. Ellice
thought it quite necessary that he should have the names of the persons to whom the various advances had been made. With respect to the securities, he only wanted to know the nature of them; and the return would be sufficient, if it stated that the money had been lent upon personal security, or on the rates or tolls. He by no means wanted to know the names of the persons who had become securities for the repayment of the advances.
Mr. Tierney
then rose. He said, that he had come down to the House in the hope that some discussion would take place respecting the measure proposed with respect to the Bank. He now, however, understood, that, owing to some arrangement which had been made, the Bank of England were, with the sanction of government, to take upon themselves to issue Exchequer-bills to the amount of 3,000,000
l.
931
932
933
934
935
936
l.
l.
l.
l.
l.
937
l.
l.
l.
938
939
940
941
The Chancellor of the Exchequer
said, that if he thought any consideration which he could give to the subject, after the full consideration which it must be obvious he had already bestowed upon it, could induce him to think that the mode of proceeding which the right hon. gentleman recommended was the most advisable to be pursued, he could assure him, that no unwillingness to abandon his own system, no fear of any reproaches which might be cast, upon hint for want of firmness or consistency, would induce him to abstain from adopting it; but the more deliberately he had considered the measure which the right hon. gentleman recommended as best calculated to effect what they all had in view, in relation either to the arguments which were advanced for
942
943
l.
944
945
946
l.
l.
947
l.
l.
l.
l.
l.
948
l.
l.
949
s.
950
Mr. Baring
observed, that the question divided itsell, in the right hon. gentle-
951
952
953
954
955
956
Lord Althorp
said, that he did not wish to look for cases of precedent. It was admitted that this was a period of great commercial distress, and the question was, whether ministers would or would not step forward to relieve the trade and commerce of the country? He fully concurred with them in the necessity of placing the currency upon a permanent footing, and he thought that the present was a favourable moment for doing so, but concurrently with that measure, they were bound to take every means to relieve the existing distress. It was true the Bank of England had, by its charter, the power to lend money upon goods, but it was a power rarely used, and ministers had no right to depend upon the exertions of the Bank in the present emergency. Nor did he see, when an issue of Exchequer-bills on former occasions had been attended with complete success, why the present assistance should have been given in a shape, the conve-
957
Mr. T. Wilson
thought, that ministers were bound, in mere courtesy to parliament, to assign some reason beyond their personal pleasure, why the plan now under discussion was preferred to that which had been recommended to them. For the measure which had been suggested there was at least a precedent; and he still believed that it would have turned out the most advantageous, as well as the most satisfactory to the country. It was said that there could be no difference between borrowing money upon bills of exchange and borrowing it upon goods, especially as the time for which the accommodation was wanted would not exceed a few months; but he doubted very much whether any man of business could be found who would declare, that he thought any such limited extent of accommodation likely to be sufficient. Gentlemen coming up on the spur from the country, and applying to the Bank for relief, might be glad to take it for any period, and on any terms they could get; and such persons might have talked of a few months being sufficient; but certainly no one else could. As to what was said to justify the dislike of ministers now to assist the mercantile interests; namely, that relief had been refused some years since to the distress of the agriculturists—that argument had no force whatever; for the relief to the agriculturalists, though nominally refused, was virtually granted. It was true, that advances were not made by the government: but a measure was passed, empowering the country banks to issue small notes, which had exactly the same operation. As it seemed to him, the precedent of allowing merchants to go to the Bank to borrow money upon goods, was likely to lead to a repetition of such applications, in such a way as would be highly inconvenient. Merchants would go to the Bank, when the custom was once established, upon every occasion which might seem to justify such a measure; whereas, they could not have the face to make application to government, unless in a case of great general national distress. He could not sit down, without protesting against the tone in which ministers had treated both the applicants for relief, and parliament in general. In a case of public calamity, like that in which the country bad been placed, as servants of the Crown, and standing immediately between the
958
Mr. Attwood
condemned the hesitation of government to afford relief at a moment when the whole manufacturing and commercial interests of the country were in one common state of stagnation and distress. And, in this state of things, what was it that they required? They asked no boon. They only asked that the channels of public communication might be restored; that the stagnation which at present prevailed might be relieved by an issue of Exchequer-bills. And this aid they requested at a period of as great distress and panic as any which had ever taken place in this country. What danger could there be in advancing Exchequer-bills? It had been formerly tried, and found to answer all the purposes expected. He hoped the ministers would not, at a future period, turn round upon the Bank, and accuse them of any inconvenience that might arise from the measure which they were now forcing upon that body. The right hon. Secretary had acted, he contended, in total ignorance of the subject, when he said, in 1819, that the measure of that year was to settle the currency question for ever. A metallic currency, with a standard of 3
l.
s.
d.
959
l.
s.
d.
l.
s.
d.
l.
s.
d.
Mr. W. Whitmore
said, he believed that a fair arrangement of the currency of the country would do far more for the general benefit than the measure now proposed; but as relief was to be given, e thought it would be much better given by advances from the Bank than by an issue of Exchequer-bills. With reference to the conduct of ministers, the hon. member for London found fault with their steady adherence to the line which they had adopted; but he could not see the subject in that light. He gave them credit far their steadiness, and thought that nothing but mischief could have resulted from vacillation. He could not concur in opinion with those who wished ministers to abandon the position they had taken. They ought not to be such mere creatures of circumstances as to veer round with every breath of popular opinion. Let them steadily pursue the line of conduct which they had pledged themselves to support, the difficulties which were now complained of would speedily pass away. Nothing which he bad heard ought to deter government from pursuing that sound line of policy which they had declared it to be their determination to Uphold. With respect to what had fallen from the hon. member for Callington, he implored the House not to be
960
l.
l.
s.
d.
961
Mr. Attwood
, in explanation, observed, that the sentiments which had fallen from him would not bear, if fairly examined, the construction which the lion, member had been pleased to put upon them.
Mr. P. Moore
said, it was admitted on all hands, that the country was in a state of great distress; and the question was, whether that distress was or was not to be relieved by the legislature? Unquestionably relief ought to be afforded; and it was their duty to consider what measure appeared most likely to produce an object so desirable. Various reasons were adduced for the existence of the present untoward state of things. Amongst other things, they were told that 25,000,000
l.
l.
962
963
Mr. Ellice
said, in reply, that the present state of things was entirely owing to the plans of ministers. In 1822, a large issue of paper was allowed to meet the agricultural distress. Government was then enabled to reduce the interest on the 5 per cents. There appeared to be plenty of money in the country; individuals wished to procure a higher rate of interest than the funds provided, and they had, in consequence, had recourse to speculation. Instead of encouraging a large issue of paper now, he thought it would be better to grant relief to the country through the medium of Exchequer-bills. If the circulating medium were greatly increased, what would be the effect? A great rise in prices, which would decrease as the circulating medium was narrowed. At in what a situation would be country be then placed? He had hoped that the present conjuncture would have produced some wholesome disagreement between the government and the Bank; and he was sorry that the Bank had not forced the government to abandon their present course. If the Bank had remained firm, government must have yielded the point, and the distress of the country would have given birth to other measures. He regretted very much that the Bank had become instrumental to the adoption of mere half-measures. The proper way to meet the existing distress would have been by an issue of Exchequer-bills.
The motion was agreed to.
PROMISSORY NOTES BILL.
On the order of the day for bringing up the report of, this bill.
Mr. J. Smith
said, he must repeat what he had before said, that the government by bringing this subject before the country as they had done, had created much danger, which they might have avoided by adopting the more prudent course of previous consideration and sedulous inquiry. The evil was said, in the first instance, to have arisen from the speculation which the issues of the private bankers were alleged to have encouraged; and the existing, as well as the apprehended mischief, was now traced to the circumstance of the country bankers paving off their notes, and thus narrowing the circulating medium. One hon. mem-
964
965
Mr. Attwood
said, that the system which he had described prevailed in Wolverhampton, Stratford-upon-Avon, and other places.
Mr. Alderman Heygate
said, he had been represented as having asserted, that the country bankers were perfectly satisfied with this measure. He had stated no such thing. What he had said was, that the country bankers did not wish to throw obstacles in the way of ministers; and that they had done all in their power to arrest the growing distress. The cause of the diminution of their circulation was, the general panic which existed. Being pressed, in consequence of that panic, they wished rather to act at once, than wait for the expiration of three years.
Mr. F. Palmer
rose to express his strong disapprobation of the measure before the House. It was, in his mind, ill-timed, injudicious, and likely to bring most serious distress on the country. In 1822, a great issue of paper took place to meet the distresses of the agricultural interest. They were then said to go on well for a while; but, what was the country better for it now? At length the present misfortunes arose; and now fresh issues of paper-money were resorted to as a remedy. Arguing from the past, would not the state of the country, at a future period, and that not far distant, be just as deplorable as it was at present? The bill, he contended, was no remedy for the evil—It was merely a palliative; and when its effects had passed away, the patient would find himself worse than he was before. If the expenses of the country were not considerably reduced, there could be no safe return to a metallic currency. To attempt one without the other, would bring upon agriculture the severest distress; and then they must come to an amicable, or equitable adjustment—he did not care which term they chose for the purpose. He declared himself no friend to high prices. He knew that the manufacturing interests could not exist with high prices; much less could any natural competition be successful under them. But he knew, also, that if corn were not kept up to a certain price, starvation must ensue amongst the agricultural classes. Ministers had a really difficult task to perform. He believed they were earnest in their endeavours to do right. But here was their difficulty—they must have Tow prices for the manufacturers, and they mint have high prices for the other classes.
966
s.
s.
The report being brought up.
The Chancellor of the Exchequer
said, that there were some alterations which it was of importance should be made in this bill. The first of these was to expunge from the penalty-clauses that which empowered a justice of the peace summarily to levy the penalty inflicted by the act. His proposition was, that instead of this the penalties should be levied in the ordinary way, as in other cases of offences against the Stamp-acts. The other alteration was, that individuals should not be precluded from drawing checks upon their bankers for sums less than 5
l.
Sir M. W. Ridley
said, that some persons had an idea in the north, that no one-pound notes of any description were to remain in circulation after the passing of the bill. If the right hon. gentleman would give that notion a positive contra-
967
The Chancellor of the Exchequer
said, that the object of the bill was the extinction of small notes at the end of three years. But, in his opinion, that extinction should be brought about within three years by as slow degrees as were practicable. If any persons had acted under the idea that small notes were immediately to go out of circulation, they had assuredly laboured under a complete misapprehension.
Mr. Hudson Gurney
expressed a doubt whether, according to the present wording of the clause, any drafts for sums under five pound were not illegal, if they were drawn payable to order and not to bearer.
The Attorney-General
said, that the act of the 17th Geo. 3rd had been brought in to prevent the circulation of one-pound promissory notes, and parliament had thought fit to extend the operation of it to all notes under five pound. The object then in View was, to prevent small bills being given at long dates; which otherwise might have passed and circulated from hand to hand, as the small notes payable on demand had before done. The act, consequently, allowed bills to be drawn on bona fide debtors, at twenty-one days' date, in a certain form contained in the act.
The proposed amendments were then agreed to.
Mr. Denman
hoped, that instead of going to the third reading of the bill, the right hon. gentleman would allow it to be reprinted. He objected to it wholly, as a most impolitic interference with the principles of free trade, which the right hon. gentleman had so honourably supported. This bill was of no effect. The last clause repealed it as to the Bank of England which was still permitted to issue one and two pound notes; a liberty which he did not think could be granted to them with greater propriety than to other banks. As, however, that liberty was reserved to them, he trusted that the Attorney-general would be directed to bring in a bill to mitigate the punishment of forgery, so as to prevent the recurrence of those horrid executions which were produced by the ease with which Bank of England notes might be forged.
The bill as amended was ordered to be printed, and read a third time on Thursday.
968
HOUSE OF COMMONS.
Wednesday, March 1, 1826.
ABOLITION OF SLAVERY.
After numerous petitions had been presented, praying for the Abolition of Slavery,
Mr. Fowell Buxton
rose, pursuant to notice, to present a petition from the inhabitants of London, for the Abolition of Slavery in the Colonies. It was, he said, more numerously signed than any petition that had ever before been presented to the House; the number of signatures being no less than 72,000. Following the petitions already presented that evening from many other populous and enlightened places, it proved beyond all doubt, the great and lively interest taken by the public with regard to this question. He should therefore avail himself of this opportunity, to ask the right hon. Secretary for Foreign Affairs, what was the course his majesty's government intended to pursue, as to the amelioration of the condition of the slave population in the colonies? He would not enter into the general argument of the question but he would state the precise position in which, at this moment, it stood. In 1823, his majesty's government said, that it was a question of such vast importance, and of such extreme delicacy, that they desired to have it placed in their hands. Those by whom it had been brought forward consented to the proposition, and it was accordingly transferred to the care of government. On that occasion the right hon. gentleman stated his opinions very fully regarding the general question of slavery; and, having since attentively and deliberately considered the right hon. gentleman's speech, he could find no material distinction between his views and those of the original promoters of the discussion. The right hon. gentleman was far from attempting to justify the existence of slavery, as a desirable or even tolerable state of society; and he had admitted, that the principles of the Christian religion, and the spirit of the British constitution, were equally favourable to the extension of freedom to all who lived under their influence and protection. The right hon. gentleman was a decided advocate of the gradual extinction of what he treated as an unquestionable evil. He would not trouble the House by reading at length the Resolutions with which the right hon. gentleman, on that occasion, concluded his speech. It was enough to say, that
969
970
971
972
973
On the motion, that it do lie on the table.
Mr. Secretary Canning
rose, and commenced his speech by observing, that before he answered the call of the hon. member, he had been anxious that the petition should be read, in hopes that he should be able to concur with the sentiments contained in it, and he must admit that it appeared to him to be most unexceptionable, and to be stated with great propriety and moderation. He must also, before he replied to the question of the hon. gentleman, request the clerk to read the resolutions of the 15th of May, 1823.
"Resolved, nem. con. That it is expedient to adopt effectual and decisive measures for meliorating the condition of the slave population in his majesty's colonies:
"That, through a determined and persevering, but at the same time judicious and temperate, enforcement of such measures, this House looks forward to a progressive improvement in the character of the slave population, such as may prepare them for a participation in those civil rights and privileges which are enjoyed by other classes of his majesty's subjects:
"That this House is anxious for the accomplishment of this purpose at the earliest period that shall be compatible with the well-being of the slaves themselves, with the safety of the colonies, with a fair and equitable consideration of the interests of private property."
Mr. Secretary Canning
then proceeded to state, that he was anxious to have the resolutions read, because as it had been stated, that a system of slavery was totally incompatible with the British constitution and the spirit of the Christian religion, he was desirous that it should be clearly understood in what degree he differed from this proposition; for if this doctrine were to be admitted to its full extent, the obvious inference would be, that slavery must not be permitted to exist one moment longer; all discretion
974
975
976
977
978
979
980
981
982
Mr. Brougham
said, he rose to ask a question of the right hon. gentleman. The most important of the instructions containe in the Order in Council, without denying the importance of the others, was that which related to the manumission of slaves; meaning thereby not the lowering of the duties hitherto paid upon the manumission, but the power of compelling the master to sell the slave his freedom upon an appraisement. The instruction which was next in importance, was that which related to the competency of slave evidence—meaning thereby the admissibility
983
Mr. Secretary Canning
said, that St. Vincent's, Tobago, St. Kitt's, Dominica, Antigua, Grenada, and St. Lucia had passed laws permitting the admissibility of negro evidence. With regard to manumission in the sense given to it by the hon. and learned gentleman, only one colony had permitted it. The instruction regarding the non-separation of families had been adopted by five of the colonies, by Tobago, St. Kitt's, Grenada, St. Lucia, and Dominica. In the island of St. Vincent the whip was completely abolished.
Mr. F. Buxton
wished to know whether any thing had been done in Jamaica to secure to the negroes the bequests made to them? He asked this question, because the governor, in a speech to the House of Assembly in December last, had told them, that another session had passed away without any thing having been done for the amelioration of the slave-population of the island. From every thing which had transpired since of the proceedings of the planters, it was not likely that any amelioration had been subsequently agreed to.
Mr. Canning
said, that the power of taking by bequest, a point of no small importance, had been secured to the slave
984
Mr. W. Smith
said, that government ought to give parliament distinctly to understand, that it would be called upon to legislate for the colonies in case the bills which the right hon. gentleman had mentioned were not carried in the next session of the colonial legislatures. In alluding to the parochial resolutions of the towns in Jamaica, the hon. member observed, that he would not charge upon the colonial assembly of that island the vain and idle threats which they contained. It was evident, however, to all who had read the duke of Manchester's speech to that body, that it was animated by a spirit of inveterate hostility to any amelioration in the present slave system. He begged the House to attend to a few paragraphs in it. The duke of Manchester addressed them thus:—"Another year has been allowed to pass away without your having taken any effectual measure for the improvement of the condition of the negroes. It does not become me to anticipate the result of the disappointment of the British government, when it learns that the reiterated representations which it has made to you to do that which your own interests require, no less than the comforts of those who depend upon you, have totally failed. In obeying the instructions which I have received from his majesty's ministers, I earnestly press upon you the necessity of doing something, if not to disarm your enemies, at least to satisfy your friends, and to convince parliament that the urgent representations which the government, in obedience to its directions, have made to you, have not been entirely disregarded." This was not his language, but the language of the duke of Manchester, the governor of the island. Had the House since the arrival of that document, learned that the colonial legislature had shown any symptom of repentance? Not one single syllable had transpired to that effect. On the contrary, in that very debate which terminated in the rejection of the instructions contained in the Order of Council, there was not the slightest symptom of yielding exhibited, though all the speakers must have known the ticklish station in which their cause stood. The contumacy which they then exhibited displayed a spirit which, in his opinion, the Secretary for Foreign Affairs would find it impossible to subdue by kindness. He might depend upon it that it would only
985
Mr. Secretary Peel
rose, he said, for the purpose of cautioning hon. gentlemen against using any expressions which might tend to irritate the feelings of persons who were in any degree opposed to the measure which they advocated. His apology for giving this caution, if any apology were necessary, must be, that the use of language of that description was calculated more than any other thing to throw obstacles in the way of that amelioration of the condition of the slaves which was so earnestly desired. That which appeared to him to be the most prudent course would be to proceed slowly and moderately; and, having ascertained what regulations were likely to attain the object they had in view, to put it plainly to the several colonies, either to adopt or reject the measures which the parliament had suggested, and which he hoped, from the bottom of his heart, they would unanimously agree to act upon. He was equally convinced that it was of the highest importance to avoid all irritating and exasperating language, because that was directly calculated to induce the colonists not to concur in the measures which the House should recommend. He was sure there could be no difference of opinion as to the importance of having the concurrence of those colonists. Any thing that the legislature wished to effect, would be much better performed by willing than by unwilling witnesses. When he said this, he was sure it would not be supposed that he felt any thing like indifference to the amelioration of the condition of the slaves, in as speedy, and in as ample a manner as could be. He could assure the House that it was his warmest wish to see this carried into effect; and he had every reason to believe that it would be better, as well as sooner accomplished by being recommended to the West-India colonists in the language of friendly opinion, and left to their sense of humanity, and of their common interests. It could not be in better than in their own hands, because their experience and knowledge would enable them to ameliorate the condition
986
987
Mr. Scarlett
regretted that the conduct of the Legislative Assembly of Jamaica had been such as to Call for the censure of every moderate person. He was sure that in that assembly there were many individuals who had the strongest feelings In favour of the amelioration of the slaves, and who, notwithstanding the irritation under which they appeared recently to have laboured, were as anxious as any one in this country to accomplish that which he believed was the common wish of mankind. He was free to confess, that there were many topics on which, if the legislative bodies of the various colonies did not act promptly, the parliament must. The one alluded to by the right hon. gentleman was foremost among them. His earliest prejudices were connected with horror at the treatment of the slaves, and his first wish was to see their condition ameliorated. At the same time, it was not improbable that he might differ from many of those who entertained the same desire, as to the shortest and best mode of effecting that object. He thought that, in the first place, the masters ought to be conciliated. In his opinion, any language of irritation, of censure, and, more than all, of a threatening kind, would postpone, perhaps effectually prevent,
988
Mr. Philips
expressed his astonishment that there should be so great a difference as seemed to exist between the West-India proprietors resident in this country, and those who were in the colonies, He had observed with great regret, that a disposition existed in the colonies not to listen to the recommendations of government, and that great apprehensions were expressed as to the injurious effect which they might have upon the property of the persons interested. The same objections and the same reluctance had been manifested when the abolition of the slavetrade was proposed. The ruin of the colonies was predicted then; but the result, instead of justifying the gloomy apprehensions which were entertained, was now a topic of universal congratulation. He had no doubt that the same effect would be produced in the present instance if his majesty's ministers would act the same part. He, for one, begged that they would do so; for he should be sorry to see the subject out of the hands of the government; whose temper and moderation would ensure the protection of the
989
Mr. Wilmot Horton
said, he was anxious to say a few words in furtherance of the remarks which had been made by his right hon. friend. If the subject were unincumbered with other considerations, and were one upon which the House could at once effectually and satisfactorily legislate, he should have wished that the motion of the hon. and learned gentleman had been brought forward without delay. But, if the House entertained a strong opinion that the measures which had been taken by the government were such as were calculated to accomplish the objects proposed by parliament, with respect to the improvement of the condition of the slaves in our West-Indian colonies—he must confess that he should see with deep regret the hon. and learned gentleman opposite prevail, in any thing like an attempt to wrest from the government the management of so momentous an undertaking; in the conduct of which they had thus far succeeded in obtaining the approbation of hon. gentlemen, as it should seem, on all sides. Any body who had looked at all the various details of this great question with that degree of minuteness and accuracy which the facilities of the office which he held, had enabled him to exercise, would strongly feel that it was of the utmost importance to clear away all misconceptions about the subject, in order to arrive at the accomplishment of the object which it was wished to attain. Now, any hon. gentleman who had examined the various protests made in various colonies against the measures of the government, must have at once perceived that those protests invariably turned upon the assumption that the adoption of the views of this House would destroy the now subsisting relations between the slave and the master—would weaken the authority at present exercised by the latter over the former, and thereby deteriorate the property of the master in a fatal degree. In exact proportion as that erroneous conviction might fade away before, not only the power of argument but the more convincing test of experiment, the opposition of the colonists and the colonial legislatures to these measures would give way. And he put it to hon. gentlemen, with reference to the facts of the case, whether such opposition arose out of any abstract love of slavery on the part of the West-India
990
991
992
Mr. Keith Douglas
expressed his perfect concurrence in the course proposed by his majesty's government—a course which, without injuring the interests of any class of the colonists, would eventually promote the prosperity of all.
Mr. Sykes
blamed the government for their backwardness in carrying on the work of improving the slaves. He thought they had been criminally negligent in not insisting that the colonial legislatures should take the necessary steps for ameliorating the condition of the slaves. He referred to some of the acts still in force in some of the colonies, particularly one, in which a slave was declared punishable for riding or driving a horse except at a gentle pace. Could the condition of the slaves be said to be in a course of amelioration when laws such as these were still cherished in the West India Islands? It was now three years since the Resolutions referred to had been agreed to; and yet how little had been since done. He did not want to press the government, but he thought that some time should be speci-
993
Sir F. Blake
said, that the slaves in the West Indies suffered a great deal from the suspense in which they were kept as to the time when their slavery was to cease. He thought that a law ought to be passed, putting an end to it at a certain period.
Mr. T. Wilson
declared himself hostile to any measure which should have for its object to set the slaves free at the expense of their masters. He very much doubted whether such beneficial effects would result from free labour, as some persons anticipated. He begged leave to refer the House to the example of St. Domingo. That island formerly exported considerable quantities of sugar, but now the free negroes were even unable to produce good sugar, and could only make a kind of molasses. He deprecated any interference with private property. The emancipation of the black population was a subject that ought to be touched upon very tenderly. If a compulsory measure were resorted to, the planters ought to receive compensation. The petitioners from London had, he observed, stated their willingness to contribute towards a fund for compensating the planters for the loss of their slaves, in the event of parliament thinking it proper to emancipate them.
Mr. Grossett
said, that the House seemed to pass over entirely the state of slavery in which many of the natives of the East Indies were held; a slavery which was more abject and degrading than that in the West Indies.
Mr. Hume
said, that the only slaves within the Company's territories in India were dancing girls, who were bought when young for the amusement of rich persons. If however any of these slaves ran away from their masters, there was no power by which they could be compelled to return; there was therefore, a great distinction between the state of slavery in the East and in the West ladies. He would appeal to the late chief justice of Bengal (sir H. East) for the correctness of his statement. With respect to the question before the House, there was no man who was more anxious to see slavery in the West-India colonies abolished than himself; but he was not desirous to have that great object effected in a manner which was more likely to prove injurious to the slaves, than to add to
994
995
Sir Hyde East
said, that having been appealed to by the hon. member, he could only state that he could give no information from his personal knowledge of the practice in the interior of India. With respect to those parts of which he had any knowledge, he believed the hon. member was correct. He begged to offer a few observations on the question before the House. He was one of those unfortunate persons alluded to, who possessed property in the West Indies; but he had always thought it his duty to have it managed in the way most advantageous to the slaves. Three years back he concurred in the question for the abolition of slavery, and he had seen no reason since to repent the vote he then gave. He had also concurred in every measure for ameliorating the condition of the slaves; and, on his own estate, had directed every thing to be done with a view to that object. With respect to the last question agitated in the assembly of Jamaica, for admitting the evidence of slaves, he had recommended the adoption of it to his friends there, and though lately rejected, he had no doubt that it would ultimately be successful. In this he had acted from principle, not from any wish to ingratiate himself with the House, or the country. He strongly disapproved of the attempts made to inflame the prejudices of the people. The great object should be to do the most good with the least possible injury. It could not lead to any good effect to hold out threats. It tended only to excite opposition; for all public bodies were naturally riotous when other bodies interfered with what they conceived to be their rights. It was not, in his opinion, advisable to call upon government to enter into any particular pledge upon the subject. It might tend only to irritation, and no measure could be successfully carried into effect without the concurrence of those who were interested in its execution. It was desirable that instruction should be given to the slaves as much as possible, and it gave him pleasure to find, that throughout all the colonies the religious establishments were received with open hands, and without any instance of disapprobation. This was a proof, that when property was not concerned, there was no objection to any thing that could lead to the amelioration of the condition of the slaves. Where a question of property, however, arose, it was very natural for the colonial pro-
996
Mr. Brougham
said, he wished to advert shortly to what had fallen from his hon. and learned friend who spoke last, and also from the hon. member for Montrose. He denied that there was any intention, or any attempt to inflame the feelings on this subject. The petitions—he did not mean to say all, but the greater part—were drawn up with temperance and moderation. Any warmth of feeling that had manifested itself, referred only to that part of the subject on which there was no difference of feeling, either in the House or out of it; he meant the enormous practical abuses that prevailed in the colonies. To the existence of these abuses they had not merely the testimony of travellers, which might be often too highly coloured. The strongest appeals to feeling were made, not in the writings of those who advocated the abolition of colonial slavery, but in the speeches of the colonial legislatures themselves. To the surviving commissioner, the other having unfortunately died, they were indebted for an account, which might be relied upon, of the most appalling details of the infernal system. But was it to be contended, because he (Mr. Brougham) spoke thus of the system, that he was therefore an advocate for precipitate and heedless emancipation. None of the petitions called upon them to pursue so rapid a course. By compulsory manumission he did not mean to intimate that the whole mass of slaves were, at once, and without further preparation, to be set free; but that, if a slave should become possessed of the means of purchasing his freedom, some provision should be made for compelling the owner to grant it, on a fair appraisement. That means should be taken suddenly to emancipate the whole mass, he did not now, nor ever did, maintain. For the slaves themselves it would not be the most advantageous way of proceeding. With respect to the work alluded to by the right hon. gentleman, it was written a quarter of a century back, and if, in the course of that period, he had seen, any reason to alter opinions entertained so far back he would not hesitate to avow it. It was stated in
997
998
Mr. R. Gordon
professed his acquiescence in the views of the right hon. Secretary, as to the colonies. He agreed with him,
999
Mr. W. Bankes
agreed, that the sense of the House ought to be expressed in a tone which would make an impression upon the colonial assemblies. He deprecated menace; but if those assemblies pertinaciously refused to adopt measures for ameliorating the condition of the slaves, the House ought to take the law into its own hands. He did not at present name any time for such a course; but decidedly the day ought not to be a late one. He hoped that the colonists might yet take warning before it was too late.
Mr. F. Buxton,
in reply, said, that satisfied as many gentlemen seemed to be with the declaration of ministers, he could not help being entirely disappointed with it. As for the picture which had been adverted to as circulated by the friends or abolition, he repelled the accusation. They were incapable of degrading themselves by sanctioning such publications; and he himself had never seen the paper in question but once, and that had been in the possession of a West Indian. He was pleased with the observation of an hon. member, which had called up the hon. baronet; because the hon. baronet's testimony settled the question as to the comparative state of the law in the East and West Indies. In the East Indies, if a slave absented himself six months from his master, he had only to go before a judge when taken, who at once liberated him from prison, and sent him to his duty; while, in the West Indies for a similar desertion, he was liable to be hanged or transported. With the general issue, however, of what had passed, he was little satisfied. The delay which was talked of would produce no good. Some trifling concessions, it was possible, the colonists might make; but all the main and most objectionable features of their system, the House might rely upon it, they would most obstinately adhere to.
Ordered to lie on the table, and be printed. The resolution of the 15th of
1000
CORN LAWS.
Mr. Brougham
presented a petition from the operatives of the Staffordshire potteries, praying for an alteration in the Corn-laws. The learned gentleman described the petitioners as an industrious and suffering part of the population, and observed, that though there were many points in the petition in which he agreed with the petitioners, there were others from which he must withhold his concurrence.
Mr. Robertson
complained of the violent language used by the petitioners, and contended that there could not be a greater grievance inflicted on the country than cheap bread. Who were to purchase potteries, if corn became cheap? It was not cheap corn, but good rents, good profits, and well-paid labour that were required to restore the country to prosperity.
Mr. Hume
defended the statements of the petitioners. Cheap corn would cause the country to flourish, since every person who imported corn would be compelled to take our manufactures in return for it.
Mr. Calcraft
referred to his uniform support of the lowest import price, when the question of the Corn-laws was before the House. At the same time he thought that those who fostered the prejudices of the people upon this subject, did not take the best mode of advocating their own interests. It was quite impossible to have a low price of corn with a taxation of 60,000,000
l.
1001
Mr. Bennett
said, that, on the part of the agricultural labourers, he put in a claim. They must be thrown out of employment, if the price of bread should be reduced too low; and, in legislating on the subject, the House was bound to consider equally all classes of the community.
Mr. Philips
was surprised, that the hon. member for Wareham should say, that it would be a serious disadvantage to the country to have cheap corn. In his opinion, nothing was so injurious to commerce as the existing system of Corn-laws; and without commerce the country could not maintain its rank in the scale of nations.
Mr. Calcraft
said, he did not advocate dear corn, but he had given it as his opinion, that it was impossible to have cheap corn with an annual taxation of 60,000,000
l.
Sir T. Lethbridge
thought, that every member would agree with him, that cheap and dear were relative terms. Cheap corn, according to the hon. member for Aberdeen, meant corn at four or five shillings a bushel. Now if the sale of corn at that price would enable the grower to pay the taxes, he should rejoice to let the country have corn at that price; but he thought that government would not be able to carry on its operations if corn were reduced to that level. He objected to the position that, supposing we permitted the importation of corn, those who imported it would take from us the Value in manufactures. The position was contradicted by fact; for the corn that had been imported into this country had always been paid for in coin, the produce of the country.
Lord Milton
observed, that the hon. member for Somersetshire had said, that corn imported into England was always paid for in coin, the produce of the country. Until the hon. baronet had given him that information, he did not know that coin was the produce of England. He was aware that there were some small gold mines in Ireland; but he had never heard, that there were any in England. He had always understood, that gold was imported into England, and therefore if the corn imported into this country were paid for in gold, that gold must first have been purchased by the industry and the manufactures of the country. Another hon. member, who had put for-
1002
Mr. Gooch
observed, that the declaration that the landlord alone was interested in the high price of corn was a declaration which every landlord could positively contradict. He was convinced, that from 50
s.
s.
l.
l.
1003
Ordered to lie on the table.
BRIBERY AND CORRUPTION AT
Lord John Russell
said, that in rising to move for leave to bring in the bill, of which he had given notice, he did not intend to trespass long on the attention of the House. In former days it had been found, that when complaints had been made to the House respecting the manner in which elections had been made, the decision of the House on those complaints had been so much influenced, that it had been found necessary to adopt a different system respecting them. The House had been obliged (and he did not think it much to their credit that they had been so obliged) to impose upon a select, number of their own body the task of deciding, upon their oaths, as to the justice of the complaints made to them. The remedy which had thus been applied, it was generally admitted, had been successful; and so it was as far as regarded the question between party and party, but it was not as successful as far as regarded the interests, of the public; for it was evident that, there might be corrupt elections, and yet that the committee chosen under the law, commonly called the Grenville act, could not apply the remedy which the case demanded. It might happen that there had been corrupt practices in which the petitioner had engaged, and which he was therefore afraid to bring forward, because he durst not stand the test Which in, the committee, would be applied to him. It might also be the desire of the petitioner, who sought to set aside an election on specific grounds, to try another election, when he intended to practise those corrupt practices; which, if they were disclosed to the House, would defeat the return of his opponent. In all these cases, it was manifest, that the pubic had no protection, and that there were no powers vested in the committee to pursue the matter further than the mere decision upon the merits of the case before them. The public, too, had, by the operation of this act, and the appointment of a committee for such purposes, lost a certain degree of security which they had formerly, when those questions were fully and amply discussed by the whole House of Commons; and when it was in the power of all its members to judge of the
1004
1005
1006
Mr. Grenfell
said, he could hot deny that such an address had been issued by him to the place alluded to; but be did not see that there was anything contained in it which would prevent him from opposing, as he had always done, any innovations, founded upon an undefined speculative plan of parliamentary reform.
Mr. Wynn
admitted, that it was the duty of the House to oppose, as far as possible, any practices which might tend to defeat the fairness and purity with which elections ought to be conducted. He objected, however, to the proposition of the noble lord to empower a committee in the manner suggested by the noble lord. The manner of forming such a committee might tend to defeat the very end proposed, because it would only secure, that one member (he who presented the petition) in favour of the petitioner should be on the committee. The expense of the investigation would also form another and
1007
Lord John Russell
said, he intended to propose that the expenses should be paid as in other committees, and that notice of the application should be given to the borough, who would be allowed to oppose by their counsel and agents.
Leave was given to bring in the bill.
JAMAICA SLAVES' TRIALS.
Mr. Denman,
in bringing before the House the motion of which he had given notice on the first day of the present session, begged to premise, that, although the papers upon which that motion was founded, had been ordered on the 1st day of March last year, yet they had not been bid upon the table until a late period of the session, and that he had not had an opportunity of reading them, until some time in the recess. He was well aware how extremely difficult it was to arrest the attention of the House at the present moment of danger and alarm, unless upon some question connected with commercial distress, or the state of the currency; but yet he thought, that the subject to which he was about to implore their consideration, was one in which they could do more good than they had been able to effect in all the protracted discussions
1008
1009
1010
1011
1012
1013
1014
1015
1016
1017
1018
1019
1020
1021
1022
Mr. Wilmot Horton
said, that the hon. and learned gentleman who had just sat down, had concluded his speech with observations which, though they very naturally grew out of the subject, were not, however, necessarily connected with the question more immediately under consideration. Though he did not feel himself called upon to follow the hon. and learned gentleman in these observations, he trusted that neither he nor the House would, on that account, conclude that he felt less interested in the subject, or was less anxious to see the intentions of government and of the House carried into effect, for the amelioration of the condition of slaves, and the final extinction of slavery itself. Though fully prepared to concur with him in all he had said with respect to the great evils inseparable from slavery, and the only effectual cure for those evils, he would not detain the House by entering into these questions. He must, however, guard the House against the impression which might be produced by some observations which had fallen from the hon. and learned gentleman; particularly that in which it was asserted, that the law had been corruptly violated. He would undertake to convince the House, by a plain statement of facts, that the duke of Manchester and the public authorities must have felt convinced, by what had occurred among the slaves in the northern districts of Jamaica, that rebellious intentions existed among them. The proof that such was the impression on the mind of the duke of Manchester, was to be found in the demands he made for additional troops, and his preparations to meet the danger which circumstances induced him to believe threatened the island. It must be recollected that he, as governor, was intrusted with the protection and super intendance of a place peculiarly situated, where the disproportion was so great between the whites and the slave population, and where, of course, the apprehension of any rebellious or insurrectionary movement ought to have inspired the greatest caution. There was every reason to believe that the slaves, in the northern parts of the island, had been influenced in their
1023
1024
Mr. Denman
—That is not the charge.
Mr. Wilmot Horton
proceeded.—The last clause of the act was still more severe and sweeping than any to which he had yet referred; for it provided that, "whereas it is necessary to prevent the secret meetings of slaves, and their administering of oaths at such meetings, by drinking of rum mixed with gunpowder, &c. Be it further enacted, that all persons found guilty of the same shall suffer death or transportation for life, as the court may direct."—As a commentary on what had fallen from the hon. and learned gentleman with respect to the evils inseparable from slavery, he might say that the act,
1025
1026
1027
1028
1029
1030
1031
*
*
1032
Mr. Fowell Buxton
said, that honourable gentlemen on the other side had uniformly deprecated all such discussions as the present, upon the ground that they tended to keep alive all those violent and angry feelings which were said to exist in our colonies, and were described to have their origin in the agitation of the question of slave emancipation in this country. For himself, he was always infavour of those discussions, because he felt that they were productive of great benefit to the important object which he had in view. Not a meeting took place, not a discussion arose in that House on the subject, in which some advantage was not gained, some concession was not made, in favour of the negroes. Even that night, and thus early in the discussion, some important concessions were made by the hon. Secretary for the Colonies. It was not his intention to follow his hon. friend through all the mazes of his argument, but this he had admitted, that no such proceedings would be for a moment allowed in this country; and further, his admissions proved, that where slavery existed, impartial justice could not be obtained. Let the House look at the series of injustice and cruelty which had been perpetrated within the last three years. First came the trial, he might call it the murder of Mr. Smith, the Missionary; then followed the massacre, he could use no better term, of the negroes at Demerara, merely because they wished to know what was their real situation; close upon this followed the persecution of the Missionary Shrewsbury; then came the deportation of two free natives from Jamaica; next, the Berbice Papers; and last of all the proceedings at Jamaica, which occupied their attention that night. Now, he would undertake to show, from the evidence before them, that there was no plot at St. Mary's, St. James's, or St. George's. With respect to the proceedings at St. George's, there were three witnesses, Mack, Corberand, and Hypolite. One stated that the former was a great liar; his young master said, he would not believe him, and his old master said, he had a bad opinion of him. He would undertake to shew that the evidence of Corberand was altogether false and con-
1033
1034
1035
1036
The Attorney-General
said, that the boy had not been sworn in either case, and this was the great objection to the course of proceeding.
Mr. F. Buxton
said, he was not complaining of the conduct of any individual, but of the whole system, which was an abominable one; an illustration of which he was giving in this case. That boy William, who was not sworn, contradicted himself; and declared at one time, that persons had been present at meetings, whom at other times he did not mention. The second witness in this same case, a man named Ned, was a thief and an accomplice. Now, let the House consider the nature of this man's evidence. He stated that he was going along the high-road, and there he saw a number of negroes publicly plotting a conspiracy. They were doing this openly, and in a place where any person passing might over-hear them. He walked into the midst of the conspirators, and no objection was made to his presence; he offered them his counsel, they accepted it, and altered the whole of their plans at his suggestion. This was the whole of the direct proof against them, and even this was contradictory to that of the boy. The boy swore that there was a large concourse of negroes; the man swore that there was only six persons present. The boy said that there were plenty of women, the man asserted there were none. There were many other contradictions equally glaring, in the testimony of these two witnesses. There was no collateral evidence given, nor was there any corroborative evidence, save the testimony of Mr. Gordon, who stated, that, on the night in question, he heard a gun fired; that he arose from his bed and walked about his room for two hours; that he looked out of his window to see what was the matter; that he saw two negroes walking under his window with white frocks on (no doubt the garb of rebellion); that he heard one of them say "It won't do;" but what "would not
1037
1038
The Attorney General
said, that in rising to offer a few observations upon the
1039
1040
1041
1042
1043
1044
Dr. Lushington
said, that feeling so deep an interest as he did in every question connected with the administration of justice in the colonies, he trusted the House would indulge him while he expressed his sentiments upon the proceedings which were the subject of the present discussion.
1045
1046
1047
l.
1048
1049
1050
1051
1052
The Solicitor-General
said, he perfectly concurred in all the sentiments expressed by his hon. and learned friend in his generous abhorrence of slavery, and in his eloquent denunciation of the abuses of slavery. As some difference, however, must still prevail between their opinions, he would take the liberty of offering a few words to the attention of the House, as to the points upon which he differed from his hon. and learned friend; and a few words as to the points upon which they were agreed. If the resolution of his hon. and learned friend had only for its object a prospective improvement in the mode of trial which obtained in the colonies, he might have yielded his assent to it; for the amended resolution of his hon. friend near him was to that very effect. But, when his hon. and learned friend went beyond that line, he proposed something, to which he at least could not give his concurrence. Now, the fact was, that the hon. and learned member's proposition consisted of two parts. That hon. and learned member, not only required that the negro should be equalised, in point of the mode of trial, with the free white man; but he asserted, in pretty direct terms, the gross malversation of all those who had been concerned in the late trials. With that charge it was impossible for him to agree. He would call the attention of the House to one of the prominent parts of the hon. and learned member's resolution. It asserted, that we "contemplated, with sorrow, the perversion of law, and the violation of justice, displayed in the late trials." Now, the House could not adopt that resolution, without being prepared to state, almost in so many words, that the judge who had presided, the jury who had tried and convicted, and the duke of Manchester, who had suffered the law to take
1053
1054
1055
1056
1057
Mr. W. Smith
congratulated the House on the progress of more liberal views and sentiments with respect to the extinction of negro1 slavery, and on the active share which his majesty's ministers were taking in the amelioration of the condition of that portion of the subjects of the empire. In what a new situation were the colonists and inhabitants placed by the concession's made that night! He would not weaken the eloquence of his hon. friends by going over the points of evidence on which they had touched. Her rejoiced to hear the expression of the Solicitor-general, who called the West-India system, an accursed system.
The Solicitor-General
said, it was slavery that he had spoken of as an accursed system. He had not applied the phrase to any portion of the subject now under consideration.
Mr. W. Smith
said, he understood, then, that the hon. and learned gentleman did admit the system of slavery to be an accursed system; and he had defended the
1058
1059
Sir Robert Wilson
said, that his hon. and learned friend was entitled to the thanks of the House for bringing forward the subject of West-India abuses. The House of Commons was the legitimate sanctuary where justice should be found; and he hoped that the appeal which had that night been made on behalf of those who were unable to state their wrongs, would not be made in vain. The hon. and learned gentlemen opposite called upon the House not to support the proposition, because it would amount to a vote of censure upon the government of the colony, and upon all those connected with the proceedings which formed the subject of complaint, which was the very object which he wished to see effected. A vote of censure should not only be passed on the governor, but on the judge and the jury, by whose verdict the lives of our fellow-men were taken away. That act
1060
Mr. Goulburn
said, he had not intended to have made any observations on the subject now under discussion, but finding that no one connected with the colonies had risen to express an opinion on the subject, and having had the misfortune to succeed to a property in those colonies, he felt it due to himself, to the colonists, and to the House, not to allow that opportunity to pass, of stating that there were persons connected with the colonies, who felt as warmly concerning all these transactions as any of the hon. members on the other side of the House. It was due to the colonists to state, that the sentiments of many of them were perfectly in unison with those of the gentlemen who reprobated these proceedings. He found it the more necessary to make this declaration, because he intended to vote for the amendment of his hon. friend near him, though in most of what had been
1061
Mr. Brougham
said, he differed widely from the right hon. gentleman who had just sat down, in his view of the present question, and in his estimate of the nature
1062
1063
1064
1065
1066
Mr. Secretary Canning
said, that if the hon. and learned gentleman, who had just sat down, could not suffer this motion to pass without recording his abhorrence of the system which had led to it, neither could he (Mr. Canning) consent to vote for the amendment which, by preference, he would place upon the hon. and learned mover's resolutions, without at the same time recording, that it was not from yielding to him in any one of the general sentiments of indignation which he had used respecting the whole colour of this transaction that he had come to a different conclusion, but that on grounds of a more limited nature he preferred giving his concurrence to the amendment rather than the original motion. Indeed, he thought the hon. and learned gentleman who spoke last had himself admitted—at least to that extent went the principles which he had laid down—that to the original resolutions he could not grant an undivided concurrence [no, no]. Such was certainly the tendency of the hon. and learned gentleman's argument; for he had declared
1067
1068
1069
1070
1071
Mr. Denman
claimed the indulgence of the House while he briefly replied to some of the observations of the hon. gentlemen opposite. In the first place, he must deny that he had withheld from them any knowledge of his particular motion. On the contrary, more than a fortnight ago, he had communicated its import fully. Still, he felt so strong a desire that their decision should go forth unanimously, that he begged to assure the right hon. gentleman, no partiality to any particular, phraseology of his own would prevent the adoption of his amendment, could he consent with any sense of justice, to compromise the imperative duty which that House owed to the country, in maintaining and guarding the due administration of justice. He had early in the evening regretted his inability to do justice to this subject, and had anticipated that his defects would be abundantly repaired by his hon. and learned, friends who followed him. The hon. gentlemen opposite had also come to his aid, so as greatly to narrow the point in contention. Upon all the strong points they were clearly agreed, and were now only disputing, upon a quibbling fallacy. It was broadly stated, that the lamentable proceedings which he had detailed were by the laws of Jamaica justified. He would reply, no, and he spoke from the Jamaica code, which, thought the courtesy of the Colonial Secretary, he held in his hand. In what part of this code were they bound to bring these, parties to trial within two days? Why try them without the assistance of counsel, without having the opportunity of calling, a single witness? In what page was it prescribed, that eight men should be tried and convicted before one and the same jury? Where was it enjoined that
1072
1073
1074
The House divided on Mr. Denman's motion; Ayes 63; Noes 103; Majority against the motion 40.
List of the Minority
Acland, sir T.
Ord, W.
Allen, J. H.
Palmer, C. F.
Althorp, viscount.
Pares, T.
Attwood, M.
Pelham, J. C.
Benett, J.
Philips, G.
Birch, J.
Philips, G. S.
Brougham, H.
Poyntz, W. S.
Burdett, sir F.
Rice, T. S.
Butterworth, J.
Robarts, A.
Buxton, T. F.
Robinson, sir G.
Calcraft, J.
Rumbold, C.
Calthorp, hon. F.
Russell, lord W.
Cavendish, C.
Sebright, sir J.
Cavendish, H.
Smith, J.
Colborne, N. R.
Smith, W.
Cole, sir C.
Sykes, D.
Corbett, P.
Taylor, M. A.
Crompton, S.
Tierney, rt. hon. G.
Davies, T. H.
Tomes, J.
Duncannon, viscount
Tremayne, J. H.
Evans, W.
Tulk, C. A.
Fergusson, sir R. C.
Vivian, sir R.
Gaskell, B.
Wall, C. B.
Guise, sir B. W.
Webb, E.
Heathcote, G. J.
Whitbread, S.
Heron, sir R.
Whitmore, W. W.
Hobhouse, J. C.
Williams, J.
Honywood, W.
Wilson, sir R.
Kemp, T. R.
Wilson, W. W.
Leycester, R.
Wood, M.
Lushington, Dr.
Wyvill, M.
Marjoribanks, S.
Martin, J.
TELLERS.
Milton, viscount
Denman, T.
Newman, R. W.
Nugent, lord.
1075
After the division, Mr. Brougham, referring to the course and temper of the discussion, suggested the propriety of cutting off the latter part of the amendment relative to the inexpediency of impeaching the verdict of the court, being all that part which followed the words "the year 1823." Mr. Canning assented to the suggestion, and it was agreed nem. con. to alter the amendment accordingly.
HOUSE OF LORDS.
Friday, March 3, 1826.
CORN LAWS.
Lord King
rose to present a petition against the most gigantic of all jobs. It came from the working community of Manchester and its neighbourhood, and was signed by 40,000 persons, and would have been signed by 20,000 more, had it not been for the delay and expense of collecting them. He thought that the character of that House would depend on the result of their lordships' determination respecting the Corn-laws. In coming to this question, their lordships ought to recollect, that the public were very good judges, not only of the value of their decisions, but of the motives of them also. The petitioners stated, that the Corn-laws were made for the benefit of the landlords; but in that House it was always argued, that those laws were established for the benefit of the public; and those who were most forward in maintaining this doctrine, Were among the persons who contended for unlimited trade in every other respect. The people, however, were now too well informed on the subject, and their lordships must expect to draw very largely on public credulity, if they thought they could make it be believed that those laws were for any body's benefit but the landowners. Some noble lords, however, objected very much to "little harangues" on corn, and wished to have nothing said on the subject, except in a real debate, in which they might sport all the variety of their ingenuity. These great orators were like those sportsmen who wished to abstain from shooting occasionally, in order to have he great shooting day. Others, on the contrary, chose to shoot every day in the year, and he believed that, in the end, they killed more than those who reserved themselves for one great annual battle. When the great debate day did come, he had no doubt that some noble lords would
1076
Ordered to lie on the table.
HOUSE OF COMMONS.
Friday, March 3, 1826.
SLAVERY IN THE COLONIES.
Mr. Brougham
rose for the purpose of asking the hon. Secretary for the Colonies, whether any act of the legislature of St. Vincent's on the subject of improving the condition of the slaves, had recently arrived in this country, and whether it was of that character which would cause its being allowed by the government here? He was anxious that information should be given to the House on the subject of any recent advices received of the proceedings of the colonial legislatures; for, as far as he had been able to ascertain, the statement of the right hon. Secretary, for Foreign Affairs as to the course which some of those legislatures had adopted, was not borne out by the facts that had transpired in this country.
Mr. Wilmot Horton
said, that a bill had been received in this country which had been introduced in the colonial assembly of St. Vincent's. It had been read a second time, and ordered to be committed; and he supposed that ere now it had been passed into a law. This and all the other acts which had emanated from the colonial legislatures would be laid before the House. His right hon. friend had not stated, that in the acts of any of the colonies the whole of the points mentioned in the Orders in Council had been embraced. Many of them, had, however, been introduced.
Mr. Brougham
said, he had no wish to impute any Intentional misstatement on the subject. He was aware that the accounts that had been received, were as yet imperfect; but undoubtedly there did ap-
1077
1078
1079
1080
Mr. Wilmot Horton
said, he was perfectly ready to agree to the proposition of the hon. and learned member. Nay, he would do more. He would lay upon the table a tabular statement of the different acts passed by the colonial legislatures, with their different clauses, so that the whole question might at one view be brought under the consideration of the House. It would be some time before this could be done, owing partly, to the great increase of business in the colonial department, arising out of the recent discussions respecting the slave question, and partly to the illness of the colonial counsel, which had been brought on by the severe application to the duties of his office. He must take that opportunity of stating, that the hon. member for Aberdeen, by his economy, had been chiefly instrumental in preventing the public departments from being manned in a way necessary for the efficient discharge of their duty. It would be much better, if the present system were not altered, for the House to pass a resolution to absolve the public departments from all responsibility. The colonial counsel had been employed in his office during the whole of last year, not less than ten hours a day. That was too much for any man. Unless the House would furnish him with assistance, the public business must, in a case of illness, stand still. He pledged himself, when the colonial estimates should be brought forward, to show that it was impossible that the public business could be transacted without an augmented establishment. With respect to Demerara, the court of policy of that colony deserved great praise for the readiness with which they had adopted the recommendations of the Order in Council. The hon. and learned member was mistaken when he stated, that the slaves in none of the colonies were permitted to cultivate staple commodities. They had that privilege
1081
Mr. Hume
said, that though it was paying the hon. Secretary no compliment, he must declare that he had not been listening to his speech until he had roused him by accusing him of impeding the public service. He really had a right to expect a very different treatment from the hon. Secretary; for last year he had allowed an increase of 1,700
l.
Mr. Wilmot Horton
doubted whether the gentlemen in that House who belonged to the profession of the law would accede to the doctrine which the hon. member seemed desirous to establish; namely, that a counsel would allow his private feelings to impede the performance of his public duty. He, in his conscience, believed what he had heard Mr. Stephen himself state, that, on any subject connected with the West-Indian interests, he had never had any communication, direct or indirect, with his father. There was no man to whom, if he wished for advice or information on subjects of difficulty connected with the West Indies, he would sooner apply than Mr. Stephen. The hon. member seemed to labour under a complete mistake as to the duties of Mr. Stephen's office. He was merely an executive officer, and could originate nothing. He might state as a proof that there was no sort of understanding between the father and son, that the former had published a pamphlet in which he called the Order in Council, which was drawn up by his son, a "parcel of trash." He was glad that he had been presented
1082
Mr. F. Buxton
felt it necessary to say, that Mr. Stephen never made any communications to him. On the contrary, he generally found that gentleman so very reserved, that he preferred transacting business with the hon. secretary.
Mr. Brougham
then moved, for the "titles of acts passed by the legislatures of the slave colonies since 15th May, 1823, and containing any provisions for promoting the religious instruction of the slaves, or the better observance of the Sabbath; distinguishing the names of the colonies, the dates of the acts, the numbers of the sections in which such provisions are contained, and specifying whether the same acts had been allowed or disallowed by, or are now under the consideration of, the king in council"—Ordered.
ARMY ESTIMATES.
On the order of the day for going into a committee of supply.
Colonel Davies
said, that, in opposing the motion for the Speaker leaving the chair, he could assure the House, he was far from being actuated by any spirit of factious opposition. Thus much he wished at the outset to claim for himself and for his party, who had always been disposed to support a system of liberal policy. He had shown that his own disposition was not unfavourable to such a system, when he, last year, withdrew his opposition to the estimates of the noble lord. But the circumstances of the country had been greatly altered since that period, and in the present crisis, when the nation was labouring under the pressure of general distress, it was the duty of every member, to see that the burthens imposed upon his constituents were as light as possible. Besides this consideration, there were objections to the condition of the army as constituted at present, which did not apply to it, when the noble lord came down with his propositions last year. If the motion with which he intended to conclude, should be agreed to, which was for a select committee to inquire into the military expenditure of the country, he had no objection to vote for a committee of supply, to grant such a sum as would
1083
1084
Lord Palmerton
said he would not follow the hon. gentleman through the various statements into which he had entered. He did not think he had assigned any sufficient reason for the appointment of a select committee. The only ground stated for the motion was, that the committee might inquire into the military expenditure. Now, the usual course was, to discuss the various items in a committee of the whole House, when there was a sufficient opportunity of fully considering every point. He must therefore oppose the amendment, and the hon. member must forgive him for not replying at present to his observations.
Lord Palmerston
said, he felt convinced that all who had heard the motion of the hon. member for Worcester would have supposed, that the estimates of the army to be proposed to the House, contained some remarkable increase over those which had been voted in the preceding years. The fact, however, was, that the estimates which he was about to submit to the committee, were the same as those of the last year, with the addition only of three hundred men, constituting three companies, for the service of the colony of Newfoundland, and to be paid for by the inhabitants of that settlement. The total increase upon the estimates was only 126,586
l.
s.
d.
l.
l.
l.
d.
l.
s.
d.
l.
s.
d.
l.
l.
1085
l.
s.
d.
l.
s.
d.
l.
s.
d.
l.
l.
s.
d.
s.
1086
l.
s.
d.
l.
l.
s.
d.
l.
l.
l.
l.
d.
l.
d.
l.
d.
l.
l.
l.
s.
d.
l.
s.
d.
1087
l.
s.
d.
l.
s.
l.
s.
d.
1088
1089
Lord Milton
said, that he did not feel himself placed in the situation of the hon. colonel behind him, with respect to the army estimates of this year; for last year he had voted against the estimates, and was in a minority of eight upon that occasion. Therefore his noble friend over the way could not retort upon him that he was pledged to the present estimates because of his vote of last year. The objections which he entertained against the noble lord's resolutions were of a nature to prevent him from entering into detail —he objected to them altogether as founded upon an erroneous view of the interests of the country; and he was the more confirmed in that opinion by the latter part of the speech of the noble lord, in which he had endeavoured to divert the attention of the House from looking back to the principles of policy by which, in former times, the country had been regulated. He saw clearly from that speech, that the military spirit of the government—or, more properly speaking, its disposition for keeping up a large military establishment—was far from being so subdued as, for the safety and happiness of the country, it ought to be. The latter part of the noble lord's Speech showed clearly that, in the opinion of the higher authorities of this country, our security depended upon the maintenance of a large military force. Now, he was quite unconvinced that there was the least necessity for any larger establishment than the country, in former years, had been in the habit of maintaining. If our colonies had increased in one part of the world, in another part they had been diminished; because, within the last fifty years, we had lost the whole of North America? His majesty's ministers, in bringing forward the estimates, were not aware of the situation in which they placed the country. The necessary effect of such a large expenditure must be, to reduce the pecuniary resources of the country. And, if they still persisted in maintaining a large military establishment let them recollect what they said in 1816. In that year, 100,000
l.
1090
l.
l.
s.
s.
l.
1091
Mr. Hume
said, that the present situation of the country required that the most serious attention of parliament should be directed to the estimates for this year. They were now called upon to vote the first of those estimates, and the question to be considered was—was the country in a situation to pay that sum? It was very well for the noble Secretary at War to say that we were called upon to make no great increase upon the estimates of last year. But, we had gone on increasing our army expenditure, so gradually, but certainly, from year to year, that even the noble lord himself did not appear sensible of the enormous increase this year, as compared with former years. But the House ought to check this ruinous course of expenditure. Our army, navy, ordnance, and civil estimates, ought to be revised; and, in his view of the case, the whole might be reduced one half. If the House would consider for a moment to what ruinous results this enormous expenditure must lead, those who were called the representatives of the people would not vote for such large establishments as were now called for by ministers. Before they voted these estimates, they ought seriously to consider how much was absolutely necessary to carry on the establishments of the country; and he was aware that he should be charged with arrogance for endeavouring to point out
1092
1093
l.
l.
l.
1094
l.
l.
l.
1095
l.
1096
1097
l.
1098
l.
l.
l.
l.
1099
l.
l.
1100
1101
Lord Palmerston
said, that if the committee concurred in the amendment, the lion, gentleman would not be at all nearer the attainment of his object, because it went only to the adoption of the recommendation of the committee of Finance of 1817, to approximate as nearly to the estimates of 1792, as might be "consistent with our more extended possessions, and the augmented rates of the various fixed disbursements." The whole question therefore was, whether there had been such an approximation, and he was prepared to contend, that the resolutions he had to propose were framed with every due regard to economy, and adapted to the existing circumstances of the country. In considering this point the fair criterion to judge by was not the mere point which had been so much relied on by the hon. member; namely, that the country was now, as in 1792, in a state of profound peace. They must, in coming to a decision, look to the present circumstances of the country; and he had contended, that, considering those circumstances, the existing military establishment was not too great. If that argument were of any force—if his reasoning were
1102
l.
l.
1103
1104
1105
l.
l.
l.
Mr. Robertson
adverted to the inconsistency of the hon. member for Aberdeen, in calling for low prices at one time, and attributing distress to them at another. He had generally voted with ministers upon this subject: but he really thought they did not know what they were about. They were opening our markets to a competition with foreign nations whose labourers lived at less expense, and could Work cheaper than our own; and they were, at the same time, raising the standard of the currency. If they persevered, fewer commodities would be consumed,
1106
Mr. Hume
said, he would have been satisfied with the application of the new forces to the relief of foreign garrisons, but his complaint still was, that they were chiefly kept at home. If government were sincere, the increase would only have been made in available corps. But, how stood the fact? The Life-guards were 785 men in 1792; they were now 1,305. The increase of the other regiments of cavalry was from 3,037 to 7,014. Were these additional cavalry wanted for the garrisons abroad? The guards had been increased from 3,572 to 5,726. They were not wanted to increase the garrisons abroad? Why not reduce 8,000 of this the most expensive class in the service, when they might keep 16,000 infantry for less money? Each cavalryman cost 74
l.
l.
l.
l.
l.
Lord Palmerston
asserted that the 13,000
1107
l.
l.
The Committee divided: for Mr. Hume's amendment 45. Against it 144.
List of the Minority.
Allen, J. H.
Milton, viscount
Althorp, viscount
Monck, J. B.
Bernal, R.
Newman, R. W.
Benett, J.
Ord, W.
Birch, J.
Palmer, C. F.
Blake, sir F.
Pares, T.
Brougham, H.
Pelham, J. C.
Bright, H.
Philips, G. R.
Burdett, sir F.
Powlett, hon. W.
Davies, T. H.
Robarts, A.
Denman, T.
Robarts, S.
Duncannon, viscount
Robertson, A.
Evans, W.
Robinson, sir G.
Ellice, Ed.
Russell, lord J.
Griffiths, J. W.
Smith, W.
Guise, sir W.
Tierney, rt. hon G.
Heron, sir R.
Tremayne, S. H.
Hobhouse, J. C.
Williams, J.
Honeywood, W.
Wilson, sir R.
Howard, H.
Wood, M.
Knight, Robert
Wyvill, M.
Lamb, hon. G.
TELLER.
Marjoribanks, S.
Martin, J.
Hume, Joseph
On the resolution, "That 156,271
l.
Mr. Hume
objected to an additional grant for the yeomanry and volunteer establishment. Indeed, he did not see the least necessity for a country enjoying a profound peace to be burthened with a yeomanry establishment, and he should propose its being abolished altogether.
Lord Althorp
said, he thought the volunteer corps a very useless force, and that not a single shilling, in the present state of the country, ought to be expended on them more than last year. He belonged to a yeomanry corps which drew no pay; 6ut if they remained embodied, and were called out on permanent duty, it was necessary to pay them. He would therefore move "That 147,000
l.
l.
Mr. Secretary Peel
said, that, as he understood the hon. member for Montrose, his proposition was, that the volunteer establishment should be abolished. He
1108
1109
s.
s.
Sir R. Heron
considered every shilling that went to the support of volunteer cavalry thrown away. What were these troops fit for? In cases of internal disturbances they were not fit persons to quell riot and disorder. Their local connexion with the county made them parties in every disturbance, and they were therefore unfitted to interpose between conflicting parties. The disturbances at Manchester afforded a strong instance of this. It was otherwise with the regular army.
Lord J. Russell
objected to the existence of a volunteer establishment, for he believed, in most instances, they were kept up for political purposes, and to gratify the party feelings of those by whom they were established. Constituted as volunteer corps were, they produced any thing but concord in the country; and he would much rather see the military called out in aid of the civil authorities, in case of necessity, than have resort to the interference of men who, from local feelings and connexions, were more likely to act from passion than otherwise. He therefore objected to any additional allowance, and moved, as an amendment, that 25,000
l.
Sir R. Fergusson
seconded the motion of his noble friend. The yeomanry corps consisted of few masters and many servants, and were not that independent sort of yeomanry, paying their own expenses which he should like to see in the country. The regular troops were better in cases of disturbances than the yeomanry. He would like to see our cavalry plain English troops. They were the best cavalry in Europe; and he did not see any reason for dressing them out in mustachios, to the annoyance of the men themselves, and to the disgust of those who beheld them. He wished to see them plainly dressed, without any of the fopperies of foreign troops.
Mr. Benett
conceived, that it was impossible for a yeoman to pay his expenses out of 5
s.
s.
1110
Col. Johnson
denied the utility of the yeomanry cavalry, and opposed the grant altogether.
Mr. Davenport
said, that without the yeomanry the peace of the county which he represented could not have been preserved. He believed, almost every manufacturing establishment in it would have been destroyed.
Mr. Wynn
defended the present constitution of the yeomanry cavalry. Their utility in preserving the public peace was to be estimated, not so much by the riots they had suppressed, as by those they had prevented. Even in the conduct of the Manchester yeomanry, in 1816, he had always been of opinion, that there were many points perfectly defensible.
Lord Althorp
approved of the yeomanry system, not as a political engine, but as a means of bringing the gentry and farmers together. But he objected to the practice of keeping them out on permanent duty.
Sir H. Vivian
bore testimony to the good discipline and general efficiency of the yeomanry cavalry; but it was desirable that they should be inspected by cavalry officers.
Mr. Brougham
said, that the House had voted as large a standing army for the present year of tranquillity, as it did immediately after the peace, when Europe was in the most unsettled condition. Under these circumstances, he considered the proposed vote for the yeomanry wholly unnecessary.
Mr. Hobhouse
gave notice, that he would, on Monday, when the report should be brought up, propose the reduction of the estimate to some definite number. On referring to the army estimates for 1820, he found that those for the present year were quite as burthensome to the nation, in every respect.
Mr. Gooch
eulogized the yeomanry, as the constitutional force of the country.
1111
Mr. Bernal
was of opinion, that while the military establishment was continued on its present scale, the yeomanry force was unnecessary.
Mr. Evans
was of opinion, that if the magistracy of the country were to do their duty with proper vigilance and alacrity, there would be no occasion for the description of force under consideration.
Sir F. Burdett
said, he wished to protect himself against being supposed to participate in the views of his hon. friends, who thought that the interference of a Standing army with the civil power was preferable, in a constitutional point of view, to that of a yeomanry force. He perfectly agreed with those who considered the yeomanry as the constitutional force of the country; and notwithstanding what had been said of their inefficiency, he had observed them in the two counties with which he was best acquainted, Wiltshire and Berkshire, to be both, as to appearance and discipline, a highly respectable and useful force. In every point of view they did credit to the country. He objected, however, to the custom of taking them out on permanent duty, as it was called, because that practice had a direct tendency to destroy their constitutional character, and convert them into a body of a very different nature. The farmer could not afford to leave his home for seven or eight days, and he therefore was obliged to send a servant as his subtitute. In this way a sort of armed police might be raised; but, unless the farmers themselves filled the ranks, it would be no real yeomanry force. Reference had been made to the conduct of the Manchester yeomanry, in 1816, but that corps was not, properly speaking, a true yeomanry force, but a body of armed partisans. They had, under peculiar circumstances of public excitement, been brought into action with exasperated feelings, against an unarmed multitude. But that transaction was in no degree discreditable to the genuine yeomanry. He confessed, that no part of the expense of our military establishment was, in his opinion, so little objectionable, as the grant under discussion. But he repeated, that if the object was to preserve the real character of this description of force, the permanent duty ought not to extend beyond three or four days, at the furthest. It was highly desirable, no doubt, to reduce the military charges of the country; but he was not disposed, therefore, to diminish the
1112
Mr. Secretary Peel
stated, in explanation, that the permanent duty was not imposed upon the yeomanry as an obligation on each particular corps, to be performed at a period fixed by government. The course pursued was, to leave each corps to choose its own time, when it asked for permission to go out for a certain number of days.
Lord Milton
was of opinion, that the yeomanry had become a very different force from what they were originally intended to be, and were applied to very different purposes.
Lord John Russell
said, that after what had passed, he should not divide the committee.
The amendments were then negatived, and the original Resolution agreed to.
HOUSE OF COMMONS.
Monday, March 6, 1826.
GOLD COIN IN EXCHANGE FOR NOTES
Mr. Hume
presented a Petition from William Martin, grocer, of Seven Oaks in Kent, complaining of the conduct of a Country Banker. The petitioner stated, that, a short time ago, he carried eighteen one pound, and two five pound notes, of the issue of the Bank in Seven Oaks, to the banking house of Beeching and Sons, and demanded payment. Instead, however, of receiving that payment in gold the banker handed him Bank of England notes; and, upon his complaining that he ought to be paid in gold, absolutely refused to do so. The petitioner then went to a justice of the peace, and requested him to summon the banker, and require him to make the payment in gold, or state the reasons for his refusal; but the magistrate declared he had no power to interfere. On the next day, the banker sent twenty-eight sovereigns to the petitioner's house, in payment of the said notes. Mr. Hume said, he had ascertained the truth of this statement, which the banker did not deny, but said it was an ill-natured proceeding on the part of the petitioner. This, however, had nothing to do with the question. The House ought to say whether his majesty's subjects were to be placed in a situation by the country bankers, in which they could not have the local notes convertible into gold when they pleased.
1113
Mr. Baring
said, that if it were intended to continue the small notes of country bankers, something might be said to the petition; but as they were to be called in, he thought any measure upon the subject unnecessary.
Sir F. Burdett
said, that in this case it was not pretended by the petitioner that he had sustained any injury, but it was brought forward merely to try the question as to the bankers right to refuse gold in payment of his own notes, when demanded. He did not see the expediency of pressing an immediate return to a gold currency. To meddle at all with the currency was not an advisable measure at that moment; and the manner in which it would affect all classes of society, had not been sufficiently considered.
The Chancellor of the Exchequer
said, it was quite impossible for the most active legislation to meet every possible case. The petitioner appeared to him to have, in reality, nothing to complain of. On presenting his notes at the banker's he was offered Bank of England notes, which were convertible in a moment into gold, and on the following day he was sent the gold itself. Now, he did not think that any summary process required to be introduced by the hon. member for Montrose would have given Martin the power of procuring the money quicker than within twenty-four hours after his demand.
Mr. W. Smith
said, that as the man gained all he required, it was evident his only object was to make a case for presenting a petition.
Ordered to lie on the table.
CORN LAWS.
Mr. Hume
presented a Petition from the weavers of Pollock-shaws, praying for an alteration of the Corn-laws. The hon. member observed, that while the wages of weavers were 5
s.
1114
Mr. Benett
said, that if it was not for the Corn-laws, he would be glad to know how the nation could pay the interest of the debt, the poor-laws, the taxes, or any other of the great public burthens. If no laws protected the grower of corn, he apprehended they would find some difficulty in finding a market for their manufactures. The agricultural interest formed the bank upon which they drew for every burthen imposed upon the people. If they got rid of those laws which supported that class, they might get, rid, at the same time, of the national debt, and every other tax which pressed upon the country.
Sir R. Wilson
, in presenting a petition from the ladies shoemakers of Westminster, against the Corn laws, observed, that he liked to hear the subject discussed in that House, because these discussions were a means both of disseminating information and removing prejudice. At the same time, he considered all language of asperity or reproach towards the landlords, as highly reprehensible; for he believed the landlords of England to be as generous and benevolent a class of men as any other in the kingdom. There were some of them who considered, however, any attempt to approach the Corn-laws, as almost equal to the opening of Pandora's box, from the ills which were to be spread by that event over the country. The hon. member for Wiltshire considered any interference with the Corn-laws as likely to put an end to all payments of the national debt, or the other obligations of the country. He had no such apprehensions; but when he saw corn as high as it was during the war, and the wages of manufacturers, which were then 20
s.
s.
s.
s.
1115
Mr. Calcraft
the petition was from the boot and shoemakers. Now, of all those, who approached that House with a petition upon the subject, he considered them perhaps the least entitled to complain. It was notorious that a gentleman could not purchase a pair of boots and spurs under the price which he procured for a quarter of his best wheat. As long as the manufacturers continued to demand such prices, their profits must be as large or larger then the corn-grower's; and they could therefore afford to pay the price. They could not have corn cheap, and the other articles of life relatively dear. His hon. friend had talked of bread as being very high in price; there was no analogy between the price of bread and corn. Whether it, was the miller or the baker, he knew not; but the price of corn was very different from the price of bread. He would fee willing to apply the principles of free trade to corn, as well as to every other, article; but in the present sophisticated of the country, they could only approach to the principles of that trade.
Sir M. W. Ridley
wished to know who were those lucky landlords from whose rent-rolls their rents had not been reduced. He could assure the petitioners, that if the Promissory-Note bill passed, it would not be long before the price of corn was as low as they could wish; and then they would find wages decrease also. He was sorry to see that gentlemen could not present petitions without, by a sort of side-wind, throwing out unjust and illiberal imputations upon the landlords.
Colonel Davies
said, that if the country gentlemen would oppose the enormous estimates which were presented to the House take place, which would render the bur-
1116
Mr. N. Calvert
was desirous that the Corn-laws should be revised, but objected to any alteration which would deprive the landed proprietor of a fair remuneration.
Sir E. Knatchbull
most positively denied the assertion, that rents had not been reduced. He also wished to state that the price of corn, instead of being 60
s.
s.
Mr. T. Wilson
was disposed to extend every fair protection to the agricultural interest; but he must say, that the manufacturing and mercantile interests, from the changes which had been introduced into our commercial policy, had some claims upon the agricultural interests.
Sir F. Burdett
said, he thought that much error and much prejudice prevailed upon the subject on which a discussion had now arisen. Perhaps it would be better that such a discussion should take place when the question was brought fairly before the House, than to have it introduced in the present irregular way, on the presentation of a petition, as many hon. gentlemen representing the landed interest, whose opinions were upon this subject the most important, might feel it irksome, without some previous intimation, to deliver their sentiments. This was a natural feeling for those to entertain who were not in the habit of frequently expressing their opinions in that House. Much delusion, in his opinion, prevailed upon this subject, and he was, therefore, desirous that it should come fully and fairly before the House, with a view of dissipating that delusion. As to the particular distress of shoemakers, or of any other class of persons, it was a thing certainly to be regretted that distress existed amongst them; but that distress, whatever they might think, was quite disconnected with the present question. The distressed situation of the labouring classes was governed by principles totally distinct from those upon which the question of the Corn-laws de-pended. The working classes laboured
1117
1118
1119
Ordered to lie on the table.
ARMY ESTIMATES.
The House having again resolved itself into a committee of supply, Lord
Palmerston
l.
Mr. Hume
asked whether all the young
1120
Lord Palmerston
said, that the number of students furnished with cadetships during the last two years was 113. Of these 46 were by purchase, and 67 by gift.
Mr. Hume
objected to the appointment of new officers in the present distressed state of the country, whilst there were many meritorious officers on half-pay who would be glad to obtain employment. He also objected to the high salaries which the staff officers of the college received.
Lord Palmerston
said, that officers, to be of service to their country, should be well educated. If they were to be instructed in that kind of knowledge which would be useful to them in their profession, it was right that the instructors should be paid for their trouble. All the officers educated at the college had distinguished themselves; a proof that the expense of the establishment had not been thrown away.
Mr. Hume
objected to the sons of gentlemen being educated at the public expense. He wished to know how many days, during the last year, the governor of the college, whose salary was 1,500
l.
Sir A. Hope
said, that he was the governor of the college. He obtained leave of absence for two months, during the last year, upon urgent private business; but his attention was not withdrawn from the establishment. The situation was an arduous one; and, so far from being an object of desire, he had resigned it for the situation which he formerly held, the salary of which was only 400
l.
Colonel Wood
said, that the example of the Americans had been referred to; but they had a military college, as well as this country.
Colonel Davies
remarked, that the expense of the American army was
1121
l.
l.
Sir H. Hardinge
said, that in the American college there were 268 cadets, who cost more than he was aware of.
Mr. Hume
said, he would ask, whether 24,000
l.
l.
l.
Sir Hussey Vivian
considered the estimate not beyond the amount required. Whilst he was upon his legs, he wished to say a few words upon a matter introduced to the notice of the House by an hon. baronet (sir F. Burdett) whom he was sorry he did not see in his place. He referred to a paragraph which had appeared in the newspapers respecting a transaction in the 10th Hussars. When it was first mentioned, he had stated, that he had no doubt the affair would turn out to have arisen from a desire to abstain from the infliction of corporal punishment. He thought that such subjects as these should not be brought before the House, because they tended to create prejudices towards a certain quarter, though he was quite sure the hon. baronet had no improper object in bringing this matter forward. He had stated, that the transaction had been exaggerated, and he held in his hand a report from the commanding officer of the 10th, which fully confirmed his statement. The man had behaved extremely ill, and recourse was had to the usual punishment of drill; he lay down, refused to move, and two Serjeants were directed to force him along. He afterwards was confined; and subsequently expressed contrition for his offence. The officer consented to overlook it, but insisted upon his performing two days' drill. The only point of the officer's conduct upon which the commander-in-chief had felt any dissatisfaction was, his not bring-
1122
Mr. Monck
thought that much of the charge might be dispensed with. There was no reason why these gentlemen should be educated at the public expense. If we were to have a metallic currency and low prices, we must have low taxes.
General Gascoyne
observed, that the hon. member for Aberdeen had recommended that persons educated at the college should pay the expense out of their own pocket, except officers' sons, who should be educated at the public expense. Now, the case was exactly so. Where the individuals were not officers' sons, they paid for their education.
Sir J. Yorke
said, that if the charge of defraying the expenses of this college were taken from the public, it became a private seminary; and at private seminaries pupils learnt nothing. Noblemen's and gentlemen's sons came away from those schools without learning any thing but extravagance and swindling.
Mr. Hume
replied, that his object was, not to allow the sons of officers to be educated at the public expense. He was satisfied the gallant admiral would not grudge to pay 125
l.
1123
Lord Palmerston
thought, that great misunderstanding prevailed upon the subject of this vote. Take all the seminaries of the country together, and it would he found that such an education as was given at the military college could not be obtained elsewhere at as cheap a rate. It had been objected that the cadets should pay the expense of their own education; and so they did in part. But there were the sons of distinguished officers, who could not pay the whole expense of their education; and, would the hon. member exclude them from rising to the height pf their profession? So long as we had, an army, the officers of it should be well educated.
The committee divided: For the amendment 22; Against it 87.
List of the Minority.
Althorp, visc.
Palmer, C. F.
Bernal, R.
Pares, T.
Blake, sir F.
Rice, T. S.
Burdett, sir F.
Rickford, W.
Davies, col.
Robinson, sir G.
Howard, hon. H.
Russell, lord J.
Hume, J.
Sykes, D.
Knight, R.
Tomes, J.
Leycester, R.
Wharton, J.
Martin, J.
Wyvill, M.
Monck, J. B.
TELLER.
Ord, W.
Smith, S.
On the resolution, "That 35,498
l.
Mr. Hume
objected that, in a variety of cases, governors and lieutenant-governors were kept up whose appointments were merely nominal. Some never resided at all; and in many places the garrisons were only kept up for the purpose of placing a certain number of sinecures at the disposal of government.
Lord Palmerston
said, that many of the posts were not sinecures, and that such as were, were rewards given to meritorious officers for services performed.
Mr. Hume
wished to know why Fort Augustus and Fort William, two places which the military commission had recommended for reduction, were not given up? and why there was an increase in the estimate? He understood that, they were still maintained at the desire of the duke of Wellington.
Lord Palmerston
said, that if they had been demolished, the officers attached to them would have retained their pay during life; so that nothing would have been gained. The trifling increase in the estimate, arose from some addition, of
1124
Mr. Hume
was afraid that the favoured officers, and those of influence, got more of this reward than the meritorious ones. Who, for instance, was the governor of Hull, with a sinecure of more than 800
l.
Sir A. Hope
objected to the term sinecure, as applied to the appointments in question, which were invariably the hard-earned rewards of long service. In the course of a war, during which 500 meritorious individuals had risen to the rank of general officer, there were but forty-four of these little governments to distribute amongst them; and these were the same as had existed in the British army for upwards of a hundred years. They were, in fact, the only reward in the power of the Crown to bestow upon officers who had become distinguished, wounded, or worn out in the service of their country. The hon. member could not point out one individual who had obtained his appointment from mere favour. The individual alluded to was general Hill one of the duke of Wellington's aide-de-camps.
Lord John Russell
said, that he had changed his opinion since last year upon this point. He thought that the Crown ought to have the power, of providing for officers; and that a place was better than a pension, because there was something of honour attached to it. Still he could not understand why Fort Agustus and Fort William had not been demolished.
Sir H. Hardinge
said, that since the Caledonian canal had been constructed, one, of these forts stood at the very entrance of it; and if it were not for it, any privateer with a couple of, guns might come up to the lock gates and blow them off. As for the other fort, it was, used as a barrack, and was wanted in that part of the country. Besides, he believed, that the maintenance of these forts was part of the act of Union with Scotland.
Mr. Hume
said, the forts were not built till after the Union. The canal alluded to was itself useless, and it was too much to pay 1,000
l.
1125
Sir A. Hope
felt himself called upon to interfere, when he heard a gallant officer spoken of in so disrespectful a manner in his absence. He really thought it altogether unfair to take this course.
Mr. Hume
contended for his right to allude to the conduct of public officers. How else were they to be brought to justice? And how was it in this very case? Lord Charles Somerset could not be got over to this country, although they had been led to expect that he would be here to take his trial long ago.
The Chancellor of the Exchequer
thought the hon. member misunderstood the grounds on which he had been called to order. It was not because the hon. member was bringing charges, but because he was using unguarded expressions. His whole argument, however, was foreign to the purpose, because not a halfpenny of the governor of the Cape's salary was paid out of the present vote.
Mr. Hume
said, that his argument was quite to the purpose. He said, that if the Cape had another governor, it might be made to pay all its own expenses. In saying that lord Charles Somerset was detested by every body, he meant every body, at the Cape; and as far as his knowledge went it was so. [Cries of "Order."]
The Attorney-general
.—A man under accusation!
Mr. Hume
.—Under accusation! Why that was just What he said—under serious accusations—for which he ought to be brought to justice.
Mr. Wilmot Horton
was disposed to believe that the hon. member for Montrose had exceeded the instructions of his constituents of the colonies, and that he had pledged them more extensively than they
1126
Colonel Davies
condemned the whole management of the colonies as the most infamous system of jobbing on the face of the globe. The expense of keeping every colony was greater now than it had been while they were in the hands of the power from which it had been taken. Under the Dutch the Cape of Good Hope paid all its expenses. His object in rising was, that his hon. friend should not be hunted down.
Mr. S. Rice
, in allusion to the complaints against lord C. Somerset, took oc-
1127
Mr. Hume
said, that the hon. member might as well have eulogized the character of sir Peregrine Pickle. What had that officer's character to do with the present question? In a time like this, every shilling that could be saved ought to be saved. Why should individuals in this country be called on to pay for the garrisons of Canada or the Cape of Good Hope, any more than for the troops employed in Jamaica? If the colonies were worth being defended, surely they ought to pay for that defence. In his opinion, the 5,900
l.
l.
Mr. Wilmot Horton
defended the propriety of the vote. It was very true that the power of taxation, to meet the expense of the garrison—and every other expense with respect to the Cape of Good Hope—rested with the government. The question, then, was, whether the colony was able to support the necessary expense? There was nothing analogous between the situation of the Cape of Good Hope and that of Jamaica. The hon. member talked of introducing British laws, and even the British language, in the former place. But it was deceiving the House to say that such objects could be effected in so easy a manner. Every thing possible had been done for the amelioration of that colony.
Sir R. Wilson
said, that when he was at the Cape, a Dutch officer, who had been governor there, informed him, that he had been always able to levy sufficient in the colony, for the maintenance of the garrison, &c, without calling for a shilling from the mother country. He did not understand why that should no longer be the case.
The committee divided: For the amendment 21; Against it 116.
List of the Minority.
Bernal, R.
Newman, R. W.
Blake, sir F.
Palmer, C. F.
Blight, H.
Rickford, W.
Burdett, sir F.
Rumbold, C. E.
Davies, col.
Sykes, D.
Evans, W.
Tomes, J.
Hobhouse, J. C.
Webb, E.
Knight, R.
Wood, T.
Leycester, R.
Wyvill, M.
Marjoribanks, S.
Martin, J.
TELLER.
Monck, J. B.
Hume, J.
1128
On the resolution, "That 107,296
l.
Mr. Hume
inquired, whether those foreign officers were allowed to sell their half-pay?
Lord Palmerston
said, that they were permitted to sell their half-pay, in precisely the same way as British officers, but that commissions did not bear the same price according to the rank. The instances, however, were few in which this permission had been taken advantage of.
Mr. Hume
said, that if old men whose incumbrance on the public would be determined by a few years, were allowed to substitute younger men in their places, he could not see where the system would stop.
Lord Palmerston
said, the hon. member had adopted a mistaken view of this matter. The half-pay was by no means a perpetual arrangement, as he seemed to suppose; nor were the individuals who remained on the list a whit more immortal than those who sold out. The advantage of the system was this, that those foreign half-pay officers formed a class of men who could not be employed, without a special act of parliament; but, by allowing them to sell out, instead of supporting a body of officers from whom we could derive no service, we procured the assistance of British officers whose services were at once available. This arrangement did not substitute young lives for old ones. It was most advantageous to the country, and to the persons immediately concerned, by giving a scope to the preferment of meritorious officers. This was a most desirable object. Since the peace, officers were growing gray in the service, who, in consequence of this arrangement, were enabled to get forward.
On the resolution, "That 1,285,566
l.
Mr. Hume
said, there was no man more anxious than he was to provide for those individuals who had served their country in the field; but he could not conceive why this expense should go on increasing. In 1821, the sum charged was 940,000
l.
l.
l.
l.
l.
l.
1129
Lord Palmerston
said, the vote was required to requite those soldiers who had served for a given period, or who had within that period been disabled in the service of the country, and had thus become entitled to pensions. It was not for those who administered the regulation to dictate what number of men should present themselves for admission; it was only when those claims were made, that the duty of the officers of that establishment commenced, by investigating the nature of those claims. Considering the large amount of the army during the war, there must have arisen a greater number of claims from those who had been partially disabled, than could have been supposed to have been reduced in consequence of deaths. He felt confident that the House would not apply an ill-judged economy to the pittance of the soldier who had been disabled in the service of his country.
Mr. Hume
recollected the noble lord folding forth in 1817 and 1818, that most of those on the pension list were men who must have suffered from the war, and that a great reduction might naturally be expected to take place; but if instead of 800,000
l.
l.
l.
l.
l.
l.
l.
l.
l.
l.
1130
l.
l.
Sir C. Long
said, that the hon. member had not taken notice of the fact, that in 1822 the out-pensions of Kilmainham had been, incorporated with those of Chelsea. He admitted, however, that the position taken by the hon. gentleman was one in which he himself had been placed. He had looked for a diminution under this head; but instead of it, he was surprised by an increase. He had also found the utmost difficulty in accounting for it. He knew that it could be accounted for, in part, by the reduction of veteran battalions, and in part by the recalling of troops from the East and West Indies. But these two modes were not enough to account for a gradual and progressive increase. He thought it wrong decidedly, and had sent persons into various parts of England to detect fraud and imposition, if they existed. None had been detected. He had sent parties into Ireland upon the same errand. But as yet he had no satisfactory returns. He could not say where the fault lay. Certainly, the government was not blameable. They could not refuse the pensions. The increase was probably owing chiefly to the service-pension list existing under Mr. Windham's system, adopted when the House and country did not seem to have the least idea of the extent to which the expense might be carried. He had opposed that service-pension plan at the time it was proposed, and he was now clearly convinced that it ought never to have been carried into effect. But that regulation had been subsequently altered, and its provisions confined to those who had enlisted under that system. The rest were under a different regulation, and not entitled to a service-pension until they had served twety-years. Under the former system, it was competent, in many instances, for persons to retire on service-pensions, whose ages only amounted to about thirty. The hon. member must therefore complain of Mr. Windham's law. But he hoped we had now reached the acme of the effects of that system.
Mr. H. Gurney
complained of the hardships suffered under the commission
1131
Lord Palmerston
believed the hon. member could not name any ease in which the person called on was not liable to pay. Still it did not follow, because an individual was called on to pay money in this manner, that any doubt was cast on his honesty; for it might happen that too great a sum was originally issued by government to the individual) and then it night, properly and fairly, remain in his hands till he was called on Co repay the balance Of that which he had received On the other hand, the delay of the government in thus calling on an individual was no imputation on them; for they might not be able to make up their accounts immediately. In all these cases, in which the parties had resisted the claim of government, their resistance had been found illegal.
ORDNANCE ESTIMATES.
Sir H. Hardinge
, before be proceeded to propose any vote, begged to make a few observations relative to the Ordnance Estimates for this year. It would be seen at once that an increase bad taken place in the amount of the whole sum to be voted. That increase was, however, no actual increase of the expense of the Ordnance department, but arose from the transfer of certain items from the army extra ordinaries and navy estimates. From the army extra ordinaries the sum of 210,260
l.
1132
l.
l.
l.
l.
l.
l.
1133
l.
l.
l.
1134
l.
l.
l.
l.
l.
l.
l.
Mr. Bernal
said, that having just got through the Army Estimates the Ordnance Estimates were now to be considered. In both of these branches-of expenditure he
1135
The Chancellor of the Exchequer
said, that the particular circumstances which had taken place in the course of the session had hitherto precluded him, without any fault, and certainly without any desire of his own, from presenting to the consideration of the House those statements to which they might look for the means of giving effect to the measures already agreed upon, as well as to that at present under discussion. He would, however, now undertake to promise, that on that night sunlight, he would certainly submit to the House the view of his majesty's government upon the actual state of the finances of the country; and he entertained no doubt
1136
Mr. Hume
said, he had expected, after all the promises held out of the consolidation of offices, that the country would have had the benefit of reduction; instead of which, he was sorry to observe an increase of expenditure in every item. He had already shown that the department of the army was going on in a progressive ratio of expense. The same, it now appeared, was to be the case with the Ordnance, until at length the country would be destroyed by a load of taxation to support all those enormous establishments. The Artillery were now to be augmented to seventy men each company, and next year they were to be increased to eighty. The hon. member said, that thirty-five companies of Artillery could not be dispensed with, but he really believed that ten companies were quite sufficient. We were not in a state of war: the colonies needed no defence; the twenty companies required for their relief were altogether superfluous. He regretted very much to observe the disposition in his majesty's ministers to extravagance. In 1792 the whole amount of the expense for the Artillery was only 445,000
l.
l.
l.
l.
l.
Sir H. Hardinge
defended the present scale upon which the Ordnance estimate was framed; and said, that so far from its showing an increasing expense in the particular department alluded to, there was a reduction of 67,000
l.
l
Sir Joseph Yorke
said, that with reference to the reduction in this branch of the public expenditure under Mr. Pitt's government in 1792, he must say that the
1137
Sir Ronald Fergusson
said, that there was no branch of our force which it was so necessary to keep up as the Artillery. It was very expensive to raise such a corps, and, therefore, it ought to be kept efficient. The British Artillery was one of the best arms of the country.
Mr. Hume
said, that his object was, to show that the Artillery had been augmented merely because the infantry had been augmented; and for this augmentation no good reason whatever had been given. If ministers would go on at this extravagant rate, and the House would allow them, he could only say, let them do it in God's name, for he could not prevent them.
Mr. Hobhouse
regretted to find that it was intended to retain a battalion of the guards in the Mews at Charing-cross. It would be much more becoming, constitutional, and seemly to the eyes of Englishmen, if the present opportunity of local improvement on the spot, carrying on under the eyes of sir Charles Long, the Vitruvius of the present day, were taken, to get rid of this infringement of a long-established constitutional principle. It was highly improper to keep a large body of troops close to the houses of parliament, close to the king's palace, close to the courts of law. It might be said, this four or five hundred men could not overawe Westminster. But it was fitting that the military should be removed out of sight; and especially as there was an abundance of barracks in which they might be stationed. Such was the feeling of some of his constituents; and, in compliance with that feeling, he had waited on the duke of York, who received him as his royal highness received every body, but who had told him that it was determined on that the troops should be kept there. God forbid that he should object to men in a red coat. He had as much respect for soldiers as any man, in their proper places; but it was not a fit thing
1138
Mr. Secretary Peel
said, that the hon. member's objection divided itself into two heads—the architectural and the constitutional objection. On the first point, he could not conceive what offence it was against good taste, that human beings should be put in a place where horses had hitherto been kept. Neither could he tell on what the constitutional objection was founded. He should be prepared to contend, when the hon. member brought the subject forward, that it was the more constitutional course to lodge the men in barracks than to quarter them on the citizens. At least in the time of Charles 1st the cry was, that "the soldiers should not sojourn with the free citizens of the country against their will." As to the usage, the hon. member should recollect, that from 1754 to 1776, it was the practice to keep a battalion of guards at the Savoy, and when the Savoy was burned in 1776, the buildings in Somerset-house were appropriated for the same number of troops, from that period to 1789. As a general proposition too, he should be prepared to show, that it was more conducive to the efficiency of the troops, to lodge them in barracks, than to quarter them on the publicans, where they necessarily mingled with characters of the worst description. What the effect of quartering on the publicans was, he would show by a single instance; at that moment there were soldiers quartered at
1139
Colonel Davies
thought there could be no question as to the preferableness of keeping the soldiers in barracks, instead of suffering them to live in public-houses, associating with the most dissolute of the populace.
Colonel Johnson
agreed, that troops were much easier kept in subordination in barracks, than if quartered in public-houses; but the situation of the new barracks was what his hon. friend was opposed to. They would stand in the heart of Westminster, than which he could conceive nothing more objectionable.
Mr. Hobhouse
said, that if he was in error as to his constitutional law, he erred with very respectable authority. Blackstone had written in strong terms against the practice of separating the soldiers from the people. It was said that they were thereby better subjected to military discipline. But he would rather that they should be a little worse soldiers, than be cut off from all community of feeling with the people.
General Townsend
said, that if the House wished to have the soldiers in good order, they must be kept in barracks. In his own regiment it frequently happened, that men were quartered out for want of room; but they generally complained of being billeted among the blackguards with whom they were obliged to mix in the public-houses. The army would soon run to confusion and disorder if the barrack system were abolished.
The several resolutions were agreed to.
HOUSE OF LORDS.
Tuesday, March 7, 1826.
ABOLITION OF SLAVERY.
On the
1140
"That it is expedient to adopt effectual and decisive measures for ameliorating the condition of the slave population in his majesty's colonies:
"That, through a determined and persevering, but at the same time judicious and temperate, enforcement of such measures, this House looks forward to a progressive improvement in the character of the slave population, such as may prepare them for a participation in those civil rights and privileges which are enjoyed by other classes of his majesty's subjects:
"That this House is anxious for the accomplishment of this purpose, at the earliest period that shall be compatible with the well-being of the slaves themselves, with the safety of the colonies, and with a fair and equitable consideration of the interests of private property."
Earl Bathurst
then rose. The noble earl began b}' observing, that he was happy to say it would not be necessary for him to trouble their lordships at much length, to induce them to agree to the motion with which he meant to conclude. The resolutions of the House of Commons which had just been read had been made the foundation of certain instructions for improving the situation of the slave population in the West-India colonies. Their lordships would recollect that, more than two years ago, he had had the honour of calling their lordships' attention to those instructions which, in point of fact, had been embodied in the shape of orders in council, and sent out to the colonies. In those orders in council provision was made for the execution of all those measures which his majesty's government thought necessary for carrying into effect the plan of improvement founded on the resolutions of the House of Commons. He had great satisfaction in saying, that the measures thus adopted by government had experienced no objection from any quarter in this country, but, on the contrary, had met with general approbation. In consequence of this general approbation, he had felt the more confidence in urging the measures on the
1141
1142
1143
Lord Calthorpe
said, he was ready to
1144
1145
1146
1147
1148
1149
Lord Ellenborough
thought that the House was placed in rather an extraordinary situation by having had now for the first time submitted to them resolutions passed elsewhere nearly three years ago, and which they had had the opportunity, in the intervening time, of knowing were proved to be useless and inadequate for the accomplishment of their intended object. The true question before them was, ought they to adopt resolutions thus proved to have been ineffectual or to adopt others more likely to promote a salutary result? He agreed that the colonial system ought to be greatly ameliorated; he agreed that the odious system of slavery ought to be abolished; but his doubts were great, that either purpose would be attained by the line of conduct now proposed. The true question then was, in what manner could they most easily, surely, and rapidly diminish the sum of human misery which must exist so long as slavery was tolerated? If these resolutions were alone to be adopted, accompanied with a vague hint, that if they failed in their intended effect, the legislature would proceed to ulterior measures, without avowing what the nature of such measures would be, he not only doubted that the anticipations of the government would be realised, but inclined to the opinion, that such a course, instead of diminishing, would tend to aggravate the existing evil. He confessed, that as the subject was now placed before him, he could not see his way through the difficulties which on all sides encompassed it. The noble earl had said, that if the present step were not effectual, the government would resort to other means. What were those means? What objection could there be to supply a description of them? He desired to know what their nature would be, before he was implicated one step in such a system of legislative interference. The noble earl was obliged to admit that the colonial assemblies had disappointed the expectations of his majesty's government; but he nevertheless went on to state, that they had shown a disposition to amend their practice, that they had made a large provision for the clergy of the established church, that they had taken steps for the education of slave
1150
1151
1152
The Earl of Liverpool
said, that if the noble lord's speech meant any thing, it would go the length of recommending that parliament should do nothing at ail in this momentous question. And was this a decision in which they could for a moment acquiesce? If all (as he believed was the case) were prepared to agree in the abstract, that slavery ought to be abolished, if all were agreed that immediate steps should be taken to ameliorate the condition of the slave, and qualify him for eventual enfranchisement, then how was it that any noble lord could consistently call upon them to take no step in the accomplishment of their professed object? If the noble lord asked him, why had these resolutions been so long in their passage from one House of Parliament to the other—he had little in the way of explanation to offer, and would fairly admit that he had no satisfactory reason to assign why such a delay should have arisen; but he would nevertheless add, that if their present appearance before their lordships was calculated to show that government were serious and determined in the course which these resolutions implied, and would thereby give another chance of success to the experiment, he, for one, was not sorry that such an opportunity had been afforded of putting on record the determination of parliament and the government. The question, was not, however, why these resolutions had
1153
1154
The Duke of Gloucester
said, he felt it incumbent on him to say a few words on the present occasion. He was ready to agree with those who regretted that these resolutions had not been sooner submitted to their lordships. He was ready also to agree with those who thought it would have been better if they had been expressed in stronger terms; but still as they were here, and must be taken in their present form, he was ready to give them his cordial support. He confessed also, that he did not think they were called upon to state by anticipation what course they should determine to pursue in the event of their resolutions being disregarded. But he thought that, waiving for the present this ulterior consideration, the more
1155
The Lord Chancellor
said:—My lords, if I understand rightly the course which we are called upon this evening to pursue, it is to give additional effect to resolutions transmitted from the lower House of Parliament. But it has been objected by one noble lord (Calthorpe) that in the first place these resolutions state no stronger ground for the measures proposed than that of expediency, and that expediency is no sufficient ground. Another noble lord (Ellenborough) contends, in the second place, that the effect of these resolutions, if your lordships should even agree to them, would amount to nothing at all. A further objection has been made as to the late period at which they are brought up hither. Now, with regard to the communicating to your lordships these resolutions at so late a period, after their being passed elsewhere, I will take the liberty of saying, that I cannot help thinking it would be an infinitely better plan to go upon generally, that when either House of parliament adopts resolutions or measures of an important character, affecting great political or private rights, it should forthwith communicate such measures or resolutions to the other House of Parliament; and I shall say nothing more on that subject. The resolutions in question are here, at last, that is
1156
1157
1158
1159
Lord Redesdale
said, he gave his cordial assent to the resolutions, being firmly convinced of their justice. If any thing was calculated to defeat the measure, it would be the violence which was manifested in many of the petitions which had been laid upon their lordships' table. In the island of Trinidad, the colonial government had taken upon itself to make some enactments on the subject, and the system was working extremely well there. Of the mischievous effects of a sudden emancipation from slavery, the island of St. Domingo afforded a fatal example; he was, therefore, in favour of a gradual abolition of the system. It was well known, from history, that slavery formerly existed in this country, but the number of slaves was comparatively few. In the reign of Richard, the whole number was 180,000; but what proportion did that bear to the whole population? What proportion also did the slaves in the Roman establishment bear to the population? It might be asked, why was Jamaica more backward than any of the other colonies, in conforming to the already expressed wishes of the British legislature? Probably because she had the example of St. Domingo before her, and dreaded a repetition of the horrible scene of massacre and bloodshed which succeeded the simultaneous emancipation of the slaves on that island. Should we not, then, allow for the feelings of the white inhabitants of this particular colony? and, however we might wish that they would forget the past, was it not excusable in them with such an example to refer to, to look on their sable neighbours with distrust and alarm? With respect to the measures proposed, if they were proceeded in with calmness and temperance, there was little doubt of their ultimate success. There could not be a second opinion as to the improvement which the adoption of these resolutions would introduce into the colonies. Both masters and slaves would feel their benefit, and the former would find a sensible difference in having slaves by wages, instead of holding in bondage a feeble and degraded race of men, whose obedience could only be purchased by the terrors of the lash. If the slaves were allowed to purchase their own
1160
Lord Dudley and Ward
said, that in rising to deliver his sentiments on the question of West-India slavery, he felt that the subject was one from which he could willingly have abstained altogether, and which few could approach with any thing like satisfaction. He well knew, and it had been a matter of boast among the abolitionists, that, for some time past, and especially of late, public attention had been earnestly drawn to the state of the negroes in the West Indies. From every corner of the kingdom, from every city, corporation, town, and village, parliament had received the almost unanimous expression of disgust, not only against the hateful means by which men were reduced to that condition, but against slavery itself. Such an expression of strong feeling was at all times entitled to respect, independent of the merits of the case; and there could not be a shadow of doubt that this increase of interest among so large a portion of our fellow subjects, was to be ascribed to the increase of knowledge, humanity, and religion. So far there was good reason to rejoice; but having admitted it, he hoped he might add, without offence, certainly without the desire of offending, that the fervent zeal lately manifested was in part to be attributed to other and far different causes. The present was a period of great public tranquillity, although it had been subjected to a temporary interruption—he hoped he might also say of great national prosperity—it was also a period of great intellectual activity and enterprise; and while the means of employment were below their usual average, the desire of obtaining it was more than ordinary: in other words,
1161
1162
1163
1164
1165
1166
1167
The Marquis of Lansdown
condemned the conduct of the colonial legislatures in neglecting to give effect to the resolutions then on the table of their lordships House, and hoped the length of time that had elapsed since those resolutions had been agreed to by the House of Commons, without the concurrence of their lordships in them having been obtained, had not been understood by the colonists to have been caused by any difference of opinion on the subject. He had at all times endeavoured rather to abstain from discussing the subject himself, than to enter upon it, from the deep sense he entertained of its difficulty. He felt that it was a question which ought to be discussed without passion, and with reference also to the opinions and the interests of those with whom it was most desirable, if possible to co-operate. He had hoped that ere this, the time would have arrived, when the West-India planters, and the colonial legislatures would have been awakened to a sense of humanity and religion; and from humanity he would contend religion never could be separated. But he bad been disappointed; and he felt particularly disappointed in the refusal of the West-India proprietors to secure to the slaves the means by which they could acquire property. He had entertained a hope that the colonial legislatures, would have at least so far entered into the views of the parliament of Great Britain; but he repeated his regret at his disappointment. He was the last man who would recommend the adoption of the course mentioned by his noble friend who spoke last, namely, to seize upon individual cases on which to found arguments against a system. It was not upon partial anecdotes, or isolated instances, that he founded his opinion, that it was time for the legislature of this country to interfere. That opinion was founded upon the proceedings of the colonists themselves in their houses of assembly; and on that ground he would call upon their lordships to give effect to the resolutions, by exhibiting a determination to see them adopted. It was essential to the character of the British nation; it was essential to the dignity of the British parliament; it was essential to the
1168
1169
Earl Bathurst
said, that he had already given instructions, that in Jamaica the house of Assembly should be convened as soon as the season would permit; and the same instructions had been given to all the other colonies.
The Bishop of Bath, and Wells
said, that after all that had been said and written on the subject of slavery, he little
1170
1171
Lord St. Vincent
stated, that, though not able to give the noble marquis opposite the satisfaction of hearing that the slave, when prepared with the means of purchasing his freedom, could demand it as a right, nevertheless, in the island of Jamaica, with which he (lord St. Vincent) was connected, he had been credibly informed that nearly four thousand slaves were voluntarily emancipated between the years 1820 and 1823., This was the more satisfactory, as well as the more honourable, as it arose from the mere spontaneous act of the master. In addition to what he had stated, the legislative body of the Island of Jamacia passed an act, by which slaves, under certain forms, notwithstanding any limitation, entail, debt, or ether legal difficulties, might be emancipated. It was but fair to conclude, that the same feeling which had produced so considerable a manumission under many existing impediments, now that such impediments were removed, would operate in a much greater ratio. He (lord St. Vincent) had no doubt that the same generous impulse had equally operated in the other colonies; but not having the same means of information as to their local transactions, he could not state it as a fact.
1172
1173
1174
Lord Suffield
expressed a hope, that the noble earl would give some more definite answer with respect to the expected early meeting of the different colonial Assemblies. It was of the utmost importance that parliament should be put in possession, at the earliest possible period, of the proceedings taken by the local legislatures, upon these resolutions, otherwise two years might elapse before further measures were adopted in this country.
Earl Bathurst
said, he could only repeat that instructions had been sent out to the different islands to convene the Assemblies at the earliest possible period; and those instructions, no doubt, would be complied with.
1175
The Bishop of Ferns
said, that he should not have risen at that late hour, if, it were not to obviate the impression which might prevail, from the circumstance that no petitions had been presented on the subject from Ireland, and that therefore his country did not participate in the feelings of the people of England. But, in fact, the feelings of the people of Ireland had been evinced on the subject long ago. When the restrictions on the trade of that country were first relaxed, an attempt was made to form companies for the purpose of carrying on the African slave trade; but that attempt had been put down by a single sentence from one individual. A meeting was called at Cork, and the persons who called it stated the great advantages of the trade; but an old man rose in the midst of those assembled, and in terms too coarse to be repeated, he uttered a malediction on the head of the first man who should contribute the least assistance in promoting so infamous an object. The imprecation (he hoped it was heard in mercy, and forgiven) had the desired effect. The project was abandoned, and from that time, which was forty years ago, to the present no man had been found to revive the subject. Thus the opinion of the people of Ireland upon this question might be said to have been long since practically declared. He thought it necessary to state these particulars, in order to obviate any imputation that might arise, in consequence of no petition having been presented from Ireland against the slave trade at this particular juncture. For himself, he had only to say, that the resolutions before their lordships had his most cordial concurrence, embodying, as they did, the solemn advice of both Houses of parliament to the colonial governments. He thought that they were, in their present shape, as well calculated as possible to produce a good effect; and that if they were accompanied by any threat, they would only tend to create intemperance and ill-will, instead of amicable acquiescence.
The Resolutions were agreed to.
HOUSE OF COMMONS.
Tuesday, March 7, 1826.
EDUCATION IN IRELAND.
Sir John Newport
rose, to move for the production of an account of the application of all sums granted in the last session for the furtherance of education in Ireland. He called the attention of the House to the
1176
l.
l.
Mr. Goulburn
said, he was not able to state at that moment the ultimate determination of government on the subject of education in Ireland. It must necessarily be influenced by the reports which the commissioners might make, and the plans they might recommend. As far as
1177
l.
l.
l.
Mr. Spring Rice
supported the motion.
Mr. F. Lewis
assured the House that the reports of the commissioners of education would all be presented by the time appointed, with the exception of the report on the college of Maynooth, which would be postponed for a year. Great, but, he trusted, not insuperable, difficulties opposed themselves to the plans which the commissioners had hitherto recommended. They had not yet abandoned those plans, and he, for one, still entertained hopes that they would be ultimately successful.
Mr. Plunkett
said, that the school at Middleton was one on a private foundation merely, and did not come within the jurisdiction of the commission. At one time the school alluded to had been under the immediate inspection of a gen-
1178
Mr. Secretary Peel
said, that if these schools on a private foundation, from the terms of their charter, or from any other cause, did not fall within the operation of the act of 1813, he was prepared to say that means should be immediately devised for subjecting them to an inquiry as rigid as that which might be extended to any school of public foundation, or under the immediate superintendence of the government. It never could have been intended by the legislature, at the time it authorized a commission to inquire into the state of schools of public foundation, that they should totally pass by schools erected by the grants of individuals, when those grants were manifestly intended for the public benefit. Still less could they have intended to pass by private foundations, where the income was stated at 200
l.
l.,
l.
Sir John Newport
observed, that the person through whose influence these leases had been granted, which cut down properties of 2,000
l.
l.,
The motion was agreed to.
COMMITMENTS FOR CONTEMPT OF
Mr. Hume
rose to move for a
1179
d.
1180
l.
l.
1181
1182
The Attorney-General
said, that as he understood the return now moved for was a continuation of that formerly made, he could, of course, have no objection to it. Every body was aware of the importance of this subject; but put, as it was, in this general way, he should not feel himself justified if he took up the time of the House by any statement at present. His right hon. friend would soon present to the House the report of the commission appointed to inquire into the practice of the court of Chancery, and it would probably then become his duty to propose certain bills to carry into effect the alterations in the present practice which, that report might suggest. He could assure the House that every attention would be paid to the subject. With respect to the contempt incurred for non-payment of costs, if it were as stated by the hon. gentleman, he was ready to admit that the provision of the Insolvent Debtors' act, which already went to release persons confined for non-payment of money ordered by the court, ought to be extended, so as to relieve them from imprisonment for costs. The other cases were of a very different nature. Some remedy ought to be applied, if any thing like oppression or unfairness could be shown to exist under the present system; but it was impossible to meet all the views of the hon. gentleman on this subject, without going the length of abolishing the court of Chancery altogether. In a bill, for example, filed for the purpose of obtaining discoveries of the utmost importance to the justice of a case; if the defendant obstinately refused to make the discovery sought of him, what was to be done? There was no mode consistent with the law of England by which he could be compelled to do what justice required, except by imprisonment. But, the moment he put in his answer, he was released from confinement. Where was the hardship in this? If there were a hardship, and if it was thought that such a power ought no
1183
1184
Mr. Lockhart
thought, that if the process of contempt should be done away, or even weakened, all the usefulness of the court of Chancery would be destroyed. It was the only means the court had of protecting the interests of the suitors, and nobody could complain of it but those whose evil deeds exposed them to the punishment which the laws had a right to inflict upon them. He did not agree at all in the propriety of the act, which enabled persons when they had spent the money of the orphan, or the minor, to clear themselves from the effects of their obstinacy or iniquity. He thought that such a clause took a very great liberty with the property of the suitors of that court, and tended rather to promote injustice than justice in its proceedings. He trusted that a process, which was absolutely necessary to enable the court to perform its functions, would still be maintained.
The motion was agreed to.
PROMISSORY NOTES BILL.
On the order of the day for the third reading of this bill,
Lord A. Hamilton
said, that be would give his support to the measure, not because he thought it the best that might have been proposed for the adoption of
1185
Mr. Calcraft
said, he had intended to move an amendment at the present stage of this bill, but upon reflection he had abandoned that intention, and would content himself with declaring his opposition to the measure, with respect to which he would take the sense of the House, if he saw any members inclined to support him. He could look upon the measure in no other light than as a bill of pains and penalties against country bankers—a class of persons who had been most hardly dealt with. He thought that government, by the extensive issues of their own accommodation paper, had been greater encouragers of speculation than the country bankers; and was of opinion, that it would be impossible to obtain a sufficient quantity of metallic currency to supply the wants of the manufacturing districts. During the course of his parliamentary experience, he had never known a measure more calculated to produce mischief than the one under consideration.
Sir R. Heron
thought, that the country hankers had been shamefully treated by ministers and the parliament. The only measure which would give relief to the country was an immediate and extensive curtailment of the public expenditure.
Mr. J. Martin
said, that much unmerited odium had been thrown upon the country bankers. In a paper which purprorted to be a return of the number of bankrupt bankers, the names of several individuals were inserted who had never committed an act of bankruptcy, and of others who had superseded their commissions. In common fairness the hon. member for Aberdeen was bound to move for a return of the names of the country bankers who had superseded their commissions of bankruptcy.
Mr. Robertson
feared the House had overlooked the great difficulties which
1186
s.
s.
Mr. Carus Wilson
spoke of the necessity of country bankers making their notes payable in the place where they were issued. In consequence of this salutary practice, the bankers of Westmoreland and Cumberland had been able to stand against the storm. In Lancaster, a degree of swindling was going on, in the absence of bank-notes, by the circulation of improvident bills of exchange. For the small notes of the Bank of England he entertained a great dislike, from the facility they afforded to forgery. He hoped, if they were to be circulated throughout the country, that means would be resorted to to make them less liable to imitation.
Sir F. Blake
said, that if he were asked whether he would prefer a metallic or paper currency, he should certainly vote for the former. But, having once begun with the paper, we could not stop short. The principal object of this bill was, to circumscribe the issues in paper, and thereby accelerate the return to cash payments. It was on that principle that he had supported it. But he did not understand why all the advantages of the bill should be topsy-turvy in favour of the Bank of England; nor why that Bank should be shown greater favour than the country banks, as to the privilege of issuing notes
1187
The House then divided: For the third reading 108; against it 9: majority 99.
List of the Minority.
Benett, J.
Palmer, C. F.
Calvert, N.
Robertson, A.
Heron, sir R.
Wood, ald.
Heygate, ald.
TELLERS.
Hume, J.
Calcraft, J.
Lockhart, J.
Martin, J.
Mr. Abercromby
objected strongly to the power given to the Bank of England of issuing notes to the 10th of October next. He thought it was to be regretted that those words had found their way into the bill; for it gave to the Bank the power of manufacturing as many notes as they pleased. It plainly appeared that ministers had been misinformed as to the danger of contracting the circulation of the country bankers. The effect of the amendment was, to destroy all the small country notes. What was the value of the responsibility of the Bank? As to the responsibility of government, he was at a loss to know what it amounted to. The doctrine maintained in that House (and in which he concurred) was, that the Bank should consult their own interest, and not be subject to the control of government. He supported the bill; but he did it with regret since the introduction of this amendment. In order to put his opinion upon record, he meant to move that instead of the 10th of October, the 5th of February be inserted.
The Chancellor of the Exchequer
Mr. Hume
observed, that great stress had been laid on the quantity of paper in circulation. Now, he thought, that although no correct deductions could be made from the amount of paper currency on particular days, yet it was desirable that returns should be made by the coun-
1188
Mr. Hobhouse
seconded the motion. In the progress of this measure through the House, two propositions had, he said, been offered, neither of which had been agreed to; one was for securing the issues of country bankers by deposits; the other was for authorizing a summary process of compelling country bankers to pay in coin. His hon. friend had now offered a third, the object of which was, that the country bankers should condescend to give the country some account of the amount of their issues. It had been said, that the House had been legislating against the country bankers; whereas the House had been legislating for the country, and not for any particular interest. We had now no certain knowledge of the issues of the country bankers, and the House could not legislate properly without that knowledge. He thought his hon. friend might have gone further in his motion than he had done; for it was but just that those who dealt in the coin and circulation of the country should be similarly circumstanced with other traders. If the banking system was not put on a solid foundation, the country would soon be in a worse situation than at present. Fair as his hon. friend's proposition was, he supposed that, like the others, it would be rejected. He wished the chancellor of the Exchequer would imitate the conduct of his right hon. colleague. There was not an impartial man in the country who would not say that the president of the Board of Trade had acted on sound and just principles with regard to the silk trade. If the chancellor of the Exchequer had come down to the House and explained himself with the same frankness and firmness as the right hon. gentleman had done, in that admirable speech which he had listened to with the greatest pleasure, he would have done himself much credit. He should not have minded the obstacles cast in his way. He should not have minded the loss of votes in parliament, nor the clamour out of doors; but he should have pursued the straight-forward course, and the country would have supported him.
Mr. John Smith
said, that the appoint-
1189
The Chancellor of the Exchequer
said, that he resisted the present motion, not at all in consequence of any representation from the country bankers, but because he thought it was, upon its own merits, open to objection. If any banking companies were established under the bill which was to be read that night a second time, or any chartered companies—any companies to whom peculiar privilege was to be given—he should have no objection to demand some sort of account; but, particularly at the present moment, he was adverse to putting the Treasury in possession of the private concerns of individual bankers; and there were reasons why government would be better kept without such information. The hon. member said that he did not wish to make the publication in the Gazette imperative, but would leave it to the discretion of ministers. Now, he thought that ministers would be better without such discretion. It was also to be in the judgment of ministers, whether to lay the accounts received before the House; but it was possible that the House might call for the accounts against the judgment of ministers. At all events, the clause, as it was proposed, was inoperative; because it provided no penalty in case of neglect to return a true account; and this was the mere material, as cases might be imagined in which the temptation to give an inaccurate statement would be almost irresistible.
Mr. Hudson Gurney
opposed the introduction of the clause into this bill, with the objects of which it had no connection; whether advisable, as a matter of future regulation or otherwise.
Mr. Pearse
said, it was a mistaken
1190
Mr. Alderman Heygate
thought that the amount of notes in circulation should be laid before the public, and gave it as his opinion, that one-pound notes issued on government security, would be preferable to those of the Bank of England, or of any other bank.
Mr. Ellice
wished to know from the secretary for the Home Department, whether government were at all responsible for any over-issue of notes. He certainly understood the right hon. gentleman to say, on a former occasion, that not only the Bank, but the government were responsible for any exercise of that power beyond due discretion. The fact just mentioned by the hon. director proved, that there would be no danger in agreeing to the clause.
Mr. Secretary Peel
said, that when the small notes were issued in December, it was considered a peculiar measure, and had the sanction of government; consequently, so far as regarded the issue of those notes since that period to this, government should bear the responsibility. But, as a general measure, they were not at all implicated.
Mr. Monck
observed, that although there was no penalty attached to the violation of the clause, yet such violation might be punished as a misdemeanor.
The House divided: for Mr. Hume's clause 24*; against it 143: majority 119.
List of the Minority
Abercromby, hon. J.
Johnson, col.
Althorp, visc.
Knight, R.
Duncannon, visc.
Macdonald, hon. J,
Evans, W.
Monet, T. B.
Ellice, E.
Newman, R.
Guise, sir W.
Ord, W.
Graham, sir S.
Pares, T.
Grenfell, P.
Russell, lord G. W.
Heygate, ald.
Tierney, rt. hon. G.
Heron, sir R.
Warre, J. A.
1191
Webb,G;
TELLERS.
Wood, alderman;
Hume, J.
Wilson, sir R.
Hobhouse, J. C.
Wyvill, M.
Mr. Hume
then proposed a clause to give remedy, by summary process, against country bankers refusing to pay their small notes in gold coin. He wished for security to the holders of the one-pound notes; but if the House did not agree to make cash payments compulsory, there would be no such security. The chancellor of the Exchequer, on bringing in this Bill, had said, that security to the holders of small notes was his object. Could he therefore consent to pass this bill without that security? As the bill now stood, there must be an action, so that it might be one or six months before the value of the note could be recovered; and the action might cost 10
l.
l.
Mr. J. Smith
said, that if the hon. member's clause passed, not a respectable country banker would ever issue another one-pound note; and those which were out already they would get in as fast as possible. The fact was, that a remedy for refusal to pay in gold already existed. A one-pound note might be protested for non-payment just as regularly as a bill of exchange; and the cost of that first step—which the banker would be liable to pay—would be 22
s.
Mr. Hudson Gurney
remarked, that the chief instances of grievance brought forward by the hon. member for Montrose, had-been from Scotland, where, it appeared, this summary process existed, and whence, it should seem, by the hon. member's own showing, it was utterly useless.
Colonel Johnson
observed, that the remedy was inefficient. The banker might be liable to pay the 22
s.
The clause was negatived.,
Mr. Abercrombie then proposed to leave out the words "10th of October, 1826," and to insert "5th of Feb. 1826," instead thereof, which was negatived.
1192
The bill was then passed.
ARMY ESTIMATES.
The resolutions of the committee of supply to which the Army Estimates were referred, were reported to the House. On the question, that the report be now read,
Mr. Hobhouse
rose and said, that it was his intention, in pursuance of the notice which he had given, to propose a specific reduction of the number of troops which his majesty's ministers had thought fit to call on the House to vote as necessary for the military service of the country. The present, he knew, was rather an inauspicious moment for bringing forward a subject of so much importance; but he hoped that gentlemen would listen to him for a few moments, while he stated his reasons for considering the present as the most improper period that could be selected for proposing so large a military establishment as ministers now demanded from the House. The noble Secretary at War had told them that it was easy for gentlemen on the opposition side of the House, to declaim on such topics as the danger of keeping up a standing army, and the necessity which existed for the reduction of taxation. It might be easy or not; but that circumstance depended on the taste and temper of the audience to whom the declamation was addressed. Now, if (as he believed it would be admitted was the case) the noble lord had the audience in his favour, it was much easier for him to indulge in observation on the opposite topics—to argue that such and such reduction were not possible—than for those to whom the noble lord had alluded, to work up, with any profit or effect, those trite and worn-out subjects, which had been so often expatiated on within the walls of parliament, and passed by with total disregard. Now, the noble lord, in the speech which he delivered when he proposed the army estimates, had given the House no reason whatever for continuing the present large military establishment in time of peace; and still less had he assigned any ground for the increase which he had proposed; for, though it was comparatively small, still it was an increase; and in this period of public pressure, it was the bounden duty of ministers, if they asked for a large standing army, in this the eleventh year of peace, to come down with something like cogent arguments in support of such a proposition. An observation had been
1193
l.
l.
1194
1195
Colonel Johnson
seconded the motion.
Lord Palmerston
said, that although he could not agree in the proposition of the hon. gentleman, yet he was not disposed to object to the general principle which he had laid down; namely, that it was incumbent on the House to apportion, as scrupulously as possible, the amount of the military force to the actual wants of the country. Gentlemen, of course, had a right to make use of these anniversary occasions, for the purpose of making their observations, and of recording the opinions which they entertained on these particular subjects; but though the general principle
1196
1197
The House then divided. For the
1198
List of the Minority.
Althorp, visc.
Lamb, hon. G.
Bernal, R.
Lawley, F.
Blake, sir F.
Monck, J. B.
Colborne, N. R.
Ord, W.
Corbett, P.
Poyntz, W. S.
Davies, R. H.
Palmer, C.
Dennison, W. J.
Robinson, sir G.
Dickinson, W.
Robarts, A. W.
Duncannon, visc.
Rickford, W.
Ellice, E.
Tomes, John
Evans, W.
Webbe, E.
Graham, sir S.
Wilson, sir R;
Guise, sir W.
Wood, ald.
Heron, sir R.
Wyvill, M.
Howard, H.
Wharton, John
Honeywood, W. P.
TELLERS
Ingleby, sir W.
Kemp, T.
Hobhouse, J. C,
Knight, R.
Johnson, colonel
HOUSE OF COMMONS.
Wednesday, March 8, 1826.
DEPOSITS WITH THE BANK BILL.
Mr. Huskisson
said, the House would recollect, that when his right hon. friend, the chancellor of the Exchequer, communicated to them that the Bank had agreed to advance money on goods and merchandise pledged to them as security, he at the same time stated that the Bank had signified an expectation, that the law of Merchant and Factor or rather the alteration of that law, which took place last session, and would not take effect until the 1st of October, would be extended to them. He would therefore move for leave to bring in a bill to effect that object, which was simply to provide that any goods or pledges upon which the Bank advanced money, should be considered as a security to the Bank, notwithstanding any supposed power or control which others might attempt to exercise over them. This was conformable to the alteration in the late law, which declared, that notwithstanding the symbols of property exercised by the owner, goods should be held to be the property of the person in whose possession they were, and that his acts over them should be held binding, in preference to the claims of any other person. When Exchequer-bills were advanced, in 1811, for the relief of the distress then existing, on the same sort of security, a provision to the same effect was introduced, which was, in fact,
1199
Mr. J. Smith
said, that he approved of the original alteration of the law, and only regretted that it was not carried into effect instantly. It was a mistake to suppose that foreigners entertained any jealousy of the bill.
Mr. Baring
said, though he regarded this bill as an important improvement in the commercial law of the country, he had objected to it when it was introduced last session, because he saw no reason why it should hot have taken effect immediately oh its enactment. He knew of no foreigner having objected to it; nor, indeed, did he see upon what ground any foreigner could object to it, since it only assimilated the law of this country in that respect to the law of every civilized country in Europe. He admitted that an unnecessary delay to the operation of this act bad been agreed upon; but as the legislature had decreed, that a certain time should elapse before its operation, he did hot think it a sound practice to sacrifice a principle to this particular case. The commissioners of 1811 preferred advancing money on personal security, instead of on deposits of goods; and he hoped the Bank would follow that example. He believed the measure adopted by the Bank, under the suggestion of his right hon. friend, had been productive of the greatest good already; and that the manner in which the Bank was acting was deserving of general commendation. That body was taking the best steps, in the must delicate manner, and with as much rapidity as the nature of the case would admit; and he was happy to say, that there was already in London a renewed confidence, and a freedom of commercial intercourse within a few days, which he believed to be Wholly attributable to this measure.
Mr. Bernal
objected to the measure, and considered it a very dangerous precedent.
Mr. Grenfell
considered the precedent a good one, and he thought the mode adopted much better than an issue of Exchequer-bills.
1200
Mr. Abercromby
said, that nothing that had been done by ministers had so much met with his approbation, as their determination to refuse an issue of Exchequer bills.
Leave was given to bring in the bill.
HOUSE OF LORDS.
Thursday, March 9, 1826.
ROMAN CATHOLIC QUESTION.
The Earl of Darnley
, in rising to present a petition on this subject from a highly respectable body of individuals; said it had been in his hands for some days, and the reason why he had not brought it forward before was, that he saw the attention of parliament directed towards those measures which were introduced for the purpose of alleviating the commercial distress under which the country laboured. He had therefore thought it better to postpone the consideration of if, until the improved circumstances of the country would allow their lordships to give it that attention which the importance of the question deserved. Moreover, he found that parliament had been engaged on another subject, in which a certain portion of the community took a great interest; namely, those measures which were adopted for ameliorating the condition of the slaves. Though he by no means found fault with the ardent zeal which was evinced on behalf of the slaves, yet he must confess that his humanity was not of so excursive a nature, but that he must consider the state of a great proportion of the pool of Ireland quite as interesting as that of the slaves of the West Indies. In fact, the condition of the slaves in those islands was not, in many cases, so bad as the condition of the Irish poor. If was riot at present his intention to enter into any discussion on this subject, but he pledged himself to do so on some future occasion. In the mean time, he hoped their lordships would fee as much sympathy for the peasantry of Ireland, as they did for the slaves of-the West Indies. It appeared that the prime movers of the petitions in favour of the slaves belonged to a powerful sect, who, by an unnatural alliance with the high church, had contributed more than any other to that unfortunate decision against the Catholics which their lordships had come to in the course of the last sessions While they called upon their lordships to precipitate the emancipation of the
1201
The Earl of Liverpool
said, that with respect to what was stated in the petition on the subject of divided allegiance, that such a charge amounted to a charge of perjury, he must disclaim ever having made it. The Catholics declared, that in taking the oath of allegiance to his majesty, they disclaimed any divided allegiance, and he was convinced that in swearing allegiance, they swore what they conscientiously believed to be true. But they
1202
Ordered to lie on the table.
CORN LAWS.
Lord King
said, he had another petition to present against the job of jobs. It came from the carpenters and joiners of London, and was signed by 1,400 persons, who stated, that the law which excluded foreign corn greatly injured them, by the manner in which it affected the remuneration of their labour, and he agreed with them la the opinion. Some people were very fond of high prices, high rents, and high wages. By high prices they alleged that every thing was equalized; but in his opinion this sort of equalization did not produce any thing like equity or justice between parties. The great desideratum with the supporters of the Corn laws, wag certainly at all times high rents. But how were high rents to be obtained without high prices? The real object, then, was high prices; and high prices were not to be had without the exclusion of foreign corn. But, if you exclude foreign corn, you exclude food. Some people, however, said, that this exclusion of foreign corn created more English food. But it could do so in no other way than by forcing bad land; and if bad land was forced to produce food, it must be at the expense of so much additional labour—of labour far more than equivalent to the value of the food produced. Still, however, some persons said, "If you alter the Corn laws you will do no good, because to lower the price of corn will only be to lower the price of labour with it." But this was a very erroneous opinion; as the present state of things, compared with that when corn was cheap, would show. The price of labour now afforded the labourer only a bare existence, whereas heretofore he got enough, not only for his subsistence, but for comforts. It was certainly true that if corn were cheap, the money price
1203
The Earl of Carnarvon
said, he was for la free trade in corn as well as in everything else, but did not think that the question was one which should be discussed in the present state of the country. The noble lord went into arguments which others were not prepared to answer, and which, if they were, ought not to be discussed at that time. He could not acquiesce in the term "job" given to an act of parliament, which had not been adopted untilafter the most serious consideration. The measure was introduced in one session, and was not adopted until the next. Parliament might have erred, but if there was error, it was not intentional. If, upon due consideration, it should be found that the Corn laws were not consistent with the general interest, parliament would doubtless alter them. His wish was, that the agriculturist and the manufacturer should be placed on an equal footing, and that the Corn laws should form no impediment m the way of free trade. But his noble friend should consider what had been the effect produced by the Bank Restriction Set, the operation of which had lasted for twenty-five years. After the operation of that act had brought into cultivation land which Was never before cultivated, and had also brought into existence an immense agricultural population, which would be thrown out of employ by the discontinuance of that cultivation, he did not think that their lordships could suddenly rid themselves of all the consequences of that measure, without producing in every part of the country, greater distress than could be experienced by the journeymen carpenters of London; who he believed were as well off as most workmen. He made these observations, to show that it was not the landlords who were altogether to blame with respect to the Corn laws. The present was a period of commercial distress; but it should be recollected, that there had also been a time of agricultural distress. But at that time did not persons in trade also suffer? Did they not complain that the
1204
The Earl of Darnley
said, he did not rise in the expectation of correcting the vicious propensity of his noble friend who presented the petition, the only effect of whose language, in returning again and again to the same subject, must be to create discontent; which he knew could not be the intention of his noble friend. With regard to his own opinion on the Corn laws, it was a mistaketo suppose that he had decided against any alteration. If, however, parliament should withdraw all protection from agriculture, he did not think that such an alteration would be advantageous to the labourer; for if bread became cheap, labour would be cheap also. The question, in fact, was not one of high rents, but whether this country, involved in great domestic and financial difficulties, could compete on the same terms with countries experiencing no such embarrassments. He had thought it necessary to say this much, but hoped he should not be again provoked to notice the subject, until it came regularly under the consideration of the House.
Lord King
did not doubt but he should have occasion to provoke his noble friend again and again on this subject, if he was determined to be provoked every time a petition was presented. It was singular enough, however, that his two noble friends took such different views of his conduct. The one thought that he took the House by surprise with his arguments, the other that he used the same arguments too often. Nevertheless they both agreed in wishing him to discontinue his practice of addressing the House. It was certainly kind of his two noble friends to favour him with so much of their advice. He had indeed, got a great deal of advice of late; but he could not help thinking that there was occasionally something in the nature of it, that rendered it rather suspicion. He had been entreated, both in prose and
1205
Ordered to lie on the table.
STATE OF THE CHURCH ESTABLISHMENT
The Earl of Kingston
rose to bring forward the motion of which he had given notice. He had hoped, he said, that the subject would have been taken up by some one better qualified for the task than he was; and indeed he wished it had been brought before their lordships by one of the learned prelates, to whose province it more particularly belonged. From the reports upon their lordships' table, it appeared, that a vast number of unions of parishes had taken place in the province of Munster, not such unions as that of seven religious houses in the city of Cork, which altogether did not extend over half a mile; but of large parishes, extending over a distance of fifteen miles. In that large union, there was only one church, and that one church had been built by a private individual, the ancestor of the present lord Massey. In the province of Munster, their lordships would find instances of six, seven, and eight parishes united together, with but one church amongst them all. Now, it was impossible to expect people to remain of the Protestant religion in a place where they had no church to attend, and where they could not even procure the attendance of a clergyman in cases of emergency. He bad been told, that no curate had been seen in the parish of Kilbennie for several years, and that the inhabitants were therefore obliged, when they required the performance of any religious office, to send to the rector of another parish five or six miles off. He did not mean, by making these observations, to say any thing disrespectful of the clergy. Undoubtedly, they had done much. Many churches had been built, but they had not funds to build all that were necessary. In moving, therefore, for a commitee to consider the present state of the church in Munster, he was rather addressing himself to his majesty's ministers, in the hope of inducing them to furnish the clergy with the means of building churches, and per-
1206
The Earl of Harrowby
thought the noble earl had not laid before the House sufficient grounds to induce them to accede to his motion. He had moved for a committee, while the very papers which he held in his hands would, if examined, have afforded an answer thereto. There could be little doubt, that in some cases these unions of parishes had been a great evil; but he did not think that observation could be properly made of those unions which had been effected under episcopal authority, and which must, therefore, be supposed to have been made on good consideration. It was said, that many of these unions were without a single church, and blame had been attributed to the government on that account. Now, the fact was, that the government were not at all insensible to the evils of which the noble earl had complained. That they were not insensible to these evils, might be proved by the single fact, that in the twenty years preceding 1822,175 churches had been built in the province of Munster, and 122 glebe houses had been given. In the particular case to which the noble earl had alluded, the vicar was not resident, but the curate had always attended. These returns contained all the information that the noble earl could acquire, even if the committee were granted; and for himself he must say, that he thought the granting of a committee would be casting an undeserved slur on the dignitaries of the church of Ireland.
The Bishop of Ferns
thought himself bound, as the clerical representative of that part of the kingdom, to say a few words on this subject. He should call on the House to exercise all their indulgence towards him, for he was not much accustomed to addressing public bodies on any subject, and on this subject par-
1207
1208
The Earl of Kingston
insisted that he had made out a case to justify his motion, and that the circumstances stated by the right rev. prelate proved it. He knew a district in the South of Ireland, through which one might travel along the high road for a distance of twenty-two miles without seeing a single church. Although, however, he was satisfied that he had fully made out a case, yet as his object in: bringing forward his motion was to point the attention of the learned prelates to the subject, he was willing to abstain from pressing it.—His lordship accordingly withdrew his motion.
HOUSE OF COMMONS.
Thursday, March 9, 1826.
SCOTCH REPRESENTATION.
Mr. Abercromby
rose to present a petition, signed by between seven and eight thousand resident householders of Edinburgh, complaining of what was most unjustly called the representation of that city. He had presented petitions of the same nature for several sessions; and each year added strength to the complaints of the petitioners. It was a peculiar fact, that six persons belonging to the town council, which enjoyed the monopoly of appointing the representatives of Edinburgh, had signed the present petition. In so doing, they had afforded an incontestable proof that their sympathy with the great mass of the inhabitants of the city, was much greater than their sympathy with the small body constituting the corporation; and none could be better qualified to form a judgment on this subject, than they who were aware of what passed within the precincts of the select few, by whom the choice of representatives was made. On the first occasion when he presented this petition, he had presented it in the firm conviction that it was founded in truth and justice; and nothing had since occurred to alter that conviction. He had likewise presented it, because he believed that the citizens of Edinburgh would prosecute it with prudence, firmness, and perseverance: in that expectation, too, he had not been disappointed. He had also presented it, because he was convinced, not only that it would be prudent and just for the House to grant the reform which
1209
Sir G. Clerk
said, that as the hon. and learned member had given notice of his intention of fixing a day for the discussion of the representative system of Scotland, he should not follow him at present into the remarks which he had made upon that subject. He should only say, that he was sorry that the learned gentleman had not presented his petition, when the representative for Edinburgh was in the House, as he could have gone more ably into the subject than he himself could do. There was, however, nothing peculiar in the representation of Edinburgh which required a particular law to cure and remedy it. The House had no more right to take away the exclusive right of election from the corporation of Edinburgh, than it had to take it away from the corporations of Bath and Portsmouth, which equally enjoyed it. Such rights were never taken away from any parties by the House, unless it was shown that they had been guilty of gross corruption in the exercise of them.
Mr. Hume
observed, that the hon. member had argued as if the existence of an abuse in one country was a sufficient excuse for the existence of another abuse in another country. He trusted that the House would take the state of the representation of Edinburgh into its immediate consideration, as nothing could be more disgraceful and unfair. The representative for that town was returned by thirty-three individuals, and not by the great mass of the property and respectability of the town. The consequence of this was, that almost every man's property in Edinburgh was disposed of, without his consent or knowledge. The government, which was making wholesome reforms in many of our institutions, could not do better than make a reform here; for no where could it be more salutary. He should be happy to see a perfect system of representation established. The interest and the honour of the country both required it, and the minister who carried such a system into
1210
Mr. Abercromby
said, that when he brought in the bill of which he had given notice, he should expect to meet with strenuous opposition from the hon. baronet. That hon. baronet was intimately connected with those who supported the system of which he complained. He now gave notice that he would, on the 13th of April, ask for leave to bring in a bill to amend and alter the representation of Edinburgh.
Sir R. Fergusson
said, he would support the bill whenever it came before the House. The system of Scotch representation, both in boroughs and counties, was highly disgraceful, and required immediate reform.
Ordered to lie on the table.
CORN LAWS.
Mr. Hume
presented a petition from the working manufacturers of Gorbals and other places, in the neighbourhood of Glasgow, praying for an alteration in the Corn laws. The hon. member observed, that although he considered the high price of corn to be almost as prejudicial to the farmer as to the manufacturer, he was not inclined to throw the ports entirely open at once. Whatever was done must be done gradually; but unless something was done, it would be impossible for the manufacturing labourers of the country to obtain subsistence for their families, at the present low rate of wages.
Mr. Curwen
said, that if permission were given to import corn into this country without restriction, the result of it would be visible in a few years, in the production of a famine.
Mr. Sumner
complained of the interlocutory mode of discussing so important a subject, which had recently been adopted in both Houses of Parliament. He thought that the petitioners had no right to complain at present of the high price of corn. Their language appeared to him very like the language of rebellion. No other construction could properly be put upon the phrase, that the bonds of society must be broken, if the Corn laws continued much longer in operation.
Mr. Bernal
thought that no such construction could be put upon the petition in common fairness. It might be that the language of the petitioners was strong; but it ought to be recollected, that they were not gifted with that temper, patience,
1211
Mr. Maberly
was surprised that petitions like the present had not been received from every manufacturing district in the country. He was, however, not surprised at the language of the petitioners. All he was astonished at was, pat similar petitions were not poured in from every manufacturing district in the Country.
Mr. Benett
condemned severely the tope of the petition, and he could only understand from it, that a threat was intended by the expression of breaking down the bonds of society. The petitioners were much deceived, if they expected that the distresses, under which they were now suffering, would be alleviated by the repeal of the Corn-laws. Whenever those laws were repealed, that repeal would be followed by a great diminution in the demand for their labour.
Mr. Hume
protested against the assumption that the petition contained any improper language, still less any thing which Could be construed into a threat. He would be the last person to justify the use of improper language; but he thought that nothing ought to deter members from presenting petitions which contained perhaps a warm, but nevertheless an honest statement of the effect which the grievances they endured bad produced on their, minds. He thought that no time could be called improper for such a purpose.
Mr. Secretary Peel
said, he could not think that any advantage could be gained by discussions like the present, which agitated a subject confessed to be one of the utmost importance, difficulty, and delicacy. He was sure that no person in, that House, wished to repress the voice of the people on any subject. The hon. gentleman thought the petition, which he had presented was a specimen of fine writing; but even he thought that they had painted their being supposed that be wished to prevent any representation of the distresses
1212
Mr. Calcraft
said, that however desirable it might be thought by the hon. gentleman to avoid discussions on these subjects, it was obviously impossible to do so; and, indeed, when it was considered that upon these occasions alone the House had an opportunity of hearing the sentiments of gentlemen who did not take any other part in the debates, it might be doubted whether it was advisable to discourage such discussions. At least they gave the country an opportunity of knowing the sentiments of members on this subject, and of ascertaining who did and who did not approve of any alteration in the law as it stood. If any evil consequences had been felt, they must be attributed solely to his majesty's ministers', and to the delay which they had occasioned in the settlement of this important question. He had understood that it was to be brought on in the course of the present session, and that the right hon. the president of the Board of Trade was to have submitted to the House his views on the subject. Ministers might have grounds for the alteration which they contemplated. He believed they were mistaken; but as the question must be decided, he thought the postponement of the discussion was extremely objectionable. At the ensuing general election, gentlemen would be called on, in almost every place, to state their opinions on this subject; and unless they knew what were the intentions of ministers, it would be impossible for them satisfactorily to answer. If the country could but once know what the government proposed to do, there would be an end of all discussion; but while they abstained from stating that, the uncertainty produced the greatest in convenience. It was not, to be sure difficult to guess from their measures what they intended to do. He had no doubt that the right hon. gentleman meant to approximate the laws relating to corn as much as possible to those which he had established en other subjects—that ha would place a protecting duty on corn,
1213
Mr. Peel
explained, that he had no wish to repress a discussion on the subject of the Corn-laws, if any argument was to be offered to the House; but when he had heard the petitioners using the terms "relentless obduracy," he had been apprehensive that a debate might arise, the tendency of which would be to produce irritation, without throwing any light on the subject which had occasioned it. With respect to the sentiments of the government on this question, he hoped the hon. gentleman would himself admit, that as a time had been fixed for its discussion, ministers would do better to reserve themselves, than to embrace the opportunity which was now offered, by the figurative petition from Gorbals.
Lord John Russell
agreed, that it would be advisable to have the question of the Corn-laws settled as soon as might be practicable; but since a delay had taken place, he hoped ministers would avail themselves of it to consider the nature and extent of the burthens which at present attached to the land. Before any alteration could be effected in the nature of the Corn-laws, those burthens must be alleviated, and the agriculturists brought upon the same footing with respect to the demands as the manufacturing classes.
Ordered to lie on the table.
1214
CONSOLIDATION OF THE CRIMINAL
Mr. Secretary Peel
rose, and said:
*
Mr. Speaker
: I hope, Sir, that the House is prepared to give me its attention, whilst I explain the object of those measures connected with the Criminal Law which I am about to submit to its consideration. To many, I fear, this subject may appear barren and uninviting. It can borrow no excitement from political feelings, nor can it awaken the hopes or fears of conflicting parties; but it involves higher interests, it concerns the security of property—the prevention of crime—the moral habits of the people—and it prefers, therefore, a just and imperative demand on the serious attention of parliament.
*From the original edition, printed for Hatchard and Son, Piccadilly.
1215
1216
1217
1218
1219
1220
1221
and for preventing the stealing or destroying of madder roots."
for the better preservation of hollies, thorns, and quicksets in forests, chases, and private grounds, and of trees and underwoods in forests and chases;
1222
1223
1224
s.
s.
1225
s.
1226
1227
1228
1229
1230
1231
1232
1233
1234
profert, or prout patet per recordam
vi et
1235
armis et contra pacem?
1236
1237
1238
1239
Sir M. W. Ridley
said, that no act of the right hon. Secretary would hand down his name to posterity with so much ho-
1240
s.
d.
Mr. N. Calvert
said, he had never heard a proposition which gave him more unfeigned pleasure than the one just submitted to the House. But he wished to mention one important subject, which well deserved the attention of the right hon. gentleman. Throughout the country were to be seen asylums, penitentiaries, &c. for the reception of persons convicted of minor offences. If a man abstained from committing a felony, he might be all his life in the commission of misdemeanors and minor offences of every kind. The only punishment he underwent was, imprisonment in one of those receptacles, from which he came out worse than when he entered, and was allowed to recur to old habits and corrupt new associates. The great mischief was that of allowing the offenders to remain in this country. In his opinion, every person convicted of felony should be transported for life, and the gradation of punishment should be acted on in the place where the party was sent to. Such a mode of punishment would, in the first place, enable the criminal himself to contract moral habits, and would, in the next
1241
Sir R. Wilson
highly approved of the proposed measure, but wished to call the attention of the right hon. gentleman to a species of offence which harrowed up the feelings and destroyed the happiness of so many. He alluded to the crime of child-stealing. At present, a person might steal a child with impunity, the law punishing only for the robbery of the clothes. He trusted that such an outrage upon humanity and reason would be got rid of.
Mr. Dickinson
considered the speech of the right hon. Secretary the most luminous statement he had ever heard. As to the expenses of public prosecutions, they ought to be defrayed out of some particular fund. They fell at present on landed property, which was unable to bear further burthens.
Mr. C. Wilson
was anxious to add his voice to the general expression of approbation bestowed on the clear and able speech of the right hon. Secretary. He thought the expenses of prosecutions for assaults on officers in the discharge of their duty ought to be paid by the government.
Mr. Lockhart
expressed his concurrence with the House in their approbation of the measure of the right hon. Secretary. There was, he said, an absurd law, which prevented a prisoner from reading or seeing the indictment on which he was to be tried. That law ought to be repealed. He agreed with the right hon. gentleman, that we ought not to have an unconstitutional or preventive police, such as they had on the continent; but a strong protective police was a useful body. The old magisterial office of constable, when properly exercised, did much good. There still existed a similar officer in Germany, who possessed the power of detaining offenders for a day or night, until they were brought to a regular examination. We ought to have some such officer in England. It appeared that in the metropolis crime had not increased, but that in the country it had nearly doubled. Now, what was the difference to be attributed to, except the residence of an active police in the metropolis? Those straggling places in the country where the population was very great, and
1242
Mr. Abercromby
entirely concurred in the tribute of praise which had been paid to the speech of the right hon. gentleman. He considered the subject to be one of great importance, and sufficient to engage the attention of the greatest mind. In the general proposition laid down by the right hon. Secretary he fully agreed. No one, indeed, could deny that the law ought to be made accessible to all. He wished to express his great satisfaction at having lived to see the day when a minister of the Crown had risen in his place to declare his opinion, that the criminal law of the realm needed revision. Many members must recollect the difficulties which an hon. and learned friend of his had to encounter when he endeavoured to alter the criminal law. He had been told that it was presumption to attempt it. Upon the suggestion of that distinguished person, the House did, indeed, recognize the principle, that promptitude and certainty were essential requisites in the law. He entreated the right hon. gentleman to ask himself whether, the mere announcement of this measure did not proclaim the defects of the law; and he called upon him to prosecute still further his amendments of it. The right hon. gentleman had stated, that 8,000 persons had been convicted of capital crimes within seven years. He felt a desire, when this statement was made, to interrupt the right hon. gentleman with an inquiry as to how many of this number had been executed; for if that statement went forth, and it was believed that all the 8,000 had been executed, there would arise a most unjust and unfounded prejudice against the law of this country. He attributed a great proportion of the increased crime in the agricultural districts, to the operation of the game-laws. He trusted that the right hon. gentleman would keep those laws uppermost in his mind; and that some alteration in them, ere long, would add to the benefits which, by his jury-bill, as well as by the measure now before the House, the right hon. gentleman had conferred upon the country.
Sir J. Sebright
also thought that the increase of crime in the country was at-
1243
Mr. Sykes
said, he trusted that the remedy before them for acknowledged evils would be found efficient. He was glad to hear that the law which so cruelly punished a boy for stealing an apple was to be revised. It was ridiculous to punish so trivial an offence in so severe a manner. He thought there were very few members of that House who had not been guilty of it. With regard to the matter of costs, they ought to be particularly cautious how they trusted magistrates with a discretionary power of that kind over the county rates. He meant particularly magistrates of towns who had large personal property, but which was not subject to the county rate. There were other ways in which the costs might be defrayed. In misdemeanors, for example, the punishment was fine and imprisonment. Now, could it not be so arranged, that magistrates should have the power of giving part, or all of the fine to the prosecutor?
Sir G. Chetwynd
approved of the measure, but objected to the expense likely to be cast upon each county by the prosecutions for assaults and certain other offences. He was aware that this was a serious charge upon individuals, but he nevertheless hoped that the right hon. gentleman would be cautious in adding this burthen to the county rates. He was surprised to hear an hon. member state that there was no specific mode of punishing persons guilty of child-stealing, otherwise than by prosecuting the parties for stealing the clothes. The fact was, that the act of the 34th of George 3rd, c. 101, made the stealing of children a grand larceny.
Mr. Estcourt
thought it was a mistake to attribute the increase of crime in the country to the operation of the game-laws. He rather looked for the cause of that increase in the poverty and privation endured by the lower classes. With respect to the payment of costs upon prosecutions for misdemeanor, he agreed in the principle, but thought the expense should be defrayed, not out of the county rate, which touched only one description of property, but out of the general taxation of the country.
Mr. Alderman Brydges
suggested that
1244
Mr. Secretary Peel
protested that he did not know how to frame an act of parliament which would prevent children from running about the streets; but any suggestion from the hon. member to that effect he should attend to with great pleasure. The provisions of his measure generally he wished to have thoroughly canvassed, and should feel obliged to any hon. gentleman who would take the trouble to suggest alterations in it. There was one alteration in the law relative to estreating recognizances which he should deem it peculiarly important to make as soon as possible. Nothing was more common than for persons who were bound over to appear as witnesses, upon prosecutions, and not called in court, to be actually arrested, perhaps years afterwards, owing to some error as to their appearance or non-appearance. As an instance of this vexatious practice, the right hon. gentleman stated the contents of a petition which he had just received from a prisoner in Shrewsbury gaol, who had been arrested on the estreating of his recognizances for a prosecution in the year 1818, he having been present in court while the trial went on, but not having been called as a witness. With respect to the payment of costs in cases of misdemeanor at sessions, he believed that they would be far lighter in amount if paid out of the county-rate than out of the general funds of the country. He had observed that all expenses allowed at sessions by magistrates who had an immediate desire to keep the county expenses down, were much lighter than those given by the judges of assize.
Leave was given to bring in the bill.
STEAM VESSELS IN SCOTLAND.
The Lord Advocate
rose to move for leave to bring in a bill to regulate vessels navigated by Steam in Scotland. The object of his bill was, he said, to prevent accidents, and to take care that the persons appointed to navigate Steam-vessels should be properly qualified, that the vessels should undergo examination, and be obliged to carry lights, and that in navigating them, they should follow the same rule as those observed by carriages in the streets.
1245
Mr. Hume
said, he would not directly oppose the bill, but he had great doubts of the utility of it. It was brought on in consequence of some recent accidents, which every one must lament; but he did not approve of the system of legislating upon particular events. The public might be left, he thought, to take care of itself. People would choose their steam-packets as they chose other conveniences that they wanted, and would take those which had the best reputation for safety.
Sir H. Parnell
had strong doubts of the propriety of such a bill as this. Unless the learned lord could show that there was a necessity for the measure, it would be better not to interfere. In consequence of some accidents which happened between Liverpool and Dublin some years ago, a bill containing regulations of this sort requiring inspection, &c. was enacted; but the law was altogether neglected. A law of this sort was as applicable to stage coaches as to steam-vessels.
Sir E. Harvey
said, that if the bill was brought in, it ought to be general. It was as much wanted in other parts of the kingdom as it was in Scotland.
Mr. Sykes
objected to any bill of this sort proposing intricate regulations, which it would be impossible to carry into effect. It would be better to leave the conduct of the captain free, and not to interfere with him.
The Lord Advocate
said, that the object of the bill was' to establish public rules for the regulation of steam vessels. Had those regulations been in existence a year ago, the accident in October last could not have occurred.
Sir J. Newport
would object to the motion. If the people of Scotland were not to be trusted with the management of their own steam-boats in their own way, it would be much better to introduce a bill to prevent them from using them altogether.
Sir C. Cole
hoped, if any enactment were deemed necessary, that it would be applicable to all parts of the empire. The best regulation that could be suggested was that which prevailed in the royal navy, in which, by given signals, each ship knew on which side of the other it ought to pass. Had that principle obtained, the fatal accident alluded to could not have happened.
Mr. Secretary Canning
hoped that hon.
1246
Mr. Hume
strongly urged the learned lord to withdraw his bill.
Mr. Hobhouse
trusted that the learned lord would withdraw his bill. The people of Scotland would not thank him for this interference. He might just as well bring in a bill to prohibit them from navigating by steam.
The House divided: For bringing in the bill 70; Against it 26: Majority 44.
LOCAL JURISDICTIONS IN IRELAND.
Mr. S. Rice
Mr. Goulburn
had no immediate objection to the motion, but reserved his right on the introduction and discussion of the bill to suggest any curtailments, or to offer any clauses which he might deem necessary to prevent the infringement upon chartered rights and privileges of corporations.
Mr. Hutchinson
hoped that the bill would be printed before it was discussed and that it would be sent over to Ireland, and ample time allowed for the statement of objections to it on the part of bodies interested.
Mr. R. Martin
said, that he looked on this bill as a great improvement in the laws of Ireland. It would go to cure, the abuses that were obvious to all; such as the registration of freeholds. He knew some counties and towns, in which freeholds were kept unregistered for years.
Mr. Frankland Lewis
thought the measure ought not to be confined to Ireland. As a general principle of legislation, it was capable of being applied to many parts of this country with advantage. At the same time it was a question not free from difficulty, and he hoped no steps, would be taken but upon mature consideration and certain information. The greatest difficulty would be to provide a
1247
Mr. Warre
concurred in the sentiments of the lion, gentleman, and advised that some steps should be taken for reforming local jurisdictions in England as well as in Ireland.
Leave was given to bring in the bill.
NON-RESIDENT BURGESSES IN IRELAND.
Sir John Newport
rose, to move for leave to bring in a bill to repeal the act of 21 Geo. 2nd, chap. 10, sec. 8 (Irish statutes), commonly called the Newtown act. In that act there was a clause for regulating the election of members of parliament in Ireland, in which it was provided, that in any borough or town corporate, not being a city, in which a number of resident Protestants, sufficient for the purposes of that act, did not exist, the right of voting should be extended to, and exercised by Protestants non-resident therein. In the year 1780, by a most beneficial statute, one of the clauses of this act was utterly done away with. By a-strange misconception the Test act was still supposed to be in force in Ireland; and he remembered, in the year 1810, that one of the cabinet ministers had told him, that his principal objection to Catholic emancipation was the Test act, although that act bad been done away with in the year 1793, just seventeen years before. In the year 1793, the legislature, acting on a more liberal scale of policy with respect to the interests of Ireland than had been formerly adopted, repealed many of the laws that shackled the energies of the country, and, among others, the law was repealed by which Catholics were prevented from voting, at elections for the return of members to serve in parliament. By this measure the Catholic freeholders of Ireland were allowed to participate in the privileges enjoyed by their Protestant fellow-subjects. Much had certainly been done for Ireland by the repeal of obnoxious statutes; but much remained to do before the Statute-book could be freed from nanny existing laws (the remnants
1248
Mr. Goulburn
said, he was sure that it was quite unnecessary for the right hon. baronet to disclaim interested motives, in bringing forward the present motion. He of all other men would be the last on whom an imputation of the kind would fairly rest. Yet, while he fully acquitted him of interested motives, ho could not concur with him in the views which he had taken on the subject under consideration. He did not conceive that the measure proposed would be attended with the benefits which were anticipated. On the contrary, he foresaw considerable inconvenience in it. The proposition of the right hon. baronet rested on one single
1249
1250
Mr. Spring Rice
supported the motion of his right hon. friend. He thought the right hon. secretary for Ireland had misstated both the fact and the law.
Mr. Plunkett
said, he should not discharge his duty by giving a silent vote upon the present occasion; the more especially as he felt himself bound to oppose the motion. He did not believe that his right hon. friend had been guilty of any mis-statement, either in point of fact or of law. The question here was not between the charters, which required residence, and the 21st Geo. 2nd, which dispensed with residence, but it was a question between the act of Henry 7th, and the act of the 21st of Geo. 2nd. The act of Henry 7th required, that all freemen of cities and great towns should be residents; and the charters applied the provisions of that act to all boroughs; but the inconvenience was so great, that the legislature felt it necessary to do away with a restriction which, in their opinion at least, was unconstitutional; for the provision in the charters which, by the measure now proposed, it was intended to confirms was not an extension, but a restriction of the elective franchise. He did not hesitate to say, that many of the charters of James 1st were not, to say the least of them, favourable to the principles of the constitution; for in several of them the principle of restriction was applied to the elected as well as to the elector, and, in more cases than one, such restriction had been held to be unconstitutional. He did not mean now to discuss that principle, but it was sufficient for his purpose, that the legislature, in the time of George 2nd, had thought fit to repeal that restriction, as it applied to boroughs and corporate towns, and that that act had remained in force now nearly seventy years. The measure now proposed was not prospective, but, on the contrary, would have a retrospective operation, and would bear upon individuals who had for years been in possession of the elective franchise. The act of George 2nd declared that no person elected, to, or voting for, a candidate for any office in
1251
Mr. R. Martin
ventured to remind the right hon. secretary for Ireland of the his-
1252
1253
Mr. Hutchinson
said, he would not offer any objection to the introduction of the bill, and to have it printed, in order to give an opportunity to those persons whose interests might be affected by it of seeing what were its provisions. At the same time that he did this out of respect to his right hon. friend, he would not conceal his opinion that the principle upon which the bill proceeded was highly objectionable. He thought that no existing interests ought to be interfered with, without giving to all the parties concerned the fullest opportunity of being heard on the subject.
Sir J. Newport
said, he had heard no arguments which could induce him to withdraw his motion, and as he was convinced of the utility of the measure, he would take the sense of the House on it.
The House then divided: Ayes 38; Noes 76.
EPISCOPAL UNIONS IN IRELAND.
Sir John Newport
rose to move for leave to bring in a bill to prevent Episcopal Unions in Ireland, and to restrain the granting of Dispensations. The bill, he observed, would secure to the Irish people the residence of their clergy in the parishes to which they were attached, and would restrain archbishops and bishops from making unions of parishes, for the purpose of providing for some of their friends in the church. The extent to which this power was carried would surprise the House; but he would not now enter into any of the details. There was one instance in which a bishop had united six parishes in one county with one situated in another; so that it was certain the clergyman could not be a resident where he might be most required. He would mention only another case, which was stated last year in the House by the hon. member for Louth; that a parish producing an income of 500
l.
l.,
l.,
l.,
1254
l.
Mr. Goulburn
said, that he had himself prepared a measure on the subject, but he would not object to the introduction of the right hon. baronet's bill. He was glad to find that in some of the points he had the concurrence of the right hon. baronet. But in assenting to the introduction of this bill, he did not wish to be understood as pledging himself to support that part of the measure which related to pluralities.
Leave was given to bring in the bill.
PRIVATE BILLS COMMITTEES.
Mr. Littleton
rose for the purpose of redeeming the pledge he had given last session, to submit some resolutions on the subject of the formation of Committees on Private Bills. The House were aware that a committee was appointed on this subject in the last session, and had made a report, and some resolutions were founded on that report and printed; but, owing to the late period of the session, those resolutions had not been disposed of. He was glad the delay had taken place, because, upon, a more mature consideration of the subject, he found that one of the resolutions which he then intended to propose would not be so practicable as another course which had been since suggested to him. The House were aware that there were two committees necessary on a private bill. The first was on the petition for leave to bring in the bill, which had to examine whether the usual standing orders had been complied with, and whether all the parties interested had received due notice. In this committee, though its inquiries were only as to certain matters of form, it often happened that there was as much effort made by parties on both sides, as there was afterwards in the committee on the bill itself. The lists of counties
1255
1256
1. "That the present distribution of counties, for the purpose of forming Committees on Private bills, prepared under the direction of the Speaker some years ago, has, from the great inequality of the numbers of members contained in each list, and from other causes, been found ill suited to the object for which it was framed:
2. "That, with a view more nearly to equalize numbers, and to correct too strong a prevalence of local interests on committees on private bills, it is expedient that a new distribution of counties should be made, containing in each list, as nearly as may be, one hundred and twenty members; one half only, or thereabouts, to be taken from the county immediately connected with the object of the bill, and the adjoining counties; and the other half from other counties of Great Britain and Ireland; and that the members serving for such counties should constitute the committee on each bill:
3. "That Mr. Speaker be requested to direct a new distribution of counties to be prepared at the commencement of each session, in such manner as shall be approved-of by him, conformably to the principle of the foregoing resolution:
1257
4. "That every committee on a private bill be required to report to the House the bill referred to it, with the evidence and minutes of the proceedings:
5. "That a committee be appointed at the commencement of every session of parliament, to be called the committee of appeals upon private bills, which committee shall consist of all the knights of the shire, all the members for cities, and such other members as may be named therein; so that the whole number appointed to serve upon such committee shall amount to two hundred at least:
6. "That where any party interested in a private bill, who shall have petitioned the House, and shall have appeared in support of his petition, by himself, his counsel, or agent, in the committee upon such bill, or where the promoters of a private bill shall be dissatisfied with any vote of the committee upon such bill, and shall petition the House, setting forth the particular vote or votes objected to, and praying that they may be heard by themselves, their counsel, or agent, against such vote or votes, such petition shall, together with the report of the committee upon the bill, and the minutes and evidence taken before such committees, be referred to a select committee of seven members of the House, to be chosen by ballot from the committee of appeals upon private bills, which select committee shall hear the arguments of the parties complaining of, and also of the parties supporting, such vote or votes, and shall report their opinion thereon to the House:
7. "That whenever a petition shall be presented, complaining of any vote of a committee upon a private bill, the House will fix a day whereon to ballot for a select committee, to whom such petition shall be referred, upon which day, at a quarter past four o'clock, or as near thereto as the question which may be then before the House will permit, the Speaker shall order the doors of the House to be locked, and the names of the members composing the committee of appeals upon private bills being written upon separate pieces of paper, and put into the glass, the clerk shall draw there from the names, until seven members of such committee, who shall be then present, and who shall not have voted in the committee upon the private bill to which the petition refers, shall have answered to their names, which seven members shall be the select committee to whom such
1258
8. "That no member of such select committee shall absent himself therefrom during its sitting:
9. "That such select committee shall, if they think fit, after the hearing of such argument, order the party or parties complaining to pay the whole or any part of the costs attending the same, or the party or parties defending such vote or votes:
10. "That the party or parties complaining shall, previously to the ballotting for such select committee, enter into recognizances, him, her, or themselves, in the sum of 100
l.,
l.
Lord A. Hamilton
did not mean to offer any objection to the resolutions; but, as he understood the hon. member, the committee of appeal would rather have to try the merits of the former committee, than to decide on the question which had been the subject of the private bill. If this were so, he thought it would be attended with inconvenience. He gave his thanks to the hon. member for introducing these resolutions, because there were opinions in the public mind highly prejudicial to the character of committees on private bills.
Mr. S. Wortley
could not deny, that there had been instances in which these committees had been guilty of injustice; but, generally speaking, they had done their duty ably and impartially.
The resolutions were ordered to be printed, and the debate upon them was adjourned to Wednesday.
BANK CHARTER AMENDMENT BILL.
Mr. Lushington
Mr. J. Smith
would not agree to suffer this bill to advance a single stage without offering it his opposition. A bill more absurd or ill-digested had never been introduced into that House. It was impossible it could pass in its present form.
Mr. Hume
agreed with his hon. friend, that it was impossible the bill should pass
1259
Mr. Hudson Gurney
said, that being favourable to the objects of the bill, he would not oppose the second reading; but it was obvious that it must undergo a total change in the committee, or be entirely inoperative; as, in its present shape, no parties could possibly act under its provisions. In fact, it was a mere copy of the Irish act of the last session, as garbled to meet the petty-fogging jealousies of the Bank of Ireland. It could not be conceived that such clauses could have originated with a great corporation like the Bank of England. These must necessarily be amended. To the principle of the measure, he repeated, he was entirely friendly.
The bill was then read a second time.
HOUSE OF COMMONS.
Friday, March 10, 1826.
STATE OF EXCHEQUER BILLS, AND
The Chancellor of the Exchequer
Mr. Maberly
rose to address the House. He began by observing that, though he had heard a great deal lately of the mischief arising from overtrading, he had not heard it stated that the right hon. gentleman opposite had taken any pact, in producing, any of the inconve-
1260
l.
1261
l.
l.
l.
l.
s.
s.
s.
l.
l.,
l.
1262
l.
l.
l.
1263
l.
l.
l.
s.
d.
s.
s.
1264
l.
s.
d.
l.
l.
1265
l.
l.
l.
l.
l.
1266
l.
l.
l.
l.
l.
l.
l.,
l.
1267
l.
l.
1268
l.
l.,
l.
l.
l.
l.
l.
l.
1269
1270
l.
l.
l.
l,
1271
l.
l.
l.
s.
d.,
l.
Mr. Herries
rose, and expressed his intention of detaining the House but for a short time in answering the observations of the hon. member for Abingdon. The hon. member had confined his speech to two points. In the first, he took a retrospective view of the conduct of government with respect to the unfunded debt; and in the other, he had alluded, with no small condemnation, to the manner in which the government had managed the funded debt. The hon. member had accused the government of confusion in making up the accounts of the funded debt. The confusion existed only in the ideas of the honourable member; and greater confusion than prevailed there he had never known. The hon. member, some time ago, had called for a paper, to show the state of the funded debt, which the House ordered to be produced. The hon. member had directed, that in that paper an estimate should be made of the total value of the annuity of 2,800,000
l.
1272
l.
l.
l.
l.
l.,
l.,
l.
1273
l.
l.
l.
l.
l.
l.
l.
l.
l.
1274
Mr. Baring
said, he fully concurred in what had fallen from the hon. gentleman, that it would not be proper to enter into any discussion upon the present occasion, which could have the effect of anticipating the statement of the chancellor of the Exchequer. For that statement the public were waiting with the utmost anxiety. The trade, the credit, and the circulation of the country, would depend, in a great measure, upon the disclosures of the right hon. gentleman, and he would regret if he should be drawn into it prematurely. The question they had now to consider Was the unfunded debt. He fully agreed with the hon. gentleman, that it would be acting in rather an unusual way to place upon the Journals the long resolution proposed by the hon. member for Abingdon, until the House had first heard what the chancellor of the Exchequer meant to bring forward. He felt very anxious to know what were the intentions of the right hon. gentleman with respect to the unfunded debt; but as he would in all probability explain his views relative to it on Monday, it would be inconvenient to press him into it at present. If the House should be of opinion that the plans of the right hon. gentleman were such as ought not to be adopted, then would be the time for his hon. friend to come forward with his resolutions. With respect to the amount of unfunded debt, it might be too much or too little, at any particular time, according to circumstances. At one time, forty millions might circulate without inconvenience; while, at another time, it would be considerably too much. The propriety or impropriety, therefore, of any particular amount depended entirely upon circumstances. He differed entirely however from the hon. gentleman opposite
1275
l.
l.,
l.
1276
1277
l.,
l.
l.
l.
l.
1278
l.
The Chancellor of the Exchequer
said, he did not feel it necessary to detain the House by making a long reply. As the subject was to be discussed on Monday, discussion now would tend to confuse the matter, as much as the papers moved? for by the hon. member for Abingdon would confound the question to which they related. He had one or two remarks to make on the statement of the hon. member for Taunton, respecting the reduction of the unfunded debt, to satisfy the House that no blame was imputable to government, He conceived that he was not called upon to go into a review of the financial operations of the last tea years, and to inquire whether the government ought, at any given period, to have funded Exchequer-bills, and reduced the amount of the unfunded debt. He would; say, however, that great efforts were made for that object. If the hon. gentleman had gone as far back as the year 1816, he would have found that on the 5th of
1279
l.
l.,
s.
s.
1280
l.
l.
l.
l.
l.
1281
Mr. Hume
said, that the observations of the right hon. gentleman had not at all met the statements of his hon. friend, the member for Abingdon. His hon. friend's accounts had been characterized as confused and fallacious; but none of the fallacy or confusion had as yet been proved. Now, if a man, calculating the full extent of all he owed in the world in the year 1819, found it amount to 20,000
l.,
l.
l.
1282
l.
l.
l.
l.
l.
l.,
l.
l.
l.
l.
l.
l.
l.,
l.
l.
s.
l.
s.
l,
l.,
l.
l.
s.
l.
l.
l.
l.
1283
l.
l.
l.
l.
l.,
Mr. Maberly
said, that having heard what he had, he should not press the motion to a division.
The amendment was then put, and negatived.
EVACUATION OF SPAIN BY THE
Sir R. Wilson,
seeing the right hon. Secretary for Foreign Affairs in his place, would take the opportunity of asking a question which concerned the honour, the interest, and, ultimately, the security of the country. Last year, the
1284
Mr. Secretary Canning
felt ready to give the hon. member for Southwark every satisfaction in his power; but he must be aware that it was unlikely for him to have any particular information as to time. He had not, however, the least hesitation in saying, that the hon. member himself could not be more anxious to see the French army out of Spain than was the French government to withdraw it. It had unfortunately happened that several partial attacks had been made upon the established order of things in Spain, which had been equally mischievous, useless, and unprofitable. This had obliged the French troops to be kept there longer than was originally intended; but he was completely convinced, that the French government were as anxious to withdraw their troops from Spain as the hon. member was that they should be so withdrawn.
ARMY EXTRAORDINARIES—MISCELLANEOUS ESTIMATES, &c.
The House having resolved itself into a Committee of Supply, Mr. Herries moved, "That 376,769
l.
Mr. Hume
complained, that this charge was annually increasing. In 1822 it had been lowered, but since that, the House had retrograded; and they had now absolutely come back to a charge as great as that of 1821. But this applied equally to every branch connected with the army. In consequence of reductions that were made in the army in 1821 and 1822, the House had allowed the pension-list to be increased to the amount of at least 500,000
l.
1285
Mr. Herries
said, that the difference of the expenditure in the commissariat department, between the present and the preceding year, arose almost entirely from the increased price of provisions; bread, meat, and forage, had all advanced in price during the last two years. The expenditure in this department for 1825 was considerably beyond that of the three preceding years. The sum voted for that year did not cover the expense; and the estimate of the present year was formed on the actual expense incurred in 1825. As to the commissariat staff on foreign stations, particularly at Canada and the Cape, the number was not greater than the business required. By reducing the number, they would incur an additional expense, instead of effecting a saving, Every reduction that could possibly be made in this department had been made. But it should be observed, that various duties connected with the disbursement of money for the service of government were performed by the officers of this department; which, if not executed by them, must be performed by others; and this circumstance, he conceived, would satisfactorily account for the increase to which the hon. member had adverted. The number had, at one time, been considerably reduced: but in consequence of a representation from the commander of the forces, backed by many individuals perfectly qualified to give advice on this subject, it was thought proper to increase this useful body. It was not, however, brought back to its former amount, but was so far enlarged as to make it sufficient for the performance of all its duties. Those duties were various and important. In Canada a larger number were necessary than elsewhere, on account of the out-stations; and at times they had the charge of considerable sums of the pub-
1286
Mr. Hutchinson
begged to call the serious attention of ministers to this subject. The declaration of the Secretary to the Treasury was, that in consequence of the certain mortality at Sierra Leone, it was necessary to send out two officers to each appointment. He was quite aware of the value of colonies to a great empire; but surely Great Britain had foreign possessions enough, without clinging with such pertinacity to a settlement which was the destruction of all the British subjects sent out to it. It seemed to him quite abominable, that an hon. gentleman, himself high in office, and surrounded by the king's ministers, should venture to make a statement, which only showed that government was actuated by little less than infatuation, in thus despatching men to their graves on the coast of Africa. He spoke from no impulse of opposition, but from a strong feeling of humanity, and a desire to save the valuable lives of the king's subjects. Ministers would have to account to God and their country, for this wanton waste of human existence. If Sierra Leone could not be abandoned without serious detriment, there might be some excuse for keeping it. He called upon ministers to give some hope that this fatal colony would be relinquished, and left to the possession of the deadly maladies by which it was infested.
Mr. Wilmot Horton
said, that any person who believed the colony in question to be preserved in consequence of an abstract love of colonization, took a very narrow view of the question. It should be recollected, that the possession of this colony was connected with one of the most solemn acts ever agreed to by parliament. It ought to be recollected that the possession of this colony was considered essential to the carrying into effect that great and most humane object, the abolition of negro slavery. If they gave up that place to-morrow, they would undo much of what they had previously done for the purpose of destroying the traffic in slaves. Let it not be forgotten, that there were at the present moment 18,000 liberated Africans in Sierra Leone. He regretted as much as any man the loss
1287
Mr. Bernal
said, that there were two questions connected with Sierra Leone; first, as to the trade that could be carried on there; and next, whether, if that place were abandoned, another situation could be found equally well calculated for checking the slave trade; Fernando Po, for instance. At present, an enormous expense was incurred by this country in its endeavours to put an end to that traffic; and he was sorry to say, that though this government was actuated by a sincere feeling to do away with the slave-trade, it was carried on by foreign powers, under circumstances of accumulated horror and oppression. If he were rightly informed, the representations made to the French government by the British ambassador at Paris on this subject, did not meet with that attention which they deserved. Here they were, year after year, expending large sums of money, and devising what appeared to be the best means for suppressing the slave-trade; and what happened after all their exertions? Why, they found that trade carried on, without regulation and without mitigation, by those very powers who had been paid to give it up. In fact, all their efforts appeared to have given silent encouragement to this shameful trade.
Mr. Secretary Canning
assured the House, that there had appeared, on the part of the French government, a sincere desire to carry into effect the provisions which had been entered into, and the assurances which had been given, relative to the abolition of the slave trade. He begged leave to state one fact, as a proof of the sincerity of the French government. About a fortnight ago information had been received that slave-ships were then fitting out at Nantes. The fact was brought home decidedly, and the conse-
1288
Mr. Evans
said, that they heard much of the loss and waste of human life at Sierra Leone in preventing slavery; but there was no mention at all of the excessive waste of life incurred in supporting slavery in the West Indies.
Mr. Hume
said, that they had the evidence of sir G. Collier, and all the practical men who had been there, to show that the situation of Sierra Leone was one which was not at all adapted to the humane purpose of the abolitionists. Messrs. Macaulay and Co. had made a bad choice of their head-quarters. It would turn out that they had effected the reverse of their intentions. There was no hope of improving, much less of civilizing Africa by that settlement. They had the evidence of major Laing, who had gone fifty miles into the interior only two years ago; he asserted that he was the first European ever seen so far in the country. The uselessness of a colony which had cost 1,800,000
l.
Mr. Wilmot Horton
believed that no measure—not even a blockade through the whole line of coast—could effect the abolition of the trade, so long as slavery existed. He did not think that the hon. member for Aberdeen stated the subject fairly by putting it in comparative views of expense. It might be unprofitable to keep an establishment at Sierra Leone, but the question was as to its usefulness. In this view there could be no doubt in any mind after duly considering the cir-
1289
Mr. Sykes
could not say whether his hon. friend included him in the firm of Macauley and Co. but he could assure him, that he agreed with them as to the necessity of putting an end to slavery. It was on the recommendation of Mr. Wilber-force that this colony was first established, and such a measure could only have been suggested by the most praiseworthy motives. In exclaiming against the expense and loss of lives in this colony, it was singular that no allusion was made to other colonies liable to the same objection, established to continue the slave trade. What had been the state of our own colonies in the West Indies I In 1796, when a large force was sent to the West Indies, almost one half of the soldiers, at least of the officers, had died. He certainly lamented that mortality, as well as that of Sierra Leone; but, considering the latter station as settled for purposes of the highest benevolence, he could not refuse to vote for this item of expenditure.
Mr. Carus Wilson
would not say whether Sierra Leone was the best situation that could have been chosen; but the experiment had at least proved, that persons of the African race and colour might be brought into a state of social and civilized life. This, under all the circumstances, was an important fact established; and he had no hesitation in voting for the grant.
l.
Mr. Hume
wished to know why there was an increase in these estimates for the present year.
Mr. Wilmot Horton
said, it was owing to various expenses necessarily incurred by the increase of business in the foreign and colonial offices particularly. The salary of the colonial counsel was in-
1290
l.
l.
Mr. Hume
took that opportunity of denying that the increased expense was incurred in preparing returns by order of this House; but the fact was, that the government kept governors at the Cape of Good Hope and other colonies, against whom so many complaints were made, that nearly the whole time of the persons engaged in the colonial departments was occupied in examining those complaints. The only way to save that expense would be, to call home every governor, whatever might be his rank or family, against whom complaints had been frequently made.
Mr. Wilmot Horton
said, that nothing could be more easy for the hon. gentleman than to make such declarations, and nothing more easy for himself than to say, that there was not in that declaration a word of truth. He could not concur in the opinion of the hon. member, that every governor against whom complaint might be made, ought to be turned off at once. He thought the proper course would be, when a complaint was made, to institute inquiry; and such inquiries had, upon many occasions, been instituted. Was it likely that any member of his majesty's government, liable as they were to public opinion, and the opinion of parliament, would wish to support a governor, who had by misconduct forfeited the confidence of the country? He did not stand up to justify the conduct of governors, or to say that no governor had done any thing which would justify inquiry, or perhaps removal, but he thought no government would be justified in removing a governor, in consequence of complaints which might be made against him, without having previously instituted an inquiry; and he was ready to admit that the inquiry ought to take place as soon as the nature of the circumstances would admit. Were there not proceedings now pending of that very nature f He denied that any unnecessary expense had been incurred in the government of the colonies. When the committee considered that we had no less than thirty-four scattered up and down in different parts of the world, they would be convinced that no small expense must be in-
1291
l.
Mr. Hume
replied, that he was unjustly accused of indulging in sweeping charges. How often had he called for inquiry respecting the Ionian Islands? And, for the last five years, had he not pressed on the government the necessity of instituting investigations respecting the Cape of Good Hope? But, what did the government do? Instead of taking the part of the colonists, and listening to their complaints, they always took part with the governors against the colonists. He was not for the dismission of any man from office without inquiry; but when complaints were made, and in a manner that merited attention, he would have the government institute inquiry, and act decidedly on the result of such inquiry.
Mr. Secretary Canning
admitted that every well-founded complaint ought to
1292
The resolution was agreed to.
MUTINY BILL—PUNISHMENT OF
The House having resolved itself into a committee on the Mutiny bill,
Mr. Hume
rose for the purpose of submitting a clause for the abolition of a practice which had long existed in the army of this country—he meant the punishment of flogging the soldiery. He was aware that on this occasion he should have to encounter the prejudices of many hon. members who were officers in the army, and who, from being in the habit of witnessing such punishments frequently, did not entertain the same feelings of the propriety of its abolition that might be supposed to actuate other men. However; he did hope that they would give the subject a calm consideration, and if it should be made to appear that any other mode of punishment would be equally effectual, that they would consent to its abolition. The evil of flogging did not consist merely in the bodily torture inflicted on the individual who was thus punished; it had also the bad effect of rendering those who were obliged to witness such scenes more callous and indifferent lo their duties than before. It had precisely this effect upon the persons punished; and he might appeal to the ex-
1293
1294
1295
Mr. J. Smith
said, that he did not think the present moment a proper one for the discussion of a question of such vast importance. The principle of the resolutions he concurred in to its full extent, and would continue to support, as long as he had a seat in that House. But he did think that, instead of being thus introduced, the question should be made the subject of a specific motion, as it had been when formerly introduced by an hon. baronet (sir F. Burdett), whom he did not then see in his place, and to whose humane exertions might be attributed the improvement which had already been made in our military discipline on this point. If a specific motion were made on the subject, the whole of the facts connected with it might be brought before the House in detail; and then he
1296
1297
Sir R. Fergusson
suggested, that the chairman should report progress, and the hon. member might bring on his motion at a future day, on bringing up the report.
Sir J. Brydges
gave his entire concurrence to tile-resolutions; because he was convinced that the system of flogging in the army was improper, and ought to be abolished. It was improper, because every man knew that honour was the essence of a soldier's profession; and when
1298
Sir G. Murray
thought it rather unfair in the hon. member for Aberdeen to charge officers with want of feeling, because they were frequently obliged to witness the infliction of corporal punishments. No class of men, he would assert, were more alive to feelings of compassion. He did not deny the statement of the hon. member (Mr. J. Smith), that such feelings as he had described might be called forth from a mob witnessing a punishment. It was impossible not to have feelings of compassion, in seeing a fellow-man suffer; but it was one thing to have those feelings, and another to legislate on them. It would be inconsistent with sound policy to legislate on such feelings alone; and, in looking to military punishment, it should be considered whether the discipline of the army could be kept up without them. He was no friend to severe punishment of any kind; but he did think that the power of inflicting corporal punishment was necessary to the discipline of an army. He knew of no instance of any army, ancient or modern, without similar punishments. They were in use in the Roman army, and it would not be denied that they were kept in the highest state of discipline. It was not a fact, as the hon. member had stated, that the punishment of flogging was altogether abolished in America. But suppose it were so, what comparison was there between an army of 6,000 men, scattered over the immense surface of that country, and the extensive army kept up in this? The regulations of the two armies might be extremely different, and, at the same time, be applicable to the circumstances of the country. America did not want a standing army. What power would invade America? Her power was derived from a force of another description, and, the state of discipline of her troops would
1299
1300
1301
Sir R. Wilson
said, he would not enter into any particular exemplification of a painful nature; but he would state generally, that his experience left no doubt on his mind, that the sort of punishment under discussion was one which ought to be abolished. It continued to exist in our military code, though every other power in Europe had rejected it. No such punishment was known in France, nor in many parts of Germany; nor in any shape similar to our own, even in Austria. In Holland it was completely abolished. The king of the Netherlands, on his return to that country, confirmed a decree previously issued for its abolition, and it had not since been re-introduced. The abolition had been attended with no prejudice whatever to the military service of that country. The gallant general had
1302
1303
Mr. W. Smith
said, he perfectly coincided with his gallant friend, that it was the nature of the punishment and not the severity of it, which was to be objected to. He thought some other mode might be devised equally effectual; such as stoppage of pay or provisions; at any rate, any expedient was preferable to flogging. There might be some few individuals in the army of such base and callous minds, that nothing but flogging could have any effect upon them; but it was neither just nor proper, that in order to meet these few peculiar cases, the comfort and credit of the whole army should be sacrificed.
Sir F. Blake
deprecated the infliction of corporal punishment.
Colonel Johnson
said, that the whole argument of the gallant general opposite, went to prove, that the chief good to be derived from the soldier must first be flogged into him. For his own part, he thought that if commanders would only contrive to command their own tempers, there would be but little recourse to that disgraceful, unnecessary, and detestable punishment,
Lord Palmerston
said, he did not wish to put the question on unfair grounds, lie was ready to admit, that whenever punishment was accompanied with ignominy it must necessarily have the effect of hardening the offender; but he conceived that the doing away with this punishment would have the effect of introducing other and greater evils. There was something in the constitution of an army which required some stronger and more speedy power to control it, than was necessary for the regulation of a mere civil body. Indeed, the history of every age and. country showed this; and he would assert without fear of contradiction, that corppral punishment had prevailed in every army which had ever existed; and whether that punishment was administered with a cane or with a lash, did not seem to him to make much difference; at least with regard to the ignominy of it, urtjlch1 appeared to be the greatest objection been raised against it. He could assure the House, that a dispo-
1304
Sir R. Fergusson
said, he was convinced from the speech which the noble lord had just made, that he agreed in opinion with his hon. friend who had brought forward this motion, though in his situation it might not be prudent to avow it. The analogy which a gallant general had endeavoured to draw between the soldiers of foreign powers and our own army ought not to be permitted for a single moment. The former were the subjects of despotic powers; the latter were the subjects of a free state. As far as his own personal experience went, he had always observed, that the best discipline was preserved in those regiments where corporal punishment was least frequently inflicted. From this he inferred, that whilst regiments were employed on home service, their discipline could be maintained without having recourse to the whip, or the cat-o'-nine-tails.
General Townshend
observed, that having been in the performance of regimental duty for thirty years, he might be permitted to say, that he brought at least the benefit of experience to this question. Corporal punishments had formerly been
1305
The committee divided. For the clause 47; Against it 99; majority 52;
HOUSE OF COMMONS.
Monday, March 13, 1826.
FINANCIAL SITUATION OF THE COUNTRY.
The House having resolved itself into a committee of Ways and Means,
The Chancellor of the Exchequer
rose to make his promised exposition of the Financial Situation of the Country, and addressed the committee as follows
*
*
1306
1307
1308
1309
l.
l.
l.
l.
l.
l.
l.,
l.
l.
l.,
l.
l.
l.
l.
l.
l.
The estimated revenue for 1823
was
£.52,200,000
1824
…
51,265,000
1825
…
51,975,000
Total
£.155,440,000
1310
The actual receipt for 1823
was
£.52,017,000
1824
…
52,562,000
1825
…
52,259,000
Total
£.156,838,000
l.
l.
l.
1311
l.
l.
l.
l.
1312
l.
l.
l.
l.
l.,
l.
l.
l.
l.
l.
l.
l.
l.
l.
l.
l.
viz.
l.
l.
l.
l.
l.
l.
l.
l.
l.
l.
l.
l.
l.
l.
l.
l.
l.
1313
l.,
l.,
l.
l.
l.,
l.
l.
l.
l.
l.
l.
l.,
l.
l.
l.,
1314
1315
1316
l.,
l.
l.
l.
l.
l.
l.
l.
l.
l.
l.
l.
l.
l.
l.
l.
l.
l.,
1317
l.
l.
l.,
l.
l.
1318
"Oh what a fall was there, my countrymen!
Then you, and I, and all of us fell down,
And bloody treason flourished over us:"
1319
1320
£
Interest and Management of the Public Dept
27,117,186
Interest of Exchequer (deficiency) Bills
50,000
Civil List, and Pensions of a permanent nature, charged on the Consolidated Fund, and not the subject of an annual vote
2,065,000
Half-pay Annuity
2,800,000
Sinking Fund
5,585,235
Permanent charge on Consol Fund
£.37,617,421
£
Army
7,747,000
Navy
6,135,000
Ordnance
1,754,000
Miscellaneous
2,225,000
Interest of Exchequer Bills.
£850,000
Annual Votes,
£.18,711,000
Add the Permanent Charge
£.37,617,421
The whole expenditure of the year
£.56,328,421
1321
A small item, being the surplus of last year beyond the demand of the Sinking fund, which I consider myself entitled to make available towards the expenditure of the present year
£. 167,000
Customs and Excise; which I take together on account of the transfer to the Customs of a large proportion of the duties formerly collected by the Excise; and the impossibility of separating the items without great confusion
37,446,000
Stamps
7,400,000
Taxes (including the Assessed
4,800,000
Post Office
1,550,000
Miscellaneous
1,360,000
The total income from these sources.
£.52,723,000
Payment from the Trustees of Half-pay and Pensions.
4,320,000
The whole Receipts of the year.
£.57,043,000
Deduct the Expenditure
56,328,421
Surplus for Parliament to deal with as they may think fit.
£.714,579
l.
1322
l.;
l.
l.
1323
l.
£.
Progressive reduction of Bounties
50,000
Wine Drawback, allowed last year to the wine merchants, but not to be deducted from this year's revenue.
1,050,000
Loss by the lapse of Tobacco duty.
450,000
£1,550,000
If to this be added the actual produce of the Customs and Excise in 1825.
37,546,000
We have a Total of
£39,096,000
l.
l.
l.
1324
l.,
l.
l.,
l.
l.
l.
l.
l.;
1325
l.
£.
The gross receipts for January and February, 1825, were.
2,259,669
Those from January and February 1826, were.
2,257,280
Decrease
£.2,389
l.
£.
The produce in January and February1825, was.
292,933
The produce in 1826 was.
190,933
Decrease.
£.102,000
1326
l.
l.
l.
l.;
l.
l.;
l.;
l.
l.
l
l;
l.
l.,
1327
l.
l.
l.
l.
l.,
l.,
CUSTOMS AND EXCISE.
Produce of 1825.
£.37,546,000
Add—Progressive Reduction of Bounties
£.50,000
Wine Drawback
1,050,000
1328
Loss by lapse of Tobacco duty
450,000
1,550,000
£.39,096,000
Deduct—Further loss from Reductions last year
£350,000
Further loss from diminished consumption
1,300,000
1,650,000
Estimate for 1826
£.37,446,000
STAMPS.
Produce of 1825.
£.7,447,923
Deduct assumed loss in 1826
47,923
Estimate for 1826
£.7,400,000
TAXES.
Produce of 1825
£.4,990,961
Deduct loss from reduction in 1825
190,961
Estimate for 1826
£.4,800,000
POST-OFFICE.
Produce of 1825.
£.1,595,461
Deduct assumed loss in 1826
45,461
Estimate for 1826
£.1,550,000
MISCELLANEOUS.
Produce of 1825
£.619,088
Add—Payment from Holland, Lottery, and East India Company, on account of naval force.
£.340,912
Add also—Silver from Ireland.
400,000
740,912
Estimate for 1826
£.1,360,000
l.
1329
l.;
1330
l.
l.
1331
l.
l.
l.,
l.,
l.,
l.
l.;
l.
1332
1333
1334
"To take up arms against that siege of troubles,
And by opposing—end them;"
Mr. Maberly
hoped the House would not be led away by the statements of the right hon. gentleman, some of which he considered to be complete fallacies, and should, he thought, be able to prove them, such, to the satisfaction of the House. The first and the greatest fallacy the right hon. gentleman had been guilty of, was his assumption with respect to the diminution of the charge of the public debt. He had gone back to 1816, and compared the revenue of that year with that of 1825; but with regard to the comparison of the capital of the debt, he had gone no further back than 1823. In that the error Consisted, and the only reason the right hon. gentleman could have for the deceit was, that in 1822, an additional charge was put on the management of the debt to the amount of 2,800,000
l.;
1335
l,
l.
The Chancellor of the Exchequer
said, that the calculation to which the hon. member alluded was made last year, before the reduction of taxes took place, and of course the surplus was less by the amount of the taxes reduced.
Mr. Maberly
said, that that of course would alter his argument, as to that point. Still, however, he must repeat his regret, that the right hon. gentleman had not made his calculation on the produce of the revenue up to the present period; for if it should turn out that there was a great falling off in the revenue in the month of February, the hon. member could hardly be said to have made a fair calculation. He was, happy, however, to see in the right hon. gentleman a disposition to take away any part of the unfunded debt. He regretted that it had not been done last year. The right hon. gentleman had entirely mistaken what had fallen from him upon a former occasion. He never meant to say that he could have funded Exchequer-bills, and reduce the 5 or 4 per cents at the same time. But he might have done so in subsequent years. He might have done so with great advantage to the public when the 3 per cents were between 90 and 100. He must again press upon the right hon. gentleman the dangerous nature of such securities as Exchequer-bills — he meant that class of them for which immediate payment might be required, as for a promissory note. He approved of the plan of funding nine or ten millions of Exchequer-bills, and of applying the Sinking-
1336
Mr. Hume
said, that the eloquence of the right hon. gentleman opposite- had entirely led the House away from those points to which its attention ought to have been called, and on which it should have got some more satisfactory explanation than they had heard that night. He was not then going to follow the right hon. gentleman through all his arguments, but he must object to the mode in which he had made his calculations, and the periods between which and the present he had made comparisons as to consumption and as to revenue. However, he would not have risen now but for the allusions made to his statement on a former evening. That statement was, that though so much had been talked of about the reduction of taxes, more money had been taken from: the pockets of the people within the last three years than had been within the preceding years. The moment he made the assertion, it was positively contradicted by the Secretary for Foreign Affairs, and by the chancellor of the Exchequer. He would, however, repeat his assertion, and he would prove it to demonstration by the returns before the House. He would not follow the right hon. gentleman back to 1816, and he did not see what right he had to go to that year; but he would take the returns of revenue of the years 1817, 1818, and 1819, and compare them with those of the last three years, and it would be seen that in the latter more money was taken out of the pockets of the people than in the former. By those returns it appeared that the amount of revenue was, in 1817, 51,183,000
l.;
l.;
l.
l,;
1337
l.;
l.;
l,
l.
l.;
l.
l.
1338
1339
Sir J. Newport
said, he felt himself obliged to express an opinion quite different from that which his hon. friend entertained with respect to the conduct of ministers. He thought the country was greatly indebted to the chancellor of the Exchequer, and the President of the Board of Trade, for the measures which they had adopted since they had been in office. They had effected considerable reduction of taxation, and placed matters in such a train, that a progressive reduction must take place; which would, he believed* and particularly in the case of Ireland, insure an increased revenue. The measures which ministers had adopted for reforming the mode of Collecting the revenue in Ireland would work a great moral improvement in the habits of the people. He trusted that they would carry their reforms still further. The revenue jurisdiction of Ireland should be entirely abolished. In the post-office department the most scandalous abuses prevailed. Might not this be incorporated with the English department? He Ventured to throw out the suggestion, and trusted it would obtain attention.
Mr. Baring
rose to express his concurrence m the sentiments of his right hon. friend who had just sat down. Nothing, in his opinion, could be more fair or more manly than the Candour of the chancellor of the Exchequer, in the speech which he had just made; and he was sure it would prove highly satisfactory to the country. Every financial statement must proceed upon some estimate; and he must be a bold man who would pretend to foretel what the revenue for the present year would be. Even the chancellor of the Exchequer, with the great judgment and acuteness which he possessed, could not undertake to say whether there would be one million or two millions deficiency in the revenue for this year. Where there were bubble fortunes, there must be a bubble revenue. The increase of trade proceeded from a momentary excitement. The general failures caused a suspension of those luxuries which had created the increase of revenue; and the revenue
1340
l.
l.
l.
l.
l.
The Chancellor of the Exchequer
begged to explain himself upon two points. The first point was with reference to the revenue of the year. The hon. gentleman had taken him to task for admitting into the calculation for the year 400,000
l.
l.
l.
l.
l;
1341
l.
Mr. Calcraft
did not wish to protract the debate, but he wished to make one observation with respect to the duty on tobacco. He thought the reduction of duty from 4
s.
s.
s
Captain Gordon
expressed his surprise that the chancellor of the Exchequer should have attacked the Scotch people for having objected to the removal of the Scottish revenue board to London, when, in point of fact, the great body of the people of Scotland were in favour of that measure.
The Chancellor of the Exchequer
said, he had not blamed the Scottish people; on the contrary, he had eulogized them; and had only expressed his surprise that any man could be found in that country to oppose or find fault with the measure.
Sir C. Forbes
could not help expressing his surprise at the attempt about to be made to alter the currency of Scotland. He hoped that those members who were more immediately interested in the welfare of that country would make a stand, and resist the plan proposed by ministers for altering the Scottish banking system. He was decidedly of opinion that any alteration would be injurious; and so long as he could get one member to support him, he should oppose it; and he hoped ultimately the measure would be abandoned. He hoped the members from Scotland would imitate the gentlemen of the sister kingdom, and stick together upon this occasion.
Mr. Ellice
said, he could not help noticing what had fallen from the hon. baronet. The House had passed a bill which was to regulate the currency of England, and, he would ask, what right had Scotland to be exempted from a similar regulation? He was unable to comprehend why a measure highly expedient for England should not apply with equal advantage to Scotland. The hon. member for Midhurst had exclaimed against the country bankers of England; but he wished the House to notice the
1342
Mr. Bright
asked, what was to be done with the surplus of 120,000
l
Mr. Huskisson
said, that when on a former night his right hon. friend had spoken of the duty on soap, he had intimated that the arrangement relative to it was this—that all who used it in the silk manufacture, should enjoy the same advantages as those engaged in the woollen manufacture; namely, that of a drawback of the duty. On the subject of dye-drugs, it could scarcely be forgotten that there had been imposed upon them no more than a nominal duty. The surplus of 120,000
l.,
1343
l.
l.
l.
l.
The resolution was then agreed to.
HOUSE OF LORDS.
Tuesday, March 14, 1826.
ABOLITION OF SLAVERY.
Earl Grosvenor
said, he held in his hand a peti-
1344
The Bishop of Chester
said, that having been requested to present this petition with his noble friend, he had great pleasure in doing so. He concurred in the sympathy expressed for the sufferings of the negro population of the West Indies, but he was content to leave the details of the measures for their relief in the hands of his majesty's ministers, being satisfied that, with regard to this subject, they were actuated by the same feelings of justice and humanity as the public, and were likely to proceed with more discretion and policy.
Lord Ellenborough
said, he had a petition to present on a point connected with the West-India slavery, which had not been touched upon in the late debates on that subject; namely, the situation of free men of colour. It appeared, that according to the laws of Barbadoes and other islands, the evidence of free persons of colour could not be received against whites. In case of their incarceration on any charge, they could not be allowed to go at large, unless they obtained what was called white bail. They could not serve as constables or jurymen, and were not allowed to vote on the election of white men to offices. It was evidently absurd to talk of giving liberty to the blacks in the West Indies, if those men of colour who were already emancipated, were not allowed to enjoy the rights of free men. The petitioner was very modest in his demand. He only prayed that their lordships would institute an inquiry into the propriety of considering how far free men of colour ought to obtain relief. From this prayer their lordships would perceive that he was not a person who was inclined to dash at once to a conclusion. He was, however, a
1345
Earl Bathurst
observed, that there was some difficulty connected with this subject. It formed a separate question from the general one relating to slavery; but it bad not been overlooked, and was under the consideration of government.
CORN LAWS.
Lord King
said, he rose to present a petition against that real dead-weight, or job of jobs, the Corn laws. On this subject he had already had the misfortune to provoke two of his noble friends. One of them had told him, that it was very improper to take the House by surprise with arguments which noble lards were not prepared to answer. On the present, occasion, therefore, he should avoid any of those abstruse principles of political economy which had been so much complained of, but would confine himself to history and plain matter of fact. Turning, then, to history, he must remind their lordships of the period when the Corn laws were passed. That event took place in those dark ages of legislation, in those times of ignorance, when it was gravely declared that a one-pound note was equal in value to a sovereign. Then it was, when our political sun was in obscuration, that a law was passed to make corn and bread dear. Tradition said, that after a very expensive war, the landlords objected to pay their share of the expense. They liked the war very well, but they did not like to be called upon when the bill came to be settled. They then took counsel how to avoid paying their part of the bill. Two ways occurred to them of accomplishing that object. The first was by defrauding the public creditor; the second by taxing the consumers of corn. Now it happened, that to the first course the government objected the public creditor was therefore
1346
The Earl of Limerick
declared, that when the noble lord began to address their lordships, he had no intention of replying to any thing which might be said on the subject of this petition. He was, how-
1347
PROMISSORY NOTES BILL.
The Earl of Liverpool
, in moving the order of the day for the second reading of this bill, observed, that it was not his intention to enter into any statements upon this occasion; because, when he brought forward the measure relating to the Bank charter, he had put their lordships in possession of the whole system which his majesty's government thought advisable to adopt with respect to this subject. Should any doubt arise with respect to the provisions of this bill, or any objection be urged against it, he should be ready to state in explanation whatever might occur to his mind. The operation of this bill was intended to be confined to England; its object was, to extinguish the circulation of notes under 5
l.
1348
The Earl of Carnarvon
objected to the whole of this measure; first, on account of the time at which it was introduced; next, on account of the circumstances under which it was brought forward; and thirdly, on the abstract principle, that a paper-currency founded on a metallic one was the best and the safest for the interest of this country. He also objected to it because it was intended to prevent the recurrence of such crises as that which the country had lately suffered and continued to endure, convinced as he was that it would be found wholly inoperative for that purpose. It was therefore his determination to give it a decided negative. If the measure professed to afford relief to the present distress, he should, perhaps, have hesitated before he offered any opposition to it; but when it was admitted, that it would bring no relief at present, and was hastily brought forward without inquiry, not for the purpose of meeting the existing evil, but to prevent a recurrence of it, the case was widely different. He was not for adopting measures to-day, which it might be found expedient to abandon to-morrow; and if any question brought forward under such circumstances were more calculated to produce mischief than another, it was a question affecting the currency of the country. The effect of the bill was counteracted by the principle of another measure with which it had been coupled, respecting the Bank of England. To that measure he did not object; but he felt that it strengthened his objection to the adoption of this bill at present, when the agitation which it excited in the public mind had produced the introduction of another measure before this had gone through the House. It produced the greatest effects upon the money-market at this moment. He knew, however, that that argument would be met by the observation, that the measure ought therefore to be set at rest at once. Now, he should rather say, in the present state of the money-market, let them wave all future considerations now, and apply their minds to the application of a remedy to the existing distress. But no; a different line of conduct was adopted by his majesty's government. They said they had foreseen the evils which had arrived, and therefore would apply no remedy to them. Others might do so if they pleased, and
1349
l.
l.
1350
l.
l.
1351
1352
The Earl of Darnley
said, he could not agree with his noble friend in thinking that this measure was likely to prove injurious to the poor. Indeed, he should give it his support, because he looked upon it as the first duty of government to protect the labouring classes from the misery to which they had lately been exposed by the stoppage of so many banks. If he could bring himself to believe that its effect would be to throw a large por-
1353
The Earl of Liverpool
said, he wished to make a few observations on what had fallen from the noble earl who had moved the amendment; but, in the first place, he was desirous to reply to some remarks from the noble earl who had just spoken.
1354
1355
1356
The Earl of Lauderdale
said, he agreed
1357
l.
1358
The amendment was negatived, and the bill read a second time.
HOUSE OF COMMONS.
Tuesday, March 14, 1826.
BANKING SYSTEM IN SCOTLAND.
Lord A. Hamilton
presented a petition from Lanark. He said, he thought it singular, after the government had so often lauded the system of banking in Scotland, and held it up for the imitation of the English bankers, that they should propose to effect a total alteration in it.
Mr. Abercromby
said, he did not believe that the real feeling of the people of Scotland was opposed to the alteration in the currency of Scotland. On the contrary, he had reason to believe that the opposition came from persons interested in keeping up the present system. He was happy to find the whole of the press in Scotland advocating the cause of truth, and arguing in favour of the intended alteration, and acquainted as he was with the character of his countrymen, he could not refrain from expressing his surprise at the unblushing effrontery with which it was stated that the paper currency was universally believed to be intimately connected with the interests of Scotland.
Mr. W. Dundas
thought the learned gentleman's statement proved him to be little acquainted with the present condition of his countrymen. His habits necessarily withdrew him from Scotland; and he appeared to have formed the opinions he had just now expressed from the press, which, whatever might be its other merits, was not an unquestionable authority on this subject. It was most natural that the great majority of the Scotch should be, as they were, averse to the alteration of a system under which their country had risen, in the course of a hun-
1359
Mr. Ellice
believed it would appear that the Scotch banks, the sound principle of which had been so much vaunted, had very materially tended to produce the mischiefs that were now felt so generally in Scotland.
Mr. J. Smith
was enabled to state, from his knowledge of the several banks of Scotland, that they enjoyed the highest credit throughout that country.
Mr. Maberly
believed that the Scotch nation were, from habit, so attached to the paper system, that they would refuse gold, if it was offered to them in lieu of it; but still he thought that the system ought to be altered, as a period of panic and pressure might arise in Scotland, when the mischief of such a currency would entail ruin upon that country.
Mr. Home Drummond
had no objection to the appointment of a committee on the subject. He was quite satisfied that the petition expressed the general opinion throughout Scotland, and that there had never been a question on which that country had been so unanimous.
Mr. Hudson Gurney
thought that nothing was more injurious than keeping a country in the state of uneasiness and uncertainty which discussions of this nature must necessarily create. If he might venture to offer his advice to the chancellor of the Exchequer, it would be to leave Scotland in the state in which it now was, until he had seen how the proposed alterations of system had worked in England, where, he conceived, the right hon. gentleman had already full enough on his hands, without extending the surface of his operations, and thereby greatly increasing his own embarrassments.
Colonel Johnson
said, be should be glad to have the real opinion of the people of Scotland, on this subject. When he was in that country, he believed they had no option; for he had never seen any gold at all. If the petitions spoke the sense of the people of Scotland, he was very much mistaken. He was rather inclined to attribute them to persons who were interested in keeping up the present state of things.
Mr. Baring
said, he should be sorry to have a notion go abroad that the committee was to be appointed to inquire into
1360
The Chancellor of the Exchequer
said, it had never been his intention to submit to the House any question as to the solvency of the banks in Scotland. He was assured that they were all solvent; and if they were not, an inquiry of that nature would be as unprofitable as it would be ungracious. His only object was, to ascertain whether it would be politic to leave the small notes in circulation in Scotland, when they were abolished in England; and that he considered to be a very proper question for investigation by a committee.
Ordered to lie on the table.
EMIGRATION.
Mr. Wilmot Horton
said, he rose for the purpose of bringing forward the motion of which he had given notice, for a select committee "to inquire into the expediency of encouraging Emigration from the United Kingdom." It would not be necessary for him to enter at length into the subject. The House would recollect, that, in the year 1823, a sum of 50,000
l.
l.
1361
l.
l.
1362
s.
l.
1363
l.
l.
l.
l.
1364
Mr. Hume
said, he had no objection to the inquiry; for he felt quite satisfied that when the subject was considered by a committee, they would have a report disapproving of the expenditure of the money of the country for such an object. It never could answer for them to incur the expense of 100
l.
l.,
l.
The motion was agreed to.
1365
BRIBERY AT ELECTIONS BILL.
Lord John Russell
having moved the second reading of this bill,
Mr. Wynn
said, that as he understood it, the principle of the bill was, that upon complaint made to the House, a select committee should be appointed to try the issue, and that their decision should be absolute and final. To this there was this obvious objection—that the decision of no committee could be binding upon the House. The inquisitorial powers of the House might be delegated; but not the judicial. A body might be appointed to bring in a true verdict as to fact; but the question of corruption was a question of inference. All that a committee could do, was to report to the House; and the House could then do what they pleased upon it—either proceed further, or let it sleep. The bill also gave power to present petitions of complaint within six years from the period. This he thought too long. He also objected that there was no penalty or punishment assigned to an unfounded charge. Experience ought to show them the necessity of some such thing. In 1788, it was found necessary to enact, that any person presenting a frivolous petition should pay the whole costs. Now, this bill enacted, that the public should pay the costs of the whole inquiry. This would give rise to a thousand evils, of which they had at present no idea. It would, beyond question, lead not only to Vexatious but to malicious charges; and moreover, for the bringing of such charges, no penalty was declared. To the system proposed for choosing the committee of inquiry, too, he objected. The provision as to the appointment of the nominee was perfectly unfair. The nomineeship was perhaps the worst part of the existing system. Each party, in a petition of the kind in question, now named tome one person upon the committee in whose discretion he thought he could confide: and that nominee invariably became a counsel in the case rather than a judge. But the noble lord's bill gave the accuser the power of appointing such a nominee, and withheld it from the defendant—an alteration which made that course partial and unjust, which was objectionable enough already. The House had already possessed powers amply sufficient to correct bribery whenever a case of the kind was fairly made out. He never knew an instance in which the House had failed to deal severely with those against whom
1366
Mr. Warre
was of opinion, that, in point of principle, no fair objection could be raised against the present measure, because they all knew perfectly well, that election committees were in the habit, under particular circumstances, of making special reports, the matter contained in which gave rise to ulterior proceedings. He could by no means go along with the right hon. gentleman in his statement, that the law, in its present state, was sufficient to put an end to those corrupt and disgraceful practices which were known to be carried on in elections. The House ought to be allowed a more extended period than was now granted, for hearing complaints on the subject of bribery and corruption. The call for reform should not be confined to those only who were within parliament; it ought to reach those who were without the walls of that House. Reform was as much required amongst the electors as amongst the elected; and if the noble lord could devise a plan, by which notorious and scandalous practices of the sort to which his bill referred could be put an end to, a most beneficial object would be gained. In some of the boroughs those practices were notorious. If the provisions of the present measure were hung over them in terrorem, it would produce a very good effect. He trusted, therefore, that the bill would be suffered to go into a committee, and that gentlemen would lend their cordial endeavours to render its provisions effectual.
Mr. Lockhart
denied that the House had, under the existing law, sufficient power to correct the evil. The right hon. gentleman had not denied that corrupt practices existed; and it was well known, that in some boroughs those practices were carried to an enormous extent. Surely such a system should be done away with.
Mr. Hudson Gurney
thought the provisions of this bill so extremely objectionable that if any member would divide the House, he would vote against the second reading. Its principle went to keep alive, in all the boroughs, a state of never-ceasing dissention, and to involve the House in litigations without end.
Mr. N. Calvert
observed, that every means ought to be taken to put down bribery at elections. The right of voting ought to be considered as a trust, and not treated as if it were a properly; and the
1367
Mr. Pearse
defended the Bank of England from having any knowledge of the transaction to which the hon. member had alluded.
Mr. N. Calvert
said, he happened to be on a committee, where it was proved that new Bank notes came down to the election in consecutive numbers, and some of them were traced to the voters.
Mr. Wynn
said, he had ever supported the principle of disfranchising whenever abuse could be proved; but he was in doubt whether the present bill was calculated to remove or to promote the evils which it proposed to remedy.
Colonel Davies
reminded the House, that the proof of a single act of corruption, in an individual elector, vitiated the return of the candidate whom he had supported. Would hon. members say, that the corruption of an individual should be held as the act of all his fellow electors, and sufficient to disfranchise the entire borough?
Mr. W. Smith
thought that the evil which this bill was intended to repress required correction. Some years ago he had had a negotiation for one of those open boroughs, as they were called; but when he came to inquire into the business, he found that the former member had promised 10
l.
l.
Mr. Hobhouse
said, that an intelligence had gone abroad on this, as well as on other subjects, which rendered it impossible that the law should be continued in its present state. He saw no great force in the observations of an hon. gentleman,
1368
l.
l.
1369
Mr. F. Palmer
was perfectly convinced that some sort of reform in parliament, for which the people had been calling for the last twenty years, ought to be introduced. The people looked to that House for such a reform; and, if the House did not reform itself from within, it would ultimately be reformed from without. In saying this, he was making use of an old expression; but such was, in his opinion, the feeling which pervaded the people.
Lord J. Russell
said, that the statements which had been made that night, proved that some measure of the kind was absolutely called for. The general election was fast approaching, and no doubt could be entertained that bribery and corruption were now going on. This rendered it the more necessary to make a speedy alteration in the law. It was notorious, that the returns to that House were, in many instances, made in virtue of money, and nothing else. He did not mean to make any remark on what had fallen from the hon. member for Hertford, or the lion, member for Devizes, relative to the Bank; but it was a remarkable circumstance, that when the hon. member for Penrhyn (Mr. Grenfell) had apprised his constituents, that he would decline making any advances to that borough, if likely to be attended with pecuniary expense, a person connected with the Bank immediately went down to form a connexion with that place, where he was not at all known; and it certainly was doubtful, whether some of the newly-issued Bank of England notes would not find their way to Penrhyn in the course of the next election. While such notorious practices were carrying on, was it not the duty of the House to take steps to check them? He had himself known instances in which the electors, when the member had been in the House for fourteen days without any petition being presented against his return, had come forward and said, "the fourteen days are now over, and we call upon you to pay us for returning you." Such disgraceful conduct ought to be put an end to. He did not know that his bill would have the complete effect, but he hoped that it might be so modeled as to answer the purposes for which he intended it. The high tone of feeling in the country on this subject, and the improved state
1370
The Bill was then read a second time.
MUTINY BILL—FLOGGING IN THE ARMY.
On the order of the day for the third reading of the Mutiny bill,
Mr. Hume
observed, that the feeling of the country, which had been so pointedly referred to in the discussion of the question just now disposed of, was, without question, diametrically opposed to the system of military flogging. He hoped the time would soon arrive, when Englishmen would no longer be the only European subjects whom it was thought necessary to goad to the completion of their duty with the whip. Why should it be presumed that British soldiers would fail in that sense of honour which animated all other troops? The reason was to be found in the very nature of the punishment. They brutalized men by their discipline, and then complained that the men acted as brutes. He protested against the continuance of the system.
Mr. Hobhouse
congratulated himself on having been one of the minority of forty-seven who voted against flogging the other evening. He felt the more justified in that sentiment, by the recollection that his hon. colleague (sir F. Burdett) when he first introduced the subject to the House, was one in a minority of six at the utmost. Last year the minority was considerable, and this year more so. After the holidays, he proposed to move for returns for two different periods, which would show the progress which this subject had made in the public mind. It was highly satisfactory to know the opinion entertained of it by the commander-in-chief and several of the first generals of the army. But if, according to the opinion inculcated by those high military authorities, and enforced by their practice, the discipline of the army had notoriously improved by the relaxation of that inhuman mode of punishment, how could gallant officers assure the House that it was necessary that the power of inflicting it should remain with the officers of the army? The House must feel great deference for the opinion of practical men, but could not listen to them when they proposed to the House to act upon what they considered to be a safe understanding as distinguished from feeling. The fact was, that the House would be safer
1371
The bill was then read a third time.
HOUSE OF COMMONS.
Wednesday, March 15, 1826.
COMMISSIONERS OF BANKRUPTS —
Sir Robert Wilson
rose to bring forward the motion of which he had given notice. It was one of considerable importance to the trading world, as being a feature in the heavy list of charges to which the estate of a bankrupt was liable in transitu to his creditors. The tavern expenses incurred by commissioners of bankrupt in working commissions in the country were enormous and illegal. It was desirable that so wanton an expense should be put a stop to. The best means of judging of the extent to which this abuse had been carried, was by ascertaining the amount of expenses incurred within the last three years. This might be attended with difficulty, but it was not impracticable. There Was an officer called the secretary of bankrupts, upon whom the House might call for all the information in his power, and he again might be required to address circulars to all the solicitors for country commissions within the last three years, to deduct from the mass of items the particular expense of each commission, and the whole might be arranged by the secretary and presented to this House. He concluded by moving, "That there be laid before the House an account of all Tavern Expenses incurred by commissioners of bankrupts under commissions executed in the country for the last three years."
The Solicitor General
observed first, upon the difficulty of complying with the motion; and, Secondly, upon its irrelevancy, as all the abuses (if any existed) were provided against by act of parliament. If the commissioners were guilty of any abuse, they were liable to be disqualified, upon complaint made to the Chancellor. The law was riot, therefore, defective, and there appeared to him be necessity for the returns.
1372
Mr. Abercromby
reprobated the wanton accumulation of expense which these illegal indulgences of the commissioners occasioned. He held in his hand the bill of costs of a bankrupt commission, in which there were dinner bills to the amount of 47
l.
l.
Mr. W. J. Bankes
contended, that the law as it stood was sufficiently remedial. It should not be forgotten that the commissioners acted under an oath, and that if they winked at abuses, they would be guilty of perjury.
Mr. Hume
said, it was no answer that there existed a law on the subject, if that law was not Carried into effect. Two years ago a return was laid on the table, by which it appeared that 224,000
l.
Mr. S. Bourne
thought the gallant member should confine the return to the year which had elapsed since the passing of the act alluded to. The abuses complained of were a gross violation of the law, and he did not know why proceedings should not be instituted against the persons guilty of them.
Mr. Bankes
said, if the gallant member would confine himself to the date when the law began to operate, he would not object to it.
Mr. Wynn
said that, according to the terms of the motion, the parties were bound to make a return, even of the expenses which they paid out of their own pockets. Now, it would be better to direct prosecutions to be instituted against the persons guilty of such offences, than to call upon the whole body to make admissions which would expose them to prosecutions.
Sir R. Wilson
said, he had no objection to Confine the return to the time when the act came into operation last year.
The motion was agreed to.
1373
HOUSE OF LORDS.
Thursday, March 16, 1826.
USURY LAWS.
The Marquis of Lansdown
said, he held in his hand a petition from the same body in Manchester from which, a few days before he presented a petition in favour of the bill, for putting an end to the circulation of small notes. The petitioners thought the subject was materially connected with that bill; and he could not but think that it had, if not directly, at least indirectly, a connection with it, as it related to the subject of commercial distress. The object of this petition was, to call their lordships' attention to the Usury Laws. Those laws had certainly greatly aggravated the distress which prevailed among the mercantile classes. Few of their lordships could be aware of the great loss of capital and loss of interest, which had taken place, within the last six months, in consequence of that unfortunate attempt of the law of England to fix the value of capital,—to make that fixed which was in its nature unfixed and variable. This constituted a state of things which had been the ruin of many individuals; but he spoke not now so much with reference to the effect of the law on the landed interest as to its operations on commerce. Such was the state of the law, that if persons found it necessary to borrow money they could not do so on terms above the fixed rate. What was this but saying that they might borrow money when they had no occasion do so; but that when their exigencies required them to borrow, the law should step in and shut them out from that resource? Thus, in times of great pressure, the law compelled persons in difficulty to resort to the most ruinous terms. This was as inconsistent as it would be to say to a person insuring his life, that no insurance should be effected for less than ten years' purchase. The principle was the same as telling such a person, that when he was in good health he might effect his purpose, but that at a moment of sickness or in advanced age, when insurance became the more necessary for the sake of his wife and children, he should then be deprived of the opportunity of taking such a step. He defied any noble lord to show that there was the least difference in principle between a law which would prohibit the insurance of life at such value as might be put upon it, and one which prevented a man from
1374
The Earl of Liverpool
said, he had had an opportunity of learning the sentiments of the petitioners, at a meeting which took place some time ago, when certain persons belonging to the same body as the petitioners, applied to government to learn whether it could not afford relief to the existing commercial distress. Those persons assured him that they should not have made, nor would they have had pretence for making, application to government for relief, had it not been for the circumstances in which they were placed by the Usury Laws. Now he was aware that obstacles stood in the way of abrogating those laws altogether, in consequence of their bearing on particular interests; but, notwithstanding this, he was of opinion, that at no distant day their lordships must give their best consideration to the state of those laws. The question was one of much difficulty, but the present state of the law could be defended on no sound principle.
HOUSE OF COMMONS.
Thursday, March 16, 1826.
EAST INDIA COMPANY.—APPOINTMENT
Mr. Wynn
rose to bring forward his motion, respecting the appointment of writers in the service of the East India Company. By the act 53 Geo. 3rd, c. 155, no person could be appointed a writer, who had not passed four terms at the East India college. Since the establishment of that college, from the extension of the company's territories, the necessity of appointing an additional number of Zillah officer's in Bengal, and other causes, there had been a deficiency of qualified persons. It was found also,
1375
1376
Mr. Hume
said, that what had been stated by the right hon. gentleman cast, in his opinion, a strong reflection on the East-India company's institution at Hailey-bury. He thought that the whole of the system on which that institution was founded was exceedingly injurious. The young men were shut out from all society, and had no opportunity of acquiring the least knowledge of the world. Such a system was calculated to destroy the native character of Englishmen. The speech which lord Grenville delivered in another place, against the formation of this college, did him the greatest honour. The arguments adduced by that noble lord were conclusive against the system; and experience had amply proved, that the noble lord's view of the subject was correct. He clearly showed what would be the result of such a system. Year after year disturbances had taken place in that college, and the young men acquired any thing but that high tone of honour, principle, and public spirit, which they ought to imbibe, to fit them for the high situations which they were destined to fill. He had often deplored the situation in which India was placed, in consequence of the formation of such an establishment. Young men were sent out to act in the most important capacities, without any general knowledge of the world. Individuals were cooped up in that secluded monastery, as he might call it, where they could acquire no knowledge of active life. Young men of twenty-two years of age, were raised to the rank of judges in the Zilla courts; many of which had jurisdiction over a space larger than Yorkshire. For five successive years, attempts had been made, in the court of proprietors, to alter the system which prevailed as to the education of writers; but every attempt had failed. He was glad therefore that government had at last taken up the subject. He hoped, however, that the right hon. gentleman would select some proper mode of examination for persons going out to India. He wished persons
1377
Captain Bradshaw
, adverting to the practice in India relative to Cadets, said that it was usual to make regular reports of their advancement in a knowledge of the language; and adverted particularly to the case of one individual, who was so inattentive to the study of the Hindostanee, that he (captain B.) was directed to inform him, in the presence of the other young men, that the commander-in-chief would not appoint him, if he did not make himself master of the language. The consequence was, that the next day he sent for a Moonshee, began to study, and in a short time was as perfect in the language as any of his fellow cadets.
Sir T. Baring
said, that a cadet could obtain a more perfect knowledge of the native language by a six months' residence in India, than he could by two years' study in this country. He thought upon the whole, that if individuals were allowed to receive their education at such places as their parents or friends thought best, the company would have the best guarantee that their servants would be educated and effective men. He hoped, therefore, that the right hon. gentleman would make his alteration permanent.
Mr. C. Grant
trusted that his right hon. friend would only make this a temporary measure. The whole of the complaints-made against Haileybury College tested on vague report. That institution had been opposed by those who obstinately adhered to the former system, merely on account of its having long prevailed, and who were adverse to any im-
1378
1379
Dr. Phillimore
believed that Haileybury college had fully completed its functions by furnishing India with a supply of well-educated young men for the civil and military services. At the time of establishing the college, there was a great deficiency of the proper means of education. Never did any functionaries acquire more honour and credit than the young men sent out from the college.
Mr. Trant
said, he did not think so highly of the education in this college. His experience of the effects of it in India led him to prefer the education at the Universities.
Leave was given to bring in the bill.
SCOTCH BANKING—SMALL-NOTE
The Chancellor of the Exchequer
said, that after the very ample discussion which the subject of the Small-note Currency had recently, undergone, and after the decided manner in which the House hart expressed its opinion on the general principle of the policy of making the basis of our currency more practically metallic
1380
1381
l.
Mr. Hudson Gurney
said, though he felt that it was the desire of the House not to enter into any general discussion of the subject at that time, yet he could not sit there and hear the proposal for a committee made, without expressing his opinion of the great inconvenience which the appointment of these committees must always produce, from the general
1382
Mr. Keith Douglas
said, that parliament ought to show some deference for the petitions which were coming up from all parts of Scotland, in opposition to the proposed alteration of their currency. During the whole period of the Scotch banking system nothing had occurred to warrant the proposed interference in their concerns. The state of things which had arisen in England, and called for a change, sprung from the late panic, occasioned in part by the insolvency
1383
l.
Captain Gordon
contended, that no good could arise from the appointment of a committee. The very circumstance of inquiry led to the presumption that there was something unsound in the Scotch System of banking. But, that that was not the case, he had the authority of the first lord of the Treasury and of the chancellor of the Exchequer, who now proposed the inquiry. They said in their communications with the Bank—"We have a further proof of the truth of what has been advanced, in the experience of Scotland, which escaped all the convulsions which have occurred in the money-market of England for the last thirty-five years, though Scotland, for the whole of that time, has had a circulation of one-pound notes, and the small pecuniary transactions of that part of the United Kingdom have been carried on exclu-
1384
Mr. W. Dundas
thought, that government deserved thanks for its conduct on this occasion. He was astonished at the objections brought forward by some horn members to a committee of inquiry. That inquiry was not, whether the banking establishments in Scotland were in a solvent condition or conducted on sound principles, but whether the withdrawal of the one-pound notes would be hurtful to its interests. The members from the northern part of the empire thought that no evil could result from circulating them; but would others take their mere words for the fact? He looked with attachment to a system which had prevailed for upwards of a hundred years, and under which his
1385
Mr. Home Drummond
was glad the chancellor of the Exchequer had so candidly admitted the existence of the feeling on this subject, which, be it right or wrong, most certainly did prevail in Scotland, and which, notwithstanding what had been said to the contrary, was so universal, and so strong among persons of all opinions on other subjects, that he did not think he could have been persuaded, in opposition to that feeling, to vote for any measure at present to alter the system of currency now established in Scotland, even if his understanding had been convinced of the propriety of the change; while it is admitted on all hands, that no paramount necessity calls for any immediate interference. To a committee of inquiry, however, he could have no objection, which could tend only to bring out the truth; and he was sure the Scotch banks had no reason to shrink from any investigation of their system. This was not a fit time to enter into details—that would be the business of the committee. But he could not allow this opportunity to pass, without observing, that he did not join in the complaints of which, of late, so much had been heard, as to the grievances of Scotland. He was much more inclined to boast of the advantages she enjoys. He desired for himself, and he believed he might say on the part of every Scotch member of that House, to disclaim all feelings of jealousy of English influence or English interference, [hear, hear]. He had never entertained such a feeling at any time, and never felt less inclined to entertain it, than at present. If we consider what Scotland was before the Union, distracted and impoverished by civil broils and dissensions, and borne down by oppression of every form and degree, and trace its history onwards to the present time, instead of a catalogue of grievances arising from her connection with England, we find a long catalogue of benefits and blessings, to which no Scotchman, who allows himself to think coolly on the subject, can look back with any other feelings than those of unmingled gratitude and respect for the wisdom and the bounty of the British parliament.
Mr. Maurice Fitzgerald
said, he had not, on the one hand, been insensible to
1386
1387
l.
Sir C. Forbes
considered the motion unnecessary and uncalled for. The system as it existed was quite satisfactory. The hon. member for Montrose had alluded to several publications on the subject, but he considered it below the dignity of the House to spend half hours and hours in discussing the merits of anonymous publications, whether signed by Malachi Malagrowther, or any other fictitious name. He had read none of them, and therefore could not be swayed by any thing the authors advanced. He would not, however, vote against the motion. He approved so highly of the plain, downright, John Bull statements of the chancellor of the Exchequer on most occasions, that he would not now oppose him, though he disagreed with him as to the necessity of the measure.
Mr. Alderman Wood
considered that there was no necessity for inquiry with regard to Scotland. If the hon. baronet would change his sentiment, and vote with him, he would divide the House on the question. If an inquiry must be instituted, let it embrace the whole kingdom.
1388
Mr. T. Wilson
agreed, that where the system was admitted to be pure, it was unnecessary to institute an inquiry. It was not usual to call a man to the bar of the House for the purpose of inquiring into his good conduct. The argument of good conduct was the worst that could be made in support of the motion. The necessity of inquiry implied that something wrong was apprehended. Much injury had already been done to the English banks by the measures of the government; and the inquiry might inflict the same on the Scotch. It was, if he might use so homely an illustration, tantamount to giving a dog a bad name.
The motion was agreed to.
WESTMINSTER ABBEY.
Mr. Hume
rose, to make a motion to the House relative to the money taken by the dean and chapter of Westminster from the public, for admission to view the Monuments in Westminster abbey. He was induced to make the motion, in consequence of an item in the estimates, for a sum of money to the dean and chapter for cleaning those monuments. He understood, the annual revenue of that establishment amounted to 20,000
l.
1389
Mr. Secretary Peel
did not rise to oppose the motion, as he thought it fair that the House should be in possession of the information asked for. The hon. member, however, was in error, if he supposed that the dean and chapter of Westminster had any rights different from those of other deans and chapters. The House he believed, had no power to compel them to admit strangers to the abbey. He was also wrong in supposing that the fees for the admission of visitors were of recent origin. They had existed from very early periods, and instances might be found in the Record-office, of their being granted by patent; though, since the Restoration they had been granted during pleasure. In 1613, a patent was granted, which he had seen, to sir E. Phipps, sir R. Miller, and others, to collect the fees for shewing the monuments to visitors. At present the fees were divided among the minor canons and the choir. The amount of the income of the minor canons, who were obliged to attend about four months in the year, was about one hundred pounds per annum, and of this they drew about seventy pounds from the fees. The admission fee had been diminished, and was not at present more than was necessary to protect the monuments. The abbey was now opened three times a day to every body when divine service was performed; it was opened without any charge, at all seasonable times, to artists; and the admission fee had been
1390
s.
s.
d.
l.
l.
l.
l.
Mr. Hobhouse
said, that when he was at Westminster school, Poets' corner and the aisle of the abbey, the only portion of the abbey which was viewed with interest, except by a person who might come to gaze about London for a few days, were open to the public. He thought the preferable mode would be, to have the abbey open, as it formerly was, to the public, and to appoint a guardian, whose duty it would be, to preserve the monuments from injury.
Mr. W. Smith
thought, that as the public had paid considerable sums to the dean and chapter for permission to erect those monuments, upon which a large sum of public money had been expended, they ought to be open for inspection.
Mr. Peel
said, it was a mistake to suppose, that the dean and chapter had received money for permission to erect the public monuments, although they occupied a considerable space in the abbey, for which individuals would pay.
Mr. Baring
said, that if the rights contended for by the dean and chapter were pushed to their extent, they might as well shut up the abbey against the entrance of persons for the purpose of divine worship, contrary to the privilege which prevailed in every catholic country.
Mr. Alderman Wood
said, that he knew an instance in which a member of that House, wearied with a dull committee, had gone to the Abbey and heard a good sermon, for which he paid nothing; but after it was over, he was asked for money to see the monuments. This, however, he refused, and there was no power to enforce it.
1391
The motion was agreed to.
CRUEL TREATMENT OF CATTLE
Mr. R. Martin
having moved, that the bill be read a second time,
The Solicitor-General
objected to the bill, as being too general and indefinite in its enactments.
Mr. R. Martin
defended the principle of the bill, and maintained the general accuracy of the statements he had made on a former occasion, as to the instances of cruelty practised on several animals, and what he had said of the cruelty practised in Oxfordshire towards a bull. It was true that the tongue had been torn out of the animal while alive; but it was not sent round on a plate, but on a piece of paper. The other cases of cruelty he had mentioned were also substantially correct. The case of the flaying of a dog alive was told him by a highly respectable magistrate. He thought he should have great reason to complain of the attorney-general, if he opposed the present bill; for it was in substance a copy of one which, on a former occasion, bad been corrected and approved of by that learned gentleman. His object was, to place that faithful animal, the dog, on the same footing of protection with other domestic animals.
Mr. Alderman Wood
said, he could not support the present bill, and thought he had reason to complain of the hon. member far having deserted his post the other evening when the flogging of men was under discussion. He trusted that when that question should next be agitated, the hon. member would favour the House with his attendance, and that he would not, in the mean time, expend all his sympathy upon dogs and cats, but reserve some portion of it for his own species.
Mr. George Lamb
did not mean to charge the hon. member for Galway with venal motives; but he really thought the only person likely to be benefited by the reward to informers, was the hon. gentleman himself. He would oppose the bill, unless he could see that they were about to legislate upon some fixed principle, rather than upon isolated instances.
Mr. Lockhart
approved of the principle of the bill, which had received the sanction of the legislature already, under the hon. member's auspices; but objected to any such extension of its principle as was intended by the present measure.
1392
Mr. Trant
opposed the bill, and moved, that it be read a second time this day six months.
Mr. Warre
, although he had been a decided supporter of the other measures of the hon. member for Galway, could not give his vote for the present bill. He thought that as much had been done as the subject required, and that the hon. member ought to be satisfied without pressing other bills, for the protection of animals, on the consideration of parliament.
The amendment was agreed to, and the second reading put off for six months.
HOUSE OF LORDS.
Friday, March 17, 1826.
SCOTCH BANKS—SMALL—NOTE CURRENCY OF SCOTLAND AND IRELAND.]
The Earl of Liverpool
rose to move for a select committee, to inquire into the state of the circulation of Promissory Notes under 5
l.
Earl Grosvenor
thought the proposed inquiry could now be of no service. His majesty's government, before they had announced any intention of interfering with the system, ought to have been fully informed; and he supposed that they must have had sufficient information. Why, therefore, was there now to be as elect committee appointed to inquire into the subject? He believed that all this originated in the fears excited in the minds of ministers by a celebrated personage, no other than Malachi Malagrowther; but he did not think it wise to yield to those fears, or to enter into any discussion upon a subject on which full information had been obtained. Indeed, he thought the discussion should have been left to Bradwardine Waverley, from whose hands Malagrowther seemed to have received a full and satisfactory reply. His lordship then repeated his former arguments with respect to a summary remedy for compelling the payment of small notes, and thereby giving to the poor, for whose benefit these alterations were professed to be made, real and effectual security.
The Earl of Liverpool
thought the objections of the noble earl to the appointment of a committee most extraordinary. At the commencement of the session, it
1393
The Earl of Aberdeen
said, that an experiment was about to be made for which he saw no necessity. The people of Scotland had made no complaint, and had suffered nothing from their Banking system. If they had suffered, or had complained, then it might have been proper to Institute an inquiry. There was, on the contrary, a universal sentiment prevailing in Scotland against any alteration. He had not heard what was to be the object of the inquiry, nor any good reason for instituting it. If it was deemed expedient to revert to the state of things that had existed before the Bank Restriction act, would it not be the wisest way to wait until the experiment was first tried in England? But, if an opposite system had prevailed so long, and with such good effect in Scotland, he saw no cause why it should be disturbed. Under the present system the people of Scotland had prospered. He did not say that the whole of that prosperity had been caused by the banking system, but it had been cotemporaneous with it. If their lordships looked back for a century, they would find Scotland in a state of barbarism and disorder, and they would find at present, to use a strong phrase of a noble lord near him, that the people of Scotland were the best-conditioned people in Europe. He did not suppose this had been produced by their having one-pound notes; but the people were contented with them, and without some good reason he did not think it necessary to make any alteration. The experiment about to be tried for
1394
Lord Melville
said, his noble friend was under a mistake if he supposed that any measure was to be immediately introduced. The committee had, in fact, been appointed, and his noble friend should have made his objections on that motion. The question before their lordships was, to refer the petitions to that committee, and his noble friend could not surely object to that. There were many individuals who were totally unacquainted with the Scotch system of banking; and by having the committee, their lordships would have the details brought before them, and he better enabled to judge of the propriety of extending the measure to Scotland. His noble friend had hinted that the measure would be prejudicial if extended to Scotland; but he was sure the noble lords who were to compose the committee would not concur in recommending any measure which was not proper. It was quite a mistake to suppose that the committee would inquire into the stability of particular Scotch bankers; but it was due to those bankers to state, that they made no objection to a full inquiry into the effects of the system; in fact, they wished the inquiry to be made. At least, this good would result from the committee, that it would bring before their lordships, when the report should be made, all the details of the system, and satisfy them whether the measure should be adopted in Scotland or not.
The Earl of Limerick
said, that being connected with Ireland, he would not shrink from giving his opinion as to the effects of extending the proposed measure to that part of the kingdom. He agreed with the noble earl who spoke last but one, in regretting that a committee should be appointed to consider of the propriety of extending the measure to Scotland and Ireland, when in those countries it was not at all called for. Where there was no disease, no remedy was required. Their lordships should wait to see the
1395
The Earl of Lauderdale
would ask the noble earl opposite what was the professed object of this measure as applied to England, but to restore confidence? Now, he was at a loss to see how it could restore confidence; and hitherto it had only operated against restoring confidence. But how, such a measure could be thought necessary to restore confidence in Scotland was what neither the noble earl nor any other person could take upon himself to say. In Scotland a perfect confidence already existed. The people of that country were universally satisfied with their banking establishment at Edinburgh. There was but one dissentient, and he was a retired goldsmith, who moved an amendment to the proposed motion, at a very large meeting there, to the effect that every dependence was to be placed on the wisdom of his majesty's government. He could not help being curious to know who this gentleman was who entertained so singular an opinion. He learned that he was a retired goldsmith, and therefore supposed that the habits of his life had produced this extraordinary attachment to a currency consisting of that metal. It reminded him of a story told by Dr. Johnson, in one of his pamphlets. The doctor, in describing the effect, of habit on mankind, related an anecdote of a retired tallow-chandler, who, on selling his business, stipulated that he should be allowed to attend his old shop on melting-days. As to the appointment of a committee, it appeared
1396
The Earl of Liverpool
was surprised that the noble lord should persist in objecting to all inquiry. He now, it seemed, thought it would be more dignified in ministers to do that which he had often accused them of doing; namely, come forward with a measure, and force it down the throats of parliament. With respect to what a noble earl had said on the subject of Ireland, he was astonished at the nature of his argument; for, if it was true that Scotland had been benefited by her banking system, surely the same thing could not be said of Ireland. The noble earl could not say that that country had not suffered by the failure of banks; for certainly no country had suffered more in that way than Ireland.
1397
1398
The Earl of Lauderdale
said, that the noble earl supposed a case of necessity arising for applications from Scotland for commercial relief, either by Exchequer-bills or advances from the Bank. Now, if it were not for the noble earl's new mode of management, how would his argument stand? In a period of commercial distress, the people of Scotland had just as good a right to apply to government for relief as the people of England. Thus his whole argument arose out of his own practice. In the present period of distress he had granted relief, by guaranteeing the Bank [The earl of Liverpool, "No."] Well, then, if the noble earl had not guaranteed, he had induced the Bank to make advances; and upon that the essence of his argument was founded. The people of Scotland must, of course, come to the Bank of England for gold. If the bankers in Scotland possessed Bank of England notes, they had only the same fight to call for payment as the bankers of France had; and that was all that they wanted. As to the banks of Scotland leaning on the Bank of England, there was no such leaning, and no occasion for it; but they must come to the Bank of England for gold as long as the noble lord chose to allow that body to possess exclusive privileges.
The Duke of Athol
deprecated partial discussion, and thought their lordships ought to defer their observations until they had the report of the committee.
Lord Clifden
approved of the measure, and thanked ministers for getting rid of the small notes. No idea could be formed of the misery of the people of Ireland when the country banks failed in the years 1819 and 1820. In those years nine Irish country banks broke; and one in Dublin. It was of great importance to prevent those country banks from springing up again. There were now established in Ireland new banks, consisting of numerous wealthy individuals, which he hoped would be found to work well. For his own part, he felt an extreme horror of one-pound notes; and thought it must cause distressing sensations in every feeling mind, to reflect on the great sacrifice of human life which these notes had occasioned.
1399
"The Earl of Carnarvon
could not see any insuperable obstacle to the establishing, of chartered banks within a limited distance of the metropolis. It did not appear that there had been any offer of compensation made to the Bank of England to induce it to relinquish this portion of its privileges; and no one could suppose that the Bank would gratuitously make the country a present of this boon. The present proceeding was a most extraordinary one: for after applying this measure to England, without having made any inquiry as to its expediency, it was now proposed to lump Scotland and Ireland together, and to inquire whether it would be expedient to extend it to those countries. Besides, was it a proper season for agitating this question, when credit was in a ticklish state, and confidence in a great degree destroyed? Instead of disturbing the public mind by this alarming proposition, it would have been more politic to have had recourse to some healing expedients. He conceived it would have been much better that this inquiry should have been conducted before a committee of the whole House; for when he saw that the committee selected for this investigation consisted of nearly the same persons who constituted the committee in 1819, he was afraid there was little probability that the paper system would have A fair chance before such judges, as he bad no doubt that these Midases would resolve to extract bullion blossoms from Caledonian thistles. Why the House should be called upon to alter the currency of Scotland, when no human being had complained that that currency did not work well in practice, he could not conceive. At any rate, the committee ought not to have been a select one, but a committee of the whole House.
Lord Ellenborough
agreed in thinking that it would have been better to have referred this measure to a committee of the whole House. Had that been done, the consequence must have been the abandonment of it at least for one year. But the whole proceeding struck him as a most extraordinary one; for their lordships had, in a few days, without any inquiry, determined upon the adoption of this measure for England, and now it was proposed to inquire how far it might be advisable to extend if to Scotland and Ireland; when, in point of fact, unless it was extended to these two countries, it must be wholly ineffectual for England. There-
1400
The motion was then agreed to.
HOUSE OF COMMONS.
Friday, March 17, 1826.
MISCELLANEOUS SERVICES—CIVIL
The House having resolved itself into a committee of supply, Mr. Herries moved, "That 200,000
l.
Mr. Hume
said, that the estimate for the present year was on the same extravagant scale as those for the preceding years. In his opinion, the rate of expense was unnecessarily large, nor was the country in a condition to bear so enormous a charge as that of half a million annually for the expenses of her and bassadors abroad. From the year 1818 to the present moment, the exorbitant charge for the pay and expenses of our diplomatic department had been progressively increasing. In 1824, there had been a vote for the service of our embassies to the amount of 320,178
l.
l.
l.
l.
l.
l.
l.
l.
l.
l.
1401
l.
l.
l.
l.
l.
1402
l.
l.
l.
l.
l.
l.
l.
l.
l.
l.
l.
l.
l.
l.
l.
l.
l.
l.
l.
1403
l.
Mr. Secretary Canning
said, he would endeavour to follow the hon. member, not, indeed, through all the items which he had gone into with such laborious accuracy, but through the prominent objections which he had made to the estimates before the House. He would confess that the hon. member had made his different objections with perfect candour and fairness, and he would meet him in a similar spirit. He must also confess, that he felt no little surprise that the hon. member should be so entirely dissatisfied with the present consular system; for it might be considered as a child of his own, an offspring of his particular fancy. When he (Mr. Canning) came last into office, he found that the opinion of the House had been taken upon the subject of the system to be pursued, in relation to our ministers abroad. Whether the opinion had been expressed in a formal vote, or given in a way which only conveyed the sense of the House, he was not quite sure, but he found that he had no discretion to exercise, for it had been determined, that the whole system relative to our consuls should be done away, and that they should be put upon a totally different footing. The new principle was, that fees should be entirely abolished, and that salaries should be substituted, to the extent of affording a remuneration for their loss. He begged leave to state, that his own individual opinion did not concur in this arrangement. But. he found the point already settled, and his business was only to carry it into execution. Had the point been left to his judgment, or could his opinions have had any influence upon the question, he should have expressed an opinion that there were many cases in which it would be better to remunerate for services by fees, than by salary. But government had only to follow a prescribed principle; namely, that all private charges were abolished, and remuneratory salaries were to be granted in their stead. With respect to settling this arrangement, he had attended to the subject himself; and of all the difficult jobs he had ever undertaken this was the most difficult. He had to hear the private cases of individuals, and, what was most painful, he had to settle how much this man's income had been abridged, how much the other man had sacrificed and these points ascertained,
1404
l.
l.
l.
l.
l.
l.
l.
l.
l.
l.
1405
l.
l.
1406
l.
l.
l.
l.
l.
l.
l.
1407
l.
l.
1408
l.
Mr. Baring
objected to the principle upon which government now appointed consuls, prohibiting them from engaging in trade, and allowing them fixed salaries for discharging the specific duties assigned to them. He preferred the old system of such appointments, whereby the principal merchant of a trading port, such as Amsterdam, was the consul. Such an individual was much better qualified to sustain the necessary state and hospitality of a consul, not a merchant, and with a salary of perhaps 600
l.
Mr. Canning
said, that at Rotterdam and one other place, our consuls were eminent merchants; because they bad been so previously to their being appointed, and it was not thought proper to extend the general principle which government had found themselves obliged to lay down, to those individuals. Before he sat down, he would inform the House, that our ambassador at Paris, lord Granville, actually expended at least double his salary out of his private fortune.
Mr. Ellice
agreed that it would have been unwise to make the selection of consuls from amongst the mercantile body originally; but he thought that in future merchants might be better calculated than others to discharge the duties of consuls, especially when under the control of ambassadors.
Mr. Hume
again adverted to the repairs of the ambassador's house at Paris, and said that the sum expended for that purpose was an instance of shameful extravagance. He understood that the hotel was fitted up in as splendid a style as any house in London. [Mr. Canning said, "Very well."] It was not very well, but very ill. He could see no end of the extravagance. He thought some of the young persons who were in the suite of the ambassadors, and were learning the science, might do the duty of consul-
1409
The resolution was agreed to.
Mr. Wilmot Horton
then rose to move the Colonial Civil Estimates. He trusted that there were none of them which could meet with serious objection. It would be seen that a decrease had taken place of 16,000
l.
1410
l.
l.
Mr. Hume
expressed the high gratification which he had received from the statement just made by the lion, secretary. He was quite satisfied that, if the same prudent line of policy was persevered in for a few years, the country would be entirely relieved from the charge made for the civil establishment of these colonies. As long as this country consented to pay for them, it could not be expected that any diminution would take place. It was not consistent with human nature to expect that such would be the case. He considered the whole sum to be pure waste, and yet he saw no reason why the hand of retrenchment should not be applied to them in a gradual, but effectual manner.
The resolutions were agreed to.
INDEX
TO VOL. XIV.
NEW SERIES.
INDEX TO DEBATES IN THE HOUSE OF LORDS.
A
Abolition of Slavery, 1139, 1343
Address on the King's Speech, on Opening the Session, 1
B
Bank Advances on Goods, 866
Bank Charter Amendment Bill, 450, 556, 866
Banking System in Scotland, 864, 1392
C
Catholic Question, 1200
Clerk Assistant, 102, 125
Corn Laws, 555, 865, 915, 1075, 1202, 1345
Cowper, Mr. 102, 125
Currency, State of the, 132
I
Ireland, State of, 128
Ireland, Poor Laws in, 407
Ireland, State of the Church Establishment in the South of, 1205
K
King's Speech on Opening the Session, 1
P
Poor Laws in Ireland, 407
Promissory Notes Bill, 1347
R
Roman Catholic Question, 1200
S
Scotch Banking System, 864, 1392
Slavery, Abolition of, 1139, 1343
State of the Currency, 132
State of the Church Establishment in Ireland, 1205
State of Ireland, 128
U
Usury Laws, 1373
INDEX TO DEBATES IN THE HOUSE OF COMMONS.
A
Abolition of Slavery, 918, 968, 1076
Address on the King's Speech at the Opening of the Session, 22, 91
Army Estimates, 1082, 1119, 1192, 1284
B
Bank of England Balances, 158
Bank of England Deposits Bill, 1198
Bank Charter, 165, 245, 368, 1258
Bear-baiting and Dog-fighting Bill, 647
Bribery and Corruption at Elections, 1003, 1365
Brogden, Mr. 90
Bubble Act, 416
C
Cattle Ill-treatment Bill, 653, 1139
Church Rates in Ireland, 423
Commercial Distress, 698, 920
Commissioners of Bankrupts, 1371
Contempt of Court, Commitments for, 11, 78
Corn Laws, 157, 1000, 1113, 1210
Country Bankers Notes, 126, 358
Country Banks that have become Bankrupts, 145
Criminal Laws, Consolidation of, 1214
Currency, 358, 1112
D
Debtor and Creditor Arrangement Bill, 877
Dog-Fighting Bill, 647
E
Education in Ireland, 1175
Election Laws in Ireland, 127
Elections, Bribery and Corruption at, 1003, 1365
Emigration, 1360
Exchequer Bills, 416, 928, 1259
F
Financial State of the Country, 1305
Flogging in the Army, 1292, 1370
Jamaica Slaves' Trials, 1007
Joint Stock Companies, 644
I
Ireland, Election Laws in, 127
Ireland, Church Rates in, 423
Ireland, Tolls and Customs at Fairs and Markets in, 439
Ireland, Education in, 1175
Ireland, Local Jurisdictions in, 1246
Ireland, Non-Resident Burgesses in, 1247
Ireland, Episcopal Unions in, 1253
J
Juries, Members exempted from serving on, 568, 642
K
Kenrick, Mr., Conduct of, 364, 500, 566, 657
King's Speech on Opening the Session, 22, 91
M
Mexican Mining Company, 644
Mutiny Bill, 1292, 1370
N
Navigation Act, 359
Navy Estimates, 520, 678
O
Ordnance Estimates, 1131
P
Private Bills Committees, 1254
Privilege of Members to be exempted from serving on Juries, 568, 642
Promissory Notes Bill, 165, 245, 368, 537, 570, 572, 859, 878, 963, 1184
S
Scotch Representation, 1208
Scotch Banking System, 1358, 1379
Silk Trade, 152, 356, 733
Slavery, Abolition of, 918, 968, 1076
Slaves at Jamaica, Trials of, 1007
South America, Treaties with, 359, 689, 809
Spain, Evacuation of by the French, 1283
Stamping of Small Country Notes, 126
Steam Vessels in Scotland, 1244
T
Tobacco and Snuff, Duties on, 696
Tolls and Customs at Fairs and Market Towns in Ireland, 439
Treaties with South America, 359, 689
U
Usury Laws Repeal Bill, 409
W
Westminster Abbey, 1388
Writers to India, Appointment of, 1374
INDEX OF NAMES—HOUSE OF LORDS.
A
Aberdeen, Earl of, 1393
Atholl, Duke of, 917, 1398
B
Bath and Wells, Bishop of (Dr. Law), 1169
Bathurst, Earl, 1140, 1169, 1174, 1345
Bexley, Lord, 492
Blesington, Earl of, 562
C
Calthorpe, Lord, 1143
Carnarvon, Earl of, 20 142, 1203, 1348, 1399
Chester, Bishop of (Dr. Blomfield), 1344
Clifden, Viscount, 131, 1398
D
Darnley, Earl of, 131, 407, 408, 915, 1200, 1204, 1352
Dudley and Ward, Viscount, 1160
E
Eldon, Earl of,
See
Ellenborough, Lord, 130, 131, 496, 565, 1149, 1344, 1399
F
Ferns, Bishop of, 1175, 1206
G
Gloucester, H. R. H. the Duke of, 1154
Grosvenor, Earl, 11, 1343, 1392
H
Harrowby, Earl of, 1206
K
King, Lord, 7, 555, 556, 694, 865, 915, 916, 917, 1075, 1202, 1204, 1345
Kingston, Earl of, 1205
L
Lansdown, Marquis of, 14, 128, 132, 480, 560, 565, 866, 867, 872, 874, 876, 1167, 1373
Lauderdale, Earl of, 21, 142, 466, 563, 866, 873, 875, 1358, 1395, 1398
Limerick, Earl of, 407, 466, 562, 866, 918, 1346, 1394
Liverpool, Earl of, 15, 102, 125, 128, 131, 140, 450, 498, 558, 561, 562, 564, 866, 870, 872, 876, 916, 1152, 1201, 1347, 1353, 1374, 1392, 1396
Lord Chancellor Eldon, 1155
M
Melville, Lord, 1394
R
Redesdale, Lord, 1159
Roseberg, Earl of, 561, 864
S
Sheffield, Lord, 6
St. Vincent, Lord, 1171
Suffield, Lord, 1174
T
Teynham, Lord, 14
V
Verulam, Earl of, 4
INDEX OF NAMES—HOUSE OF COMMONS.
A
Abercromby, Hon. James, 434, 502, 508, 567, 569, 608, 899, 905, 1187, 1208, 1242, 1358, 1372
Althorp, Viscount, 425, 861, 956, 1107, 1110
Ashurst, W. H. 655
Attorney-General (Sir John Copley), 600, 647, 656, 670, 967, 1038, 1182
Attwood, Mathias, 299, 396, 405, 910, 913, 958, 961, 965
B
Bankes, W. J. 999, 1372
Baring, Sir Thomas, 1377
Baring, Alexander, 76, 153, 157, 167, 193, 342, 630, 710, 809, 950, 1113, 1199, 1274, 1339, 1359, 1390, 1408
Benett, John, 358, 410, 642, 910, 1001, 1109, 1114, 1211
Bernal, Ralph, 1111, 1134, 1210, 1287
Blake, Sir Francis, 392, 422, 993, 1186
Bourne, Right Hon. Sturges, 365, 505, 1372
Bradshaw, Captain, 1377
Bridges, Alderman, 392, 731, 1243
Bright, Henry, 409, 418, 523, 538, 719, 877, 1342
Brogden, James, 90
Brougham, Henry, 34, 349, 366, 633, 927, 982, 996, 1000, 1061, 1076, 1082, 1110
Browne, Denis, 442
Brydges, Sir John, 359, 447, 650, 1297
Burdett, Sir Francis, 919, 924, 1111, 1113, 1116
Butterworth, Joseph, 655, 657
Buxton, Thomas Fowell, 968, 983, 999, 1032, 1082
C
Calcraft, John, 75, 126, 127, 147, 152, 163, 164, 167, 365, 368, 414, 545, 573, 859, 862, 895, 898, 910, 912, 1000, 1001, 1115, 1185, 1211, 1341
Calvert, Nicholson, 1116, 1240, 1366, 1367
Canning, Right Hon. George, 68, 318, 353, 509, 524, 599, 724, 851, 907, 911, 927, 973, 983, 1066, 1284, 1287, 1403, 1408
Chancellor of the Exchequer (Rt. Hon. Frederick Robinson), 45, 76, 146, 151, 152, 161, 162, 163, 166, 168, 354, 355, 384, 522, 537, 554, 573, 599, 600, 706, 860, 861, 881, 893, 896, 901, 902, 907, 914, 915, 920, 922, 923, 924, 929, 941, 965, 967, 1113, 1125, 1135, 1189, 1278, 1305, 1340, 1360, 1379
Chetwynd, Sir George, 1243
Clerke, Sir George, 526, 535, 1209
Cockburn, Sir George, 682, 688
Colborne, N. R. 650
Cole, Sir C. 684, 688, 877
Copley, Sir John,
See
Cripps, Joseph, 65, 543
Croker, John Wilson, 684
Curteis, E. 732
Curwen, John Christian, 92
D
Daly, James, 448
Davenport, D. 155, 409, 830, 1110
Davies, Colonel, 412, 522, 597, 686, 1082, 1115, 1120, 1126, 1139, 1367
Denison, W. J. 364, 510
Denman, Thomas, 87, 364, 367, 501, 502, 505, 658, 677, 967, 1007, 1071
Dickenson, William, 846
Douglas, Keith, 992, 1382
Drummond, Home, 906, 1359, 1385
Dundas, Rt. Hon. William, 1358, 1384
E
East, Sir Hyde, 995
Egerton, W. 850
Ellice, Edward, 55, 156, 162, 164, 356, 372, 403, 537, 569, 597, 628, 733, 858, 922, 928, 930, 963, 1190, 1341, 1359
Estcourt, T. G. 1243
Evans, William, 1111, 1288
F
Fergusson, Sir Roland, 362, 1109, 1137, 1297, 1304
Fitzgerald, Maurice, 446, 1385
Folkestone, Viscount, 165, 167, 216, 570, 660, 632
Forbes, Sir Charles, 92, 1341, 1387
Fremantle, W. H. 102
G
Gascoyne, Isaac, 1122
Gooch, Thomas, 1002
Gordon, R. 164, 244, 358, 411, 998
Gordon, Captain, 686, 1341, 1383
Goulbourn, Rt. Hon. Henry, 426, 439, 1060, 1176, 1248, 1254
Grant, Rt. Hon. Charles, 268, 410, 421, 831, 1377
Grattan, James, 436
Green, Thomas, 28
Grenfell, Pascoe, 76, 146, 158, 349, 573, 626, 897, 1006
Grossett, J. R. 993
Gurney, Hudson, 86, 148, 316, 354, 356, 365, 371, 406, 542, 862, 897, 898, 903, 912, 967, 1130, 1189, 1191, 1259, 1359, 1366, 1381
H
Hamilton, Lord Archibald, 572, 905, 908
Hardinge, Sir H. 1121, 1124, 1131, 1136, 1258
Heathcote, G. 361
Heron, Sir Robert, 1109, 1185
Herries, J. C. 126, 422, 685, 895, 1271, 1285
Heygate, Alderman, 276, 393, 395, 903, 913, 965, 1190
Hobhouse, John Cam, 416, 644, 686, 863, 884, 1110, 1137, 1139, 1188, 1192, 1367, 1370, 1390
Holford, G. P. 568
Hope, Sir A. 1120, 1124, 1125
Horton, Wilmot, 989, 1022, 1076, 1080, 1081, 1125, 1127, 1286, 1288, 1289, 1290, 1360, 1409
Hume, Joseph, 57, 98, 145, 161, 361, 363, 394, 417, 419, 420, 520, 523, 525, 529, 580, 642, 678, 688, 862, 864, 878, 892, 897, 902, 904, 906, 907, 909, 914, 930, 993, 1000, 1081, 1091, 1106, 1112, 1113, 1120, 1121, 1122, 1123, 1124, 1125, 1127, 1128, 1129, 1136, 1137, 1179, 1187, 1191, 1209, 1210, 1211, 1245, 1258, 1281, 1284, 1288, 1291, 1292, 1336, 1364, 1370, 1376, 1388, 1400, 1408, 1410
Huskisson, Rt. Hon. William, 83, 155, 157, 229, 357, 359, 361, 362, 400, 539, 638, 763, 829, 861, 886, 892, 909, 910, 1198, 1342
Hutchinson, C. H. 93, 128, 422, 436, 523, 1253, 1286
I
Inglis, Sir R. H. 428, 439, 610
J
Johnson, Colonel, 571, 903, 1139, 1303, 1359
Irving, John, 410, 418, 420, 629, 900
K
Knatchbull, Sir E. 1116
L
Lamb, Hon. William, 365, 502
Lamb, Hon. George, 1391
Lauderdale, Earl,
Lethbridge, Sir Thomas, 96, 156, 358, 1001
Lewis, Frankland, 1177, 1246
Leycester, Ralph, 256, 890
Littleton, E. J. 1254
Lockhart, J. I. 95, 878, 1184, 1241, 1366, 1390
Long, Rt. Hon. Sir Charles, 1130
Lord Advocate of Scotland, 1244
Lushington, Dr. 1044
M
Maberly, John, 66, 146, 355, 417, 420, 576, 860, 863, 892, 893, 899, 1259, 1334
Maberly, W. L. 220
Manning, William, 722, 901, 924
Mansfield, John, 911
Martin, J. 912, 1185, 1251
Martin, Richard, 127, 438, 448, 449, 647, 651, 653, 906, 1391
Milton, Lord, 908, 1001, 1089
Monck, J. B. 162, 164, 412, 437, 633, 864, 891, 898, 903, 905, 914, 1122
Monteith, Henry, 722
Moore, Peter, 848, 961
N
Newport, Sir John, 274, 423, 438, 443, 447, 631, 901, 1175, 1247, 1253, 1339
O
Ommaney, Sir F. 678
Onslow, Mr. Serjeant, 409
P
Palmer, C. F. 525, 850, 965, 1369
Palmerston, Viscount, 918, 1084, 1101, 1106, 1120, 1123, 1128, 1129, 1131, 1195, 1303
Parnell, Sir Henry, 128, 390, 431, 442, 1245
Pearse, John, 67, 151, 160, 162, 340, 398, 405, 419, 717, 731, 862, 897, 900, 922, 1367
Peel, Rt. Hon. Robert, 286, 356, 364, 366, 415, 435, 443, 501, 502, 504, 568, 569, 570, 626, 651, 657, 898, 919, 985, 1107, 1112, 1138, 1178, 1189, 1211, 1213, 1244, 1389, 1390
Philips, George, 988, 1001
Phillimore, Dr. 1379
Plunkett, Rt. Hon. W. C. 432, 436, 444, 1177, 1250
R
Rice, Spring, 439, 910, 1126, 1250
Rickford, W. 915
Ridley, Sir M. W. 85, 910, 966, 1115, 1239
Robertson, Alexander, 40, 150, 153, 161, 164, 360, 363, 387, 610, 683, 731, 889, 1000, 1100, 1186
Robinson, Rt. Hon. Frederick.
See
Russell, Lord John, 366, 682, 858, 1003, 1007, 1124, 1213, 1214, 1369
S
Scarlett, James, 504, 507, 568,987
Sebright, Sir John, 1242
Smith, John, 63, 146, 262, 413, 714, 963, 1295
Smith, William, 399, 649, 984, 1057, 1303, 1367, 1390
Solicitor General (Sir C. Wetherell) 1052, 1371, 1390
Speaker, The (Rt. Hon. C. M. Sutton) 500, 501, 502, 567, 642
Stuart-Wortley, J. 507
Stuart-Wortley, J. jun. 22
Sumner, Holme, 721, 1210
Sutton, Rt. Hon. C. M.
See
Sykes, Daniel, 410, 883, 913, 992, 1243, 1289
T
Thompson, Alderman, 253, 863
Tierney, Rt. Hon. George, 151, 547, 923, 927, 930
Townshend, General, 1139, 1304
Trant, W. H. 1379, 1392
Tremaine, J. H. 686
V
Vivian, Sir H. 920, 1121
W
Warre, J. A. 847, 904, 1366, 1392
Wetherell, Sir Charles.
See
Whitmore, W. 91, 574, 959
Williams, John, 570, 755
Wilson, Sir Robert, 1059, 1114, 1127, 1241, 1283, 1301, 1371
Wilson, Thomas, 63, 259, 381, 387, 405, 421, 626, 904, 920, 921, 957, 993, 1116, 1388
Wilson, Carus, 914, 1186, 1241, 1289
Wodehouse, E. 406, 412
Wood, Colonel, 503, 650, 1120
Wood, Alderman Matthew, 89, 395, 1387, 1390 1391
Wrottesley, Sir John, 148, 245, 541, 860, 910
Wynn, C. W. W. 93, 413, 511, 567, 569, 643, 1006, 1365, 1367, 1372,1374
Wyvill, M. 685
Y
Yorke, Sir Joseph, 1122, 1136
END OF VOL. XIV.